Topic: The Hunt.

[exiledinyorkshire]

My knowledge of football is limited, my understanding of the game comes to me in unpredictable and infrequent lucid moments when I think I can see the matrix, and then far too quickly it goes again, lost in a sea of movement and chaos.

However, the words of our glorious leader stick with me. Brendan Rodgers a a fantastic communicator, his knowledge of the game isn't in question I would hope, he speaks beautifully about it, and is always happy to explain his ideas to the press. And the sound bites seem to stick and seem to make perfectly logical sense.

One thing he said last season that was simple and thought provoking for me at least was this "when we press well, we pass well" and to my mind as soon as it was said it became an instant truism, an inescapable fact.

Last season very much like this season, we have started the campaign not pressing well. And if the truism is to be believed as a consequence we don't pass all that well. At the height of our powers in the last year we were a genuinely brilliant blend of high pressure  front foot menace and scarily quick and ruthless counter.

This year we have seen it just once against Spurs.

So my question to the more knowledgable on these boards is simply this, where has the hunt gone from our game. Are we just not in the period of the season where we can apply it effectively.? Are teams setting themselves up to make it a redundant weapon? Do we no longer have the correct personnel available to us in order to effectively play a high pressing game? Are we no longer that kind of team? Has Rodgers changed his philosophy or is he simply not working on it right now.

All I know is that I can see it happen, I can see them apply the kind of pressure I'm expecting, but it's not working.

I know that's a lot of questions, but I watched a game during the World Cup from the Dutch I think, where the pressure they applied to every single support option for the player on the ball effectively strangled the Spanish to death. And they must have achieved that level of cohesive team pressing in double quick time.

Where has our team hunt for the ball gone boys, and will it come back any time soon?

[WorldChampions]

I'm hopeful its just players still finding fitness etc. The pressing wasn't as relentless until after Xmas last year.

[Fromola]

I'm hopeful its just players still finding fitness etc. The pressing wasn't as relentless until after Xmas last year.

It started at Spurs away once we found the right system and formula. We're back to trying things that don't work at the moment and suffering. Some of it down to injuries (Allen, Sturridge) but we should really have the squad to cope.

You're not going to see us press as much like rabid dogs playing every 3 or 4 days either.

[the_red_pill]

It started at Spurs away once we found the right system and formula. We're back to trying things that don't work at the moment and suffering. Some of it down to injuries (Allen, Sturridge) but we should really have the squad to cope.

You're not going to see us press as much like rabid dogs playing every 3 or 4 days either.

I'm sure it will be back in the 2nd half- just as it was last season and the season before. It's a pattern and it coincides with fitness. Having to experiment with formations and tactics is a given seeing as we've basically "overhauled" the squad, so there's no real surprise for me there.
Like you say- we will press less, but it will still be there.

Who knows- on Saturday we looked fitter and more determined to win than in most of our previous games this season, so we may see that blistering start against Real. We may go for speedy fullbacks against Real instead of experience. Put some or all of Henderson, Can, Allen in there and we may see an old friend back again on Wednesday.

[The 5th Benitle]

Nice one exiledinyorkshire, good to see a considered OP which will hopefully lead to some good analysis and discussion.

[Jimmy Jazz]

Been thinking this a lot during our games.

I've felt like, a mixture of personnel, tactics, luck we've missed some of the clever hunting that, to me, were some of the outstanding moments of Spurs away, Arsenal at home. Luis, Daniel, Raheem, even Coutinho against Arsenal springs to mind, as closing down the opposition and winning the ball before passing. Close, knick it, pass it. They couldn't cope.

I felt Everton, West Brom at home we had the right energy, but still weren't coming away with the ball cleanly and as often. Adam and Jordan were often getting it right. But the whole team finding it's teeth hasn't been there apart from Spurs.

[cowtownred]

Yes, that is a fantastic OP.

Its something I've wondered too...  but I can't offer any answers. The energy and verve we showed in that glorious period appears missing.  I don't know if we're trying to play differently, or whether its that we are missing some of the players who did it well. We definitely miss Suarez and Allen, and Henderson is not getting forward as he once did.

Not sure if I know whats going on.

[Cid]

It's a mixture of the players we had available and the choices that their performances almost forced the manager into making.

