Author Topic: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC  (Read 31594 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« on: November 10, 2013, 07:55:28 am »
A very bad day at the office for Fulham or a very good day at the office for us?
Did the return to a back four have an impact?
Has Johnson's return reminded us of his value, has he been unsung in done ways?
Can anyone teach Henderson to shoot?
Yep.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 01:47:35 pm »
first off I enjoyed it

it had been set up as a no win scenario though - we were expected to win and win comfortably - we did - Fulham did make it easy for us with the type of performance that provided space and time but you still have to deliver and the lads did that.

in terms of johnson his talent going forward has never really been an issue its at the other end that the question marks have always been raised and there was no real examination of that so a reminder of his strengths certainly but once the game was won a great opportunity to blood young hopefuls I'd really like to have seen Mcloughlin have a go I think he has a real chance of a career with us but I've been wrong many times before

Henderson is improving all the time as his confidence grows- we've seen players develop over the years I dont really understand where the impatience comes from - he continues to give us everything he has, he's tried too hard at times, it ok pushing him but as he grows as a man he'll take on more and more responsibility and that will include shooting/goal scoring - he's improved tactically and technically and mentally - back in them there old days players had a couple of years in the stiffs to learn their trade and the clubs style Henderson is doing it under the full glare of Sky and people are surprised when everything doesn't click - Downing by all accounts is playing well for West  Ham without the expectation of a Liverpool shirt on his back - the lads come through  a storm - good times ahead if he keeps improving as he has

If Agger and Skrtel can communicate and lead then they could be as good as any combo in the league but they need to maintain the aggression and drive - thats one excellent thing Toure and Sahko have brought - genuine competition and Rodgers looks to be managing that situation very well

The blues should be an excellent test, my blue nose brother says they haven't been playing that well in all honesty, no doubt they'll raise their game it would be a great lift for us to turn them over and potentially go top of the league depending what happens today - although the period up to the new year looks really interesting dont want to get ahead of ourselves - coming full circle to expectations - one game at  a  time, maintain the belief under pressure,  beat the blues lets see where we are then



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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 03:03:57 pm »
An easier test than Arsenal, to put it mildly. But three of our very best players were restored to the starting line up too and that must have made a difference. Johnson is not only a very fine defender (as he proves time and again) but a constant torment to the opposition when we go forward. Agger brings pace to our back line - that assured first touch almost always becoming the launching pad for a team thrusting forwards. Then there was Coutinho who might have a claim to being the most exciting player to watch in the Premier League were it not for the obvious candidate.

Coutinho had an easy time of it, sure, but here was a powerful reminder of what we've missed since his injury. Does anyone have quite his mastery of the ball - whether he's under pressure or carrying it at pace? It's like watching Jari Litmanen pumped full of amphetamines. His ability to change his mind twice, three, four times while dangling a leg over the ball was - especially in the first 45 - a big reason why we attacked like we did. Opponents are drawn towards him when this happens, but very few fancy actually putting in a tackle. Meanwhile broad acres are opening up everywhere else. Liverpool filled them with brilliant movement on Saturday.

Gerrard and Lucas were magnificent again in the centre and probably the former was our Man of the Match. Henderson put in his best performance of the season and there were signs that he's making passes more quickly and with heavier weight. Invariably it was he who was making those off the ball runs to lengthen and widen the pitch - especially in the second half when we took more care to rest on the ball than sustain the onslaught.

Only Sturridge failed to fire, but he'll be back with a barnstorming appearance v Everton for the simple reason that he loves the big games best. One thing though. Sturridge needs to value the scrappy goals. The game's best cross (from Johnson in the second half) was put right onto the striker's sweet spot between a defence trying to turn and a goalie tied to his line. All it needed was a centre forward prepared to take a gamble. Daniel loves gambling when he has the ball. He needs to be as audacious when he hasn't.

Terrific times though. I haven't enjoyed watching Liverpool play as much since....since Kenny's team in '90.
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 04:54:48 pm »
Bump
Yep.

Offline canadianscraggledog

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 05:10:08 pm »
The 4-3-1-2 is IMHO the best formation to use with our best XI out there.

It gives us 3 CM's in the middle with Coutinho as the CAM and SAS in their favoured central positions with licenses to roam and the width is provided with overlapping fullbacks.

Everyone played well with Suarez, Johnson, Gerrard and Hendo the standouts and Lucas quietly being very solid. Fulham were very poor but we played to our potential and could have scored 8
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 05:11:06 pm »
Johnson was massive for us, which is nice to see but also worrying, cause as soon as we loose him there is hardly a replacement. Same goes for most of the positions.

