Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC  (Read 28870 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #160 on: December 11, 2013, 03:20:34 am »
Cue "Lucas, I am your father" scene, with my deepest voice!  :wave

Fair enough, mate. Added bonus, I picked up a new English expression. That was worth a bit of tedium for everyone, wouldn't you say?  ;D

I would have thought you'd heard "You're wrong" enough to know what it meant by now :D :P
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #161 on: December 11, 2013, 08:22:17 am »
Except what about shutting down service, goal keeper communication, 50-50 air ball and Skrtel's ill-timed clearance?  None of these were done very well and also led to the goal.  Why privilege Lucas' fuck up over all the others? Explain how at each step we made errors, but we should point to Lucas only.  If we should point, we should be more comprehensive. 

I think its probably because his was a mistake in possession under no real pressure, all he others are a mistake without the ball.

not to prolong the rather silly debate, just to answer your question. that's why I think I would focus on him.

Offline poseidon

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #162 on: December 11, 2013, 09:12:33 am »
I am quite surprised this thread has gone this way.

This isn't quite the spirit of the roundtable discussion thread. I thought the roundtable was to provide objective and careful analysis of the game, to learn from each other's viewpoints and improve our understanding of (a) our team and (b) the game of football in general. I think we should stick to these principles - at least for this thread.

Now, onto my own views about the WH game, boiled down to a single proposition: WH didn't have the players to hurt us. We looked good for the most part as a result of that, and if I were a WH fan I would be embarrassed at the way rings were run around them all day long (except for the slight wobble after the og). Not to take away anything from that performance, but perspective is important as stronger and better tests will come up in the next fortnight and it will be interesting to see whether our players hold up their levels of performance. This will give us teh opportunity to see where we stand in comparison with the teams that are, on paper at least, stronger than us. On the basis of the WH games and the 14 games that preceded it this season, I'd say our level is comfortably above mid-table, and *should* be worthy of a top 4 place. What i'm not sure about is whether we have enough talent, quality and depth, to get favourable results against the top teams.

Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #163 on: December 11, 2013, 09:18:23 am »
I think its probably because his was a mistake in possession under no real pressure, all he others are a mistake without the ball.

not to prolong the rather silly debate, just to answer your question. that's why I think I would focus on him.

I think even if the same things happened the same way, 9/10 Skrtel will clear that anyway.

In a weird way it ended up being a positive. Responses like the one we had, when we went to 2-1, are the kind that build championship winning character.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #164 on: December 11, 2013, 09:45:09 am »
I think even if the same things happened the same way, 9/10 Skrtel will clear that anyway.

In a weird way it ended up being a positive. Responses like the one we had, when we went to 2-1, are the kind that build championship winning character.

and overall it was an almost faultless display of control and pressure.

was very impressed with the match. Thought we were better than 4-1 in fact.

last two games very promising. Hull aberration aside we are a good team now.

the injuries now begin to ask a few different questions, and I'm interested to see what answers they provide.

what team Rodgers sends out at Tottenham and then subsequently how they fair will go a long way to telling us where we really are.

4-1 win at home is only positive in my opinion. no negatives.


Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #165 on: December 11, 2013, 01:36:13 pm »
I would have thought you'd heard "You're wrong" enough to know what it meant by now :D :P

I thought I'd said it myself enough times to certainly expect others to know what it means, as well.

On general topic, what did you make of the number of blocked shots we had vs WHU? Was it just outstanding heroics (plus a bit of luck) by WHU, or was it our selection of shots to take and execution? A bit of both?

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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #166 on: December 11, 2013, 04:52:14 pm »
Because when he received it he was unmarked. Maiga ran towards him from about 10-12 yards away. That's more than enough space to be considered "under no pressure" at that level.

I do want to add my "two cents" here. 

I agree with PoP on this, except there are times when having too much time leads to greater indecision.  What is important is that initial assessment of how quickly one needs to play.  For a DM, it is usually bang-bang, so when one finds themselves with more time than expected, they may, at times, have less of a barometer and repetition for longer decisions than playmakers like Allen or Coutinho. 

In terms of Allen, he plays in much tighter spaces usually and an error for him looks much different than for Lucas (imo).  Mostly, this contribution acknowledges the point made PoP about the spatial differences between no pressure and pressure, but I wanted to add positional characteristics to the mix.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 04:59:14 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #167 on: December 11, 2013, 05:09:05 pm »
I do want to add my "two cents" here. 

I agree with PoP on this, except there are times when having too much time leads to greater indecision.  What is important is that initial assessment of how quickly one needs to play.  For a DM, it is usually bang-bang, so when one finds themselves with more time than expected, they may, at times, have less of a barometer and repetition for longer decisions than playmakers like Allen or Coutinho. 



Absolutely correct. That's when you can tell a decisive thinking player from an indecisive instinctive player. An instinctive player with too much time often can't function with a multitude of options and time to make them. A thinking player will choose an option, regardless, and then move to the next action, no matter how many options they see. They will make ANY choice, as it's better than making NO choice.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #168 on: December 11, 2013, 06:23:17 pm »
Absolutely correct. That's when you can tell a decisive thinking player from an indecisive instinctive player. An instinctive player with too much time often can't function with a multitude of options and time to make them. A thinking player will choose an option, regardless, and then move to the next action, no matter how many options they see. They will make ANY choice, as it's better than making NO choice.