You couldn't drop Sturridge or Suarez so we played two up top whenever they were available.  I think Brendan naturally prefers one up top.

We had Lucas out for a long time and Allen too while Henderson had rarely showed he could play the deep midfield role well so we played an attacking triangle with Gerrard sat deep.  Again this season has shown that Brendan seemingly prefers two deep and one advanced midfielders.

Henderson has developed well but we missed his energy further up the field.  Coutinho has found himself or heavily marked behind a lone striker who he's played his best football in the middle behind two.

Our best formation last season for my money was this:

rb cb cb lb
Cdm
Cm    cm
Cam
St   St

It worked so well because the two strikers we had naturally broke wide when the space was there so gave us width.

For one reason or another we didn't sign another striker who breaks wide, or with any pace at all.  I still think we should be fitting the players to the formation but so far we seem to be looking for a formation to fit the new players.

[Kopendscorer]

Its 'Sir Roger' to you mate.

[CHOPPER]

Some may say slow starters, others may say considered slow starters. Benitez's teams had that air of a slow start about them - where fitness and concentration levels hit there premium turning into the new year.
This may just well be the same. The problem is, they were two entirely different systems and the current one is far more attacking, which in turn, allows us to be attacked more, the former was more compact and defensively minded(in the main) we could absorb more pressure. This current one is suffering as we ain't firing on two, let alone all four cylinders at the mo. It will come, it may just take time, but when it does, watch us go.

Having said all that, we're playing shite and are fifth - read into that what you may pop-pickers.


PS. James.

[4pool]

Last season Rodgers went with basically 15 players because we didn't have midweek distractions. The players formed an almost telepathic understanding of when to press as a team and when to drop back and pick up their men.

Which led to telepathic passing at times where the ball was sent into space and you just knew one of our players would be there. or the passer knew which way the player was going to move to send the ball in that direction.

This season, with so many new players, the passes into space aren't being completed as often. Usually because of unfamiliarity of when to attack the space knowing the ball will be there or hold and have the ball come to feet. These are things which are constantly worked on in training but doing them in the match is sometimes another thing. So only in time will we get better.

Same with pressing. We don't do it as a team as often as we should or can because not everyone is on the same wavelength. Again training is the key. Then implementation in the match. These things take time when you have so many new players.

We see some of this at times this season but not often enough like last season where it just became a collective mentality. A mentality born of constant winning and getting 3 points.

imho..

[Spanish Al]

IMO, pressing starts from the front. The striker/s are the first line of defence. The one time we've seen it this season was at Spurs, where Sturridge and Balotelli both played. Sturridge does a lot more pressing than people believe. Since it's been just Mario up there, there's been no real pressing from the front. Not having a pop at Mario either, he isn't that sort of player. Also, I think Brendan is tinkering around bit at the moment as we haven't had a fully fit squad to pick from yet. With our best 11 and best matchday squad available, I think the pressing will come back.

[Bob Sacamano]

As PoP pointed out several times, we've never actually been a true pressing team under Rodgers. We apply "pressure" at times, but we don't have a true press like Pochetinno's Southampton or Pep's Barca.

And I really believe we could and should be a pressing team.

[Homo rubrum]

Approaching this, as I always do, from the view of "what am I not understanding about our managers master plan?" this is the best I can come up with: 

As some have already pointed out (and also the reason I so lament PoP's absence) we train in such a way that our fitness builds throughout the season.  I can't pretend to understand tactical periodization (or tactics, for that matter ) but the proof seemed to be in the plodding, as they say.  We noticeably sped up as the year went on, and have done throughout Rodgers tenure. 

This, coupled with blooding in so many new recruits and a drastically increased fixture congestion, and coming off a world cup year, forced his hand a bit.  So maybe we're seeing the extreme version of the Rodgers seasonal blueprint. 

Just like we started out last season looking to stifle teams deeper into our own territory- a preference for deploying two holding mids being the tactical manifestation that even laymen such as myself can see- Rodgers was looking for a gameplan that didn't require quite so much running or group cohesion. 

If I accept that as his motivation, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.  I can even see him being lauded for it when it finally starts to work.  Imagine a team that starts a season one way- designed to stifle teams that front load their own fitness work- and gradually progresses to another- designed to blow those teams away as their relative fitness wanes and ours waxes.  You are in a situation where you somehow always have the advantage in the fitness stakes, as you are requiring your players to do a lesser percentage of what their training allows of their body than the other team, all season.  With the added benefit of a plasticity of approach ingrained in the players. 

