Author Topic: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?  (Read 10770 times)

Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« on: October 21, 2014, 09:23:14 pm »
GregCharrua started a thread, the other day, about Brendan and what tactics he should employ and it got me thinking. While I like to learn about the tactical side of the game myself, it seems that the tactical battle has become the be all and end all as far as commentators, pundits and more and more fans are concerned. Below is part of the post that I contributed on that thread. It was completely off topic but it's a discussion that I'd like to pursue. The gist of it is that the tactical approach of  a team is but a small factor in the overall outcome of a game but takes up an inordinate amount of the post match debate. I am hoping this topic can be discussed with a Liverpool slant but if the mods think this is more general than LFC please feel free to move.



I will be fifty years of age at my next birthday. I lived through a period of unprecedented success for  Liverpool Football Club without giving as much as a fleeting thought to tactics, at least to tactics as they are now viewed and dissected. The first time I really took note was when Kenny started to use Jan Molby as sweeper in a five man defence! Looking back at that, I still can't make up my mind if it's evidence that Kenny was ahead of his time or if it was the first acknowledgement that our side was no longer good enough to rely on our player's superior ability alone.

Since the advent of the premiership there has been a successful attempt to portray the tactical battle between two managers as the single biggest influence on the outcome of the game. This is a remarkable feat when we think about the incredible hyperbole that surrounds the standard of the players themselves. The respective team bosses are now portrayed as Chess Grand-Masters where every move is a pre-ordained response to the others various gambits. It reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes. But then a lot of the sensationalism around modern football evokes similar musings.

I am not trying to make out that tactics didn't exist back in the day, of course they did, they were just presented more in terms of footballing philosophies. I am trying to explain that their perceived influence on the game was somewhere behind the ability of the players themselves and the capacity of the manager to motivate them. I remain to be convinced this has greatly changed although i do acknowledge that the ability to extensively scout the opposition through TV/video etc as well as the increase in the number of substitutions has changed the landscape somewhat.

I was reminded the other night that Bill Shankly often said that anybody who needs to read a book about the game shouldn't be invoved in it. Now that was circa fifty years ago but it's food for thought.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 08:25:14 am by goalrushatgoodison »
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Offline Paragon

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 10:15:41 pm »
I think a lot of people forget the simple fact that the game is played by humans, and humans make mistakes. Some on here seem to think that football is an exact science; no chance!
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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 11:32:47 pm »
Read a book about football and statistics once, and apparently  86% of the outcome of matches is just random. Only the last 14% are down to controllable factors.


But to get back to the topic, the idea is probably that with modern coaching, players make less and less mistakes, and can be controlled like chess pieces on the pitch.
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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 11:38:40 pm »
I do not think the importance of tactics is overstated in the modern game. Quite the opposite.

I am sorry, this notion that because there are intangibles, unmeasurables, uncontrollables in football, knowledge of, and conversation about, the parts that are tangible, measurable and controllable are not important is far-fetched.

We can 'discuss' things like "heart" and "character" and "leadership" till the cows come home and still get nowhere.
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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 11:40:16 pm »
Read a book about football and statistics once, and apparently  86% of the outcome of matches is just random. Only the last 14% are down to controllable factors.
Hmmm, I'm skeptical as to how you can measure that.
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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 11:45:31 pm »
I think a lot of people forget the simple fact that the game is played by humans, and humans make mistakes. Some on here seem to think that football is an exact science; no chance!

Some managers seem to think it. Remember reading once that a certain manager picked his team based on their fitness statistics, for example.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2014, 11:45:57 pm »
Guess it depends on how much the individual believes in them, I mean look at Atletici winning La Liga and reaching CL final, they could easily have gone out in the group stages and limped to ~4th with a mediocre manager, or worse with Roy Hodgson.

West Ham did a number on us a few weeks back because Big Sam took Gerrard out of the game and noted our vulnerabilities despite bei a vastly inferior team
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Offline Gifted Right Foot

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 12:04:31 am »
No, but i think fans can go a bit overboard with it. 

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2014, 12:06:33 am »
We can 'discuss' things like "heart" and "character" and "leadership" till the cows come home and still get nowhere.

