Author Topic: Liverpool's Defence  (Read 695616 times)

Offline Notfromaroundhere

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #200 on: August 25, 2014, 10:54:03 pm »
i disagree with carras analysis of that second goal. surely when lovren pushes out, skrtel, who can see him and moreno further up the pitch ahs to push out and take glen johnson with him??

for me that second goal is more skrtel and johnsons fault than lovrens (assuming the team is instructed to push out and squeeze the space)

Haven't seen the analysis, but for me that goal was also down to Coutinho leaving the space behind Lovren and Allen not tracking the runner. Moreno and Lovren both push up - that's fine. Since Skrtel and Johnson don't push out though, Coutinho should then wait until Moreno has the chance to come back in position. As soon as Coutinho stepped out, the space opened up for the City player, and Allen didn't follow him.

The worrying thing for me is that we have a half n' half defence. Lovren and Moreno are proactive, while the other two are very much reactive. Very obvious for the second goal, and until all four are on the same wavelength there's always a risk of these things happening.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #201 on: August 25, 2014, 11:16:59 pm »
2012/2013:

Man United away: 2 goals conceded
City away: 2 goals conceded
Arsenal away: 2 goals conceded
Chelsea away: 1 goal conceded (Chelsea mediocre at this point)
Everton away: 2 goals conceded
Spurs away: 2 goals conceded

2013/2014:
Man United away: 0 goals conceded (Moyes era in full effect)
City away: 2 goals conceded
Arsenal away: 2 goals conceded
Chelsea away: 2 goals conceded
Everton away: 3 goals conceded
Spurs away: 0 goals conceded (Spurs shite during this period)

2014/2015:
City away: 3 goals conceded



There's been a ton of different defensive and goalkeeping combinations in that period. At some point Rodgers is going to have to sit down and figure a way to change how we play in these big away games. I shudder to think what would happen against the teams of Messi, Neymar and Suarez or Bale, Ronaldo and James
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Offline Hayer

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #202 on: August 25, 2014, 11:18:37 pm »
2012/2013:

Man United away: 2 goals conceded
City away: 2 goals conceded
Arsenal away: 2 goals conceded
Chelsea away: 1 goal conceded (Chelsea mediocre at this point)
Everton away: 2 goals conceded
Spurs away: 2 goals conceded

2013/2014:
Man United away: 0 goals conceded (Moyes era in full effect)
City away: 2 goals conceded
Arsenal away: 2 goals conceded
Chelsea away: 2 goals conceded
Everton away: 3 goals conceded
Spurs away: 0 goals conceded (Spurs shite during this period)

2014/2015:
City away: 3 goals conceded



There's been a ton of different defensive and goalkeeping combinations in that period. At some point Rodgers is going to have to sit down and figure a way to change how we play in these big away games. I shudder to think what would happen against the teams of Messi, Neymar and Suarez or Bale, Ronaldo and James

That's awful.

Really do hope we don't bump into the elite teams in the CL group stage. Could get embarrassing with our amateur defending.

Offline Zlen

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #203 on: August 25, 2014, 11:20:24 pm »
We should focus more on defence this season or we're going nowhere fast.
No surprise that our attack won't be as potent without Luis, so we really need to do much better on the other side - however it may be done.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #204 on: August 25, 2014, 11:22:00 pm »
We should focus more on defence this season or we're going nowhere fast.
No surprise that our attack won't be as potent without Luis, so we really need to do much better on the other side - however it may be done.

Agree with this. A lot of coaching is required none of them (glen aside) are bad players. In fact they are very good. But again for me Sakho has to play he's our best defender just needs a leader by his side
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Offline ShatnersBassoon

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #205 on: August 25, 2014, 11:23:46 pm »
It's two games in. Playing away at the champions. The defense won't be instantly impenetrable. It's a harsh lesson but part of the process and people need to be patient. We don't have the luxury of bedding them in with games against burnley, Leicester, etc.