But as it is I cannot complain. We are in a strong 2nd position, and playing some excellent football. If we make it to January in this vein top 4 will be ours to loose.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2013, 05:11:34 pm »
The 4-3-1-2 is IMHO the best formation to use with our best XI out there.

It gives us 3 CM's in the middle with Coutinho as the CAM and SAS in their favoured central positions with licenses to roam and the width is provided with overlapping fullbacks.

Everyone played well with Suarez, Johnson, Gerrard and Hendo the standouts and Lucas quietly being very solid. Fulham were very poor but we played to our potential and could have scored 8

We played a flat 4-4-2
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Offline us_col

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2013, 05:19:48 pm »
One of the many things that struck me yesterday was how much the players seemed to be enjoying themselves.

Not much of an analysis but its significant.

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2013, 05:39:49 pm »
This was a proper response game. Fulham looked defeated the moment they took the pitch but we did to them what any title contender would. Dominate every facet of the game, put it away by halftime and don't relent in the second half.

In a season where some of our top four/title competition is struggling to score consistently, it works in our favor that not only do we have a strike duo that gives us a chance to snatch goals out of thin air but that we can pile on goals against teams we should be beating, who knows how much of a factor GD could play at the end of the season.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2013, 05:44:03 pm »
We played a flat 4-4-2
I thought from the average position we looked more like a 4-1-3-2.

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Offline The Mule

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 06:02:33 pm »
An easier test than Arsenal, to put it mildly. But three of our very best players were restored to the starting line up too and that must have made a difference. Johnson is not only a very fine defender (as he proves time and again) but a constant torment to the opposition when we go forward. Agger brings pace to our back line - that assured first touch almost always becoming the launching pad for a team thrusting forwards. Then there was Coutinho who might have a claim to being the most exciting player to watch in the Premier League were it not for the obvious candidate.

Coutinho had an easy time of it, sure, but here was a powerful reminder of what we've missed since his injury. Does anyone have quite his mastery of the ball - whether he's under pressure or carrying it at pace? It's like watching Jari Litmanen pumped full of amphetamines. His ability to change his mind twice, three, four times while dangling a leg over the ball was - especially in the first 45 - a big reason why we attacked like we did. Opponents are drawn towards him when this happens, but very few fancy actually putting in a tackle. Meanwhile broad acres are opening up everywhere else. Liverpool filled them with brilliant movement on Saturday.

Gerrard and Lucas were magnificent again in the centre and probably the former was our Man of the Match. Henderson put in his best performance of the season and there were signs that he's making passes more quickly and with heavier weight. Invariably it was he who was making those off the ball runs to lengthen and widen the pitch - especially in the second half when we took more care to rest on the ball than sustain the onslaught.

Only Sturridge failed to fire, but he'll be back with a barnstorming appearance v Everton for the simple reason that he loves the big games best. One thing though. Sturridge needs to value the scrappy goals. The game's best cross (from Johnson in the second half) was put right onto the striker's sweet spot between a defence trying to turn and a goalie tied to his line. All it needed was a centre forward prepared to take a gamble. Daniel loves gambling when he has the ball. He needs to be as audacious when he hasn't.

Terrific times though. I haven't enjoyed watching Liverpool play as much since....since Kenny's team in '90.

Agree about Johnson but I don't know if Agger really brings "pace" to our defense. Finesse, skill, composure - yes. But I don't think he's faster than either of the lads he replaced.

On our performance in general, it was just so satisfying and enjoyable. Long may it continue. I would really love it to all come together when we play a genuine top four rival though. No better opportunity than against the bitters.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 06:15:51 pm »
Agree about Johnson but I don't know if Agger really brings "pace" to our defense. Finesse, skill, composure - yes. But I don't think he's faster than either of the lads he replaced.

I was talking specifically about that first gorgeous touch he usually does - the one that allows him to accelerate into the second. I reckon it buys the team an extra couple of seconds. That's pace.
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Offline The Mule

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 07:04:11 pm »
I was talking specifically about that first gorgeous touch he usually does - the one that allows him to accelerate into the second. I reckon it buys the team an extra couple of seconds. That's pace.

