Author Topic: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past  (Read 12715 times)

Offline RedChanel

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 07:00:42 am »
Which is kind of my point. Who created the burden? Suarez wasn't replaced despite us having the money to spend. Sturridge being injured just magnified the failings.

I think this is where the debate of whether the purchase decisions were made by Brendan alone or by the committee comes in.
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2015, 09:09:22 am »
Losing Suarez was never gonna be easy, and the club handled the recruitment of his replacement awefully.
Just as important, though, is that Sturridge and Gerrard have performed so poorly. If they had performed at last year's level we would've been ok. Not title-challenging, but top four.
I'm quite optimistic for next year though.
We finally have a good defense. Even Lovren looks ok now. We showed in the winter how we could squeeze out lots of wins with a pretty poor attack, just by beiny solid. I always doubted whether Brendan could ever do that.
We're unlikely to lose any important players.
Having a smaller transfer budget has historically been good for us.
A lot of our talents have been through their first season and wil hopefully be kore consistent next season.

Offline Giono

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2015, 12:12:13 pm »
People are discussing transfers and noting character issues, but wemmick's excellent list of caveats hasn't really been refuted. The key ones are that 1. many are saying that Rodgers young and learning and will improve over time but we witness him repeating a lot of mistakes
2. apart from the natural progression of a few individual players (Sakho, Coutinho, Henderson), we haven't really witnessed the team looking more complete, more professional, more mentally strong, more harmonious as a unit or expert in their roles as players. At least, I haven't, except that we have sometimes had greater width thanks to Moreno and Markovic/Ibe, although the latter two are not even wing backs. We still don't play with a high defensive line, we still can't really dominate possession with 'death-by-football' if we want to (except against weak sides who are happy to give us the ball, like West Brom) so we aren't a possession team really, and indeed we have lost our lightning counter attacks, and, very importantly as wemmick mentions above, our improved defence is simply due to having extra players with defensive roles in the team, rather than improved organisation (which is why I mentioned the high defensive line). We are also not at all a team that has mastered pressing. So there are huge tactical strides that we have yet to make, it's not only a personnel issue, although I know that the two are related.

Frankly, I am not entirely sure what Rodgers's desired style of play is, although if I had to guess I would say that it's some kind of superhuman fusion of the finest possession teams and the finest counter-attacking and pressing teams.

What concerns me in particular is the possibility that Rodgers intends to keep his back 4 defensive line where it is, and never push it up, and that he actually is out of ideas about how to improve defensive organisation and discipline.

It makes me wonder, is Liverpool and the pressure that comes with it, really the best place for a talented young manager to learn? Perhaps the spotlight is blinding him a little and the inability to breathe inhibiting him. At times it seems like he just needs a devil's advocate to grill him and keep his decision making objective and to share the burden of making tough decisions.

Excellent post and your last point about having a green manager at a big club is a question that I ask myself. I see Rodgers' potential, but potential takes time to come to fruition and it comes in bursts and troughs. And time is something that a big club like ours has in short supply. Each season outside of top 4 or trophyless is a failure. Compare that to a mid-table team like West Ham where their goal is survival while playing attractive football and if they are lucky a trip or two to Europa League or a Cup run. Lots of time and space to experiment.

One thing I would add to that big club challenge is that we are also trying to achieve with kids. That makes the demands for the manager even greater. I heard a pundit describe our FA Cup debacle as "players without a history of winning and a manager without a history of winning". Ferguson was able to win things with kids, but he had a history of winning already. He had a road map of roads he had already taken multiple times. Rodgers famously has his how-to manual, but that's a lot if theory rather than practice.

I think there is a very strong arguement for having an experienced manager over-seeing the development of our young players while still achieving things like the big club we are.
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Offline Giono

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2015, 12:22:02 pm »
Yep, but the DM has to be as comfortable playing BEHIND the defenders as he is in front of them. Lucas does the shielding part great, but he doesn't seem as comfortable dropping in all the way. The sweeper/keeper could help, for sure. But both central defenders then have to be happy to sit on the halfway line and not drop off at the first loss of possession

Interesting discussion PoP. What do you mean dropping all the way? I have seen Lucas many times in possession slide in behind an advancing CD that has the ball. Do you mean when we don't have the ball?
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Offline Giono

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2015, 12:29:39 pm »
I think some of it is a case of Rodgers either not sure of how he wants to work, or not sure where to look for what he wants.

A smart, visionary scout or DoF would be able to say to him "Write out the technical and physical profiles of your perfect formation starting 11". And from that you buy your players, plus the rotations in the key positions.