Once we have a steady, settled backline we should see an improvement.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #206 on: August 25, 2014, 11:26:59 pm »
For my money the fault of goals so far:

Southampton 1 : Lucas primarily.
City 1: Moreno slow reactions and should have cleared.
City 2: Skrtel, basic failure to keep the defensive line,
City 3: Lovren, too much space created by not moving with Moreno as he was pulled wide.

I don't quite understand why our players are making such basic errors?  Arguably City 1 and City 3 are to do with a new full back bedding in, but the other two are inexcusable.

Offline laximaginationzzz

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #207 on: August 25, 2014, 11:31:26 pm »
Just saw a stat saying we've conceded at least 2 goals in 23/39 away league games under BR
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Offline Hayer

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #208 on: August 25, 2014, 11:33:05 pm »
Just saw a stat saying we've conceded at least 2 goals in 23/39 away league games under BR

That's an awful stat.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #209 on: August 25, 2014, 11:36:00 pm »
To compete defensively against elite teams away from home we`ll need two CB`s on the same page and two DM`s to patrol the space between the lines. Don`t see any other way.

Offline Austin Powers

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2014, 11:36:59 pm »
For my money the fault of goals so far:

Southampton 1 : Lucas primarily. Could still have been defended by Skrtel pulling across to close the space between him and Lovren and defend as a unit
City 1: Moreno slow reactions and should have cleared. Could have been stopped originally had Lovren pulled across to close the space between him and Moreno and defended as a unit
City 2: Skrtel, basic failure to keep the defensive line, can't actually remember this goal to be honest
City 3: Lovren, too much space created by not moving with Moreno as he was pulled wide. So if we, again, defend as a unit and Lovren moves across when Moreno does we could have also had a possibility of stopping the goal

I don't quite understand why our players are making such basic errors?  Arguably City 1 and City 3 are to do with a new full back bedding in, but the other two are inexcusable.

My point is, at what point do these stop becoming frustrating individual errors and start becoming failings in the way the defence are coached/organised to defend?

Offline Samie

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2014, 11:37:13 pm »
We need that Defensive coach.  Maybe split the  head coaches position as Brendan will be our Attack Coach.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:42:50 pm by Samie »

Offline mart356

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2014, 11:41:10 pm »
We need that Defensive coach.  Maybe split the  head coaches position as Brendan will be out Attack Coach.

That's not how it works. The team works as one, unfortunately Brendan does seem to completely ignore any defensive shape coaching. A defensive coach wont help. We make errors both systematically and individually. Changing the system of the defence is essentially changing the whole team. Indivudual errors can be helped however.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2014, 11:47:48 pm »
Just saw a stat saying we've conceded at least 2 goals in 23/39 away league games under BR
You remind me of us under Hughes when we were lovely going forward but bloody awful at the back. The first thing Mancini did was tighten up at the back. We were pretty gruesome to watch at times but it was effective in stemming the goals against. Once he'd got things right at the back, we started to play more expansively. You had two new players in your back four tonight and I thought they looked more solid than last season but it takes time to get a back four to understand each other and work together. The question is, can Rodgers get them to do that?

Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2014, 11:48:19 pm »
I'd be interested to see what would happen if Sakho and Manquillo came into the team for Skrtel and Johnson.

Offline Floydy

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2014, 11:48:41 pm »
its a very big ask to improve last years leaky defence whilst bedding in 3 new defenders.  Unless the system is tweaked as opposed to personnel then we will struggle. Said all last season that the attacking play was good, but it would do us no favours in Europe.
Brendan desperately needs to improve this side of the team. Really hope he does.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2014, 11:49:29 pm »
You remind me of us under Hughes when we were lovely going forward but bloody awful at the back. The first thing Mancini did was tighten up at the back. We were pretty gruesome to watch at times but it was effective in stemming the goals against. Once he'd got things right at the back, we started to play more expansively. You had two new players in your back four tonight and I thought they looked more solid than last season but it takes time to get a back four to understand each other and work together. The question is, can Rodgers get them to do that?