Fair enough. Touch does make a huge difference. Seems we're quibbling over terminology here but essentially agree. I think its phaseofplay who was discussing this in the past ("acceleration" vs "pace").
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2013, 07:08:20 pm »
We played a flat 4-4-2

Didn't look a flat 442 , thought we pushed Glen and Ciss into their half for most of the game while Lucas set back in front of Agger and Skrtel with our front 3 very close together ? with Gerrard and Henderson dominating the middle ??????

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2013, 07:10:56 pm »
I thought from the average position we looked more like a 4-1-3-2.


it looks like 2 5 3 to me :D with 2 defenders and 5mid as Johnson is rarely at the back. Fullham had no width and we dominated with off the ball pressure which was great to see. All around great performance, yet we could had more goals as our finishing was actually poor counting our chances.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2013, 07:13:47 pm »
We got the big bonus this weekend also of all the teams around us getting spanked. As long as someone puts the cheeky manure back to mid table soon, things look rosy. For want of a negative thing to provide devils advocacy, a number of our players started buggering around in front of goal. Suarez, Sturridge and probably Hendo were guilty of that. They all could have knocked one in if not messing around. The last of these should have scoring boots. The man of the match went to Suarez, but for me it was Gerrard all day. Imagine if he was a new purchase and he had passed and assisted so precisely like that. The media would be on fire about him. He was sublime. So much exciting play in the team right now. We are surely the luckiest supporters to have so many visual feasts in our season right now.
Why is Jol not using Bent?. I would have dropped the Oh so relaxed Berbatov for him at half time. We might have got more of a game then.
I thought the switch to possession play was a good move for the last third of the game.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 07:20:07 pm by markedasred »
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2013, 07:29:58 pm »
I thought we looke d bit lopsided yesterday

maybe we saw Richardson as a serious weak link so played gerarrd and Henderson as well as Johnson on the right lol

still doesn't explain the same issue v arsenal though
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2013, 07:36:47 pm »
I thought we looke d bit lopsided yesterday

maybe we saw Richardson as a serious weak link so played gerarrd and Henderson as well as Johnson on the right lol

still doesn't explain the same issue v arsenal though
Johnson is always a massive outlet when he plays in fairness. Enrique more of one than Cissokho too so no surprise the amount of times we went down the right. Johnson always gets the ball into and around the box, which is pretty handy when you've got Mr Most Touches in The Box Suarez. Just the combination creates so many chances, far more than we can score.

Also allows Coutinho to come inside, edge of the area. Chances galore.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 07:40:40 pm by Bakez0151 »

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2013, 07:38:34 pm »
We played a flat 4-4-2

We did? Was it not more of a lop-sided 442 or 4222 with Coutinho almost never sticking to his wide left position (before the switcheroo at the end) and Henderson being much more likely to be found closer to the right sideline then the imaginary central vertical line?
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2013, 07:46:40 pm »
Don't understand any negativity in that performance whatsoever - ok maybe Cissokho :P

We should have scored more yes, Suarez should have had 3/4 , Sturridge should have scored too but overall 3pts is 3pts whether its Fulham Chelsea, Arsenal or Man U.

Great to see Agger back, Johnson showed what we've missed Henderson played well and Gerrard was outstanding, that young Brazilian lad wasn't bad either.

Allen got a 30 min run out ahead of the Derby and one in which we will go top if we win  :scarf


 
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2013, 07:57:23 pm »
A combination of our being above average and Fulham being dire.

A clean sheet and three points after a long time. That was a blast, wasn't it? And not only that but we actually saw Gerrard being taken off for once after we had gone 3 or 4 up, allowing others a run. Only weakness was Cissokho. Agger gave us impetus from the back-- he already knows what to do with the ball before he gets it allowing him to create passing angles with his first touch and Johnson the attacking the thrust down flank.

A good way to go into the international break.

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2013, 09:07:02 pm »
Excuse my pretentious self, but as I said earlier....

I like the fact we didn't win 7 or 8, nil. Which was on the cards.
I like the fact that we're not firing on all cylinders
I like the fact there is still more work to do with the team and squad
I like the fact that we are showing signs of progressions whilst not actually nailing it yet
I like the fact we have stretch in us
I like the fact Rodgers still has something to work with
I like the fact we're just not quite right yet
I like the fact we're sitting second with all the above to consider



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Offline BazC

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2013, 09:50:41 pm »
It was a great attacking performance, and the good thing is that we probably look like the best team in the league at the moment, when it comes to beating teams that we should be. As Juan Loco pointed out yesterday - we're set up to smash the lower league teams. And that's what will define our season I think - because every top team this year is losing points against lower league/mid table opposition quite readily.

