Topic: The Attack

[Hank Scorpio]

Re: Balotelli

There are 2 points I would like to make.

Firstly, Balotelli has kind of been thrown in at the deep end.  We were a free scoring side at the end of last season and are currently operating without 2 of the players which enabled that.  So to expect Balotelli to pick up the responsibility of scoring goals, almost on his own, is a little unfair.  In addition, we should consider were we a free scoring side this time last year?  We scored 17 goals by the end of October 2013 & 12 by the end of October 2012.  We have scored 13 goals so far this season.  So the lack of goals may well be more to do with our fitness strategy rather than an individual player.

However, and this is my second point, I think Balotelli in many respects has not helped himself.  I don't think missing that open goal against QPR was down to bad luck.  That's a lack of focus.  He's also demonstrated on more than a few occasions his impersonation of a daft footballer i.e. shooting when he has had better options, dribbling into poor positions etc.  In that respect he should be doing a lot better.

I believe he is talented enough to start scoring on a regular basis.  He's impressed me with his general play, touch and work rate.  I wonder if in the 2nd half of the season he will find that little bit more space as teams tire and he can start scoring.  Also, Rodgers will have had more time with him.  And hopefully the return of Sturridge.

[Notayesman]

Starting to get a bit worried about Markovic myself. Looks completely out of his depth

20 years of age in a new club, a new country. Think he might even be younger than Henderson when he arrived. He's certainly playing well within himself but there are flashes of what he can do. He has pace to burn and his passing is quite precise and snappy. Needs to be told to attack more though. And he really really needs to work on his shooting. I'd be giving him time though, was around this time last year that Sterling looked lost.

[LiamG]

Starting to get a bit worried about Markovic myself. Looks completely out of his depth

We did only sign him in the summer and he's only 20

[Smithy_88]

Couldn't care less who we played up front with Balotelli Lambert or Borini.

The fact is the we need them to play 2 Up front IMO.

It's when were most dangerous!

[Anywhichwayicant]

I think you may be trying to score points in a game that no one else is really trying to play here

No game being played.


Borini offers so much more than Lambert. Sadly though, once again, Liverpool Football Club lets the heart trump the brain.

[Anywhichwayicant]

20 years of age in a new club, a new country. Think he might even be younger than Henderson when he arrived. He's certainly playing well within himself but there are flashes of what he can do. He has pace to burn and his passing is quite precise and snappy. Needs to be told to attack more though. And he really really needs to work on his shooting. I'd be giving him time though, was around this time last year that Sterling looked lost.

But so far, he's offered nothing. That's the concern I have. I was complaining about our transfers in the summer, but he was one I was excited about. 20, new country and all that good stuff, shouldn't prevent a player showing what he is capable of.

Ideally we'd have seen one full half of what he can do, but as it is, we haven't even seen ten minutes. Admittedly it can't be easy playing in a team that has played one good game all season.

Those glimpses you've seen, I haven't seen. Untidy in position and unwilling to run at his man enough. I still think he'll come good, but I'm a lot more worried than I was in the summer.

[indlfc]

Starting to get a bit worried about Markovic myself. Looks completely out of his depth

I think its because of the false hype about the type of player he is. ]He is not a dribbler like Coutinho or Sterling. Even from his youtube clips (which focus on the best parts of the player) you can rarely see him dribbling past players with step overs or fancy tricks. He excels in releasing the ball just before the tackle and providing good movement. But it takes a good bit of understanding to work. He is more Maxi Rodriguez (albeit with more pace) than Robben or Sterling and we need one of that type. I think with some experience he will get us some important goals and we will see some team goals with him.

 See some his through balls there, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT6pXuQJFlk.

 He has the ability to use pace to get past players when the defenders are charging to him. But he struggles when the defenders are containing him.

 

[LFCsupporter]

Starting to get a bit worried about Markovic myself. Looks completely out of his depth

This season should be the bedding-in period for him. He has the talent, and itll take a while to translate it to a completely different league.

[Jookie]

Starting to get a bit worried about Markovic myself. Looks completely out of his depth

I think you've got to give him some time.

However, I think anyone who is saying he's 'shown flashes of promise' during his time at Liverpool are being extremely kind. To me he hasn't shown anything of promise in a Liverpool shirt as of yet.

Early days though for Lazar and he obviously had shown something at Benfica for us to shell out 20M for him.