I don't know if we'd look for that kind of person though.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. Very well put sir. We need a common vision and the comittee is not really good at that. A DoF and the manager on the same page can share a vision and a project.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2015, 01:26:46 pm »
This is a well reasoned post. But it doesn't take into account one important caveat that everyone involved in competitive football will swear to.

Progress isn't linear.

Same manager, same methods, same players more or less, can perform like lions one season, and lambs the next. Even without massive changes in personnel.

Shanks - 1st, 7th, 1st, 5th
Rafa at Valencia - 1st, 5th, 1st
Ferguson at United - 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th
Houllier at Liverpool - 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th

It would be great if progress was linear. But it's not. What we can look at is the way the manager wants to play the game, and if it is congruent with what the best teams have done.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2015, 01:41:42 pm »
Frankly, I am not entirely sure what Rodgers's desired style of play is, although if I had to guess I would say that it's some kind of superhuman fusion of the finest possession teams and the finest counter-attacking and pressing teams.

I think that's exactly what it is, without the perjorative use of 'superhuman' implying it's some sort of impossibility. There's been some discussion about the video SerbianScouser posted a few days ago, with the most obvious point being the drop in counter attacking between last season's Liverpool and this.

But that discussion so far has overlooked something else clear from the Prozone graphs: last season's Liverpool counter attacked (as a proportion of it's activities with the ball) far less than any Rafa side did. Yes, we counter attacked - we exploited over committed opponents, at pace and with precision. Yet we also kept possession of the ball at times; we had spells of dominance and possession with a slower attacking buildup. The Arsenal and Everton games are illustrating examples; yes, we counter attacked at will, and tore them apart. But in both games we'd opened the scoring through set pieces early, forcing the opposition to commit men forwards. It's very difficult to counter attack at nil-nil (or trailing) against an opponent that's happy to sit tight.

Last season, we opened the scoring in 28 of 38 games; every one of those in the first half; 22 of them within the first half hour, 12 of them within the first 15 minutes. So far this, we've opened the scoring 21 times - 15 of those in the first half. That's going from the fastest starters in the league, to the 13th fastest (incidentally, City have gone from 2nd fastest to below average too, and similarly suffered in the table).

Again; how do you counter attack (literally, counter from an opposition attack), when the opposition doesn't need to attack?

You need to be able to create - and score - goals without the opposition leaving a nice 50 yards of open space for you to attack into. You need creativity, but you also need goalscorers. You need to be able to maintain possession, dominate the opposition and carve openings - as we did against West Brom for instance - and put them away; as we did not.

The best teams have always had the ability to score more than one type of goal; and not simply by sticking on a Plan B targetman. Plan A needs variety within itself. The best Liverpool sides always had this; the ability to dominate and probe; the ability to maintain and draw out the opposition; the ability to strike quickly and decisively at an opposition mistake or gap.

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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2015, 05:26:36 pm »
To see our own fans play down last season is mystifying to me. That season earns any manager the opportunity to fix his errors a season on. We took the piss out of Spurs enough when they sacked AVB, imagine if he took them from 7th to within a whisker of the title, playing breathtaking attacking football, and then sacking him the season after having lost their best player. We would be laughing our cocks off.

Brendan Rodgers deserves time. We deserve to see the plan when we brought him in honoured and brought to fruition. It was going to take time, so let it take time. We have already had more than a glimpse of how he can get us playing. I really fear we would only end up kicking ourselves if the baying mob that have appeared in the last month get their way.

I agree with the majority of what is a good post there, mate. There's a lot of truth to that first part in bold. The second part though makes me wonder a little; what is the plan at this point? Rodgers has adapted that plan from when he first arrived, more than once. Was last season it? Was the 'death by football' in the first season it? Are we reverting to the 'Swansea in red' approach, or the devastating transitional attacks? I'm not really sure at this point if i'm honest.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2015, 05:30:45 pm »
I agree with the majority of what is a good post there, mate. There's a lot of truth to that first part in bold. The second part though makes me wonder a little; what is the plan at this point? Rodgers has adapted that plan from when he first arrived, more than once. Was last season it? Was the 'death by football' in the first season it? Are we reverting to the 'Swansea in red' approach, or the devastating transitional attacks? I'm not really sure at this point if i'm honest.

Neither of them are mutually exclusive. They are all based on the same principles of mobility, width, penetration, quick movement of the ball and creating shots on target.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2015, 08:53:50 pm »
Agree with PoP there. Brendan is always happy to shake things up but the core principles always remain the same.