Funnily enough those seem to be the exact things we're missing.
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Offline macca007

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2014, 12:33:12 am »
Its worth reading pop's thread on how football is about space and time and how teams control that and exploit it. Players with talent and skill can help you in that but theres far more to do with tactics in gaining numerical advantage and overloading areas of the pitch. Theres comments by guardiola recently where he says he hates tiki taka and it was false that his teams played like that as barcas prime objective would be to create the numerical advantage on the opposite side of the pitch and switch to that and score.

Offline decky

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 12:34:55 am »
I think in the premier league tactics can go out the window very quickly in a lot of games due to the pace and physical nature of them. You have to fight first then play after. In europe though tactics are everything, especially in the CL

Offline telekon

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 12:50:57 am »
Tactics is one thing. Training players, developing players, teaching players, and man managing players are also part of a managers job. I think you've got a point that "tactics" is perhaps used to freely, but the game has evolved a lot in the last 20 years (since Liverpool was dominating).

I agree with you fully thought that managers get far too much credit than players do in general. And far too much shit as well, when it goes the other way.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 12:55:40 am »
Its worth reading pop's thread on how football is about space and time and how teams control that and exploit it. Players with talent and skill can help you in that but theres far more to do with tactics in gaining numerical advantage and overloading areas of the pitch. Theres comments by guardiola recently where he says he hates tiki taka and it was false that his teams played like that as barcas prime objective would be to create the numerical advantage on the opposite side of the pitch and switch to that and score.

Link?

Offline telekon

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 01:01:30 am »
Read a book about football and statistics once, and apparently  86% of the outcome of matches is just random. Only the last 14% are down to controllable factors..

It's funny, I have a home built theory that resembles that a lot. I have absolutely no training in football whatsoever - I'm more or less clueless. But from watching so much football, it just seem so random. Split second decisions and literally millimeters decide thngs in football.

In an infinite universe there will be an infinite amount of outcomes* if you put the exect same two teams against each other, on the same pitch on the same day.


* In the restrictions of the rules of the game, e.g. it being played for 90 minutes etc.
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 01:43:21 am »
GregCharrua started a thread, the other day, about Brendan and what tactics he should employ and it got me thinking. While I like to learn about the tactical side of the game myself, it seems that the tactical battle has become the be all and end all as far as commentators, pundits and more and more fans are concerned. Below is part of the post that I contributed on that thread. It was completely off topic but it's a discussion that I'd like to pursue. The gist of it is that the tactical approach of  a team is but a small factor in the overall outcome of a game but takes up an inordinate amount of the post match debate. I am hoping this topic can be discussed with a Liverpool slant but if the mods think this is more general than LFC please feel free to move.



I will be fifty years of age at my next birthday. I lived through a period of unprecedented success for  Liverpool Football Club without giving as much as a fleeting thought to tactics, at least to tactics as they are now viewed and dissected. The first time I really took note was when Kenny started to use Jan Molby as sweeper in a five man defence! Looking back at that, I still can't make up my mind if it's evidence that Kenny was ahead of his time or if it was the first acknowledgement that our side was no longer good enough to rely on our player's superior ability alone.

Since the advent of the premiership there has been a successful attempt to portray the tactical battle between two managers as the single biggest influence on the outcome of the game. This is a remarkable feat when we think about the incredible hyperbole that surrounds the standard of the players themselves. The respective team bosses are now portrayed as Chess Grand-Masters where every move is a pre-ordained response to the others various gambits. It reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes. But then a lot of the sensationalism around modern football evokes similar musings.

I am not trying to make out that tactics didn't exist back in the day, of course they did, they were just presented more in terms of footballing philosophies. I am trying to explain that their perceived influence on the game was somewhere behind the ability of the players themselves and the capacity of the manager to motivate them. I remain to be convinced this has greatly changed although i do acknowledge that the ability to extensively scout the opposition through TV/video etc as well as the increase in the number of substitutions has changed the landscape somewhat.

I was reminded the other night that Bill Shankly often said that anybody who needs to read a book about the game shouldn't be involved in it. Now that was circa fifty years ago but it's food for thought.

