Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi  (Read 11960 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« on: October 25, 2012, 11:02:48 pm »
Fortress Anfield.

I don't know what the stats were but that's three clean sheets on the trot. Mind you, Anzhi weren't up to much. It must be a real bother for them having to fly for six or seven hours when usually it's only one hour in a plane for home games. But we kept them out, Jones saved a couple of handy ones and suddenly we look solid. Not too solid, though. Not when you're still playing from out the back with a one goal lead and five minutes on the clock but dash it all to hell, man, that's proper football!

How do we like Sahin as the controller? Is he the new Lucas/Allen with added corners? He certainly put in a shift tonight.

How do we like Downing as a marauding left back? And as he has demonstrated he can do more than stand on his swinger with his well taken goal (although the Anzhi keeper seemed utterly bewildered), he's already better than Riise...

How do Anzhi like Eto'o as coach, central midfielder, chief pointer and glarer? Watch out Ibrahimovic, there are bigger egos still out there.

On the worrying side, we are getting into the habit of losing the ball when it gets to Suarez. It's all or nothing with this guy, he'll either shin it five yards away from himself or he'll do the defender and bear down on goal all with one touch. There's very little middle ground. Maybe he was a bit leggy.

One moment stood out a little for me, on about 50 minutes when Gerrard headed narrowly wide, and only because it started with a lump up to someone's head. Nice that we still do that occasionally, it seemed to take them by surprise.

Finally, I still don't know why Johnson went off, and I can't complain after Downing deputised so ably, but he really is a Rolls Royce of a player. Fast and strong, composed and daring, he looked easily our most potent weapon in the first half when he linked up very well with Assaidi (who also deserves a mention, standout performance from the new McManaman). Johnson put him clean away several times with a glorious right foot, inside out the full back pass and got beyond Assaidi himself to good effect. But then his replacement won the game so what do I know?

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 11:43:43 pm »
Somebody on the main board compared Assaidi to Jinky Johnstone - a brilliant observation. He was a delight tonight and possibly Liverpool's best player. I just love the way he doesn't give up. You think he's run into a bit of a cul-de-sac and suddenly he drops a shoulder, spins round and he's facing the poor defender again with Plan B on the menu. I love his temperament too. Pure composure even when shirts are being pulled and kicks aimed at his shins. Suarez could do with a bit of what he's got.  Rodgers has got a hell of a problem now. Suso, Sterling and Assaidi, all making a case for the wide spots. I'm thrilled they're all Liverpool players.

Sterling was excellent too when he came on. He was up against Zhirkov, one of the most accomplished full backs in the world game, but Sterling was actually too strong for him, as well as too quick. It's a pity he didn't offload to Suarez after his diagonal run across the Anzhi defence near the end. But it speaks volumes about his self-belief that he tried to finish the stupendous act of self-creation himself. I like Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lennon and Walcott (honestly, I do). But none of them are as good as Sterling. And Sterling will simply get better.

Other than that we were pretty poor in attack tonight. Luis was unbelievably profligate, Shelvey a little wooden and Stevie way below his best. Shelvey, in particular, must be disappointed. He missed the night's biggest chance, just as he missed the biggest chance v Reading on Saturday.  On both occasions it was poor control that let him down. A real crime in a Rodgers side you would think.

The defence was great I thought. The centre backs made some wonderful tackles and interceptions and coped with the heavy stuff near the end. Wisdom was almost immaculate. People are calling him a 'beast' now, and you can see why. But he's not a 'beast'. He's a thinking player, an artiste. A bloody strong one as it happens, but a player who relies on his wits as much as his muscle.

Finally I don't know how much Eto'o's being paid. Someone said he is currently the best paid player on the planet. If he is, he's obviously taking the piss. He was motionless tonight. Neither a midfielder or an attacker. It was a pretty disgraceful performance, made even more so when he was laughing as he cocked up yet again near the end. It's fitting I suppose. He's taking money for doing nothing, just as the owner of the football club did when he assembled his own fortune.

Moment of the night. Sterling beating Samba in the air to set up the Gerrard chance.

Not a great game, perhaps, but we're gonna be a great team under Rodgers. No question.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:01:41 am by yorkykopite »
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2012, 12:28:37 am »
Fortress Anfield.

I don't know what the stats were but that's three clean sheets on the trot. Mind you, Anzhi weren't up to much. It must be a real bother for them having to fly for six or seven hours when usually it's only one hour in a plane for home games. But we kept them out, Jones saved a couple of handy ones and suddenly we look solid. Not too solid, though. Not when you're still playing from out the back with a one goal lead and five minutes on the clock but dash it all to hell, man, that's proper football!

How do we like Sahin as the controller? Is he the new Lucas/Allen with added corners? He certainly put in a shift tonight.

How do we like Downing as a marauding left back? And as he has demonstrated he can do more than stand on his swinger with his well taken goal (although the Anzhi keeper seemed utterly bewildered), he's already better than Riise...

How do Anzhi like Eto'o as coach, central midfielder, chief pointer and glarer? Watch out Ibrahimovic, there are bigger egos still out there.

On the worrying side, we are getting into the habit of losing the ball when it gets to Suarez. It's all or nothing with this guy, he'll either shin it five yards away from himself or he'll do the defender and bear down on goal all with one touch. There's very little middle ground. Maybe he was a bit leggy.

One moment stood out a little for me, on about 50 minutes when Gerrard headed narrowly wide, and only because it started with a lump up to someone's head. Nice that we still do that occasionally, it seemed to take them by surprise.

Finally, I still don't know why Johnson went off, and I can't complain after Downing deputised so ably, but he really is a Rolls Royce of a player. Fast and strong, composed and daring, he looked easily our most potent weapon in the first half when he linked up very well with Assaidi (who also deserves a mention, standout performance from the new McManaman). Johnson put him clean away several times with a glorious right foot, inside out the full back pass and got beyond Assaidi himself to good effect. But then his replacement won the game so what do I know?

Control is the key word with Rodgers performances. He aims to control as much of the game as possible and therefore when Anzhi look poor I ask myself how much of that is simply his players imposing his system on the opposition.  A clean sheet is a clean sheet and Jones is certainly looking good for someone I would have ranked as our 3rd/4th choice in July.