I just wonder how we are going to keep him developing if he isn't getting games. He's struggling to get game time at the moment. When Sturridge comes back he'll be further away from the 1st team. Could be worse if Borini begins to play himself into the reckoning.

The way things are going the club may need to make a call on whether they loan him out come January (a bit like Ilori last season). Obviously a lot can change between now and then but it seems a viable option at the moment.

[Robbo1980]

If you take the west ham game and discard it as an anomaly because no part of our side functioned that day:

Borini & Mario together has looked relatively promising, we scored twice after Borini entered the field and was paired with mario v Ludo...we scored twice after Mario was introduced last night to be paired with fabio

That was as good a cross as we have seen at Anfield in a long time, literally on a plate:

Newcastle are there for the taking as long as we dont encourage them and get the crowd going, if we kill them early the crowd will turn, therefore id go for it with mario & Fabio with Coutinho feeding them (just a play on Kolo's food for strikers)

[Caston]

But so far, he's offered nothing. That's the concern I have. I was complaining about our transfers in the summer, but he was one I was excited about. 20, new country and all that good stuff, shouldn't prevent a player showing what he is capable of.

Ideally we'd have seen one full half of what he can do, but as it is, we haven't even seen ten minutes. Admittedly it can't be easy playing in a team that has played one good game all season.

Those glimpses you've seen, I haven't seen. Untidy in position and unwilling to run at his man enough. I still think he'll come good, but I'm a lot more worried than I was in the summer.

He was brilliant when he came on against City, apart from that he seems to be taking it safe and not showing people what he is capable of. He will come good though, i'm sure.

[Robbo1980]

Young lad low on confidence playing it safe.....wouldnt be the first time....

Seen glimpses early but less so of late, he'll get there.

[RedPat]

If the maestro was still here and Daniel was fit Brendan would start with Suarez and Sturridge,the SAS for certain,therefore Brendan really has to go with the BAB ie Balotelli and Borini,Balotelli has two goals for Liverpool both scored with Borini on the pitch and the second one was a direct assist with a cross Beckham would have being proud of from Fabio.

[Gerry83]

Id be happy to get rid of Lambert in January and bring someone with a big of pace in. Let Balo be supersub and Borini on loan or play cup games if there anything left by them.

As for Markovic we've paid the fee so we've got to hope for the best. He could become a world beater or a flop. Personally id have spent the 20m on someone a bit more proven but whats done is done.

Until Sturridge in back i think the Borini/Balotelli partnership is the way to go. Sterling is a definite starter and the only other issue would whether its Coutinho/ Lallana for the other spot.

[theMilkman]

can't find an exact heat map, but borini wasn't playing as striker- he played on the right. (Kristian Walsh agrees http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/now-time-liverpool-fc-bring-8016145 as anyone who paid attention during the match would).

all for fabio and balo starting against newcastle, and all for playing sturridge and and balo as a pair when sturridge is back- but can we cut it with the 'we must play two strikers all the time' bullshit? would much rather see borini continue to play on the right with sterling moving to the left. more space for him to move and as we saw, he can put in a half-decent cross in which is what both of mario's goals now have in common.

[GregCharrua]

1 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but we were playing a 4231 and when Balotelli came not hat didn't change - Lallana and Borini playing wide and cutting in. Borini looked good doing the wide bit, working hard, the ball he turned on and took a quick shot with his left would have been a wonderful goal if it were a half meter to the right! I think his energy, drive, attitude would only be positives on the pitch. We're missing that. I also think he gets on well with Balotelli (where Sterling doesn't seem to, at least not in football terms).

2 - The 4231 always looks half-passioned. The two sitting midfielders, the wide players tracking back, a lone striker... and when teams are setting up defensively against us, they have all the time in the world to take up shape and pressure us at the circle, and by the time we're near the 18-yard box Mario or someone else is frustrated and just takes the low-odds shot.

Is that because of the shape? The 1-2 midfield with Gerrard sets us up to be more attacking but then the slow, slow, overly thoughtful build up is still our problem - and I have no idea moving the ball around and taking our time, but we get stuck on one half of the pitch by the by line and then punt it back to Skrtel or Lovren or Migs and do the same again. Seems to me we need to be moving the ball faster - and to my eyes, the reason we can't is because our movement off the ball has been pretty shit in midfield and in attack (NOT just Mario). To Borini's credit, he looked like he was doing lots of good work off the ball, and Lucas, Coutinho and Hendo seemed to have a good thing going in midfield last night, too, in terms of pass-move-ready to take the ball and move it on again, with Coutinho able to pick up the ball and run at the defense, and open up space for Borini or someone else to charge into...