I think Rodgers is a very intelligent coach and has the ability to do it, the question just has to be, when does the straw break the camel's back? I was hoping it was the Palace game last season.
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Offline Austin Powers

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2014, 11:54:35 pm »
I think Rodgers is a very intelligent coach and has the ability to do it, the question just has to be, when does the straw break the camel's back? I was hoping it was the Palace game last season.

Definitely. It won't be tonight because we were playing against a top side.

It'll happen if we start to lose in games when we'd have churned out a win or even a draw last season.

Offline Danyaals Kop

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2014, 11:57:55 pm »
Where's Steve Clarke at?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #219 on: August 26, 2014, 12:05:06 am »
Where's Steve Clarke at?

Out of work because he couldn't get West Brom to defend.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2014, 12:05:43 am »
I'd be interested to see what would happen if Sakho and Manquillo came into the team for Skrtel and Johnson.

We'd be instantly much better. But they'd still need time and proper coaching to be a perfect unit
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Offline Zlen

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #221 on: August 26, 2014, 12:07:59 am »
Out of work because he couldn't get West Brom to defend.

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Offline Gerry83

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #222 on: August 26, 2014, 12:21:07 am »
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an easy fix. Its a collective of both the personnel and the system.

It needs to be looked at. Not sure who's dealing with sorting out the defense from a coaching perspective but other avenues need to be explored. Whether that be a sole defensive coach or getting someone in like Carra to help.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #223 on: August 26, 2014, 12:33:26 am »
I'm frightened.
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Offline Hayer

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #224 on: August 26, 2014, 12:34:36 am »
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an easy fix. Its a collective of both the personnel and the system.

It needs to be looked at. Not sure who's dealing with sorting out the defense from a coaching perspective but other avenues need to be explored. Whether that be a sole defensive coach or getting someone in like Carra to help.

Carra coming in would be brilliant, considering he would have knowledge of Houllier and Rafa's methods in drilling a defence. Though saying that, it's another thing whether he has the ability to apply that himself on the training field.

I'm sure he could though.

Offline Pidalow

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #225 on: August 26, 2014, 12:37:11 am »
Individually i think our defenders bar Johnson are pretty good. Rodgers has to get them working together as a unit. We cant let in another 50 odd goals this season, if we do i dont think we will finish in the top 4.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #226 on: August 26, 2014, 12:38:48 am »
Carra coming in would be brilliant, considering he would have knowledge of Houllier and Rafa's methods in drilling a defence. Though saying that, it's another thing whether he has the ability to apply that himself on the training field.

I'm sure he could though.

Carra would be as potentially brilliant as Sherwood was for Spurs. And I loved Carragher as a player. But this is the fallacy people who don't get involved in the upper levels of the game fall into - ex-player=good coach/manager. Houllier and Rafa didn't play the same game as Rodgers. So how would Carragher or a defensive coach deal with a back four where the fullbacks are actually wingers?

There's a lot wrong with our defending, and our defensive coaching. Bringing in ex-players who have little to no experience is not the answer.

After all, Arsenal are no better or worse than before they hired Steve Bould.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #227 on: August 26, 2014, 12:42:08 am »
New season same old errors.

Offline ReeNah

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #228 on: August 26, 2014, 12:43:10 am »
We've let in 4 in 2 games... Times that by 18...

Maybe the midfield isn't giving enough cover? If we bring in Manquillo amd Sahko for Johnson and Skrtl, we'll have 3 new players and one that's only been here one season... Very risky no?
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Offline Nosss

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #229 on: August 26, 2014, 12:43:36 am »
We looked very good defensively for the first forty minutes today in my opinion. I'm hopeful we'll see more of that in the future. The first half ended up being marred by a silly individual error from a lad who was making his debut in a very tricky match, but there was something to be positive about there.