Whilst I like Sahin as a footballer I think when we play him in that role we loose the best part of his game (popping up late in the box) and he is some way below Lucas & Allen in his ability to play that controller role also. At a push, he does a job there and his reading of the game and passing is excellent. Is he less mobile that Allen? Not sure what it is but he just doesn´t seem as effective there. Then again I´m not sure how Allen would fare in a midfield 3 of Shelvey and Gerrard. I think you definately need 2 disciplined midfielders in the middle. Sahin really chooses his moments well in when to bomb forward. SHelvey and Gerrard both seem to go when they feel the urge to do so which at times leaves us short when a move breaks down.

I think Downing is totally ineffective now as a winger. I complimented his performance to the commies tonight early on when he appeared to have taken Rodgers words onboard and was working hard for the side. He just never looked like a threat to Zhirkov though bar one nutmeg, which he failed to collect on the otherside anyway. He does seem far more effective overlapping a more capable winger though. If he has any future here then it´s as a fullback IMO. That said, if we can get a winger transfer fee and his wages off the books we could get a much better replacement for far less. Plus I fail to see how he would ever be a better alternative to Robinson out there.

I always loved watching Eto'o play. That wasn´t Samuel Eto'o out there. I think Ali Dia of Southampton made a comeback.

As for Suarez, I really think he should have started on the bench on Saturday. Failing that, he should not have started tonight. Playing at altitude like he did is no joke. His feet will literally feel like lead for up to a week after. For someone who relies on close control and deft touches as much as he does, it´s almost imposible for him to do so like that. Hopefully he´s back to his best this weekend.

I can only assume we are giving Johnson a little break. Or maybe he felt something twinge during half time? Regardless it was a good move as I am all for protecting your most important players and on this form, Johnson is certainly that. Personally I'd have had Henderson on instead of Stevie tonight from the start and rested Suarez also. If we get a result v Everton then Rodgers was spot on. Regardless the decision has seen us through this group now so we can take it a little easier after this.

As for Shelvey.... he is a bit hit and miss with his shooting at the moment. Thing I would say is he reminds me of a young Frank Lampard in the positions he seems to be taking up. Once it clicks we will have a proper goal scoring midfielder on our books and they cost a pretty penny in football today. Also it does take young players a while to add goals to their game so I´m happy to look at it as part of a vital learning curve in the hope a 15 goal a season midfielder is born out of this in a few years.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2012, 06:46:59 am »
Babu - you gave me a flashback to my youth there. My Dad would tell me at almost every game "You're only as good as you get license to be" - sides tagged "disappointing" are sometimes described that way despite the fact their opponents strangled their license to play. I thought we were mostly good without the ball, and it told.

A game of five exclamations for me:

1. The goal.
2. Sterling's flick on.
3. "Aah Big Man!" as Gerrard nods wide to end the same move.
4. "What a player?!" as Sterling traverses the defensive funnel and eschews Suarez's pleas to shoot on goal himself.
5. Agger, Downing and Assaidi (was it?) worked it out one touch from the left hand corner (this was after Downing's scary one to Skrtel) and we're off up field - "Christ, we're good!"

Assaidi is getting a lot of praise - I just wish he had an afterburner on him. That's all he lacks - that and a howitzer shot.

Offline StevenLFC

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2012, 07:04:28 am »
I was surprised to see such a strong side ahead of the derby, but I guess Brendan Rodgers feels he can play these guys twice in less than 72 hours. Hopefully he's right, after all I remember us facing Arsenal just a few days after drawing 1-1 wi Hearts and we looked very tired.

To the game itself, we'll Anzhi really were poor. They offered very little, and seemed happy just to sit back and lump hopeful balls up to Eto'o. I thought we passed the ball well, and (this is sounding like a broken record now!) we created a few clear chances, but failed to convert them.

Assaidi reminds me a little bit of Baros in that he gets the ball and thinks "Right, get me head down and fucking bail it towards their byline!" I actually don't mind that. In a team that is in danger of getting penned in if the opposition press high, he could be a very good outlet, rather than a big hoof towards Suarez.

Three clean sheets on the spin is an encouragement too. Anzhi didn't offer much going forward to be fair, but we did deal with what they threw at us pretty comfortably. Andre Wisdom looks like he's been playing first team football for years. He can still improve, especially offensively, but he's doing a very good job at the moment.

Offline RooiBefok

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2012, 09:20:47 am »
I hate detracting from the positive result of last night but in my opinion Gerrard is fast becoming a real concern to me.  Whilst everyone is commentating on how Shelvey was a passenger throughout the game, I kept getting the distinct impression that Gerrard was “ignoring” Jonjo and “excluding” him from the game.  This resulted in Shelvey having to continually track back deep in order to pick up the ball from Sahin when he should have been staying up front and receiving service from Gerrard.

Furthermore, once we had gone 1-0 ahead, Gerrard seemed to be doing his best to get himself onto the score sheet which resulted in him breaking up play through doing his own thing.

Is Gerrard perhaps becoming “selfish” as he starts to loose pace and comes up against competition from younger Players who are better suited to Rodgers’ style of play?

Wisdom and Assaidi were simply superb last night and Jones, Skrtel, Agger, Sahin, Sterling and Downing weren’t too shabby either.

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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2012, 09:22:54 am »
Bump indeed Roy.

Really enjoyable game, despite the bitter cold.  That felt like the first game of the winter to me.

First half we controlled, we pressed, but we looked light up front.  After hearing all the talk about Anzhi and how they were the new chelsea and were going to rip us a new one, I was slightly shocked at how crap they were.  Or was it our sexy passing that made them look ordinary?

Second half there was much more urgency and Sterling definitely added a new dimension.  How amazing that Sterling has become the player that gets rested unless absolutely necessary!  Downing had his best game in ages (probably since the league cup final).  His goal was superbly taken and his linkup in the second half with Assaidi was superb.

With Assaidi there are shades of a McManaman, right down to the infuriating way he insists on beating his man a 4th time rather than shooting!  But he does look an exciting prospect.

I'd agree with the OP about the way Suarez loses the ball.  It's like he feels the need to prove himself every game, which is a noble thing, but sometimes a simple pass is all you have to do.

Special mention goes to Wisdom though, what a player for his age.  I know a lot see him as a natural centre-back, but his attacking runs were superb last night... plus he can defend!

Enjoyable night out, even if it took me an hour to warm up in the car, for the long drive home.

Everton will be 'interesting'

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 09:39:44 am »
making a decent side look ordinary. Check.

we are still making ordinary sides look good from time to time so its horses for courses.

Assidi was good last nigh. Gerrard was poor.

