Author Topic: Liverpool's Defence (Read 697072 times)

jepovic · « **Reply #4840 on:** January 24, 2015, 09:37:26 pm »

Quote from: astowell1 on January 24, 2015, 07:46:16 pm

Ridiculously good player. It's not stated enough at how shrewd his signing was by Rodgers.

He's pretty good in the air too, and not shy. For the record, he's 21 now

clinical · « **Reply #4841 on:** January 24, 2015, 10:19:37 pm »

Can and sakho are fucking ridiculously boss.

bradders1011 · « **Reply #4842 on:** January 24, 2015, 11:25:42 pm »

Looking forward to the collective blood-letting when Sakho's once a game Cruyff turn finally goes wrong.

farawayred · « **Reply #4843 on:** January 24, 2015, 11:43:34 pm »

Clean sheet with 1 CB and the rest a make-shift defense of players who rarely see a game and/or out of position... Not bad, not bad at all.

Fiasco · « **Reply #4844 on:** January 24, 2015, 11:47:21 pm »

We are living in a parallel Universe where our defence suddenly is solid and keeping clean sheets while we look toothless in front of goal. Go back 8 months and we couldn't buy a clean sheet and we'd score 5 and not be arsed!

farawayred · « **Reply #4845 on:** January 24, 2015, 11:49:39 pm »

Quote from: Fiasco on January 24, 2015, 11:47:21 pm

We are living in a parallel Universe where our defence suddenly is solid and keeping clean sheets while we look toothless in front of goal. Go back 8 months and we couldn't buy a clean sheet and we'd score 5 and not be arsed!

But go back two months and we can't keep a clean sheet and can't score to save our lives...

Fiasco · « **Reply #4846 on:** January 24, 2015, 11:55:41 pm »

Quote from: farawayred on January 24, 2015, 11:49:39 pm

But go back two months and we can't keep a clean sheet and can't score to save our lives...

I think Brendan deserves credit for sorting the defence out mate. I was saying 2 months ago that he'll never win much with us unless he learns how to get his teams to defend. Now this system may or may not be a long-term thing but he's shown that he can adapt and come up with ways to make the defence perform better.

At the moment our defence is the least of our worries. It's the forward areas and then the midfield that are the issues (and I mean that relatively).

-Daws- · « **Reply #4847 on:** January 24, 2015, 11:58:41 pm »

Quote from: farawayred on January 24, 2015, 11:49:39 pm

But go back two months and we can't keep a clean sheet and can't score to save our lives...

True, but it is quite funny how we've gone from one extreme to the other.

Anyway the goals will come. It's great to see us look so good at the back for the first time under Brendan, especially with two young players like Can and Sakho. They were superb today, and have been for some time, like others have said the exciting thing about Can is that he just looks as though he could developed into such a complete footballer. He has all the raw skills to be utterly dominant in several positions.

farawayred · « **Reply #4848 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:07:13 am »

Quote from: Fiasco on January 24, 2015, 11:55:41 pm

I think Brendan deserves credit for sorting the defence out mate. I was saying 2 months ago that he'll never win much with us unless he learns how to get his teams to defend. Now this system may or may not be a long-term thing but he's shown that he can adapt and come up with ways to make the defence perform better.

At the moment our defence is the least of our worries. It's the forward areas and then the midfield that are the issues (and I mean that relatively).

PoP should probably explain this a lot better, but the way I see it, Brendan should take credit for sorting the defense and should take the blame for taking so long. I think that the defense is helped a lot by the fact that the whole team started pressing. We didn't do that two months ago, we were just holding the ball and when we lose it we pull back and let the other team play. We didn't press, we didn't fight for second balls... Take this out of the game, and our defense will look dire again.

What Brendan did is to finally take Lovren out and put Sakho in. That solidified us at the back however clumsy Sakho may appear. It takes a man to do that, especially when Brendan lauded Lovren when we bought him, expected a lot from him, not the least to be that leader of the back line. James Pearce said very clearly what Rodgers expected from Lovren. But hats off to the man, it takes a great man to admit a mistake. I think he has realized that by now, but we will see if he puts Lovren back in the lineup once he is available again.

farawayred · « **Reply #4849 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:13:30 am »

Quote from: -Daws- on January 24, 2015, 11:58:41 pm

True, but it is quite funny how we've gone from one extreme to the other.