Even the snapshot that is the QPR game corroborates this- we kept ourselves in check to the point that we were able to get the upper hand when they were at their most fatigued. 

There are a whole host of mitigating factors that may make this approach less successful for now, the Sturridge and Allen injuries topping that list in my mind.  But Rodgers has to view the season as a whole and can't just start telling players to press more now if that's not what his entire training regimen is designed for. 

So, come April, when we are 8 games into a winning run where nobody else can keep their heads above the Red Tide, I'm sure we'll all look back fondly on those games where we plodded along, biding our time. 

And next season, when we only make one or two quality additions, and the 'system' is ingrained in the 'group' and a player of the right 'profile' has been brought in to ensure injuries don't get in our way too much (because Hodgson was finally accepted for what he is and summarily sacked?!?!), God help the rest of the league. 

[Corkboy]

Nice OP, exiledinyorkshire.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Now tonight it was definitely there for 20 minutes, we looked good and the hunt was the reason. Madrid were there for an Arsenal like destruction in my opinion. But we didn't score, and then we conceded. With Sturridge and Suarez up top, that first 20 minutes would have resulted in a goal.

Last year that high pressing first 20 minutes absolutely blew teams out t he water which then meant we could the pick them off on the counter as well. But for it to work, you need a lethal tip to your sword and Ballotelli isn't the sharpest tool in the box is he.

The team that finished tonight's game, would scare the shit out of most midfields. But Brendan won't start wit it because he won't or can't see where the goals will come from.

Personally I think his hand is now forced, ballotelli is a passenger as far as I can see, and the goals are coming from the midfield anyway. Better to play with Sterling as a false 9 in my opinion, at least the pressure would be good and consistent and as a consequence our passing game would surely create more than the sulky lonely striker we routinely deploy this season.

A front five of Allen Hendo sterling lallana and Gerrard, would massively improve our hunt for the ball, and that was a key part of our game last year.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Approaching this, as I always do, from the view of "what am I not understanding about our managers master plan?" this is the best I can come up with: 

As some have already pointed out (and also the reason I so lament PoP's absence) we train in such a way that our fitness builds throughout the season.  I can't pretend to understand tactical periodization (or tactics, for that matter ) but the proof seemed to be in the plodding, as they say.  We noticeably sped up as the year went on, and have done throughout Rodgers tenure. 

This, coupled with blooding in so many new recruits and a drastically increased fixture congestion, and coming off a world cup year, forced his hand a bit.  So maybe we're seeing the extreme version of the Rodgers seasonal blueprint. 

Just like we started out last season looking to stifle teams deeper into our own territory- a preference for deploying two holding mids being the tactical manifestation that even laymen such as myself can see- Rodgers was looking for a gameplan that didn't require quite so much running or group cohesion. 

If I accept that as his motivation, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.  I can even see him being lauded for it when it finally starts to work.  Imagine a team that starts a season one way- designed to stifle teams that front load their own fitness work- and gradually progresses to another- designed to blow those teams away as their relative fitness wanes and ours waxes.  You are in a situation where you somehow always have the advantage in the fitness stakes, as you are requiring your players to do a lesser percentage of what their training allows of their body than the other team, all season.  With the added benefit of a plasticity of approach ingrained in the players. 

Even the snapshot that is the QPR game corroborates this- we kept ourselves in check to the point that we were able to get the upper hand when they were at their most fatigued. 

There are a whole host of mitigating factors that may make this approach less successful for now, the Sturridge and Allen injuries topping that list in my mind.  But Rodgers has to view the season as a whole and can't just start telling players to press more now if that's not what his entire training regimen is designed for. 

So, come April, when we are 8 games into a winning run where nobody else can keep their heads above the Red Tide, I'm sure we'll all look back fondly on those games where we plodded along, biding our time. 

And next season, when we only make one or two quality additions, and the 'system' is ingrained in the 'group' and a player of the right 'profile' has been brought in to ensure injuries don't get in our way too much (because Hodgson was finally accepted for what he is and summarily sacked?!?!), God help the rest of the league. 

Great insight mate, hope your right.