We can hopefully take some serious momentum into the games against Spurs, Man City and Chelsea next month - if we play like yesterday, I'm sure we'll beat Hull, Norwich, West Ham and Cardiff.

The back 4 question's an interesting one. Before the game, I wondered if we should have done that anyway - sacrificing being a bit 'open' to the counter attack, if it meant getting bodies forward in attack. I didn't think Fulham had the quality to punish it, and it showed on the day. We basically played with 3 players back, with the 2 CBs and Lucas, with the rest of them getting forward well to support the front 3.

I'm not sure we'll see the same thing against Everton. They're far quicker at getting the ball forward, and they also have one of the best strikers in the league on the end of it. It's hard to change it around after a game like that, and I don't think Rodgers will unless it's forced.

Anyway, that was the first time this season (and apparently only 5th time ever), that Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge, Johnson, Gerrard have all started. We keep all of those fit and playing for the majority of the season, and there's going to be a lot more to come. I mean we smashed through Fulham with Coutinho still scraping off some rust and Sturridge having an off game. There was enough quality all around anyway. Can't wait to see them rip into teams some more. It's very entertaining football. And yesterday, for the first time this season really, we saw some brilliant one touch, incisive passing around the box. Just lacking a bit when it came to the final touch, but it was brilliant to watch. We'll see more of that if those players are playing week in week out as well.

Great weekend of results for us. 2 points off the top and a bunch of games against lower league opposition coming up.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2013, 09:54:17 pm »
Roll the clock back a couple of years and we would have been debating about how to beat teams that park the bus and hit us on the break. Now we are worried that we didn't score more........that's how much we have improved. We're not the finished article but if we can keep this up and strengthen further then we'll be right up there. Our owners may be wondering if it's time to spend to take us to the next level (time will tell).

Back to the match.

When our midfield doesn't have to track back then we have the players to score against the weaker teams. Gerrard pulled the strings and Henderson was all over the place looking for the ball.

Suarez is always a handful and will score at will if not marked closely.

Coutinho is brilliant if he doesn't have to worry about defending.

My MOTM was Skrtel simply because he looked mean and scored...........the MOTM could have gone to several players.

We look a much better team with Johnson playing.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2013, 10:06:18 pm »
We did? Was it not more of a lop-sided 442 or 4222 with Coutinho almost never sticking to his wide left position (before the switcheroo at the end) and Henderson being much more likely to be found closer to the right sideline then the imaginary central vertical line?

I meant "as opposed to a diamond midfield", sorry :)
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2013, 10:10:20 pm »
This seems like a hard game to really gauge our quality as we were up against such docile opposition.
We dominated with ease. Mainly due to Fulham's poor approach to the game. It wasn't due to their lack of physical defending so much as it was down to their demeanour. They looked mentally defeated from the start of the game.

Johnson made a big difference to our right side.
Coutinho looked very lively and dangerous.
The Agger and Skrtel partnership was barely tested so can't really comment on that, but only to say Skrtel took his goal well and looks a much improved defender since he cam back from his drop. He looks confident, hungry, and sharp.

Cissokho reminds me of Arbeloa. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing. He's steady, if predictable. Doesn't add much to our attack but then again he doesn't lose the ball too much either. Enrique is probably the opposite. Which one is best in our present setup is hard for me to comment on. But it was good to see Enrique back to provide competition for our LB spot.

Offline Jon2lfc

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2013, 10:13:58 pm »
I meant "as opposed to a diamond midfield", sorry :)
Looking at the flow of the game...

it seemed we were more set up in a 4-1-2-1-2

with Johnson and Cissokho pushing up when we attacked, and Lucas sitting right in front of the back 2.

SAS up top with Coutinho, Hendo and SG just behind.

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2013, 10:15:19 pm »
Excuse my pretentious self, but as I said earlier....

I like the fact we didn't win 7 or 8, nil. Which was on the cards.
I like the fact that we're not firing on all cylinders
I like the fact there is still more work to do with the team and squad
I like the fact that we are showing signs of progressions whilst not actually nailing it yet
I like the fact we have stretch in us
I like the fact Rodgers still has something to work with
I like the fact we're just not quite right yet
I like the fact we're sitting second with all the above to consider



Tactical accountants, mount your horses....

My thoughts exactly. We have so many people slitting their wrists over our deficiencies in the middle but are not looking at where we are in terms of Rodger's development of the team and where we are in the table.