Nothing unexpected, really. Take the Premier league top scorer and the runner up out of the equation, 52 goals between them, and we have 49 goals in a season (never min the goals they set up for others). This season we have 30 goals without Sturridge's in 22 games. Scale that up for 38 games and that's almost 52. Right about what we should expect.

PhaseOfPlay · « **Reply #4850 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:15:03 am »

Quote from: farawayred on January 25, 2015, 12:07:13 am

PoP should probably explain this a lot better, but the way I see it, Brendan should take credit for sorting the defense and should take the blame for taking so long. I think that the defense is helped a lot by the fact that the whole team started pressing. We didn't do that two months ago, we were just holding the ball and when we lose it we pull back and let the other team play. We didn't press, we didn't fight for second balls... Take this out of the game, and our defense will look dire again.

What Brendan did is to finally take Lovren out and put Sakho in. That solidified us at the back however clumsy Sakho may appear. It takes a man to do that, especially when Brendan lauded Lovren when we bought him, expected a lot from him, not the least to be that leader of the back line. James Pearce said very clearly what Rodgers expected from Lovren. But hats off to the man, it takes a great man to admit a mistake. I think he has realized that by now, but we will see if he puts Lovren back in the lineup once he is available again.

For Rodgers - he did have to integrate two new fullbacks, a shiny new central defender, a new young German, while also having to figure out what to do with Gerrard, without knowing what effects the World Cup would have on him. That takes time.

Against Rodgers - he should have figured this out before the last three Champions League games, so between either stubbornness or naivete, he put the team in a position where the second half of the season would be a hard slog. He needed to act quicker in getting to this 3-4-3 pressing system. Everyone could see the 4-2-3-1 wasn't working.

Fiasco · « **Reply #4851 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:20:30 am »

Quote from: farawayred on January 25, 2015, 12:07:13 am

PoP should probably explain this a lot better, but the way I see it, Brendan should take credit for sorting the defense and should take the blame for taking so long. I think that the defense is helped a lot by the fact that the whole team started pressing. We didn't do that two months ago, we were just holding the ball and when we lose it we pull back and let the other team play. We didn't press, we didn't fight for second balls... Take this out of the game, and our defense will look dire again.

What Brendan did is to finally take Lovren out and put Sakho in. That solidified us at the back however clumsy Sakho may appear. It takes a man to do that, especially when Brendan lauded Lovren when we bought him, expected a lot from him, not the least to be that leader of the back line. James Pearce said very clearly what Rodgers expected from Lovren. But hats off to the man, it takes a great man to admit a mistake. I think he has realized that by now, but we will see if he puts Lovren back in the lineup once he is available again.

I agree with that. It's baffled many a person the whole Sakho thing but he's grabbed his chance with both hands. For all we know he left Lovren out just to let him out of the spotlight for a few games but now it's at a stage where he cannot justify his selection. But yeah as you say Rodgers hasn't been too proud and he's kept Lovren out the team. With so many games coming up in the next 6 weeks it'll be interesting to see in what game Lovren does get his chance in. As long as Can, Skrtel and Sakho keep playing like they are then Lovren isn't getting anywhere near the first team on a regular basis.

The 3 at the back has also brought the best out of Skrtel. He can almost play his backs to the wall game without the baggage that comes with it. He's looking confident, he's got a good understanding with Sakho and Can and he's been just as important as the other two. Mignolet looks a bit more confident too. When we had the Skrtel/Lovren partnership back there the whole back line and midfield was as mad as a box of frogs: players rushing to the ball, getting dragged out of position, nobody knowing their exact role. Now it's more calm, more assured and less complicated. The art of defending is often found in it's simplicity.

-Daws- · « **Reply #4852 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:20:51 am »

Quote from: farawayred on January 25, 2015, 12:13:30 am

Nothing unexpected, really. Take the Premier league top scorer and the runner up out of the equation, 52 goals between them, and we have 49 goals in a season (never min the goals they set up for others). This season we have 30 goals without Sturridge's in 22 games. Scale that up for 38 games and that's almost 52. Right about what we should expect.

I meant in regards to the back line. We obviously wouldn't be as potent going forward this year due to the loss of our forward line, but recently our defending has been almost as outstanding as our attacking game last year, and generally in Rodgers tenure, we have always been significantly better going forward than keeping clean sheets. It's the first time we have had it this way round.

The three at the back has really helped nullify the issues we have had controlling space in our third. Brendan needs to stick with it.

SerbianScouser · « **Reply #4853 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:38:46 am »

Quote from: -Daws- on January 25, 2015, 12:20:51 am

we have always been significantly better going forward than keeping clean sheets. It's the first time we have had it this way round.