[exiledinyorkshire]

As PoP pointed out several times, we've never actually been a true pressing team under Rodgers. We apply "pressure" at times, but we don't have a true press like Pochetinno's Southampton or Pep's Barca.

And I really believe we could and should be a pressing team.

Yeah but we never got to the bottom of whether it was by design or just lack of ability to do it, did we?

[exiledinyorkshire]

I'm hopeful its just players still finding fitness etc. The pressing wasn't as relentless until after Xmas last year.

I'm sure it will be back in the 2nd half- just as it was last season and the season before. It's a pattern and it coincides with fitness. Having to experiment with formations and tactics is a given seeing as we've basically "overhauled" the squad, so there's no real surprise for me there.
Like you say- we will press less, but it will still be there.

Who knows- on Saturday we looked fitter and more determined to win than in most of our previous games this season, so we may see that blistering start against Real. We may go for speedy fullbacks against Real instead of experience. Put some or all of Henderson, Can, Allen in there and we may see an old friend back again on Wednesday.

Interesting,  can in for Gerrard? Would that help the Hunt? Gerrard is certainly not as mobile as he was.

[Homo rubrum]

Interesting,  can in for Gerrard? Would that help the Hunt? Gerrard is certainly not as mobile as he was.

When we're really doing it right, I think the role at the base of the midfield is less hunting and more scavenging, so mobility comes after nous.  That player has the luxury of watching the hunting pack ahead of him, and just has to place himself at the end of the funnel they've created- the place where the forced pass is going to go, or the player taking increasingly desperate touches will end up.  Gerrard did this fairly well a few times against Real, I thought, but I don't have the knowledge of the game to spot the times/places he should've been when he wasn't- I'm only really capable of noticing when he does it right. 
And I definitely haven't seen enough of Can- certainly not a fit, confident of his place in the team Can- to know whether or not that awareness is a strong point of his.  I have seen enough of him to know his physicality and ability to burst through the lines might serve us quite well in the more advanced roles, though. 

I suppose, if Gerrard weren't in the side (with all the tactical implications therein), those roles could be a bit more fluid, and the midfield players could potential cycle through turns in the less physically demanding job as a bit of a breather before rejoining the hunt proper. 

[rickardinho1]

Three things:

1. When Sturridge is injured we lack a striker who plays on the last man. This allows CB's to cheat forward and compress the space in front of them without fear of getting beat for pace behind them, which in turn makes it harder to press the midfielders as many of the loose balls from the initial press are collected or intercepted by the CB's.

2. Many new players. They will need time to learn the triggers for pressing, positional nuances, and the tendencies of their new teammates.

3. Injuries to key players. BR was spot-on recently when he highlighted that his plan was to start with most of last years team and introduce the new boys slowly, one at a time. Injuries to Johnson, Flanagan, Allen, Coutinho, and Sturridge, among others, have forced BR to play more faces all at once than he probably would have liked. Starting the season with Lallana, Markovic, and Can injured didn't help either. Markovic, Moreno, Manquillo, Can, Balotelli, Lambert, etc would ideally have been gradually introduced into a stable team who know the system well, but that hasn't happened. Joe Allen missing has been the biggest blow so far imo as the pressing is completely dysfunctional without him and Henderson in midfield at the moment.

[Mutton Geoff]

I hope people dont take this the wrong way but i think Rodgers bought this summer for the future when a great player is no longer picked or plays far less,  there is the glimmer of a good midfield trio with Can, Allen, Henderson, and then Coutinho or Lallana orchestrating things  ahead of them.

 However the guy i believe they were bought to replace ( because one player is not enough) is still doing a good job for us and this is creating a little bit of mix and match with no consistency in the middle of the park this means as a passing team we are like a top range car missfiring right now.

[bodhisattva]

no teams can press for 90min, i think a big part of our problem has been we've not been able to rest with the ball very often this season and we've not been good at sitting back and inviting pressure and then breaking because defensively we've looked so vulnerable when we've done that.

we've seen that high tempo game in spells this season against Spurs, against Everton and for about 15min yesterday but you also saw yesterday how physically demanding it is to do that so at points during the game you have to rest either with the ball or without the ball and we've just not been good at that.

i do think in order to press well you're only as strong as your weakest link and in Balotelli we have someone thats almost the antithesis of what we need from the front and in a large way that sets the tone for the rest of the team, also someone like Gerrard just physically isn't as capable anymore although in his position its not as important.