Good advice for life in general I'd say.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #169 on: December 11, 2013, 06:26:37 pm »
Absolutely correct. That's when you can tell a decisive thinking player from an indecisive instinctive player. An instinctive player with too much time often can't function with a multitude of options and time to make them. A thinking player will choose an option, regardless, and then move to the next action, no matter how many options they see. They will make ANY choice, as it's better than making NO choice.

This a huge point that I do not see discussed as often as I would like:  decision-making styles (decisive and instinctive). 

Also, there is a recent article on this in SB nation about the myth of Joe Allen's passing (and I do read here a bit with some posters banging on about Joe Allen not playing forward quickly enough).  As Rogers presumably sees it, Joe is a technician whose job is to hold onto possession and decide when we should be moving forward with the ball.  In this role, he has to be decisive with the ball as it is his living (never losing it).  If he were to steadily cough up the ball more, he might find his 5'7 frame out of the premiership as there are several players with his physical abilities without the ball. 

And after thinking about your comment for a brief time, I wonder if ball winners like Lucas or a Mascherano type use their decisive elements in the game for timing tackles, testing the idea if they give away possession, they can decisively win it back.  Very interesting Pop or BoH (I like PoP better as  BoH reminds me of BoA --- and American Banks are not on my Christmas list).
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #170 on: December 11, 2013, 06:36:55 pm »
Absolutely correct. That's when you can tell a decisive thinking player from an indecisive instinctive player. An instinctive player with too much time often can't function with a multitude of options and time to make them. A thinking player will choose an option, regardless, and then move to the next action, no matter how many options they see. They will make ANY choice, as it's better than making NO choice.

I think of Lucas as a thinking player. I hope everyone agrees.

What happened in that case was that Lucas was taking a couple of touches to improve the angle or to allow the possible pass targets to move to more favorable positions. When the targets are already in position, Lucas (and Allen and Gerrard) do not dilly-dally. In this case, I think Lucas just, basically, effed up. He underestimated Maiga (whom I am certain he had seen) and over-estimated his own capacity effectively to shield the ball. We know that, at times, he is like Didi and Alonso in that he'll almost invite the attempted toe-poke or barge and earn a free-kick or get the opposition out of shape. In this case, that little 'trick' failed; in fact, he almost fell without any actual contact, so little did he anticipate the timing of the toe-poke.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #171 on: December 11, 2013, 06:44:17 pm »
I think of Lucas as a thinking player. I hope everyone agrees.

What happened in that case was that Lucas was taking a couple of touches to improve the angle or to allow the possible pass targets to move to more favorable positions. When the targets are already in position, Lucas (and Allen and Gerrard) do not dilly-dally. In this case, I think Lucas just, basically, effed up. He underestimated Maiga (whom I am certain he had seen) and over-estimated his own capacity effectively to shield the ball. We know that, at times, he is like Didi and Alonso in that he'll almost invite the attempted toe-poke or barge and earn a free-kick or get the opposition out of shape. In this case, that little 'trick' failed; in fact, he almost fell without any actual contact, so little did he anticipate the timing of the toe-poke.

I don't think he saw him at all. The fundamental breakdown in technique I referred to was a little check over the shoulder before you receive. He didn't do that, and he paid the price. He also had very viable options around him, so there was no "better" positions for them to be in - he had to play what was on, *not* what would be on 5 seconds from then. On top of that, he stood still with the ball instead of moving it at pace away from where he received. So everything he did was "fundamentally wrong" in that action, and he lost possession. This, in my opinion, isn't what LED to the goal directly, but it started the chain of events.

And no, he doesn't make that mistake often, but it was such a careless mistake to make at that level, in that area of the field, in that moment of the game. Gifting possession to the opposition like that is probably anathema to what Rodgers wants from his central midfielders.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 06:58:53 pm by BalesofHay »
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #172 on: December 11, 2013, 06:57:01 pm »
I don't think he saw him at all. The fundamental breakdown in technique I referred to was a little check over the shoulder before you receive. He didn't do that, and he paid the price. He also had very viable options around him, so there was no "better" positions for them to be in - he had to play what was on, what would be on 5 seconds from then. On top of that, he stood still with the ball instead of moving it at pace away from where he received. So everything he did was "fundamentally wrong" in that action, and he lost possession. This, in my opinion, isn't what LED to the goal directly, but it started the chain of events.

And no, he doesn't make that mistake often, but it was such a careless mistake to make at that level, in that area of the field, in that moment of the game. Gifting possession to the opposition like that is probably anathema to what Rodgers wants from his central midfielders.