And for the first time in his liverpool career thus far, Suarez annoyed me last night. If the nutmegs dont come off, he's a bit of a liability.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 10:05:19 am »
Three clean-sheets in a row should not be underestimated given how our defence started the season. We seem to have cut-out the silly individual mistakes and there was a sense of when we were under serious pressure we were happy to launch the ball rather than attempting to play our way out of trouble. There was still a couple of moments had me on the edge of my seat, one when Downing played a suicidal ball across the goal to Skrtel but the other occasion when we were under some pressure but after a few one touch passes Assaidi was running down the wing and we created a good opportunity.

Some great individual performances, Assaidi looked like he had his man on toast throughout the game, beating him inside and outside at will. He created a few good opportunities and had a couple of shots. One moment in the second half when Gerarrd (I think) sprayed a ball out to him and in one movement he flicked the ball through his legs and was sprinting down the wing was amazing. Wisdom is showing talent beyond his years, Jones looked secure in goal and Sterling gave a superb cameo performance when he came on.

Would like to have seen Gerrard and Suarez substituted for very different reason though. I think it would have been sensible to have taken Gerrad off after 60-70 minutes to help him prepare for the next game while someone like Henderson may have helped secure the middle of the park which seems to become a bit open every time we score. Suarez should have come off as he was just giving the ball away with alarming regularity. He seemed to become more and more annoyed with his performance but rather than try a few simple things to play himself back into the game, he continued to try extravagant tricks or passes. One occasion near the end of the game when he won a free kick and played a quick pass was criminal at a time when we should have been running the clock down.

Last mention should go to the referee who I thought had a great game. Was not fooled by any players going to ground easily from either team and let the game flow.
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Offline Garcepticon

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 10:13:10 am »
I really don't think Shelvey brought much tonight, he came deep a lot of the time to receive the ball which I don't think was needed since we had Sahin and Gerrard to recycle the ball and spread the play. The player who picked the ball up between the lines was Suarez, which presents a bit of a problem - who does he then move the ball too? Shelvey, to his credit, moved beyond him once or twice but he really didn't do thatoften enough for it to be effective. I think Suarez should be playing at the tip of the diamond in midfield if we put a CF ahead of him then that would create space infront for him to move into/ and thenwhenhe playsittothe LW/RWtherewillbe someone to aim for in the middle. When we get the ball in wide positions Suarez always drops to the edge of the area, it just isn't the percentage run to make.IfShelvey isn't making the run thata No.9 might make to the near post then the CBs are not occupied and going out wide is rendered ineffective.

If we were to put Suarez at the tip of the diamond and put two behind him I would be incredibly excited with Allen/Lucas as the '2'. Lucas would provide immense defensive solidity and recycling of the play whilst Allen would be able to carry the ball up the pitch and takeplayers outthe game. Furthermore,Allen has shown some real competency as a holding midfielder and I wouldn't be surprised if we kept a number of clean sheets with Allen and Lucas as a '2' and Suarez as the 1 would provide fantastic attacking impetus.

TL;DR, Suarez picks up the ball like a No. 10 and doesn't move like a No.9 as a result our crosses are wasted and the opposition defence isn't stretched vertically when we counter attack.

Downing is solid, he does his defensive work really well but he
doesn't go round the outside of players often. Unfortunately our wingers  need to provide a goal threat - David Villa/Pedro
 would be revelation for us, he is exactly what we need from our wide players.

Andre Wisdom was incredible tonight.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:26:39 am by Garcepticon »

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 10:17:44 am »
That was quick. Go to bed and there's no round table, wake up and it's flourishing out here. Do you guys never sleep?
The first half was a weird one to watch. Never felt much threat from them, but a nagging feeling we didn't have a goal in us. The problems for me focused on the right-hand side, which offered no incisiveness, with Wisdom understandably conservative and Downing being, well, the Downing we've come to know and mutter under our breath about. Assaidi was full-blooded but you never felt - and I'm sure Anzhi did not - that he was going to threaten a goal of his own. Which leaves Suarez being double-marked out of the game and showing increasing signs of frustration with the whole set-up, Gerrard trying too hard, and Johnson doing almost the same. The switch to fullback was slightly more successful if only because Anzhi regarded him as such a kitten by that stage they allowed him the space to get his shot off.
I think what will give us the balance we're lacking - even before we (I sincerely hope) forage into the January transfer market - is Lucas. Lucas will allow whoever of Allen/Sahin/Gerrard to be more purposeful going forward. (Even during two mediocre performances, Gerrard and Suarez still exhibited, at times, a real understanding whereas Shelvey does not.) It would allow Gerrard to be tried in that inside right berth, perhaps.
I didn't like Rodgers's propulsion of Downing towards the kop at the end. I've always thought he was an honest manager. That was, like the three envelopes, a clumsy gesture and one that fooled no one, least of all Downing. But that's a ps/minor/ unimportant. Big plus remains seeing us with a really coherent footballing identity.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:19:27 am by No666 »

Offline belfast-connection

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 10:27:23 am »
I really don't think Shelvey brought much tonight, he came deep a lot of the time to receive the ball which I don't think was needed since we had Sahin and Gerrard to recycle the ball and spread the play.


Jonjo picked the ball up and spread it well at times i thought

the goal came from him spreading it wide left and he pushed through a pass to put suarez in on goal shortly after that

the lad's game is not just about making late runs
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Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 10:39:40 am »
I was surprised to see such a strong side ahead of the derby, but I guess Brendan Rodgers feels he can play these guys twice in less than 72 hours. Hopefully he's right, after all I remember us facing Arsenal just a few days after drawing 1-1 wi Hearts and we looked very tired.

To the game itself, we'll Anzhi really were poor. They offered very little, and seemed happy just to sit back and lump hopeful balls up to Eto'o. I thought we passed the ball well, and (this is sounding like a broken record now!) we created a few clear chances, but failed to convert them.

Assaidi reminds me a little bit of Baros in that he gets the ball and thinks "Right, get me head down and fucking bail it towards their byline!" I actually don't mind that. In a team that is in danger of getting penned in if the opposition press high, he could be a very good outlet, rather than a big hoof towards Suarez.

Three clean sheets on the spin is an encouragement too. Anzhi didn't offer much going forward to be fair, but we did deal with what they threw at us pretty comfortably. Andre Wisdom looks like he's been playing first team football for years. He can still improve, especially offensively, but he's doing a very good job at the moment.