3 - Gerrard is definitely coming back in Saturday. You know we're revert to a 433 or diamond with Gerrard sitting deep, henderson and probably Allen will come back in - but maybe Coutinho earned himself a start in the middle 3. Sterling and Borini wide and cutting in, Borini especially tasked with getting into the box to let Balotelli drift around and do his thing - I think it could work at Newcastle.

[Qcase1977]

I see from above that Borini wasn't playing as a striker last night. Did his performance warrant getting picket as one with Mario against Newcastle?

[MrRaptorTurtle]

I see from above that Borini wasn't playing as a striker last night. Did his performance warrant getting picket as one with Mario against Newcastle?

Looked like he was playing as 'RAM' in a 4-2-3-1, but wow he played it brilliantly. Even if Rodgers doesn't play them both upfront together Borini definitely deserves to play!

[The 5th Benitle]

He's been like that since we bought him though

Yes he has, quite surprised that anyone would be surprised at how he played last night as it's how he always plays. I like him a lot. Worth keeping particularly if we go back to 433, he was basically a wide forward at Sunderland (and a cult hero)

[scumbagcollege]

As for Markovic we've paid the fee so we've got to hope for the best. He could become a world beater or a flop. Personally id have spent the 20m on someone a bit more proven but whats done is done.

Someone like Mata, maybe?

[peachybum]

Looked like he was playing as 'RAM' in a 4-2-3-1, but wow he played it brilliantly. Even if Rodgers doesn't play them both upfront together Borini definitely deserves to play!

I've been calling for Borini to start as centre forward in the last three games ahead of Lambert and Balotelli but i doubt that'll ever happen. However his performance last night shows he should be ahead of Markovic for a wide forward spot. Whether Rodgers would pick him ahead of Sterling, Lallana or Coutinho out wide is another matter.

[dogeibbor]

Hmm... maybe.. just maybe we should play Borini as the center, with Lallana and Sterling covering the flanks? He sure as hell showed desire, movement and his shots were good yesterday. Could have easily gotten one.

[Number 7]

He's had a largely injury interrupted season with us so far. Hasn't looked great yet, but can understand it considering he's still really young and coming to a new league.

Not every player settles straight away.

While those points are valid, we've kind of backed ourselves in to a corner over him. We paid 20 million for him, and now we don't know how long exactly it will take for him to settle. Saying that, we obviously saw something in him to justify paying the amount so if we think he's worth it even if he settles after a year the club will feel vindicated in their decision. The problem is that he's young and adapting to a new league and it was highly likely he'd take a season to settle anyway.

From what I've seen he looks extremely timid, fragile and lacking a huge amount of confidence. Any player that 'appears' scared to shoot is lacking severe confidence. He hasn't done it in one game, it's basically every game. I really think he'd benefit from sitting down with Dr. Peters and talking about what he can do to improve himself.

[LFCsupporter]

Hmm... maybe.. just maybe we should play Borini as the center, with Lallana and Sterling covering the flanks? He sure as hell showed desire, movement and his shots were good yesterday. Could have easily gotten one.

You mean centre of a 3 behind the striker?

[JackWard33]

While those points are valid, we've kind of back ourselves in to a corner over him. We paid 20 million for him, and now we don't know how long exactly it will take for him to settle. Saying that, we obviously saw something in him to justify paying the amount so if we think he's worth it even if he settles after a year the club will feel vindicated in their decision. The problem is that he's young and adapting to a new league and it was highly likely he'd take a season to settle anyway.

From what I've seen he looks extremely timid, fragile and lacking a huge amount of confidence. Any player that 'appears' scared to shoot is lacking severe confidence. He hasn't done it in one game, it's basically every game. I really think he'd benefit from sitting down with Dr. Peters and talking about what he can do to improve himself.

Not sure much of that is fair. I thought he was decent last night - he has good touch and looks a really good passer, he also looks like he has a football brain
He's definitely playing too conservatively but confidence can come - I remember Lucas getting booed and Ian St John saying 'put him on the first boat back to Brazil' before turning himself into one of the best DMs in europe pre injury
No one whose worked with him has anything but the highest praise for his ability. I have no idea if he'll come good or not but also I don't have a problem with players taking time to reach their potential - heck even Suarez took a season or more to hit his potential. I also remember Pires saying he was scared of english football when he arrived then becoming player of the year later.