[Suareznumber7]

Last season Rodgers went with basically 15 players because we didn't have midweek distractions. The players formed an almost telepathic understanding of when to press as a team and when to drop back and pick up their men.

Which led to telepathic passing at times where the ball was sent into space and you just knew one of our players would be there. or the passer knew which way the player was going to move to send the ball in that direction.

This season, with so many new players, the passes into space aren't being completed as often. Usually because of unfamiliarity of when to attack the space knowing the ball will be there or hold and have the ball come to feet. These are things which are constantly worked on in training but doing them in the match is sometimes another thing. So only in time will we get better.

Same with pressing. We don't do it as a team as often as we should or can because not everyone is on the same wavelength. Again training is the key. Then implementation in the match. These things take time when you have so many new players.

We see some of this at times this season but not often enough like last season where it just became a collective mentality. A mentality born of constant winning and getting 3 points.

imho..

This is it for me.  It's simply the large number of new players that have come into the squad, coupled with the lack of training time due to extra games, that is the reason for our slow start and relatively poor play.  This group simply needs time together on the training ground in order to fully understand all the automatism's that are built into Rodgers system.  It may be a case of what happened in Rodgers first year where we come alive after Christmas and start hitting our stride.  That may depend on how far we go in the cups as well as in Europe though as the extra games limit the amount of time we have on the training ground. 

[Suareznumber7]

Approaching this, as I always do, from the view of "what am I not understanding about our managers master plan?" this is the best I can come up with: 

As some have already pointed out (and also the reason I so lament PoP's absence) we train in such a way that our fitness builds throughout the season.  I can't pretend to understand tactical periodization (or tactics, for that matter ) but the proof seemed to be in the plodding, as they say.  We noticeably sped up as the year went on, and have done throughout Rodgers tenure. 

This, coupled with blooding in so many new recruits and a drastically increased fixture congestion, and coming off a world cup year, forced his hand a bit.  So maybe we're seeing the extreme version of the Rodgers seasonal blueprint. 

Just like we started out last season looking to stifle teams deeper into our own territory- a preference for deploying two holding mids being the tactical manifestation that even laymen such as myself can see- Rodgers was looking for a gameplan that didn't require quite so much running or group cohesion. 

If I accept that as his motivation, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.  I can even see him being lauded for it when it finally starts to work.  Imagine a team that starts a season one way- designed to stifle teams that front load their own fitness work- and gradually progresses to another- designed to blow those teams away as their relative fitness wanes and ours waxes.  You are in a situation where you somehow always have the advantage in the fitness stakes, as you are requiring your players to do a lesser percentage of what their training allows of their body than the other team, all season.  With the added benefit of a plasticity of approach ingrained in the players. 

Even the snapshot that is the QPR game corroborates this- we kept ourselves in check to the point that we were able to get the upper hand when they were at their most fatigued. 

There are a whole host of mitigating factors that may make this approach less successful for now, the Sturridge and Allen injuries topping that list in my mind.  But Rodgers has to view the season as a whole and can't just start telling players to press more now if that's not what his entire training regimen is designed for. 

So, come April, when we are 8 games into a winning run where nobody else can keep their heads above the Red Tide, I'm sure we'll all look back fondly on those games where we plodded along, biding our time. 

And next season, when we only make one or two quality additions, and the 'system' is ingrained in the 'group' and a player of the right 'profile' has been brought in to ensure injuries don't get in our way too much (because Hodgson was finally accepted for what he is and summarily sacked?!?!), God help the rest of the league.

Great post right here and pretty much spot on. 

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah but we never got to the bottom of whether it was by design or just lack of ability to do it, did we?

Has to be by design. With Sahko, Lovren, Manquillo and Moreno we have the backline to do it now, and we've always had the midfielders and attackers to do it.

I think it's just Rodgers' philosophy--aggressive in attack and conservative in defence.

[Floydy]

feeling quite relaxed to be honest about things. We have it in us to finish the season strongly, things will settle down on the pitch, we are in a decent position without really playing too well and a couple of tough away fixtures out of the way with. Fitness and rythmn will come, as long as we are in the mix we always pose a threat. I maintain that a top 4 finish would represent progress.