Persuasive in every way.  Your last sentence should be the final word on the subject moving forward:
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #173 on: December 11, 2013, 07:13:05 pm »
I don't think he saw him at all. The fundamental breakdown in technique I referred to was a little check over the shoulder before you receive. He didn't do that, and he paid the price. He also had very viable options around him, so there was no "better" positions for them to be in - he had to play what was on, *not* what would be on 5 seconds from then. On top of that, he stood still with the ball instead of moving it at pace away from where he received. So everything he did was "fundamentally wrong" in that action, and he lost possession. This, in my opinion, isn't what LED to the goal directly, but it started the chain of events.

And no, he doesn't make that mistake often, but it was such a careless mistake to make at that level, in that area of the field, in that moment of the game. Gifting possession to the opposition like that is probably anathema to what Rodgers wants from his central midfielders.

If you're sure he didn't actually do that check (which he does religiously), then I'll take your word for it. I cannot tell 100% from the T.V. footage. I also think your description of what he did as "stood still" is an exaggeration.

http://fm.lfc.vn/west-ham-full-match-w15/

If we're going to get this granular (as we should, at times) then, to me, it's no good to not be 100% accurate.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 07:41:14 pm by GrkStav »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #174 on: December 11, 2013, 07:17:08 pm »
If you're sure he didn't actually do that check (which he does religiously), then I'll take your word for it. I cannot tell 100% from the T.V. footage. I also think your description of what he did as "stood still" is an exaggeration.

If we're going to get this granular (as we should, at times) then, to me, it's no good to not be 100% accurate.

It's not granular. It's coaching. It's one of the first things you teach a player when you teach them how to receive a ball. Hence the "that was such a basic mistake" part. :)
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #175 on: December 11, 2013, 07:44:10 pm »
It's not granular. It's coaching. It's one of the first things you teach a player when you teach them how to receive a ball. Hence the "that was such a basic mistake" part. :)

The granular was in reference to what I was doing. Sorry.

I rewatched it.

Given how you described the Allen incident, and how you described the Lucas incident, I must conclude that it's me, since I found your description of the Lucas incident "harsh" (but not inaccurate) and that of the Allen incident "lenient" (but not inaccurate). Ergo, it's my lying eyes, after all.  :wave
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #176 on: December 11, 2013, 08:00:43 pm »
The granular was in reference to what I was doing. Sorry.

I rewatched it.

Given how you described the Allen incident, and how you described the Lucas incident, I must conclude that it's me, since I found your description of the Lucas incident "harsh" (but not inaccurate) and that of the Allen incident "lenient" (but not inaccurate). Ergo, it's my lying eyes, after all.  :wave

I don't really ascribe "value" to what I'm looking at though. It just is as it is. The issue for me is "was it preventable, how was it preventable, and is it likely to happen again?" which, to me, is why Johnson's part in the goal itself is more worthy of comment than Lucas'
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Offline Col

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #177 on: December 11, 2013, 10:58:48 pm »
What's odd about the Lucas thing is that as mentioned by GrkStav, Lucas checks his shoulder more than pretty much anyone.

Look out for it next time we play - he has rather an emphatic movement of the head before asking for the ball. It's in stark contrast to someone like Henderson, who is content to play back into defence and take the easy option, when turning out to face the play would be preferable.

Lucas as a sub is not quite as effective as Lucas the starter - he's not as good as Didi Hamann was, for example, at joining a game and making the tempo suit him. It's still a rare mistake for him to make, as his awareness is one of his major strong points, but a mistake it was, and a notable one due to the lack of pressure on him when he initially looked to receive the ball.

Hopefully, it's a fluke. He's not been anywhere near his best since his injury 18 months ago, but he's still a decent player and a very useful option to have. He came in to the game late, had a brain fart, lost the ball, and it led to us giving up a goal. The good thing about Lucas is that he's an intelligent player... I don't imagine it happening again any time soon.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #178 on: December 11, 2013, 11:04:28 pm »
What's odd about the Lucas thing is that as mentioned by GrkStav, Lucas checks his shoulder more than pretty much anyone.

Look out for it next time we play - he has rather an emphatic movement of the head before asking for the ball. It's in stark contrast to someone like Henderson, who is content to play back into defence and take the easy option, when turning out to face the play would be preferable.

Lucas as a sub is not quite as effective as Lucas the starter - he's not as good as Didi Hamann was, for example, at joining a game and making the tempo suit him. It's still a rare mistake for him to make, as his awareness is one of his major strong points, but a mistake it was, and a notable one due to the lack of pressure on him when he initially looked to receive the ball.

Hopefully, it's a fluke. He's not been anywhere near his best since his injury 18 months ago, but he's still a decent player and a very useful option to have. He came in to the game late, had a brain fart, lost the ball, and it led to us giving up a goal. The good thing about Lucas is that he's an intelligent player... I don't imagine it happening again any time soon.

It was stark in its unusualness.

But as you say, maybe he hadn't got into the tempo of the game.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2013, 11:07:36 pm »
It was stark in its unusualness.

But as you say, maybe he hadn't got into the tempo of the game.

It may surprise some to read this from me, but that 'excuse' (or even explanation) does not apply in this case.

Lucas was fully into the tempo of the game by then. In fact, he had been quite excellent and 'on top of things' earlier, during our "batter them" period.
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