I think a more valid argument is the opportunity cost - ie if we hadn't got him could we have got someone who would have made a more instant contribution. I do think there were targets that were gettable in the AM position this summer like Shaqiri or Griezmann - but we have our strategy and he was the one we wanted
Drawing conclusions over players and signings in October of their first year has been a pretty bad way to view football over the years

[peachybum]

From what I've seen he looks extremely timid, fragile and lacking a huge amount of confidence. Any player that 'appears' scared to shoot is lacking severe confidence. He hasn't done it in one game, it's basically every game. I really think he'd benefit from sitting down with Dr. Peters and talking about what he can do to improve himself.

Forget shooting, one of his main strengths was supposed to be one on one's but he even seems scared to try and dribble past a man. Right now he looks like one of the most timid attacking players i've ever seen.

[GregCharrua]

Forget shooting, one of his main strengths was supposed to be one on one's but he even seems scared to try and dribble past a man. Right now he looks like one of the most timid attacking players i've ever seen.

I think that's unfair. He looked very bright for most of the first half. When he missed that beautiful chance with such a poor shot, he disappeared. He had some nice cuts inside, dragging swansea players out of position, then laid off the ball and the next ball was usually a near chance or chance on goal for someone... I'm just saying he isn't shit. He's at a big club, he's young, each person handles the stress of all this in their own way, and IMO he's not so far away now. It will take him at least half a season to get any sort of form, just like at Benfica. He seems to be a slow starter.

[Melbred]

From what I've seen he looks extremely timid, fragile and lacking a huge amount of confidence. Any player that 'appears' scared to shoot is lacking severe confidence. He hasn't done it in one game, it's basically every game. I really think he'd benefit from sitting down with Dr. Peters and talking about what he can do to improve himself.

These are reasons why I still expect him to come good. From all of the interviews I've read, and from what I've seen about him in the past, he is the exact opposite.

The way he has talked, he projects supreme confidence, bordering on arrogance, in his own ability. So I think a lot of his issues may have to do with the constant niggly injuries he's suffered during his brief time with us here.

I do, however, agree that this was not the window to be spending 20m on unproven talent.

[indlfc]

Forget shooting, one of his main strengths was supposed to be one on one's but he even seems scared to try and dribble past a man. Right now he looks like one of the most timid attacking players i've ever seen.

No it wasn't. It was false hype. His strength is his movement and intelligence. That will click once he is used to the pace of the league.

[Notayesman]

But so far, he's offered nothing. That's the concern I have. I was complaining about our transfers in the summer, but he was one I was excited about. 20, new country and all that good stuff, shouldn't prevent a player showing what he is capable of.

Ideally we'd have seen one full half of what he can do, but as it is, we haven't even seen ten minutes. Admittedly it can't be easy playing in a team that has played one good game all season.

Those glimpses you've seen, I haven't seen. Untidy in position and unwilling to run at his man enough. I still think he'll come good, but I'm a lot more worried than I was in the summer.

And people used to say that same about Hendo and Lucas. I agree he's been very poor up to now but it's very very early days.

[Adeemo]

Against Newcastle I think we'll probably see Sterling and Lallana come in for Markovic and Borini and maybe even Allen for Coutinho. Personally I'd hold Lallana back as an impact sub but I've a feeling that Brendan will earmark Fabio for that role and like I said, possibly even Coutinho. I just feel that playing Borini allows us to be slightly more fluid if it's necessary to change the system.
As far as our attack goes, I'd start with:

               Balotelli
Sterling                   Borini

  Henderson   Coutinho
             
               Gerrard

[RyanBabel19]

Yes he has, quite surprised that anyone would be surprised at how he played last night as it's how he always plays. I like him a lot. Worth keeping particularly if we go back to 433, he was basically a wide forward at Sunderland (and a cult hero)

Couldn't agree more

[Homo rubrum]

Against Newcastle I think we'll probably see Sterling and Lallana come in for Markovic and Borini and maybe even Allen for Coutinho. Personally I'd hold Lallana back as an impact sub but I've a feeling that Brendan will earmark Fabio for that role and like I said, possibly even Coutinho. I just feel that playing Borini allows us to be slightly more fluid if it's necessary to change the system.