I don't agree with your assessment of Assaidi. I am more inclined towards what Yorky wrote about him in this thread. The guy has pace, skills to take opposition defenders on and he is very intelligent with his decision making. If you can watch the Mostars Assaidi compilation (posted in Assaidi thread). The guys know when to take defenders on and when to keep it simple. Also I think he links up very well with his fullback and makes his runs as situation demanded. Its not like Enrique who just gives ball to his winger and immediately sets off forward expecting him to find him without taking note of positioning of opposition on field. Assaidi always makes the right run in space to be able to receive the ball from his fellow player. He also stays back to cover over lapping fullback. So for me he makes smart decision based on game situation. If we are at it I think Suarez was headless chicken in this game and not the Assaidi.


Also I think he seems very composed when he is dribbling and makes good decisions very quickly. Unfortunately it didn't come off but he almost set Suarez with a perfect through ball. He was dribbling past the fullback and I don't know how he spotted Suarez's run and still maintained that composure to pick out that pass perfectly. Its only last ditch defending that prevent Suarez from getting one on one with goal keeper.

Apart from this I though we played very well. Wisdom, Assaidi, Sahin were impressive. Sterling looked good when he come on and on another day would have had two goals or assist. I think he is amazing and with experience and excellent decision making (which is already impressive), he will become an amazing player for us. Agger and Skertel were boss and dealt with everything that got thrown at them. I just love Agger as pure footballer. Its just an amazing site to see this great dane making his elegant strides from back. As Yorky, Roy and similarly talented posters on this forum previously mentioned, he completely changes the situation on field when he steps out with ball. This forces opposition player to come out and create his on passing options. If they don't, then we know what a good dribbler and sweet striker of ball Agger is. He is gem and I am really happy that he decided to stick with us. If I have a choice, I wouldn't sell Agger irrespective of the offer since he is one of the rare breed. I like footballers who force the situation and create their own options than the one who wait around hoping their team mates to provide them passing options.

I though Jones was pretty good whenever he was called into action but I think the sooner Pepe comes back, the better. Like Agger, Pepe also contributes a lot in terms of rodgers footballing philosophy. With Pepe/Agger we always get an extra presence in midfield.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:42:07 am by RedSuarez »
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Offline lachesis

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 11:13:11 am »
It's baffling how we can stick five past Norwich in a single game, yet shortly afterwards score two goals in three games against similar level opposition. Three clean sheets but only two goals scored in last three - all of them home games and all of them should have been more comfortable. That's a big problem we have.

To be honest, despite some good performances from the younger lot again, I really had a nagging feeling that Anzi were going to pull one back even though they were not in the game as an attacking force. Thankfully they didn't. The defence has improved a lot and started to gel together in its current formation and personnel, but I don't think it's strong enough to protect one-nils properly yet against decent or good opposition, which leads me heading into the derby a bit nervous to be honest.

The midfield was really disappointing. Gerrard, Sahin and Shelvey all failed to put a mark of any kind on the game. It was left to Assaidi and Suarez to carry the fight, and it was only because Anzi were so devoid of any ambition that we looked comfortable. We're starting to grow and improve but there is still a massive corner to turn in terms of end product which is ultimately what leads to consistency.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 11:22:03 am »
Thought Sahin was excellent as a controller. Was by far our best midfielder. I thought Gerrard and Shelvey were anonymous but Sahin ran the show and was solid defensively. I think that Sahin has proven that he is our best controller alongside Allen. We will always need one of Allen or Sahin to play in any game we play under Rodgers.

I thought it was a mistake to play Gerrard and Suarez last night. Thats not me speaking in hindsight, but I honestly don't see what they offered us that Henderson and Yesil couldn't have done. Suarez especially was a liability giving the ball away for fun. They will bot be knackered for the derby and I expect more of the same from the both of them because of it.

The back line was excellent. Assaid looked like a very special player last night. His intelligence and control of the ball while running at pace is ridiculous. That should have cemented his place in the first team after the derby which will allow us to rest Sterling more as he, Sterling and Suso can duke it out for the wide posistions.


Another clean sheet, and 2 wins in a row. 4 wins from 6. Not too bad. Things seem to be coming along, but the real test will be how we handle Sunday.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2012, 11:57:22 am »
Managed to get to this one. And aside from the fat twat sat next to me moaning for 90mins, I throughly enjoyed it.

I'd wondered out loud in Assaidi's thread pre-match whether he'd be the sort of player who built up our hopes initially, only to slowly chip them away the more we saw of him.

There's no doubt the lad can dribble, and carry the ball. And there's no doubt that we badly need that player and that outlet. And we have for some time. But I needed convincing that he could do the other stuff you need from a winger. Whether he could play with his head up, what his movement was like off the ball,  whether he had a goal in him and a final ball.

Last night he did a lot to dampen any such concerns.

I do think some of the praise has been a little over the top. Often times he does dribble forward, cut inside in to traffic, move the ball sideways or back to his fullback. The stuff that Downing and others are derided for. But he does it quicker, and he throws in a step over or two. And so he's praised for it. C'est la vie.

That's but a footnote though, it was an exciting performance full of promise.

Assaidi can beat a man for fun. It's uncanny. But it's no use in isolation. An end product needs to follow, there was glimpses last night that he potentially has one. Having only seen the action the once I might be misremembering but I can recall a few cut backs that were dangerous, namely one to Suarez(?) that he might've done better with. As well as a good pass to set Sterling away down the right.

Head up. awareness and ability to find his man. It was very encouraging.

We've not seen a lot of his ability to put a ball in to the box, but then we've got nobody there for him to aim for. So that doesnt fall on him.

I look forward to seeing more of him. He could be a game changer from the bench for sure, but perhaps he could be much more. And we need him to be really, Raheem could do with someone to ease the pressure on him.

Seeing as I've mentioned it already I suppose the next port of call should be our goal scorer. Or lack thereof.

Not exactly anything new for a round table, it will probably come up again after Sunday. And in every round table until we sign someone. But we really do miss that player.

Suarez has many qualities but he's not a no9. Last night the amount of times he laboured to get in to the box and how reluctant he was to be that guy in the middle, the one around the 6 yard box, well, it was numerous.

He so clearly prefers being the one to mop up for a bit further back. He's trying to play off of someone who simply isnt there. With Lucas being out and us now reverting to a '2 and a 1' I'd like to see Suarez operate in the '1'. Just to see how it played out. Shelvey's form continues to fluctuate, Rodgers seems to prefer Gerrard deeper (we'll get to that) so, I dunno. I just think it might bring the best out of Luis having someone in front of him rather than just space and defenders. Who that man is remains to be seen. I guess Yesil would be the front runner right now. And im not sure he's ready.