From a coaching perspective, there are four core components of the game:

1) Technical (passing, receiving, heading, shooting, shielding, and goalkeeping areas)
2) Tactical (making decisions, speed of play, using technical advantages, covering up technical weaknesses, game within the game)
3) Psychological (information processing, putting emotion aside, playing within yourself - limits, visual cues, rewards of repetition)
4) Physical (preparing the body, athleticism, VO2 max endurance, positional demands, team needs)

Tactics or decision patterns are a huge part of the game.  For the ordinary supporter who might not never come near the academic side of the sport or get a coaching badge, this word might get confused with only 11 vs 11 game dynamics.  It might seem unnecessarily complicated, or be privileged above other areas of the game, which at times both can be. 

Nevertheless, using LFC's team last year as a guide, we were a damn hard team to play against if the opponent could not get the ball. 

First, we made centrebacks make a shitload of decisions (running behind, in between gaps, and sliding across the face of the back four).  This opened up boatloads of space for the top of our diamond (offensive midfielder), and also provided unmarked spaces for the opposite side midfielder (non-ball side) to make penetrating runs through the back four. 

Second, we had speed on the flanks and found ways to expose marking backs (which did two things, made them defend more than they wanted, and also made them think twice about getting forward so much).  This leads to exploiting the decisions that defenders had to make between Sturridge and Suarez. 

Third, we did a good job with set plays (corners, free-kicks, and exploiting near post spaces using Gerrard as weapon).

Fourth, we were very dangerous on the counter.  We attacked with pace.  The tactic was to get the ball and go.  We see this in the Everton match as well as the remnants of it a few days ago against QPR (Sterling).  How and where we attack involve instinct, in the game tactical awareness (which Rodgers is so high on), and preparation. 

In fact, you might say there are layers of tactics.  There is implementing the tactics of the game plan (exploiting lineup tendencies, system demands - we need to keep one midfielder home when playing this team, and accounting for dangerous players on the opponent to take away what they do well).  And there are on-going tactics that change with the conditions, score, referee decisions, and minute to minute information feedback loop. 

This evolves as players have off days, and the best preparation can be shredded almost immediately (just Arsenal players during their game at Anfield last year).  Sometimes there are no answers and you have to adapt.  For Liverpool, my understanding of Rodgers' training method is that players are equipped to sensitive to subtle changes in the game and are ready to adapt methods (pressing, passing, exploiting space or attacking formations) at any time.  This is the reading of the game.

For supporters, this is not an easy task to see how players adapt to the initial tactics.   We tend to see this more transparently when the gaffer makes a change in formation, or a substitution which is designed to change the game.  And he has done this consistently.  Our most recent games, it has been easy to see (Allen and Coutinho at QPR or taking off Manquillo against West Ham --- led to Sterling's goal).  Then, there are the tactics of going after vulnerable players on the opposing team (psychology - yellow/red cards) (technically - few defenders can handle Sterling's pace on the flanks) or (game situations where when the score changes so do the decisions that need to be made). 

This last one cannot be overstated enough.  Our tactics when leading this year need some work.  We have been allowing far too many goals in the last 10 minutes of games this year.  Now, one might say this is a conditioning (physical) issue.  Or another might say it is in our heads (psychological) as one of the team's emotional cores (Suarez) is gone.  I am not so sure about these.  For me, it comes down to our decisions and our players not adapting to the tactics of urgent pressure, reduced time, and adjusting to the opposing team's present risk.  Whether it is the Lovren-Migs communication (Ludogorets) or last minute restart goals (Vargas/Austin-Vargas header), LFC are failing to account for risk.  This is a pattern, emanating from decisions and need to be addressed.

Goalrush, respectfully, now there could be another issue here other than tactics are overrated.  It may be there are too few people here with the ability to explain, translate, and spend the time necessary to write about the importance of tactics in the modern game or during previous eras.  I think this possibility highlights the importance of engaging some of the older members here in RAWK, not only to engage them  as knowledgeable and valuable resources, but also to make this translation a matter of tradition the club never loses in the world of casino capitalism football.       
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:15:17 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 02:08:32 am »
Funnily enough those seem to be the exact things we're missing.