As to the bolded bit, I don't necessarily disagree that he'll see use that way, but a player whose energy and pressing are two of his best features seems like he's being set up to fail in an impact sub role.  His pressing from high up the pitch allowed our midfield to press better, imo, and that was a more telling contribution than what he did on the ball, and a big part of what our game has missed. 

Balotelli or Lambert both have strengths that suit being the part of a fast break if it starts deep into the opposition half while we have numbers in the area- they just don't have the skill set to be particularly helpful in getting us the ball back to get us into that position   They can both spot a pass or play a 1-2 with the player who recovers possession that opens up the field and sets us away.

And in games when we need an attacking impact sub, there's a good chance the opposition will be more compact/ less vulnerable to that sort of transition attack.  Borini doesn't need a series of 20 minute cameos where his hard work is of little use AND the whole crowd expects an overt attacking contribution from him as the 'impact sub.' Either he should start or he shouldn't feature, imo. 

[Fromola]

Starting to get a bit worried about Markovic myself. Looks completely out of his depth

It's early days but he's not offering anything that someone like Moses couldn't. Reminds me of when we'd sign the likes of Leto for next to nothing and you'd realise why they were so cheap when they got a couple of games.  But this lad has cost a fortune and does have a good pedigree.

It's rare we've signed someone for that price and they just don't look any use. Downing you could see had the ability even on his debut but he was just such a shithouse. Henderson you always knew had it in him but wasn't used properly for a season or two and still very raw. Markovic if you knew nothing about his career you'd think he was some kid well out of his depth. Some Premier League greats have had awful first seasons or starts so it'd be unfair to write him off but he needs to start showing something.

[The 5th Benitle]

he needs to start showing something.

It's early days

[Fromola]

To clarify, what I mean is he has to show something regarding his quality. It's early days and he's not going to look a £20m player at least yet but he needs to show glimpses. Henderson is a fair comparison and he did have his good games in his first season where he showed promise and did good things. It's important Markovic shows something.

[LFCsupporter]

Henderson you always knew had it in him but wasn't used properly for a season or two and still very raw. Markovic if you knew nothing about his career you'd think he was some kid well out of his depth. Some Premier League greats have had awful first seasons or starts so it'd be unfair to write him off but he needs to start showing something.

Lets not re-write history: most supporters thought he was awful and contributed nothing during Kenny's full season. And there were plenty of games where he had little to no impact.

[The 5th Benitle]

To clarify, what I mean is he has to show something regarding his quality. It's early days and he's not going to look a £20m player at least yet but he needs to show glimpses. Henderson is a fair comparison and he did have his good games in his first season where he showed promise and did good things. It's important Markovic shows something.

Sure, and I agree - I wouldn't put a deadline on it though.

[Fromola]

Lets not re-write history: most supporters thought he was awful and contributed nothing during Kenny's full season. And there were plenty of games where he had little to no impact.

There would have been a shitstorm if he was flogged to Fulham that time, even after that first season. He had good games, good moments and a lot could see the quality was there with him but he needed to be used better which to be fair Rodgers has done with him once he gave him a fair chance. Nobody gave a shit when Adam was flogged on the cheap or if Downing had of been that summer (and was the next).

Henderson for example was great in our league cup run to the final. Markovic looks awful even in the league cup so far. As i've said it's very early days but it's important he shows something.

[joezydudek]

Why does 2 up top = scoring goals?
There are a lot of different formations you can be an effective attacking unit in (a lot of the most effective attacking units in the world at the moment are 1 up) - there's nothing magical about playing 2 strikers
The problem with playing Borini as a striker in a 2 is that one of your 'strikers' isn't actually doing anything threatening (and no running around a lot doesn't count) so you have what happened at West Ham where we're essentially out numbered in midfield with no extra attacking threat as compensation for that sacrifice

Given he's played the vast majority of his games for both us and Sunderland on the wing, and he did score goals for Swansea and Roma when playing through the middle, I don't think there's any real proof that he wouldn't do anything threatening if played through the middle.
I'm not saying he'd definitely pull up trees playing through the middle and I couldn't ever see him playing as a lone striker. However, using one game in which our defence and goalkeeper had all but gifted the opposition a win within five minutes of kick-off against a side that have been particularly solid in most games this season as the main proof that Borini can't play up front for isn't really fair.