Topic: Transfer Round Up Round Table

[mercury]

While I applaud the shipping out of so many unwanted players  and the vitality it gives to the club - that must have come at a cost - the transfer fee's written off, the contracts bought out - you have to suspect that would amount to well over 10 mil. A legacy of the previous regime. The only real outstanding issue being the 18 mil we still owe in wages to Joe Cole. The same Cole deal that was lorded last summer and had the board in a meltdown of joy, where anybody suggesting it might not be that great was shot down in flames. 12 months later...

If Henderson doesn't fulfill his potential, if Coates bombs, if Adam gives the ball away too often and Doni can't step up, if Downing gets injured and Enrique fails to handle the pressure, if Carroll fails to find his form and Suarez burns himself out - and we finish 6th - how will we view fsg in 12 months time?

can the decisions they've made be judged objectively now? or can they only really be judged on the evidence of how they've performed in which case they will always be a hostage to fortune.

For the record I think they've bought safely, we haven't taken any great risks on potential but have gone for the most part with players with good track records (Downing, Adam, Enrique, Bellamy, even Henderson has a season plus) all tried and tested in the Prem - the only real gamble is Coates. I like what they've done. I think it gives Kenny the chance to build a side bigger than the sum of its parts - that compliment each others abilities because they recognise their own weaknesses - a team rather than a collection of superstars but the risk is we have a good team with good players rather than a great team.

We've unloaded players who contributed little last year - the sheer volume is impressive, can't say I particularly disagree with any of the personnel which have left, including Raul and Aquilani (neither wanted to be here) but I dont think we've made anything like the savings being talked about - I'd think 5 mil a year max.

The new structure of the squad is intriguing - it looks as though we've genuinely structured for the future allowing young players a place in the squad and a real chance of playing and progressing into the first team - again whilst I applaud that - its risky - not all the young players will develop - they wont all be up to the job - they'll have poor spells, defenders will cost us goals, strikers will miss chances - so at the same time as we applaud the decision we have to be prepared to live with the consequences - I'm not sure that will be the case when things go wrong - easy to get behind the squad when we haven't lost a game - not so simple if City turn us over three nil - if its the correct decision to give the kids a chance now - its still the case in 9 months regardless of how things pan out.

Having said that I still expect the likes of Eccleston, Amoo, and Mendy to go out on loan -Wilson too maybe if he's 5th choice - the fact it wasn't to teh prem though suggests those lads futures dont rest at LFC -  I'd also hope the best of the rest get some first team experience somewhere - Wisdom, Coady, Adorjan just to see if they can step up again. Sterling I think requires a personal plan the lads as precocious as Fowler, Owen and Gerrard ever where and it'll be a test of our new set up to see how they manage him.

Finally I think we've looked after our own business very well but its also clear we are not playing to the same rules as City and Chelsea - they have made no attempt at staying inside the rules except their very obvious accountancy tricks - if those go unchecked then however clever our management are they'll be fighting with one hand tied behind their back - we'll hit the same type of ceiling as mid table clubs there being only so much which can be achieved.

1.   Yes, the savings from released / loaned out players would not be as much as reported.  We are bound to take a hit to clear the house.

2.   As you rightly pointed out about our signings this summer – solid and balance.  This jumps out most to me from the squad list now. 

If all signings fail as hypothesised, then Commolli should be left to hang and quartered.  The ball will be in FSG’s court to ratify such sumptuous level of incompetency – it is our club but their investment.  And Kenny cannot be absolved of all the blame:  he definitely (and rightly) have had input and how players fare depend as much on coaching and organization. 

However, I do think it’s not too early to have some quiet confidence on the new signings.  Not a lot of spectacular and flash - just a team to do a job.  The 1st 11 probably is not on par with the 2008-09 team (especially with Gerrard a few years older and more injuries) but the squad depth is better.  Would be an interesting comparison at the end of the season.  Next summer's transfer strategy would also be interesting if we achieve what we set out to achieve -- at least a 4th in the league.

3.   If we embrace the concept of youth – producing as many players as we could, which everyone seems to be embracing, then this is the element of risk which we have to balance with signings for the first team.  A consistent football philosophy throughout the club is also important, not the least to help carry young players into the first team.  One way we all know though, the Barca model is in no way a cheap one. 