And when we start winning, we shall declare, after the fact, that we have finally developed or showed them.

Btw, could the OP kindly change the title of his first post in the thread?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 02:15:28 am by GrkStav »
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Offline ericthered10

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 02:12:49 am »
Pretty sure those aren't phases of play, those are the four aspects to be addressed by the coach when educating a player, the elements of a holistic coaching approach. Phases of play would be attack, defend, transition to attack, transition to defend.

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 03:14:44 am »
Pretty sure those aren't phases of play, those are the four aspects to be addressed by the coach when educating a player, the elements of a holistic coaching approach. Phases of play would be attack, defend, transition to attack, transition to defend.

Components is a better word.  Four core areas, as you say, phases being more specific to attack/defend/transition. 
Thanks for the edit.

Tactics

    Creating and exploiting 1 v 1's
    Creating and exploiting 2v1's
    Exploiting numbers up
    Playing fast with speed
    Attacking width, depth, transition
    Principals of Attack
    Counter Attack or Slow Build up
    Change of point of attack
    Possession/Attack in each 3rd
    Finishing and Goal Scoring
    Restarts, Dead Balls
    Group Defending
    Team Defending
    Defensive compression
    Defensive double teaming and trapping.
    Defensive Fundamental Tactics
    Win ball, prevent turn
    Win ball on 1/2 turn, proper
    Defensive stance, jockey and delay
    Defense in defensive 3rd middle 3rd
    Defense in attacking 3rd
    High Pressure, low Pressure

Techniques

    First touch
    Fast Footwork
    Beating Opponents 1 v 1
    Dribbling for Speed
    Individual Defending 1 v 1
    Receiving balls and Turning
    Serving, Chipping, Bending balls
    All types of passing with all parts of foot
    All types of collecting the ball with all parts of the foot and body
    Passing weight and accuracy
    Unbalancing runs
    Long ball passing or clearing
    Heading to goal or to clear
    Runs in the penalty area
    Penetrating Passes, Final Pass
    Goal Scoring and Shooting
    Placement Shooting
    Long Range Shooting
    Volleys and Half Volleys
    Vision Training
    Receiving balls back to pressure
    Reliving Pressure
    Penalty kicks and Free Kicks
    Combination play

 Physical Dimension

    Fitness
    Strength, Flexibility and Cardio vascular fitness
    Injury, care and prevention
    Speed training
    Weight training & power
    Nutrition
    Foot speed and quickness
    Flexibility and balance
    Warm-up and cool down
    Circuit pressure training
    Periodization and off season training

Psychological Fitness

    Training discipline
    Self confidence
    Leadership
    Positive reinforcement
    How to deal with pressure
    Analysis of your performance
    Visualization
    Positive mental imaging
    Positive self motivation
    Sense of team
    Setting Goals


« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:16:15 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 04:03:43 am »
Components is a better word.  Four core areas, as you say, phases being more specific to attack/defend/transition. 
Thanks for the edit.

Tactics

    Creating and exploiting 1 v 1's
    Creating and... etc etc etc


Wow. Wound up like a clock. Small wonder most freeze




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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 05:11:00 am »
Goalrush, respectfully, now there could be another issue here other than tactics are overrated.  It may be there are too few people here with the ability to explain, translate, and spend the time necessary to write about the importance of tactics in the modern game or during previous eras.  I think this possibility highlights the importance of engaging some of the older members here in RAWK, not only to engage them  as knowledgeable and valuable resources, but also to make this translation a matter of tradition the club never loses in the world of casino capitalism football.     

The bolded bit. Yes please.  Pretty, pretty please.  I've heard the soundbites about what the great Shankly and Paisley teams were about.  I've seen some footage, and the occasional full match when I can find one, but someone who could explain to me their approaches in the succinct, easy-to-comprehend (too much so for some, I'm sure) way you have boiled down some of the finer points of our approach last year would be a godsend.  Or someone who could direct me to someone who's done so. 

And if you can do it all with a proud boner, then why the hell not?