We finished 7th last year. We almost lost our best player and we struggled to attract players without European football. Despite that, we have had a great start this season. We are not title challengers (yet) but people are talking like we should be. Brendan knows we need more, and I think that the issues will be fixed, though it may be too late for this season.

In the meantime, forget the Arsenal result, they have already thrown away that advantage today. In terms of yesterday, I think we could've played any formation and almost any line up and we would've won. This was because Fulham were poor, and more importantly, we are breaking the lower teams down quickly and taking our chances when they come. We have been ruthless in these games apart from the odd result.

Relentless is what Brendan thinks of our performance and I agree. The way to climb the league is by destroying the dross not worrying about the away day to Arsenal. That's how the Mancs have done it. Yes, we may come up short at somewhere at the Etihad but if Stevie & Lucas can help get us 25 wins from elsewhere then they have done their jobs.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2013, 10:16:19 pm »
Didn't look a flat 442 , thought we pushed Glen and Ciss into their half for most of the game while Lucas set back in front of Agger and Skrtel with our front 3 very close together ? with Gerrard and Henderson dominating the middle ??????

A flat 4-4-2 doesn't mean:

x----x----x----x
x----x----x----x
-----x----x----

It just means that roles of the wide midfielders on defence is to defend the wide areas with the fullbacks, and that both central midfielders will get behind the ball on transition, as opposed to a diamond midfield, where the two outside mids will be more central, and the attacking mid plays in the space behind the forwards. Formations are better known through their defensive shape than their attacking shape, where mobility is more important.
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Offline redintweed

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2013, 10:16:29 pm »
We did exactly what we should against a bottom team. Fulham are in trouble, no too ways about about it. Unless Jol can somehow coax some sort of massive U-turn out of that side, they are prime candidates to be playing in the Championship next year.

These sort of games have been our achilles heel for many a year now. We seem to get up against the leading teams and continually falter against the lesser lights. Rodgers does seem to be starting to put a bit of steel into us. We certainly seem to have more of a killer instinct. Many will laugh but I really think we have to thank Suarez for this. His hatred of losing, his determination and just plain sheer workrate has to be rubbing off on his teamates. Sturridge is a perfect example. He has always been known as lazy. His talent was never really in doubt, but his attitude was. He seems to have turned that around and Luis must be an influence there. Sure, Rodgers is doing his thing but in my experience in football, good and bad attitudes rub off on other players.


To the game and in all honesty, from about 3 or 4 minutes in I knew we were never going to lose. Fullham let us play our game and didn't really pressure us at all. We will not lose many games where opposition let us have time on the ball. We are just too potent up front. The midfield were much better than last week but having said that, the quality of the opposing midfield was chalk and cheese. Fulham were just never at the races. Stevie, Lucas and especially Hendo were all excellent. The defence was rarely tested and both fullbacks were allowed to canter up the flanks under hardly any pressure to track back. Suarez was, well, Suarez. He probably should have got 4 but he is inspirational.

All in all I don't think Rodgers will take all that much out of this game. We did what we were expected to do and did it in about 2nd or 3rd gear. I love the fact that we now have the ability to do this but next game will offer a much sterner test. The Bitters are playing OK and Martinez teams play quick passing, pressing football. That's something we struggled with against the Gunners.

Onwards and upwards though.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2013, 10:59:57 pm »
I freely admit im not a scholar of the game, just an observer.

That average position heat map wayoveranalysis thing was kinda bugging me, in that it looks more like several teams of 2 than any real conventional formation, per se. that's how it Rorschached to me, anyway. It might have been a butterfly im not sure.   ;D

Not just that "pairs" look to the thing.  I was struck by....it seemed there was two sets of plans, attacking and defending, and somehow Johnson was in both of them at the same time. Attacking he was extremely advanced and he paired with Henderson all day, usually ahead of him.  Meanwhile, in another sort of "unusual positioning" Lieva was often to be found playing CB dead centre between Skrtl and Agger as if in in a 3, if fast break defence was required and Johnson was unavailable.

as Lucas came back to the cb spot, Skrtl and Agger were very quick to move right out to the flanks to challenge runs and Hendo provided covering services from the right side of midfield and we never missed the rb for a second.

Im not even sure theres a name for what we are playing other than "cool " or "give it to luis in the end" or "we could play for fun because fulham were terrible" but anyway the whole thing just struck me as somehow slightly different than normal for no reason I could define. Im curious if there any basis of fact in that or that's just normal covering and i should know that by now. 