And what`s really exciting is our defensive solidification didn`t hinder our creativity and fluidity. It`s so exciting knowing that when a proper forward that is Sturridge gets back we can start blowing teams away and be defensively solid at the same time like we`ve seen today where we nullified the opponent and still created shitload of chances and situations in and around the box.

eLToRo · « **Reply #4854 on:** January 25, 2015, 02:20:44 am »

Quote from: astowell1 on January 24, 2015, 07:46:16 pm

Ridiculously good player. It's not stated enough at how shrewd his signing was by Rodgers.

He is such a unit. I didn't realise how good he was untill the last 2 or 3 games and I didn't mind Rodgers not playing him for a while around November but he has been absolutely immense.

His 21st birthday was the other day and I couldn't believe it. He is huge . His passing is absolutely brilliant. Even his basic short passing is crisp and he seems to have so much confidence.

jooneyisdagod · « **Reply #4855 on:** January 25, 2015, 02:22:27 am »

Can and Sakho are brilliant. Can is an absolute demon. He's got size, speed once he's got going, immense strength and finesse. I really like the look of him.

B0151? · « **Reply #4856 on:** January 25, 2015, 02:29:16 am »

I thought Can might find it harder in the central spot but absolutely not

PhaseOfPlay · « **Reply #4857 on:** January 25, 2015, 02:31:55 am »

Quote from: Bakez0151 on January 25, 2015, 02:29:16 am

I thought Can might find it harder in the central spot but absolutely not

Good players can play anywhere with no real problems. Can is superb. Power, technique, intelligence, and positioning. If I didn't know already, I'd have said he was German. Textbook German player.

B0151? · « **Reply #4858 on:** January 25, 2015, 02:53:53 am »

Quote from: -Daws- on January 24, 2015, 11:58:41 pm

True, but it is quite funny how we've gone from one extreme to the other.

Anyway the goals will come. It's great to see us look so good at the back for the first time under Brendan, especially with two young players like Can and Sakho. They were superb today, and have been for some time, like others have said the exciting thing about Can is that he just looks as though he could developed into such a complete footballer. He has all the raw skills to be utterly dominant in several positions.

I don't think you can separate how good we were attacking from how leaky our defence was.

I don't think that our defence was really that shambolic in terms of goals conceded in Rodgers first season. Second half of that season I remember us looking better in all departments, but there seemed to be an emphasis on counter attack footy which obviously has its pitfalls.

In the first half of last season, I'm not sure we'd conceded that many more than the teams around us (and I do remember checking), there had been some good defensive displays with Sturridge as the lone striker.

The second half of the season we transferred to a really attacking style, with Gerrard the playmaker in front of the defence, and that helped us to a ridiculous run with some of the best footy some had said we'd played in decades. We elevated our game but at the cost of us being a lot more open than the year before. There's probably a debate to be had in we would have conceded less with Lucas at DM but maybe we don't win as many games (of course, that's speculative, but Gerrard is obviously more attacking and less competent defensively than Lucas - I think this has been argued plenty so let's not retread)

Looking at the way our defence is playing then it seems to me that this season we've been recovering from a systematic approach in not putting much value on our defensive play. I agree that Rodgers could have reacted sooner but it's a tough old job in there and he's made some big calls to put it right. A lot of managers end up getting sacked because they don't manage to rectify their mistakes so I think it's fair to give him praise.

jooneyisdagod · « **Reply #4859 on:** January 25, 2015, 03:11:44 am »

Quote from: PhaseOfPlay on January 25, 2015, 02:31:55 am

Good players can play anywhere with no real problems. Can is superb. Power, technique, intelligence, and positioning. If I didn't know already, I'd have said he was German. Textbook German player.

Welcome back mate !

diegoLFC7 · « **Reply #4860 on:** January 25, 2015, 03:19:56 am »

MIGneur. I think the defense was great today. Sakho and Can are great on the ball, and have the body to out muscle any attacker. Its weird playing johnson in the back 3, didn't convince me to be honest. Great to see that Skrtel was given a rest, hell be recharged for the rent boys. Can seems like a bargain.

Kopenhagen · « **Reply #4861 on:** January 25, 2015, 04:49:34 am »

Quote from: bradders1011 on January 24, 2015, 11:25:42 pm

Looking forward to the collective blood-letting when Sakho's once a game Cruyff turn finally goes wrong.