4.   Playing staff budget:  what you are highlighting is can we catch up without further injection of equity?  Two important issues regarding this:

-    revenue generating capability – we do not need to be no.1 in terms of $$ power but we definitely need to bridge the gap in match day revenue somehow.  If we don’t, then we’ll have to find it somewhere else - not easy. 

-   FFP:  are we witnessing a new era or is it just a mirage?  And for all the early naysayers of sustainability of Roman Abramnovich’s ownership (including, alas, meself), Chelsea is still there and about. 

How ingenious can FSG tackle this, especially if FFP turns out to be a joke?  Can we somehow move closer to ManU?  Have FSG shown all its hand yet?  As you rightly pointed out, these questions remain to be answered and will determine whether we will be competitive again.   If FSG fails, then yes, we will be seeing a league  5-6 position and a minor trophy once in a while future for us, unless we get our own sugar daddy or the G14, which we are still part of, gets its own super-league (is it too far-fetched?)

What I do like so far is the purposeful, structured, no fuss way of doing biz of FSG.  This transfer window demonstrated this -- that they have a strategy and a plan and are good enough to carrying it out. I’m willing to give their approach a shot.  I hope we fans, and most of football, are able to give it a shot.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

I´d like to start by apologizing for what I´m about to say.

When loaning players out, we should really try and loan them to other Premier League clubs like Manchester United are doing. Like De Laet, Cleverly (who´s overhyped btw) and Welbeck. I think that prepares the player a lot better than going to say Hull or Doncaster.

Must be quite a few clubs in the bottom tier of the PL that could use someone like Wilson or Shelvey.

[Hinesy]

Why apologise? If that's your thoughts then go for it mate.

[bleedsred1978]

I´d like to start by apologizing for what I´m about to say.

When loaning players out, we should really try and loan them to other Premier League clubs like Manchester United are doing. Like De Laet, Cleverly (who´s overhyped btw) and Welbeck. I think that prepares the player a lot better than going to say Hull or Doncaster.

Must be quite a few clubs in the bottom tier of the PL that could use someone like Wilson or Shelvey.

Could be that they aren't good enough. Having said that it could also be that Mr Alex Ferguson had so many former players as managers in the prem league that they take em on spec.

[Gnurglan]

While I applaud the shipping out of so many unwanted players  and the vitality it gives to the club - that must have come at a cost - the transfer fee's written off, the contracts bought out - you have to suspect that would amount to well over 10 mil. A legacy of the previous regime. The only real outstanding issue being the 18 mil we still owe in wages to Joe Cole. The same Cole deal that was lorded last summer and had the board in a meltdown of joy, where anybody suggesting it might not be that great was shot down in flames. 12 months later...

If Henderson doesn't fulfill his potential, if Coates bombs, if Adam gives the ball away too often and Doni can't step up, if Downing gets injured and Enrique fails to handle the pressure, if Carroll fails to find his form and Suarez burns himself out - and we finish 6th - how will we view fsg in 12 months time?

can the decisions they've made be judged objectively now? or can they only really be judged on the evidence of how they've performed in which case they will always be a hostage to fortune.

For the record I think they've bought safely, we haven't taken any great risks on potential but have gone for the most part with players with good track records (Downing, Adam, Enrique, Bellamy, even Henderson has a season plus) all tried and tested in the Prem - the only real gamble is Coates. I like what they've done. I think it gives Kenny the chance to build a side bigger than the sum of its parts - that compliment each others abilities because they recognise their own weaknesses - a team rather than a collection of superstars but the risk is we have a good team with good players rather than a great team.

We've unloaded players who contributed little last year - the sheer volume is impressive, can't say I particularly disagree with any of the personnel which have left, including Raul and Aquilani (neither wanted to be here) but I dont think we've made anything like the savings being talked about - I'd think 5 mil a year max.

The new structure of the squad is intriguing - it looks as though we've genuinely structured for the future allowing young players a place in the squad and a real chance of playing and progressing into the first team - again whilst I applaud that - its risky - not all the young players will develop - they wont all be up to the job - they'll have poor spells, defenders will cost us goals, strikers will miss chances - so at the same time as we applaud the decision we have to be prepared to live with the consequences - I'm not sure that will be the case when things go wrong - easy to get behind the squad when we haven't lost a game - not so simple if City turn us over three nil - if its the correct decision to give the kids a chance now - its still the case in 9 months regardless of how things pan out.