There's no end in sight for this one, and indeed no insight provided from myself there particularly, but it does remain an issue.

Gerrard was poor. Again. He looked slow, tired and couldnt put his foot on the ball. Particularly in the first half. Lucas can't return soon enough so that we can see what Rodgers truly has in mind for Stevie, because it cant be this.

What else? Wisdom was a beast. Comfortably MoTM, but then he is a beast so im not surprised.

Defence looked solid and Anzi got nothing out of them, the odd Downing mistake aside. Anzhi looked poor though, and Etoo seemed to be doing that whole cliche of a big name player moving to a small-ish club and attempting to be a playmaker, even if they've never done it before. It didnt work for him or them.

Sahin? I'm nonplussed so far. Can't figure him out.

Jones continues to be an able deputy, pleased for him. And us.

So overal a bit of a mixed bag. Some questions look to perhaps be resolving themselves whilst other remain in the murky middle distance. Seems about right for this stage in Rodgers' development of the team.

A good result and I'm happy to see the manager taking the competition seriously. We needed 3 points in this one and he sent out a team worthy of taking them, which they did. Happy days.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:56:38 pm by Cpt_Reina »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 12:47:26 pm »
Thoughts about the game

I still have a number of concerns

Downing is not a fullback - his passing was generally poor highlighted by that pass across the box - I'm sure I was told at the age of 4 not to pass across the box..........but the concern isn't Downing at fullback, its a manager who puts Downing at fullback - what is the thinking?

Suarez and Gerrard in the last 20 minutes - Suarez had lost the plot he'd had a frustrating game, he was visibly tiring and he wasn't subbed off despite the game at the weekend, despite the % chance of injury being highest in the last minutes of a game and being our only striker - Gerrard has shown that he struggles to put in two high quality games in a week - he had played poorly giving away too many balls - again both managerial decisions I'd question.

I want Rodgers to succeed, I want us to succeed and no doubt he'll do plenty I disagree with to make that happen but I dont see the logic behind those three decisions.

I'm still not convinced we have the purpose we need in attack - the tempo of our game needs to get higher and I wouldn't be praising the kind of performance we saw yesterday.

After we scored we lost control of the game and the opposition had their best spell - they didn't score, was that really down to our defending ? I dont think so - Skrtel and Agger did some excellent stuff and Wisdom played a blinder but they had little cover or help Sahin again looked laboured when being asked to get back - the opposition forwards didn't play well but still created half chances easily - one hits the back of the net and we'd once again be moaning about our lack of finishing.

we looked like we had no idea how to win and the game looked open and stretched for the last 15 minutes - nor did we look like we knew how to kill the game off whether it was Jones ( he can't kick it very far can he?) failing to reach the opposition half, wasting corners or taking quick free kicks with a couple of minutes left - its was sloppy and it lacked cohesion and control - results will continue to be up and down if results are mainly based on the quality of the opposition strikers rather than of our own.

as always a lot of reaction is based on the result - the result is good but for me the performance largely wasn't -

having said that I thought Assaidi did well and seemed to revel in the space he was given - you have to question his strength on the ball (he must weigh about 2 stone dripping wet) and final delivery but he showed good balance and control along with tenacity and fight on occasion

also have to give the thumbs up to Wisdom I had my doubts when he played in the stiffs - occasionally he would be slow to react and look a little cumbersome but he was superb last night

all in all, must do better
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Offline Kwaideng

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 01:07:43 pm »
I don't need to comment now after reading that from  Vulmea. Excellent, summed it up for me to a T.

 On Assaidi, I can recall Bruno Conti doing the exact same little dummy from the cross field ball and spinning down the line with it. I copied it myself for years, it looks great when it comes off. The lad is a spark of excitement and his pace puts doubt and fear into defenders but if he could shoot like Conti then we would have a player alright.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2012, 01:23:10 pm »
Downing is not a fullback - his passing was generally poor highlighted by that pass across the box - I'm sure I was told at the age of 4 not to pass across the box..........but the concern isn't Downing at fullback, its a manager who puts Downing at fullback - what is the thinking?

Johnson had to go off with a back injury - the only other option would have been to bring Carragher on as his replacement.

By moving Downing to LB he only needed to make one substitution, if he bought Carragher on he would eventually have needed to make two substitutions as Downing was having a bad game at RW.

Remember also that our winning goal was scored by our newly promoted LB also, some may have called it an inspired move.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2012, 01:26:44 pm »
The style of play was disappointing to me. We had lots of players having good individual games but that earlier team spirit and working seems to have largely gone. I think we're reining back the 'pretty passing football' in attempt to win games. We're not Stoke obviously, but I'd like to see that style make a welcome return. Overall we did very well but finishing remains a problem to us. There was good movement and decent understanding all over the park and we looked largely composed. The opposition had it in them to hurt us but they too are more of a group of individuals rather than a team. I'd expect us to regain what Rodgers was trying to do once we're comfortable and have a few points chalked up on the board. A very welcome win and a good game of football to watch with a lot going on. Very happy.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2012, 01:31:16 pm »
Not exactly anything new for a round table, it will probably come up again after Sunday. And in every round table until we sign someone. But we really do miss that player.

Suarez has many qualities but he's not a no9. Last night the amount of times he laboured to get in to the box and how reluctant he was to be that guy in the middle, the one around the 6 yard box, well, it was numerous.

He so clearly prefers being the one to mop up for a bit further back. He's trying to play off of someone who simply isnt there. With Lucas being out and us now reverting to a '2 and a 1' I'd like to see Suarez operate in the '1'. Just to see how it played out. Shelvey's form continues to fluctuate, Rodgers seems to prefer Gerrard deeper (we'll get to that) so, I dunno. I just think it might bring the best out of Luis having someone in front of him rather than just space and defenders. Who that man is remains to be seen. I guess Yesil would be the front runner right now. And im not sure he's ready.


On the train home I heard a lot of 'Suarez isn't getting enough support', 'Suarez needs someone up there to help him out' but I don't believe we have the players to support him as a false 9 and I will illustrate why below.

If Rodgers is sending Suarez out onto the field of play under the proviso that he is a false 9, then I believe his system is flawed. In this role Suarez would be charged with picking up the ball 'between the lines' as he does a lot of the time. From here Suarez has a number of options, A) play it out wide for a cross, B) play in someone making an overlapping run (the sort of run Pedro and Villa make) or C) drive directly at the defence. I will now outline why I believe, most of the time, all three of these options are ineffective.