Offline alvaro

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 05:23:49 am »
Yes. I think the reason this happens its because we can judge tactics much better than we can judge other stuff like concentration. For instance we can discuss how Rodgers plays his first XI much better than we can discuss Rodgers methods to improve the concentration of his players while defending set pieces.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 05:25:50 am »
Funnily enough I started a post on the "no more individual player threads" thread the other day basically saying the opposite - that a ridiculous amount of over attention is given to the transfer market and individual players etc. So, I think the absolute opposite :)

In my opinion there are no top flight pfessionals, least of all in the Liverpool squad, that "aren't good enough", provided at least that the structure and approach is right. I have no doubt we have the quality, its just a matter of getting them all working together... imho
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:28:22 am by kcbworth »

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 07:27:50 am »
The bolded bit. Yes please.  Pretty, pretty please.  I've heard the soundbites about what the great Shankly and Paisley teams were about.  I've seen some footage, and the occasional full match when I can find one, but someone who could explain to me their approaches in the succinct, easy-to-comprehend (too much so for some, I'm sure) way you have boiled down some of the finer points of our approach last year would be a godsend.  Or someone who could direct me to someone who's done so.
One of the great quotes (was it Bob Paisley?) when asked about the tactics for an upcoming game:

"Same as last year, son." [emoji4]


In one sense, tactics are of a greater priority if a team is not successful or trying to become so. Once the success is there it stops being tactical and is just the way you play.
ps thanks Trend. Enjoying those vignettes.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 07:31:38 am by McrRed »

Offline macca007

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 07:51:34 am »
Link?

Took a bit of finding but heres pop's thread.  Well worth reading as it goes into the coaching of tactics and how managers try to exploit space and time.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=301918.0

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 07:56:27 am »
Arsene Wenger doesn't believe in tactics so that should suggest they are very important. What I will say is he is a great manager and he consistently gets top 4 but if he was a little more tactical then perhaps he would have bagged one or two more league titles in the last decade or had more success in Europe had he been more savvy.

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 08:13:37 am »
I think you've got a point that "tactics" is perhaps used to freely, but the game has evolved a lot in the last 20 years (since Liverpool was dominating).

I agree with you fully thought that managers get far too much credit than players do in general. And far too much shit as well, when it goes the other way.
Tactics are ridiculously important but I think the point made above about them being used too freely is a real issue. When you have people like Alan Shearer proclaiming that if a team win then they "got their tactics spot on" and the opposite if they lose, without any understanding or explanation into what they thought the particular tactics in use were and how they worked/failed in certain parts of the game it just kind of trivialises the whole notion of tactics.
They also seem to blur the line between tactics and the random variables within the game a lot and complain that a "lack of character/fight/leadership" and all those good old English characteristics are somehow a tactical mistake.
The only real tactical discussion we get from pundits is how people set up at corners, other than that it's just talking through people's mistakes for conceded goals with the word tactic thrown in to try and validate their point, and themselves.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Are the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 08:59:29 am »
Tactics is part of the package. It's one tool to be able to get the results you want.

I was reminded the other night that Bill Shankly often said that anybody who needs to read a book about the game shouldn't be invoved in it. Now that was circa fifty years ago but it's food for thought.

I think a lot of those old quotes are great, but also perhaps misunderstood. Who can forget the one about just pass the ball to a player wearing the same shirt? With the addition that football is a very simple game. Sure, but it's easy to say that. It takes a good amount of work and training and quality to be able to keep the ball within the team. One can't just throw a ball out and let players train and then you have a system in place. It needs a great deal of work. Once it's in place, things look very simple. When I read some of Shanklys quotes, it sounds as if he was ignorant, that he didn't care. What I've read about him, he was the direct opposite. He was eager to learn more and he was ahead of his time. They kept track of training conditions, they looked at Hungary for inspiration, they copied some boxer's diet etc. We can laugh today, but it was the best knowledge they had at the time and used it. Others didn't.

I believe it's the same with tactics today. You need to be able to have a foundation in place. You need to ensure the players can pass the ball properly, before you can have a possession based game. Once you have that, you can alter your tactics. You become more flexible. Then there's more knowledge today about basic formations and what works on set plays. If you want to stay ahead and get an advantage, you need to think in new ways. Etc.