Having said that I still expect the likes of Eccleston, Amoo, and Mendy to go out on loan -Wilson too maybe if he's 5th choice - the fact it wasn't to teh prem though suggests those lads futures dont rest at LFC -  I'd also hope the best of the rest get some first team experience somewhere - Wisdom, Coady, Adorjan just to see if they can step up again. Sterling I think requires a personal plan the lads as precocious as Fowler, Owen and Gerrard ever where and it'll be a test of our new set up to see how they manage him.

Finally I think we've looked after our own business very well but its also clear we are not playing to the same rules as City and Chelsea - they have made no attempt at staying inside the rules except their very obvious accountancy tricks - if those go unchecked then however clever our management are they'll be fighting with one hand tied behind their back - we'll hit the same type of ceiling as mid table clubs there being only so much which can be achieved.

Agree that the changes must have come at a cost. If we take Cole for instance, then it's likely we're paying part of his wages. I've seen mentioned somewhere that we're paying 60% of it. Essentially, that would be 0.6*90k/w = 54k/w. And when Cole comes back, we still have 2 years of 90k/w to pay. It's of course a savings of 36k/w for a year, but it is 54k/w flowing out of the club. And we get nothing for it.

Also agree with our savings. I don't think they are that great. But at this stage, that is not the most important thing. The structure is. Kenny and Comolli have identified the need for improvement and they have tried to fix as many as possible. It could be that they have tried to do too much, but we are at least on the right track.

We now have the fundamental pieces in place. We have a board that provides stability. We have a manager and a DoF who are putting the right structure in place. Players have more defined roles and there are no immediate concerns with for example age. Then we have an Academy, which everyone speaks highly of. With those pieces coming together, the club is in a very healthy state for the future.

[mercury]

Yes, Gnurglan.  A healthy state is very apt, which of course apply to our new first team squad - no glaring weakness, good platform for going forward 

As said, the elephant in the room is the stadium / revenue issue which is a separate discussion to this thread.

[Hinesy]

I'll leave this stickied til the next post match one comes over.

[DanA]

The good:
I think we did some brilliant business. Kenny's clarity of what he wanted and his pragmatic yet bold choices is looking a master stroke. It's easy to understand the decisions in hindsight but really the way he and Comolli have shaped the team shows a well though out, clear and clinical lot transfer policy. I think it's extraordinary how many boxes the players we gotten tick. Young, tall, fast, strong, intelligent, fantastic passers & excellent work rate, all characteristics our players display. But it's their desire to play for us that really stands out it's really quite inspiring. I'm surprised with how many local lads we've managed to get. Henderson, Downing, Adam, Carroll, Bellamy and even Enrique have all spent time playing in the region and understand the clubs history. I think it makes a difference. On the selling side truly remarkable. Still think we can tidy the academy a bit but the cleansing of the first team squad was masterfully done. The last signing, Coates by no means a local lad, I think is a special talent. I watched him in 3 games during the Copa America's (due to Suarez) and while off very little evidence, this guy to me looks the 2nd coming of Hyppia, just faster!

The bad:
Nothing

Who would we have liked that we missed?
The players we apparently missed to the Mancs; Phil Jones and Ashley Young would also have been great buys for us. Ashley Young I suspect was targeted to fill the role we've cast for Bellamy and to be honest I could've seen him doing a fantastic job for us. He's speed would have been a great asset and right foot set pieces handy but I wonder if he'd have ever settled here and doubt he'd have been happy coming off the bench. Phil Jones is perhaps the bigger loss in my mind, clearly a great talent and coming from Blackburn he'd have been another lad from our region that'd understand the history of the club. He's very different to Coates so I suspect he could have been an addition rather than either or.

And what does it say about Kenny and Comolli's relationship the way its panned out?
It's functioning well. It's funny but I think Kenny's humility goes a long way. I suspect Commolli likes the limelight and he seems to be getting that with the noticeable absence of Kenny their to stealing his thunder. Kenny obviously plays a big part in the decision on who to buy but seems to be more than willing to step back and let DC once negotiations begin. It might seem little but some managers wouldn't be willing to do that and it's going to be hugely beneficial for Comolli's career.

The fact we've got so many local lads on reasonable wages will hold us in good stead for years to come. Every penny saved now is a penny we can spend in the future and we've been very thrifty I think.

[Mark Walters]

It's certainly been an interesting window and there are many positives to be taken from it with perhaps, for me at least, a couple of unanswered questions.