Our problem with option A, playing it out wide for a cross, is that no one attacks the six yard box. Furthermore, the loss of Maxi/Bellamy/Kuyt means that we no longer have players who hit the back post with any regularity. As such when we go out wide we rarely convert crosses into chances or goals because we don't have the players to convert these crosses. Having Suarez as our false 9 exacerbates this problem because he takes up the position of the CF who would be attacking that six yard box. The below screenshot illustrates how poorly we position ourselves in the box.



As stated by Cpt Reina, Suarez is not the type to move like a No.9 and when we cross the ball this means that no one occupies the CBs, no one attacks the six yard box and no one hits the back post - result? Poor conversion rates on crosses.

Our problem with option B, playing someone in from an overlapping run, is that no one makes those runs. Right now we have Assaidi, who stays close to the touchline (from my seat in the Lower Centenary this seemed to be the case), Downing who potentially has the pace but not the intelligence or the hunger to score goals, Sterling - who is capable of this - ala Reading, and Suso who doesn't have that in his locker, yet. The below screenshot is, I think, a standard capture of where Suarez usually picks up the ball, between the lines and facing the goal. I've put two arrows for runs into space that could be made to support him - but as you can see Assaidi is occupying a centre back (one of the rare times he did this) and Sterling is out of the picture near the sidelines. In short, it illustrates the poor attacking support that our LW/RW offer Suarez when he picks up the ball in dangerous positions. Sterling has real pace but perhaps he is too young to be expected to make these runs all of the time, after all young players tend to be inconsistent and so relying on a 17 year old as your main source of overlapping runs is a haphazard strategy.



If Rodgers analyses this situation pragmatically surely he can see that we lack the players to give Suarez the support from wide positions and as such he can only pass it outwide for a players to hit the byline - which as stated is ineffective. It is not just this run from a wide position, but the lack of a midfield runner in Jonjo Shelvey. Occasionally Jonjo makes late runs into the box, but how often have we seen a midfielder make the kind of run that the guy below makes past Eto'o? This is where I have a problem with Sahin at the top of the midfield triangle, he doesn't have much acceleration and as such he can't really offer that sort of support during a counter attack. Therefore it leaves Suarez with 4 defenders in front of him and no one to run past and take a centre back and rarely will he have someone on the LW/RW making a dangerous run towards the box. As stated previously, the poor positioning of players in the box means that going out wide for them to hit the byline is not usually going to result in a goal.


 
Finally option C, running directly at a defence. Suarez can do it, but he misses all the time and gives away possession and as glorious as the skill can be to watch I have little faith in the finish that comes at the end of it.

If I were Rodgers looking at this situation I would seriously be looking at dropping Suarez into the 1 in the midfield triangle and playing Yesil or someone with pace at CF so that defences are worried about direct vertical movement through the centre because right now I don't see a source for it. Not having that in our locker is a huge shame because it can be such a potent source of goals.



Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2012, 01:35:27 pm »
Downing is not a fullback - his passing was generally poor highlighted by that pass across the box - I'm sure I was told at the age of 4 not to pass across the box..........but the concern isn't Downing at fullback, its a manager who puts Downing at fullback - what is the thinking?

I was told at four too. But it's a lesson I've gradually unlearned. There's a time to do it of course and a time to avoid it. Downing's was a time to avoid it. But there's no such thing as a rule against passing across your own box and it would reduce your options on the ball if you believed there was. Incidentally, there's loads of other lessons I was taught at 4 that turn out not to be perfect either.

It was the wrong ball to play, but the worst pass was by Sahin to Downing that preceded it. Downing had cleverly bided his time until Sahin moved into space to receive a pass. Having got the ball Sahin then unaccountably failed to turn and move away from his own lines, instead sending a stupid pass back to Downing who was now well and truly boxed in. Yes, he should have whacked the ball clear but the damage was half-down already.

Incidentally you might want to mention the fact that Downing scored the winning goal. Not to praise Downing as such, but to put your negative comment about Brendan Rodgers into some proportion. 
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 01:35:35 pm »
I hate detracting from the positive result of last night but in my opinion Gerrard is fast becoming a real concern to me.  Whilst everyone is commentating on how Shelvey was a passenger throughout the game, I kept getting the distinct impression that Gerrard was “ignoring” Jonjo and “excluding” him from the game.  This resulted in Shelvey having to continually track back deep in order to pick up the ball from Sahin when he should have been staying up front and receiving service from Gerrard.

Furthermore, once we had gone 1-0 ahead, Gerrard seemed to be doing his best to get himself onto the score sheet which resulted in him breaking up play through doing his own thing.

Is Gerrard perhaps becoming “selfish” as he starts to loose pace and comes up against competition from younger Players who are better suited to Rodgers’ style of play?

Wisdom and Assaidi were simply superb last night and Jones, Skrtel, Agger, Sahin, Sterling and Downing weren’t too shabby either.



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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 01:36:14 pm »
I do think some of the praise has been a little over the top. Often times he does dribble forward, cut inside in to traffic, move the ball sideways or back to his fullback. The stuff that Downing and others are derided for. But he does it quicker, and he throws in a step over or two. And so he's praised for it. C'est la vie.

The difference is that Assaidi knows when to do it. He does it when he sees that there is no where to go, and instead of running down a blind alley and losing possesion, he retains possesion. Even Messi himself does the same thing when it's neccesary.

Downing on the other hand, always does it, even when he has the chance to run at his man. Or Suarez on the other end of the extremes never does it and runs with the ball until he loses it.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:40:08 pm by LFC_4_life »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 03:16:58 pm »
I was told at four too. But it's a lesson I've gradually unlearned. There's a time to do it of course and a time to avoid it. Downing's was a time to avoid it. But there's no such thing as a rule against passing across your own box and it would reduce your options on the ball if you believed there was. Incidentally, there's loads of other lessons I was taught at 4 that turn out not to be perfect either.

It was the wrong ball to play, but the worst pass was by Sahin to Downing that preceded it. Downing had cleverly bided his time until Sahin moved into space to receive a pass. Having got the ball Sahin then unaccountably failed to turn and move away from his own lines, instead sending a stupid pass back to Downing who was now well and truly boxed in. Yes, he should have whacked the ball clear but the damage was half-down already.

Incidentally you might want to mention the fact that Downing scored the winning goal. Not to praise Downing as such, but to put your negative comment about Brendan Rodgers into some proportion. 