Offline Penfold78

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2015, 09:32:44 pm »
 
 We can dress this up and talk round the subject all we want but whoever managers under FSG has to conform to the same transfer strategy and operate in the same financial conditions. We have a fragile squad, threadbare in some respects if judged against Top 4 rivals. There is no magic wand for that. The conundrum of balancing available income with expectation at Anfield only has one solution right now, which is to buy young or buy risky, or both. There is no magic wand for this either. Hence Sturridge. Hence Balotelli. Hence Markovic.

As I'm increasingly fond of saying, it's not just about the manager. So he might have made a couple of bad judgements in terms of his personal transfer preferences in the summer, notably Lovren. But show me a manger who has never bought a few duff signings. If you ask me he's done more than brilliantly getting up a team with no strikers anywhere near the Top 4. And he's handled some major egos without too much uproar. He's handed Gerrard very well in my opinion, walking that tight rope between honouring him as spiritual connection with the fans and moving him on when it became obvious he wasn't ready to/able to compliment the pure Rogers way of playing.

 Last season was great, this season less so. Next season I think will be worse (just look at the squad...and the bedding in time that is necessary IF we get a new influx) and then it might get better after that. As I say, there is no magic wand. I'm in this for the long haul and I say "stick".

Offline Cid

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #51 on: May 4, 2015, 10:09:01 am »
We lack leaders on the pitch. Without Suarez, Gerrard and Sturridge there is nobody to drag us into games. The manager is not the sort to actively coach his team from the sidelines so we really need those leaders on the pitch.

This season IMO is the first time we've had to rely on Rodgers players. The majority of our best play last season came through players he inherited.

The criticisms of Rodgers this season are rarely about bottling, and to suggest people are rewriting history to fit some hate driven agenda is disingenuous. There are genuine concerns about Rodgers and that's why some are wondering whether he's worth sticking with going forward.

We need our manager to spend wisely, coach both defense and attack well and develop the side as well as his own managerial ability year on year.  Instead we look like we're again on the cusp of a rebuilding period... And from what Rodgers has shown us so far we're as likely to go backwards as we are forwards.

Even the people defending him are making conditions. He needs a df, or to take him out of transfers entirely, he needs better coaching staff and so on. Truth is the setup is exactly how Rodgers demands it, he has surrounded himself with inexperienced yes men and his ego will allow no help.

I wouldn't sack him without a plan in place, but if a klopp or a Rafa were available they'd be an improvement. I can hardly imagine what Rafa would do with 120m, but I know he wouldn't piss it up a wall like Rodgers did.

Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #52 on: May 4, 2015, 02:37:39 pm »
The focus is always on the manager for clues of our success/ failure.  But consider the role of the chairman and the career of John Smith, who was at the helm 1973-1990, an era of continuous success that has eluded the club since his departure.  He presided over Shankly, Paisley, Fagan & Dalglish eras. Smith deserves credit, the success is no coincidence, surely. 

So what was he doing right and how can we go back to it? Can Ayres take note, or is there a Smith mark II in the wings?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #53 on: May 4, 2015, 03:31:15 pm »
The focus is always on the manager for clues of our success/ failure.  But consider the role of the chairman and the career of John Smith, who was at the helm 1973-1990, an era of continuous success that has eluded the club since his departure.  He presided over Shankly, Paisley, Fagan & Dalglish eras. Smith deserves credit, the success is no coincidence, surely. 

So what was he doing right and how can we go back to it? Can Ayres take note, or is there a Smith mark II in the wings?

He was letting football men make football decisions, and backing them as long as most of those decisions were correct.


That's about the size of it for me.
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Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #54 on: May 4, 2015, 09:25:12 pm »
It was more than that. There was an attitude throughout the club, at every level. I remember a quote from Kenny Dalglish...along the lines that everyone at the club was great at their job. Too many passengers, atm, and not just on the playing staff ....we're tolerating mediocrity. The responsibility lies at the top of the tree.

On the playing side, we'd recruit players of a certain character.  The likes of Balotelli is the anti-thesis of that type. Luxury players like Llallana (hehe, the Welsh version) wouldn't get a second glance.

The scouting team knew what to look for in terms of character. And the coaching staff would encourage honest endeavor.

I've watched academy players being praised for dives and 'professional fouls'. Not the 'Liverpool way', imho. When Tommy Smith, Gerry Byrne of Graeme Souness tackled you, you knew, but it was honest, hard, but not snidey.


« Last Edit: May 4, 2015, 09:35:47 pm by RedBootsTommySmith »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #55 on: May 4, 2015, 09:51:00 pm »
It was more than that. There was an attitude throughout the club, at every level. I remember a quote from Kenny Dalglish...along the lines that everyone at the club was great at their job. Too many passengers, atm, and not just on the playing staff ....we're tolerating mediocrity. The responsibility lies at the top of the tree.