The main positive, as has already been mentioned numerous times, is the removal of unwanted players from the squad.  The sheer number who we have managed to get rid of shows the huge amount of work that DC and his team must have been doing to hawk these players round the major leagues in Europe.  We talk about the perceived lack of quality for most of these players but to move them on to the likes of Bolton, Wolfsburg, Lille, etc. shows that they were still good enough for teams in the best leagues in Europe and that we did a good job in marketing them in that way to these teams.

And to reduce the wage bill to an extent that we're actually SAVING money shows the excellent strategy that the management and owners have put in place.  I think that they recognised that without CL football we were unlikely to attract the top talent so went for the next best thing: players who would not miss playing CL football because they never have, were young, hungry, understood the league and, more importantly, understood what a huge opportunity it was for them to further their careers with a team steeped in history and expectation.  I'm sure all of them will bust a gut for Kenny and the team.

If you look at the players we've bought, they all fall into those categories.  Yet they're all good or potentially good players.  Can anyone really find anything negative to say about Enrique, Downing or Bellamy?  I think Bellamy might be an ace up our sleeve - an excellent player who I didn't want to leave and who can play against slower defences or come on after Carroll has battered and worn down more stubborn ones.

There are still some question marks:
 - how Coates will settle and adapt?
 - will Henderson reach his full potential and where will he be used?  Right midfield?  I'm not sure he's the player to replace Kuyt out there.  He may be more technically adept but can he provide the goals and assists and workrate of Kuyt? Centrally?  Would that be as a replacement for Gerrard in a few years? (Is Gerrard even replaceable?)
 - Doni is a bit of unknown.  Will he be able to recapture the form that he showed in Serie A a few years ago if, God forbid, Pepe gets injured?  Only time will tell on that one.
 - Central midfield and in particular Adam is the biggest conundrum for me.  I appreciate what he brings to the team.  The set piece delivery and the accurate Molby-like long balls but how will our game-plan change if he's not available and there's no like-for-like replacement?  If Lucas is out you'd safely say that wee Jay is the most natural replacement.  But if Adam is out?  Is it Shelvey? Is it Henderson (assuming Gerrard is somewhere in the team)?  Can either of them pass or have the set-piece delivery like Adam?  Does Gerrard come into replace Adam?  The other question mark over Adam is his pace and positional discipline.  Alonso wasn't the quickest but he could read the game well and always be in the right place at the right time.  Similarly Mascherano perhaps couldn't read the game as well as Alonso and couldn't pass like Adam but he was a pest who would buzz around quickly like an invisible mosquito for 90 minutes.  It will be interesting to see how that pans out both in the short and long term.

The signings have left me optimistic about the future of the club mainly because of the obviously strategy of blending an experienced 22 with promising youth, if not in terms of the immediate impact that the signings will have in helping us break into the top 4.  Maybe it's because I've seen too many false dawns.  Maybe it's because the league is stronger as a whole.  Maybe it's because I don't underestimate Arsenal or Spurs.  Maybe it's because I can't jump to any conclusions after 3 games.

Still, it should be an interesting season.

[deanbarber]

sorry, but i didnt know where to go. but i was wondering if there is a RAWK transfer talk thread?
if so, please help.

[No Appreciation of Liverpool Opposition]

sorry, but i didnt know where to go. but i was wondering if there is a RAWK transfer talk thread?
if so, please help.

have to wait till closer to the window i think

[Mutton Geoff]

I think the last window will turn out to be excellent business, I also think that we cannot get the total picture of Kenny's formations until Stevie is playing regularly for us!

[Alan B'Stard]

Bring in Nigel De Jong from City as he is not getting as many games as last season. He would beef up our midfield considerably, would possibly cost up to 20m tho.

[Barneylfc∗]

Bring in Nigel De Jong from City as he is not getting as many games as last season. He would beef up our midfield considerably, would possibly cost up to 20m tho.

Not really worth spending £20m for a player like him when we have Lucas. Although he's out for the season, I'd much rather see a loan or any of our current midfielders fill the gap.

I think the last window will turn out to be excellent business, I also think that we cannot get the total picture of Kenny's formations until Stevie is playing regularly for us!

True that. Havent really been at full strength injury wise all season. How many games have Suarez and Gerrard played 90 mins together? Or Carroll and Gerrard? Couldnt be any more than 10.

sorry, but i didnt know where to go. but i was wondering if there is a RAWK transfer talk thread?
if so, please help.

There'll be a whole transfer forum on 1st January