I'd pretty much figured out when and where you should be doing it by the time I was 5 you obviously took a little while longer to figure out what the advice actually meant. The educational stuff on 'rules' sounds like you have some personal issues with your coach ( he sounds like a fascist) that you need to work through.

Do you still look left, right and left again when crossing the road? Unfortunately Downing does not appear to have had a similar education to us to and I'm now worried about him when he's out alone.

as for the 'balance' maybe the 'balance should be about the whole thread and not just individual posts? maybe the balance should be to allow discussion about the good and the bad and not just  pretend Rodgers can do no wrong because he's 'rebuilding' - having said that its a bit weird that you didn't blame Carra for the pass

Rodgers is allowed to make mistakes thats how he will learn, its his first european campaign ffs , its the first time he's needed to balance a squad two games a weekno need to be overly defensive about the lad - I'll call it as I see it and for me he made three bad calls - no doubt he'll get more right than me over the coming years but I aint going to blow smoke up the blokes arse when he makes what I think are three obvious mistakes and I'm not going to pretend we played well when we didn't - he knows better than us we have a long way to go from where we are now - the idea we'll swallow any guff he comes out with ain't good for me -

As for Downing's goal being some vindication of him playing at left back, really? The law of averages was more accountable I think. Can Downing really be a fullback, Is Rodgers testing the lads commitment and desire? Does he think there is  a good player in there that he can shape into a real asset for LFC  or is he just trying to make the best of a situation and get some value from the lad? I think Downing has been unlucky and he's struggled mentally at the club, for me he's  a better player
 than we've seen,  he may turn that around but its more likely he'll be gone come February so whats the full back idea about?
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 03:36:10 pm »
A wee point. Downing's pass actually reached Skrtel, who cleared it.

The end result was a wee flutter of the heart, nothing more.

Are we phobic of defensive play that has a healthy cavalier relationship with risk? I think we are. But those are some of the eggs we have to break to make the sexy football omelette.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2012, 03:39:20 pm »
It's 'aesthetic football' Roy. That's enough for some people.

To condemn it, like.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2012, 04:20:34 pm »
Assaidi reminds me a little bit of Baros in that he gets the ball and thinks "Right, get me head down and fucking bail it towards their byline!" I actually don't mind that. In a team that is in danger of getting penned in if the opposition press high, he could be a very good outlet, rather than a big hoof towards Suarez.
Is that odd, hunched gait of his perhaps coloring your analogy? I think his body shape often makes it look like he has his head down when actually he hasn't. After all, there was plenty of times last night where he was aware of, and used, his fullback when I probably thought the only thing in his mind was beating his man.

As for Downing's goal being some vindication of him playing at left back, really? The law of averages was more accountable I think. Can Downing really be a fullback, Is Rodgers testing the lads commitment and desire? Does he think there is  a good player in there that he can shape into a real asset for LFC  or is he just trying to make the best of a situation and get some value from the lad? I think Downing has been unlucky and he's struggled mentally at the club, for me he's  a better player
 than we've seen,  he may turn that around but its more likely he'll be gone come February so whats the full back idea about?
I think there were several times Downing failed to position himself correctly at fullback, and I agree that I don't see him playing there long term, but that doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Rodgers. And given he's barely played there, I'm not sure how the 'law of averages' stacks up. You've listed a lot of the reasons for playing at fullback yourself to be fair. Rodgers has tested his commitment by playing him in a less glamorous, less familiar position. He got a goal from him which improves confidence both to get a better player out of him, and to get value from both his performances and his fee if we sell him. It also allowed us to rest a first choice defender by making the one attacking change Rodgers wanted to make at half time.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2012, 04:28:41 pm »
The thing is, we see the game through a prism.

Anji are no mugs.

This notion that we never looked like scoring in the first half - when Suarez slipped Shelvey in I was thinking "aye aye". I was surprised he never drilled it in the corner. When Johnson slipped and took an air shot in the six yard box... no? Not a likely goal?

This notion that Downing was shite wide right. Zhirkov actually had quite a tricky half, and Downing linked play or fell foul of Suarez not moving it on to him in favour of a nutmeg attempt.

What's clear from the thread (and really interesting) is that we almost all saw different games. For me, Anji were a decent side and the idea that they kept "running into traffic" neglects the defending side's ability to engineer traffic. Also, anyone noticing how calm you feel facing the opposing side's set pieces these days?

In the first half, Brad Jones dummies the centre forward, slips it to Agger, and we flirt with the kind of danger Downing gets shit for only to work it round their front line and suddenly find acres of space down the right to break. That's the idea - break the press and get at their undermanned defence.

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Offline Garstonite

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2012, 04:35:43 pm »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2012, 04:42:19 pm »
A wee point. Downing's pass actually reached Skrtel, who cleared it.

The end result was a wee flutter of the heart, nothing more.

Are we phobic of defensive play that has a healthy cavalier relationship with risk? I think we are. But those are some of the eggs we have to break to make the sexy football omelette.

its not about being phobic though is it or a healthy cavlier attitude to risk (which seem a contradiction in terms to me)

its the idea that its all of nothing - you can play sensibly and still build from the back without taking daft risks - the risk has to be worth taking - that pass wasn't worth the risk and most 4/5 year olds and recently even Yorky apparently would know that. Splitting your centre halves wide and then feeding a player through the middle who is either marked or being closed down isn't a good plan either nor is exposing teh back line by allowing all three central midefielder forward or throwing both fullbacks forward leaving two slow centre halfs one on one against two faster strikers but we've done all of those this season.

there's a difference between 'style' and stupidity. There was one good example of this second half when we pinged it about despite being under pressure and in teh final third but it was away from goal and there was cover if it broke down.

the original post said Downing's poor play was highlighted by that pass - there were several other heart flutters and general growls because of his play - and for me its not his fault because he shouldn't be there. He scored a good goal with a shot from outside the box - finally a break for the lad but he's had enough shots before now any of which could have gone in, and it does not mean he played well defensively.

It's 'aesthetic football' Roy. That's enough for some people.

To condemn it, like.

I couldn't put it better myself some people are getting themselves terribly confused between something looking good and it actually having a purpose.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2012, 04:49:03 pm »
That was a dominating performance against a very good team.  By dominating I obviously don't mean scoring goals for fun, but the Rodgers concept of strangling the opposition through possession.  They simply had no idea what to do.  The player that I think had an excellent game that will be generally missed is Sahin.  In that deepest midfield role what you really want is an anonymous performance by a player who receives a lot of the ball.  Simply shuttling the ball around until there is an opportunity to move it forward and take opposition players out of the play.  It's clear to me that he is one of the most tactically astute players on the team.  I am enormously relieved that this means Allen doesn't have to play that position for lack of an alternative.  I am really looking forward to a midfield trio of Lucas, Allen and Sahin, the other tea simply won't get the ball.

