Author Topic: Liverpool's Defence  (Read 697052 times)

Offline TwatMan

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Liverpool's Defence
« on: August 16, 2014, 08:21:53 am »
Making a new thread as the older threads are pretty old  ;D. Mods, please feel free to merge.

Anfield index has done a comprehensive analysis of the goals conceded in 2013-14 season and the culpability for the goals. It contains the video clips of the goals we conceded and also pics containing the markings and snippets. Can only imagine the great deal of work that went into it.

It's pretty interesting. What our folks make of this?

http://anfieldindex.com/8762/liverpool-goals-conceded-201314-video-clips.html
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 09:46:09 pm by The 5th Benitle »
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Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 09:04:23 am »
So, does everyone expect Lovren & Skrtel to be tomorrow's centre back pairing?
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Offline Zoomers

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 09:05:52 am »
Hopefully we don't have to bump this thread 24/7 this season.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 09:07:37 am »
Making a new thread as the older threads are pretty old  ;D. Mods, please feel free to merge.

Anfield index has done a comprehensive analysis of the goals conceded in 2013-14 season and the culpability for the goals. It contains the video clips of the goals we conceded and also pics containing the markings and snippets. Can only imagine the great deal of work that went into it.

It's pretty interesting. What our folks make of this?

http://anfieldindex.com/8762/liverpool-goals-conceded-201314-video-clips.html

Oh good, it's got its own thread now. I posted it on the audio/video thread.

I am extremely interested in the judgment of PoP and the rest of the actually knowledgeable posters on some of their 'assignments of culpability'.
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Offline SquirrelandGman

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 09:35:27 am »
As long as lovren keeps screaming orders..we're good.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 09:39:12 am »
As long as lovren keeps screaming orders..we're good.


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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 09:45:18 am »
be amazed if skrtel and louvren dont start.

sakho needs to understand the importance of the defensive line.

swansea second was triggerd by him.
arsenal opener the same.
city winner....2 fatal mistakes with the same decision.

all caused by the willingness to follow a dropping off striker out like a lost puppy.

wouldnt mind so much but on those occasions he wasnt goign to win the ball.
unaware fo any mayhem he causes imo
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 09:58:19 am »
be amazed if skrtel and louvren dont start.

sakho needs to understand the importance of the defensive line.

swansea second was triggerd by him.
arsenal opener the same.
city winner....2 fatal mistakes with the same decision.

all caused by the willingness to follow a dropping off striker out like a lost puppy.

wouldnt mind so much but on those occasions he wasnt goign to win the ball.
unaware fo any mayhem he causes imo

Or the rest of the defensive line needs to learn to stop dropping deep as their only option. Lovren plays similar to Sakho he pushes up, so if our defence does the same and don't follow him the exact same issues will occur. Luckily we now have 2 front foot aggressive full backs who will play a higher line, so whoever joins them will need to keep the new line and stop with the retreating shite which doesn't work.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2014, 10:00:22 am »
be amazed if skrtel and louvren dont start.

sakho needs to understand the importance of the defensive line.

swansea second was triggerd by him.
arsenal opener the same.
city winner....2 fatal mistakes with the same decision.

all caused by the willingness to follow a dropping off striker out like a lost puppy.

wouldnt mind so much but on those occasions he wasnt goign to win the ball.
unaware fo any mayhem he causes imo
Alternatively, Skrtel needs to stop automatically dropping off.

We haven't signed Lovren to defend the edge of our box all the time, that's not how he plays. He likes to challenge his forwards and push them back and that's why long term I think it'll be him and Sakho.

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2014, 12:34:19 pm »
with our system how can we not back off?

we have one dm and gerarrds not a true dm.

the fullbacks tend to be used far more as part of the passign game so a lot fo the time they leave space behind them.
the cb's have to cover this space a lot so naturally when one gets played wider they have to back off.

also we start the line off deep a lot so we get space to dictate from deep.

im all for a dortmund style pressing game but we only have henderson and lucas who would fit into a quality pressing system...even so subotic and hummels back off a lot...they stay as a unit even if its just the two of them.

none of this shit we have seen from sakho
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2014, 12:37:15 pm »
with our system how can we not back off?

we have one dm and gerarrds not a true dm.

the fullbacks tend to be used far more as part of the passign game so a lot fo the time they leave space behind them.
the cb's have to cover this space a lot so naturally when one gets played wider they have to back off.

also we start the line off deep a lot so we get space to dictate from deep.

im all for a dortmund style pressing game but we only have henderson and lucas who would fit into a quality pressing system...even so subotic and hummels back off a lot...they stay as a unit even if its just the two of them.

none of this shit we have seen from sakho

Lallana, Allen, Coutiinho, Sterling all harry and press from the front, the key to this working is the defensive line being 10 yards further up the pitch, condensing the space ahead and leaving Gerrard with far less to cover. We've also bought 2 fullbacks who have the engines to get back and defend, compared to the lackadaisical Johnson.