Once that goal went in it all went to pot, and that needs to be addressed. It looked like we got a bit desperate to score and that led to our shape going a little crazy, but I assume that's something that is learnt with time.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #230 on: August 26, 2014, 12:45:46 am »
We've let in 4 in 2 games... Times that by 18...

Maybe the midfield isn't giving enough cover? If we bring in Manquillo amd Sahko for Johnson and Skrtl, we'll have 3 new players and one that's only been here one season... Very risky no?
We aren't playing City away another 18 times.

Offline bornandbRED

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #231 on: August 26, 2014, 12:48:36 am »
Carra would be as potentially brilliant as Sherwood was for Spurs. And I loved Carragher as a player. But this is the fallacy people who don't get involved in the upper levels of the game fall into - ex-player=good coach/manager. Houllier and Rafa didn't play the same game as Rodgers. So how would Carragher or a defensive coach deal with a back four where the fullbacks are actually wingers?

There's a lot wrong with our defending, and our defensive coaching. Bringing in ex-players who have little to no experience is not the answer.

After all, Arsenal are no better or worse than before they hired Steve Bould.

So, pretty clear you consider this problem a big one. Do you reckon it could affect Rodgers' short term future at the club?

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #232 on: August 26, 2014, 12:49:17 am »
We aren't playing City away another 18 times.

But we are playing Stoke and Hull who we also conceded 3 against
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Offline RedMan89

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #233 on: August 26, 2014, 12:50:31 am »
We looked very good defensively for the first forty minutes today in my opinion. I'm hopeful we'll see more of that in the future. The first half ended up being marred by a silly individual error from a lad who was making his debut in a very tricky match, but there was something to be positive about there.

Once that goal went in it all went to pot, and that needs to be addressed. It looked like we got a bit desperate to score and that led to our shape going a little crazy, but I assume that's something that is learnt with time.

Right on the money. I remember something similar happened when crystal palace scored two quick goals last season. Our shape went all over the place as we lost the composure we had shown throughout the beginning of the match.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #234 on: August 26, 2014, 12:50:54 am »
But we are playing Stoke and Hull who we also conceded 3 against

Lets wait till we actually play them first.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #235 on: August 26, 2014, 12:51:04 am »
So, pretty clear you consider this problem a big one. Do you reckon it could affect Rodgers' short term future at the club?

 :butt

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #236 on: August 26, 2014, 12:51:39 am »
We've let in 4 in 2 games... Times that by 18...

Maybe the midfield isn't giving enough cover? If we bring in Manquillo amd Sahko for Johnson and Skrtl, we'll have 3 new players and one that's only been here one season... Very risky no?

When will this end? When will people stop trotting out that vague possible 'explanation'?

Could you please specify exactly what the midfield players are doing wrong or not doing correctly which results in "the midfield"  not "giving enough cover" to our defense?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 01:01:43 am by GrkStav »
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Offline bigbear

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #237 on: August 26, 2014, 12:52:58 am »
But we are playing Stoke and Hull who we also conceded 3 against
and United and Spurs who we conceded 0 against.

Obviously our defending needs to improve but Man City will have very few games this year where they have so few efforts on goal.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #238 on: August 26, 2014, 01:01:16 am »
Any errors for the first goal by any other player is minute compared to the glaring error by Moreno, that is not systematic but an individual error by a new player. If that mistake doesn't happen we likely continue to play like that for the rest of the game rather than having to chase.

I think that's too harsh on Moreno.

He was half-a-second or less too late in reacting to an unexpected headed 'clearance' by Lovren who had quickly to pick up and defend against Silva, who hadn't been tracked properly (gasp) by Gerrard.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #239 on: August 26, 2014, 01:02:33 am »
So, what's the educated consensus so far on how our midfield trio (both versions) fared, in terms of contributing to our defense?
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