Assaidi was great, but also had a great deal of support from the wingbacks behind him.  I have thought for a while now that Glen Johnson is our best player, whichever side he plays dominates our attacking threat.  Wisdom was excellent defensively but the wide forward in front of him suffers greatly from the understandable reluctance (or instruction) not to get forward.  Downing worked hard over there but when you are playing possession football and up against two defenders you are going to pass it backwards or sideways most of the time. 

With Johnson on the right I think Downing might well be our best answer to the LB position.  If there is nothing else about Downing he is fundamentally sound, he knows where he is supposed to play, has good technical skills, and can move the ball efficiently.  BTW, that pass wasn't to Skrtel, it was to Jones who was not confident enough to take a couple of steps out and pass the ball (or at least hoof it).  Reina would have trapped the ball and passed the ball.  That's OK, Jones just isn't a complete footballer and has been flawless otherwise.

Suarez shouldn't have played, or at least should have been taken off early when it was clear he wasn't contributing much.  Not his work rate but simply his sharpness.  At this rate I think I'm going to beg Rodgers to experiment with someone, anyone else in the CF position.  Perhaps all Rodgers needs is a two goal cushion in the second half.  A catch 22 with Suarez missing chances.

Tactically the thing I have noticed is that Rodgers hates traditional crosses, the opposite of last year's philosophy.  He wants his wide players to drive outside the full back at a 45 degree angle, turn the opposing defence and pass the ball in the penalty area rather than play the percentages.

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2012, 04:55:13 pm »
As an extra point on that Downing pass... Skrtel was actually available to receive the ball and showed for it, it was the fact he switched off and was caught on his heels that caused the issue. Even then he had sufficient time to get to the ball, and the clearance which is being decried as dangerous pretty much went to the same area of the pitch Downing would have likely cleared it to, had he just panic cleared it in the first place. So in many ways we made a mistake and yet were no worse off. Had Skrtel and Downing got any kind of understanding I imagine it would have gone a lot more smoothly. For every 4/5 seconds extra pressure we are under when passing out at the back we relieve 30 secs + of pressure we'd have suffered from panicking and giving up possession through a blind clearance. It's a trade-off.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2012, 05:02:13 pm »
some people are getting ....terribly confused between something looking good and it actually having a purpose.

While others see something that looks good and immediately condemn it as purposeless.

They don't all support Stoke either.
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Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2012, 05:05:41 pm »
so whats the full back idea about?

If i could just make a point in relation to this. Sorry for butting in.

For me Downing will have a little more time and space to operate in when he receives the ball coming from the left back position. This will help him overcome his current lack of confidence by giving him more time to make the correct decision. All the play is ahead of him and as such the temptation to bail out and give the ball back to the left back is removed by the fact that he is the full back.

It almost forces him to play forward passes and allows him to get used to that feeling again. It takes the creative pressure off him a bit too and can allow him refind his football instinct hopefully.

I can see the reasoning myself. He,s quick enough to cover the ground going backwards too. As a measure to allow Downing build up his confidence in a slightly less pressured part of the pitch with a view to him regaining his left wing spot once his mojo returns it could be a good move.

Lobbing him in at left wing where his fear is so much more apparent in comparison to the fearlessness of the youth in those positions certainly hasn't done the job over the last 18 months.
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline Thog

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2012, 05:06:12 pm »
We were good but not great. That said, Anzhi are a formidable side so it was never going to be a stroll in the park. I thought the defence handled Eto'o magnifecently, causing him to drop deeper and deeper in search of the ball, was playing as a centre mid at times.

One thing we have improved on is exploiting space between the opponent's midfield and defence. When Suarez turns though, there are a lack of options in front of him and when there are he seems to have a lack of faith in them. For the forseeable future, Gerrard should be in the hole. As Shelvey develops I see him becoming a quality no.10 but for now we should play him alongside Allen or Lucas as the creative midfielder where he can utilise his crisp passing.

Rodgers made a very good substitution last night, bringing on Allen for Shelvey because no one was showing for the ball when Jones was trying to distribute from the back. We needed fresh legs in there aswell. When someone did show we didn't actually get anywhere with it, and the fans were clearly getting worried. People underestimate Allen's role and how good he actually is.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2012, 05:20:02 pm »
It's textbook phobic response Vulmea. A single moment, no actual harm done, and a life-long focus on what might go wrong in similar circumstances for the rest of your days. Paging Dr Freud! ;)

We did it at other times. Joao Carlos actually did similar in the first half for them. It happens these days, and we're using it to lengthen the pitch. So what?

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2012, 07:17:36 pm »
Maybe if poor Vulmea keeps watching Stewart playing at left back the progressive gradual exposure will result in systematic desensitization of his phobia.

Dr Freud was partial to a bit of coke though.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2012, 07:19:21 pm »
Anzhi is top of the russian league, they certainly weren´t here for politely handing us the win.

This game just proved that we have a plan and that we are on our way. Otherwise we would have lost with the majority of the players being very tired and not fresh enough. In contrast, we could control the game, more or less, which is down to our tactical framework which starts to gets in the players minds without them having to think too much about it anymore.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool V FC Anzhi
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2012, 07:36:56 pm »
It's textbook phobic response Vulmea. A single moment, no actual harm done, and a life-long focus on what might go wrong in similar circumstances for the rest of your days. Paging Dr Freud! ;)

We did it at other times. Joao Carlos actually did similar in the first half for them. It happens these days, and we're using it to lengthen the pitch. So what?

as opposed to a view where to keep possession justifies a cavalier approach to do it

it brings to mind the old joke that if you aren't panicking its because you actually dont know how serious the situation is

the so what, is when it goes wrong,  its when possession becomes the end rather than the a means to the end and you take unnecessary and disproportionate  risks to achieve it

the end is to win games not the possession stats

its the same mentality which has seen us dominate games, get complacent as we did against Udinese and lose - you dont win on points by just keeping the ball - you win by scoring more than the opposition

a phobic reaction would generally apply to an irrational fear of circumstances - being afraid of poisonous snakes isn't phobic when you encounter one in your slippers
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