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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 09:16:11 am »
The idea that Shanks and Paisley weren't fans of tactics seems a misconception to me, certainly. They might not have wanted people to know it, sure, but they weren't simply flinging 11 men on the pitch and winning fuck loads of trophies. They were smarter than that for sure.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 09:17:17 am »
Given the success of tactically minded coaches and their teams I find it hard to believe their importance is overstated.

Bayern last night for example were on another planet to a very good Roma side. Yes they have very good players, but the way that Guardiola deploys them is what sets them apart.

Same with Mourinho since his Porto days, same with our run to the Istanbul under Rafa and his success with Valencia vs the big two.

You'll of course get coaches/managers who are less tactically centric and still successful. Someone like Ferguson or perhaps Simeone. Managers who can acheive high level success through sheer force of personality (this isnt to say they dont think tactically at all).

But by and large, big trophies, big success, is acheived by those who think about the game and try to innovate.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 09:18:52 am by Cpt_Reina »

Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 09:41:34 am »
Tactics are the reason a team like us could go on to win the 2005 CL Final even after being 3-0 down. Formation changed, Hamman in and we take back the game. Why we were able to beat Barca at the Nou Camp. It's why Mourinho has a very impressive record against the top 4 teams in the PL. Why Madrid ripped Bayern a new one last season.

And I'd put the reason for our awful defence recently, not only down to individual errors, but down to the tactics we play. In saying that, you need the right players to carry out what the manager wants.

So I'd say no, tactics is what allows you to level the playing field when you're outmatched against a better team, or how a better team can demolish an equal. If there wasn't a heavy emphasis on tactics and systems, players wouldn't know how to approach a game. They have the skills on the ball, but I don't think many would know what type of role to play during a game to get the best chance of winning.
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Offline telekon

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2014, 11:01:29 am »
Random events are individually unpredictable, but the frequency of different outcomes over a large number of events are frequently predictable. 90 minutes of football is not a large number of events. It's down to chance and circumstance a lot I'd say. Tactics can increase your probability, but it can't help you control chance events.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2014, 11:06:38 am »
I think we (fans, pundits, even managers sometimes) confuse 'tactics' and 'strategy' too often. Strategy is about a general approach; 'patterns of play', we might call it. Tactics, I think, is more about fine adjustments from game to game; the area Rafa or Mourinho excel in.

Strategy, I think, is fundamental. A team has to be finely tuned, for each player to be in sync with the others, to know what they're likely to do at any moment. To use a Sacchi phrase, "the harmonic movement of 11 players, who are always active, with or without the ball". That strategy has to become first nature to players through coaching, to become a cohesive unit, for an instinctive decision on the ball to be the right one.

Tactics - the exact formation for a given game, whether a certain player is asked to perform some specific role, or sit deeper, or target an area of the opposition - I think are less fundamental. And, I suspect, a good strategist will beat a good tactician in the long run.

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Offline redmark

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2014, 11:26:04 am »
Tactics or decision patterns are a huge part of the game.  For the ordinary supporter who might not never come near the academic side of the sport or get a coaching badge, this word might get confused with only 11 vs 11 game dynamics.  It might seem unnecessarily complicated, or be privileged above other areas of the game, which at times both can be. 

I remember discussing this in one of the old threads ('The System is King', from a quick check). I'm not sure it is about 'making decisions'; I think it's about doing the right thing instinctively, for most players. That instinct comes from training, and practice, and more training and more practice. Second nature becomes first nature.

Tactics, then (back to the difference between tactics and strategy) is game to game tweaks to that strategy; putting a layer of in-the-moment decision making over the general patterns of play. I think you might afford to do that with a couple of key (intelligent) players, but doing it too widely across a team disrupts instinct and cohesion. Tactics becomes a blocker to strategy (back to my previous post and the Sacchi quote, game-to-game tactical instruction I think can become an impediment to cohesive patterns of play; learned-instinctive ;) harmonic movement).
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:21:28 pm by redmark »
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Offline telekon

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 11:37:11 am »
I remember discussing this in one of the old threads ('The System is King', from a quick check). I'm not sure it is about 'making decisions'; I think it's about doing the right thing instinctively, for most players. That instinct comes from training, and practice, and more training and more practice. Second nature becomes first nature.