Great game whatever Fact!
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2013, 11:09:50 pm »
Heat maps are by their nature deceptive, and so are formations. As PoP said, it's more helpful to think of a team without the ball, in terms of formations and even then that doesn't really cover it. Maybe where you'd like to be at the split second where there's a midfield 50/50 ball. Coutinho is a less than stellar tracker back, so does he count as an LM in a 4 4 2? If a CM has to cover for him then maybe he's inadvertently made it a 4 2 3 1. Henderson covers 1.5 positions, so he disrupts any formation analysis, rather like Kuyt before him. As for Suarez, his work rate means you can't tie him down to a position. I imagine managers over the years patiently explaining to Suarez what they want him to do and where, and he's nodding and smiling, but internally, he's going, nutmeg, smash, terrorise, hassle, gimmethefuckingball.

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2013, 11:29:26 pm »
Johnson's average position on that diagram earlier is absolutely sensational! He is superb. Love him.

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2013, 11:30:23 pm »
I would have gone with 4-2-2-2 but that is just saying 4-4-2 in more detail. The one area of contention is Coutinho who played so central that he struggled to get back into position on the left wing in defence. Still it worked because I don't remember us being exposed at all really. But we couldn't give that much freedom on the left against a top team I don't think.
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2013, 11:39:08 pm »
Tactical accountant here, it was 4-4-2 as evidenced when Coutinho dropped wide left so we had two banks of four on defence. I may be wrong but I see formations as the basic defensive layout and broad team shape. In attack it's all chaos :D

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2013, 11:43:46 pm »
I would have gone with 4-2-2-2 but that is just saying 4-4-2 in more detail. The one area of contention is Coutinho who played so central that he struggled to get back into position on the left wing in defence. Still it worked because I don't remember us being exposed at all really. But we couldn't give that much freedom on the left against a top team I don't think.

Yep. Coutinho had a lot of freedom of movement. Henderson was fairly disciplined on the right though, practically hugging the touchline on his heatmaps. So it was more that famous English lopsided 4-4-2, only the free player was tucked in, rather than the displined player tucked in and the winger pulling wide, like it would have been in the 70's/80's. If we look at Squawka's stats for action areas, we can see that Coutinho spent most time in the middle of the field, but also spent a lot of time helping Cissokho out. Henderson is almost exclusively on the right, while Gerrard is clearly box to box - either up behind the forwards, or back with Lucas. Lucas was more of a central mid than a pure defensive mid too, while Skrtel moved out to the right a lot to cover for Johnson.

http://epl.squawka.com/liverpool-vs-fulham/09-11-2013/english-barclays-premier-league/matches
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2013, 11:46:47 pm »
...........The one area of contention is Coutinho who played so central that he struggled to get back into position on the left wing in defence. ............. But we couldn't give that much freedom on the left against a top team

I think that could be a problem and maybe as you indicated he may not be as effective against the top teams where defending is as important as attack. Brendan is probably working on that part of his game.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2013, 11:49:32 pm »
I thought Henderson worked great just in off the right channel, linking with forwards and with Johnson overlapping.

PoP, do you think that's a system that'll work well away or does it risk being too open?

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2013, 11:57:21 pm »
At the start of the game some moaner said out loudly 'where's he going?' as Suarez ran at three defenders, he might as well shouted out 'this is my first game of the season and I know fuck all' as Suarez beats all three despite it looking impossible but he's been  as he's been doing regularly. I've never seen such beautiful control of balance, unbelievable player but I couldn't take my eyes of Coutinho. He's got it. Beautiful to watch him create time and space, what a player he's going to be. Never once worried that we would concede. Great to have Johnstone and Agger back left the ground happy in the knowledge we're getting there and as Garstonite says in so many words, we're still not firing on full cylinders, loads of space for improvement, A real class midfielder at the top of their game would be costly but would would be an investment that would give us options and pay real dividends in the grand scheme of things. A good days work that.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2013, 11:58:46 pm »
I thought Henderson worked great just in off the right channel, linking with forwards and with Johnson overlapping.

PoP, do you think that's a system that'll work well away or does it risk being too open?

Although "Home" and "Away" DOES have an impact, it's mostly psychological rather than tactical, so I think if it works for our players, then it works wherever we play. The key is Henderson and his willingness to run and tackle and harry and harass. That allows Coutinho a bit more freedom on the other side. Johnson becomes the creative outlet on the right with his attacking runs, so the attack remains balanced, even if it is a bit unorthodox.
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