Don't worry, there are a few waiting in the bushes to slate him after his next mistake, just as they abused him after the West Ham game.

ShayGuevara · « **Reply #4862 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:29:17 am »

What do we do next season though? It's clear yet again we're only starting to reach the fitness needed to press for 90mins since December, it's a common theme under rodgers. We got away with it last season through Sturridge and Suarez but with extra european football and a world cup hangover we suffered.

Do we persist with this suppoosed idea Rodgers has of trying to hit peak fitness after christmas rather than the old Arsenal crash and burn late on in the season?

With a strong squad can we not press at this intensity throughout a season? Or do we just need more athletes like Henderson?

Halcyon Lissome · « **Reply #4863 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:35:37 am »

Quote from: PhaseOfPlay on January 25, 2015, 02:31:55 am

Good players can play anywhere with no real problems. Can is superb. Power, technique, intelligence, and positioning. If I didn't know already, I'd have said he was German. Textbook German player.

Welcome back mate

GrkStav · « **Reply #4864 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:42:44 am »

Quote from: PhaseOfPlay on January 25, 2015, 02:31:55 am

Good players can play anywhere with no real problems. Can is superb. Power, technique, intelligence, and positioning. If I didn't know already, I'd have said he was German. Textbook German player.

Welcome back, Sir!

PhaseOfPlay · « **Reply #4865 on:** January 25, 2015, 06:05:06 am »

Quote from: ShayGuevara on January 25, 2015, 05:29:17 am

What do we do next season though? It's clear yet again we're only starting to reach the fitness needed to press for 90mins since December, it's a common theme under rodgers. We got away with it last season through Sturridge and Suarez but with extra european football and a world cup hangover we suffered.

Do we persist with this suppoosed idea Rodgers has of trying to hit peak fitness after christmas rather than the old Arsenal crash and burn late on in the season?

With a strong squad can we not press at this intensity throughout a season? Or do we just need more athletes like Henderson?

With a large squad, we could certainly peak a bit earlier, but the fitness issue is not all about "fitness" for the season on its own - it's also about minimising the chances of injury to muscles. We changed it last season by doing harder pre-season work, and we suffered some early muscle injuries. Rodgers probably thought that we couldn't do that this season, with so many players coming back from the World Cup. Next season, though, we will have a proper full pre-season, and I expect us to start a bit more out of the blocks than we did this year.

capt k · « **Reply #4866 on:** January 25, 2015, 06:21:13 am »

Quote from: PhaseOfPlay on January 25, 2015, 06:05:06 am

With a large squad, we could certainly peak a bit earlier, but the fitness issue is not all about "fitness" for the season on its own - it's also about minimising the chances of injury to muscles. We changed it last season by doing harder pre-season work, and we suffered some early muscle injuries. Rodgers probably thought that we couldn't do that this season, with so many players coming back from the World Cup. Next season, though, we will have a proper full pre-season, and I expect us to start a bit more out of the blocks than we did this year.

Wheredafaq you been??

good to see you back POP.

UNO · « **Reply #4867 on:** January 25, 2015, 06:43:09 am »

Quote from: Fiasco on January 24, 2015, 11:55:41 pm

I think Brendan deserves credit for sorting the defence out mate. I was saying 2 months ago that he'll never win much with us unless he learns how to get his teams to defend. Now this system may or may not be a long-term thing but he's shown that he can adapt and come up with ways to make the defence perform better.

At the moment our defence is the least of our worries. It's the forward areas and then the midfield that are the issues (and I mean that relatively).

Well, it's been suggested here, way before Rogers made the changes, that we need to use Lucas, Sakho and Can in the defensive setup. It's not until Lovren made mistakes after mistakes and letting in so many silly goals that Rogers started to admit his 20million new toy is not up to league standard. Thank God the defence looks so much better now.

trembles97 · « **Reply #4868 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:47:02 am »

Bet Sakho-Agger-Can would have been a great back 3. With Skrtel and Lovren (or Wisdom) available for cover.

Instead we play Johnson back there. And decide to give him a new contract.

But anyways. I think we should move away from using a back 3 for home games. Play the diamond again. We were really dangerous at home using it last season. Play Can as the deepest lying with Henderson and Coutinho ahead of him. Bet the system might even fit Balotelli.