Tactics, then (back to the difference between tactics and strategy) is game to game tweaks to that strategy; putting a layer of in-the-moment decision making over the general patterns of play. I think you might afford to do that with a couple of key (intelligent) players, but doing it too widely across a team disrupts instinct and cohesion. Tactics becomes a blocker to strategy.

I know what you mean but it's not instinct. Instinct is the opposite of learned behavior. In other words, any behavior is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 11:47:25 am »
I know what you mean but it's not instinct. Instinct is the opposite of learned behavior. In other words, any behavior is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience.

Agreed, and it came up in the other thread at the time. But despite being biologically inaccurate, it's a nice shorthand :).
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Offline Spartacus.

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2014, 12:16:36 pm »
This is an interesting one, I mention this often, when discussing footy with my mates I’m often saying ‘it’s really not that complicated, it’s just football’ but then someone will talk me into believing it is.

I think back in the day tactics were just as important but they were not necessarily discussed and over analysed like they are today, that’s the main difference for me.

Today everyone gets hung up on statistics not just tactics, a simple question like ‘Did X player play well’ opens a mind field minefield , I’m likely to say yes/no and then back that up with basic footy points, I’m ok with that, that’s how I prefer it.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:26:30 pm by Mummy Spartacus (Mrs) »
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Offline telekon

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2014, 12:24:00 pm »
This is an interesting one, I mention this often, when discussing footy with my mates I’m often saying ‘it’s really not that complicated, it’s just football’ but then someone will talk me into believing it is.

I think back in the day tactics were just as important but they were not necessarily discussed and over analysed like they are today, that’s the main difference for me.

Today everyone gets hung up on statistics not just tactics, a simple question like ‘Did X player play well’ opens a mind field, I’m likely to say yes/no and then back that up with basic footy points, I’m ok with that, that’s how I prefer it.

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2014, 12:25:25 pm »
Best made up word ever!  :D

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2014, 12:56:02 pm »
High block, low block, the press, false 9, the no.10 role...only takes one person on RAWK to say it and everyone's all over it like a fucking rash shoe-horning it in to their posts to make it appear they know what they're fucking talking about. I prefer it in the boozer talking about the game with my mates where NOBODY mentions any of that shite and if they did they'd be told to go outside and have a word with themselves.

Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Is the importance of tactics overstated in the modern game?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2014, 01:19:06 pm »
First of all – thanks for the inputs so far.
As I said back in the day tactics were presented more as footballing philosophies, nobody went down to the minutia. For instance we all knew that Bob Paisley’s philosophy was possession football, Brian Clough’s was counter attack football and George Graham’s was route 1. Very few of us understood, or cared, how that philosophy was instilled in their team i.e. how the systems required were coached.

Nobody asked the managers in their post-match interviews (often on local radio in those days) and they didn’t volunteer the information either. Sick as a parrot and over the moon basically covered it! Match of the Day analysis consisted of Jimmy Hill talking about flat back fours and team formations.
 
For me this indicates that tactics and the coaching of tactics, or indeed the tactical battle, were not viewed as the major influence on the outcome of games. That’s not to say that there nobody thought that they were just that the media didn't and the industry itself didn't appear to want us let us in on any secret that existed. Perhaps it could be argued that, at that time the influence of tactics were understated, I don't know.

Along came Sky and 24/7 coverage and the average supporter is much more educated on all facets of the game. Managers (or coaches as they are now described) are being portrayed as tacticians first and foremost. Suddenly everybody is aware of the “game within a game” that Trend mentioned in the other thread. I have to admit it is interesting stuff but it’s not necessarily new although like everything else the tactical side of the game has undoubtedly evolved.

Managers nowadays will dwell on even the smallest detail to get an advantage. Just because the tactical battle is such an intriguing one, for the discerning football fan, shouldn’t imo put it suddenly up above all other details.

When I ask is the importance of tactics overstated, I am not suggesting that it should be ignored. Its just that I think that, first and foremost, it’s good players with a common purpose that makes a good team. The manager’s tactical approach, again imo, has a less considerable impact on the success of the team.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 01:20:46 pm by goalrushatgoodison »
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