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 12:47:28 pm »
fullbacks still used early as part of the passing game.
1 dm

any forcing or pressing system will still catch the fullbacks out so backing off is still a must.
even dortmunds 2 still back of plenty.

the key is understanding.

look at the city goal again btw......the only explanations ive had is that lucas's fault...or skrtel backed off.
why are people so eager to avoid blaming sakho for that?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 12:49:57 pm »
with our system how can we not back off?

we have one dm and gerarrds not a true dm.

the fullbacks tend to be used far more as part of the passign game so a lot fo the time they leave space behind them.
the cb's have to cover this space a lot so naturally when one gets played wider they have to back off.

also we start the line off deep a lot so we get space to dictate from deep.

im all for a dortmund style pressing game but we only have henderson and lucas who would fit into a quality pressing system...even so subotic and hummels back off a lot...they stay as a unit even if its just the two of them.

none of this shit we have seen from sakho

The point is that when one defender steps out as the ball goes forward, they should all be stepping out to compress the space. If they don't, then gaps appear. The "sh*t" that you see from Sakho is what you would expect a proactive defender to do. It's not about dropping off or stepping up - it's about doing one or the other at the right moment, rather than doing one all of the time. It's a matter of mentality, and the mentality of the back four should all be the same. We have too many times when defenders across the back four (and in midfield too) are ball-watching rather than getting position.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 12:51:47 pm »
but there has to be a ballance in his thinking when he comes out?

ie..what am i leaving behind me?
what chance have i got if winning it?
what will happen if i dont win it?


on some of those he clearly hasnt read whats going on around him.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 12:56:32 pm »
but there has to be a ballance in his thinking when he comes out?

ie..what am i leaving behind me?
what chance have i got if winning it?
what will happen if i dont win it?


on some of those he clearly hasnt read whats going on around him.

If the line pushes up with him, then the first question is moot because you are playing players offside
The second question is a good question, but he might not need to win the ball, but prevent the player from turning
The third question is precisely the point that's being made - too often our defenders answer that question in the negative, and so drop off when they could have held position or stepped up and forced the ball backwards. It's a question of mentality rather than decision.

What are the jobs of the first defender (the closest one to the ball or about-to-be the closest one to the ball)?
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2014, 12:58:39 pm »
if you simply press the space from back there your leaving yourself open to attackers using space you leave behind.
and een you said last year yes you have to be aware whats going on.

take swansea....look at michus positioning
look at the winners positioning.

thats 2 players who cant really react ...sakhos not aware.
bony drops off lucas reacts but sakho has already come out.........triggers the run from shelvey....midfielders other side wont be able to react in time and lucas has already reacted to bony.

sakho read it wrong...reacted wrong.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2014, 12:59:59 pm »
If the line pushes up with him, then the first question is moot because you are playing players offside
The second question is a good question, but he might not need to win the ball, but prevent the player from turning
The third question is precisely the point that's being made - too often our defenders answer that question in the negative, and so drop off when they could have held position or stepped up and forced the ball backwards. It's a question of mentality rather than decision.

What are the jobs of the first defender (the closest one to the ball or about-to-be the closest one to the ball)?

if the line pushes up.....

but are they being drilled to do that?
from what we can see thats not what they are being drilled to do....if they are then surely skrtel and the others get dropped.sakho keeps his place.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2014, 01:04:43 pm »
if you simply press the space from back there your leaving yourself open to attackers using space you leave behind.
and een you said last year yes you have to be aware whats going on.

take swansea....look at michus positioning
look at the winners positioning.

thats 2 players who cant really react ...sakhos not aware.
bony drops off lucas reacts but sakho has already come out.........triggers the run from shelvey....midfielders other side wont be able to react in time and lucas has already reacted to bony.

sakho read it wrong...reacted wrong.