On the playing side, we'd recruit players of a certain character.  The likes of Balotelli is the anti-thesis of that type. Luxury players like Llallana (hehe, the Welsh version) wouldn't get a second glance.

The scouting team knew what to look for in terms of character. And the coaching staff would encourage honest endeavor.

I've watched academy players being praised for dives and 'professional fouls'. Not the 'Liverpool way', imho. When Tommy Smith, Gerry Byrne of Graeme Souness tackled you, you knew, but it was honest, hard, but not snidey.

While I agree with the bolded, I think it has to be noted that landscape of scouting has changed enormously since those days, where the catchment area was pretty much the British Isles. Nowadays to get a leg-up on the opposition, you have to be scouting in the favelas of Brazil as much as the Scottish Premier League. That means either a ton of scouts, or using statistics. And when you use statistics, you probably miss a number of players who might not be the best technical players, because "character" doesn't have a data point yet. That's probably a little bit of what is behind Rodgers' fascination with British players or Premier League proven players - you can see their "character" more readily and up close, more than you might be able to with a player from the Argentina third division, for example.
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Offline sinnermichael

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #56 on: May 4, 2015, 11:49:40 pm »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #57 on: May 5, 2015, 12:31:31 am »
Fantastic stuff from Tomkins.

It has to be good writing to keep me going to the end when it is talking about any sort of financial stuff :)
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Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #58 on: May 5, 2015, 01:19:44 am »

"character" doesn't have a data point yet.


Great line!  Nail on the head!
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #59 on: May 5, 2015, 02:10:55 pm »
Good read by Paul Tomkins:

http://tomkinstimes.com/2015/05/listen-up-fuckwits/
Agree with an awful lot of that his position on Rodgers, Benitez and klopp mirrors my own and actually understood what he was saying about finances but does that mean in reality we say goodbye to building our dynasty and have to be content at the occasional trophy
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Offline Matts

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #60 on: May 9, 2015, 10:57:12 pm »
PoP, may I ask, seeing as you have completed your coaching badges I just wanted to ask the following:
1. Moreno always seems to drift infield and also press high, which in turn has allowed teams to play in behind him. It's cost us a few goals this season and I can't understand why it hasn't been addressed. There are many an occasion you can see the play developing but no one either in the team seems to pick up on it. It can't bea tactical decision to have him defend like that can it? The opposite fullback doesn't seem to get caught out like that.


2. Our mids seem to struggle shielding our back 4 and are always ahead of the ball. Midfield runners aren't tracked and I feel this is the reason we concede frustrating goals/seem to be second best to second chance opportunities. Is this simply an untrained eye passing judgement?

Personally I think BR didn't inherit a team that was all that bad, I think Kenny changed our style of play tremendously before he came in. Kenny 's final season is when we set a record four the number of times we hit the woodwork. I can't really see the apparent progress we have made under Rodgers. Yes last season was amazing, forget about Luis and sturridge, and poor recruitment. Our play has been atrocious for a fair chunk of the season. I've been told my entire life that you cannot live on past accomplishments, why should he? Rafa was not afforded the same nor was Kenny after winning us our first trophy.

I'll put it out there, him scapegoating players turned me off him,  as has his penchant for waxing lyrical over and over again in regards to a few players. His man management leaves a lot to be desired in my eyes. My only issue with sacking him is,  is there any one out there we could get who would take this team forward without tearing it apart?
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Offline Smile01

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2015, 03:52:40 pm »
I think on this issue looking at individual or 'repeated' mistakes doesn't really make sense. Are these mistakes the same or do they look similar but actually have different causes. What discussions have taken place, what work done on the training pitch and in the analysis suite? Sometimes preparation can be brilliant in every rational aspect yet fail. Sometimes it might make sense to ask is the manager preparing to succeed/win? Is the plan a rational one? Has it been implemented well? When problems arise are best case solutions found?
You can plan for success but you cannot guarantee it. Is Brendan doing a good job? If the people on the ground who can see the work up close, who are party to the conversations on the training field etc. think yes then let him get on with it! I actually think that we are conflating two separate issues sometimes.
  1) Is Brendan's coaching/tactics/man management good enough?- Most of the evidence says yes.
  2) Does the club structure work/ are the people in post good enough? -juries out still
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Offline Smile01

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Re: Re-writing History, A Look to the Not So Distant Past
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2015, 07:12:21 pm »
...which all sounds quite strong. the opposite could be true. It depends on what is really going on, the work actually being carried out.
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