AirConGipsyRed · « **Reply #4869 on:** January 25, 2015, 08:14:28 am »

nice to see you back pop

Yiannis · « **Reply #4870 on:** January 25, 2015, 11:25:55 am »

Welcome back PoP. Know you're being bombarded with questions/mentions, so here is mine too:

In a 3-man defense, is it a 'necessity' to have a defender who is very good with the ball on his feet, who can carry it and spot a good pass (either a long one or one that relieves the pressure off defense)? Personally, I think so and even though Sakho, no matter what his style is, is good at almost all of these traits, Can I think is absolutely superb at all of them even though CB is not his natural position.

Redman0151 · « **Reply #4871 on:** January 25, 2015, 11:33:02 am »

Noticed at the match yesterday that Can seemed to be taking control in the defence, he was communicating constantly, telling Johnson to tuck in, pointing for mignolet to play it to somebody.

Maybe he's growing into the leader we've lacked all along, it's not often you see a 21 year old organising a defence

robgomm · « **Reply #4872 on:** January 25, 2015, 11:43:14 am »

Given you're a sort of half back or centre/full back in the two wider CB positions, I'd quite like Manquillo given a go in the right sided spot as Johnson was. I think although he has a great engine he lacks attacking instinct on the ball but is solid defensively. Sure we'll keep working on him going forward but might be worth a shot.

Redman0151 · « **Reply #4873 on:** January 25, 2015, 11:50:27 am »

Quote from: robgomm on January 25, 2015, 11:43:14 am

Given you're a sort of half back or centre/full back in the two wider CB positions, I'd quite like Manquillo given a go in the right sided spot as Johnson was. I think although he has a great engine he lacks attacking instinct on the ball but is solid defensively. Sure we'll keep working on him going forward but might be worth a shot.

I'm guessing the issue is that whilst Manquillo is a great defender (i've posted them before but his defensive output stats are incredible), he's only ~5'8 and not particularly strong. If he comes up against Benteke, Carroll, Lukaku it's near impossible for him to come out on top

Nessy76 · « **Reply #4874 on:** January 25, 2015, 11:53:36 am »

Amazing to think that we've now conceded just two goals in five games, and one of them was from the penalty spot. One in five from open play is astonishing form.

Mamadou · « **Reply #4875 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:09:16 pm »

Can is our best summer signing

Giono · « **Reply #4876 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:32:10 pm »

Quote from: Mamadou on January 25, 2015, 12:09:16 pm

Can is our best summer signing

On effectiveness alone he is. And when you add his transfer fee to the calculation...holy crap that was good business.

Cohiba · « **Reply #4877 on:** January 25, 2015, 01:14:48 pm »

I thought both Can and Sakho were both excellent yesterday and hope that they remain at the back for the rest of the season. It was interesting to see the confidence that Mignolet had as well, which seems to be growing over the last few games so much so that im now not sure that he needs to be replaced. His reaction saves are fantastic and with a stronger defense coupled with the growing understanding that will come from playing with a more consistent back line will naturally mean he will know when to come and command his area and when to stay. I would love to hear PoPs thoughts on this. I do wonder if next season Can will be moved more into the Lucas area. He just seems a truly fantastic asset and reads the game so well despite his age.

I hope that with the lessons Brendan will hopefully have learnt this season, a group of new players that now seem to have developed a telepathy which coupled with a full pre seasons fitness training allowing us to press with intensity from possibly November and the obvious necessary striker which MUST be the overriding transfer target priority will hopefully mean next season could be special. We must get this right.

bigbear · « **Reply #4878 on:** January 25, 2015, 01:47:58 pm »

Yep, Can is looking very good. He reminds me of Beckenbauer the way he glides through from the back. That's twice in 2 games he has almost gone the whole way and one day he is going to score an amazing goal.

I suppose he gives us the option of reverting to the formation we used last year in the Gerrard role and also switching into a back 3 in the same game.

Sakho is getting better and better. His passing which has always been under scrutiny is actually outstanding.

Mr_Shane · « **Reply #4879 on:** January 25, 2015, 02:15:54 pm »

The two players Sakho and can are excellent and crucial if we decide to play like this. good defending ability as well as passing ability, and as Rodgers seems to want, good at one on one duels with forwards and strikers. Not only do we have a good defensive base, its also a platform to launch our attacks. Now we are starting to be able to handle opposition presses and launch the passes to quick and mobile forwards, which in turn forces the opposition back. The other thing to be wary about is the counter attacks and long balls, which I am confident we can deal with if we have Sakho, Can and Lucas... (and a sweeper-goalie would be even better)

If we move Can to midfield, I think we need a similar player for this to work