We discussed this at the time. Sakho made the right decision at the time. Nobody picking up Shelvey is what caused the goal. If a forward checks back, the defender has to decide whether to go with him. That's why attackers make checking runs. If you don't go with him, they get space to turn and time to play, and then you have to step out anyway to contain them, only now they are facing the goal with the ball. It's a dilemma for defenders, but you can't blame a player for a goal for marking a checking run, that's just ridiculous. If they don't go with the man, and the player turns and shoots and scores from 30 yards out, then the defender gets blamed for not going with the man. Sakho didn't cause that goal at all. Not one bit. He did what would be reasonably expected of him in that situation. The space wasn't covered behind him, and run of Shelvey wasn't tracked by any of our midfield - especially Gerrard, who was the nearest marker at the time. That's where the goal happened. Not the marking run of Sakho.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2014, 01:05:59 pm »
if the line pushes up.....

but are they being drilled to do that?
from what we can see thats not what they are being drilled to do....if they are then surely skrtel and the others get dropped.sakho keeps his place.

They shouldn't have to be drilled, it's basic zonal defending principles - compression, balance, cover (angles and distance).

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2014, 02:23:04 pm »
thats your oppinion if you believe that decision was right fair play.

to me it was wrong.
why be "proactive" when they would have to work to create something from there?
if the ball is played in the danger area fair enough.

dont fall for a striker dropping off to so easily break the line especially if you havent spotted that your colleagues were pre occupied.

also lucas was almost back so what harm would have there been holding bony up a split second more?...rathert han leaveing space where shelvey then made a beeline for?

to me that did cause the goal.

the city goal was far worse btw
simply because he doesnt see cissokhos runner is goalside ....the more you look at it the more shocking it looks
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2014, 02:25:12 pm »
They shouldn't have to be drilled, it's basic zonal defending principles - compression, balance, cover (angles and distance).



i would be shocked if there was no work done and new players were left to get on with it...please tell me thats not true.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2014, 02:33:44 pm »
i would be shocked if there was no work done and new players were left to get on with it...please tell me thats not true.

I'm not saying there's no work done, I'm saying they should already know what to do. It then comes down to mentality - whether you're a reactive or a proactive defender.

In the old days, a defence would be set up with a stopper centre half and a sweeper centre half and you could have one of each and it would work (with two markers as well who were reactive). But with zonal defending you have to be together as a unit and be reactive at times, and proactive at times, and there are clear triggers in the game for which way to be. Mentality comes into it when one portion of the defence is reactive but the other is proactive at the same trigger. That's where gaps appear and goals are conceded.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2014, 02:35:54 pm »
thats your oppinion if you believe that decision was right fair play.

to me it was wrong.
why be "proactive" when they would have to work to create something from there?
if the ball is played in the danger area fair enough.

dont fall for a striker dropping off to so easily break the line especially if you havent spotted that your colleagues were pre occupied.

also lucas was almost back so what harm would have there been holding bony up a split second more?...rathert han leaveing space where shelvey then made a beeline for?

to me that did cause the goal.

the city goal was far worse btw
simply because he doesnt see cissokhos runner is goalside ....the more you look at it the more shocking it looks

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of reading what was on in the game in the moment and deciding where the error was, or where the greater error was. Bony checked for the ball, Sakho went with him. That is reasonable in anybody's book. Not marking Shelvey's run, and not compressing when Sakho stepped out? You'd fail your B licence for not seeing and coaching that.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2014, 03:00:34 pm »
Our defence may be transformed this year as depending on how things work out / new signings getting the nod of confidence eventually once they get their feet on the ground we could be starting a lot of games with these

Manquilo Skrtel Lovren Moreno

I could have listed 3 or 4 different players as Flanagan, Sakho, Agger, Johnson, Enrique could all get a nod as well which itself shows we have strength in depth. It could take time for us to get a good mix as there is a lot of new faces out there and usually that means give them time to get the blend right and learn what Brendan wants from them.

Thing is what level of excellence will we reach with the 1st choice as last season our defence probably cost us the title. Yes we could have scored more goals which also cost us but in balance when you have the best scoring Liverpool team in decades versus the same team conceding a lot of goals then you cant help wondering what if ..what if we had more clean sheets?

I am hoping the defence as a whole will want to fight for every clean sheet we can get as their own pride took a hit last year I am sure. While we were in the conversation of possible title winners there was always mumblings that if anything will let us down in the race might be our defence. In the end it was I think. But I definitely like the look of Lovren as he looks like a stronger version of Agger and that would be a tremendous addition. The defence last season was missing that leadership skills of a Carra so if Lovren can add that command in the back the unit as a whole will prosper

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2014, 05:47:22 pm »
It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of reading what was on in the game in the moment and deciding where the error was, or where the greater error was. Bony checked for the ball, Sakho went with him. That is reasonable in anybody's book. Not marking Shelvey's run, and not compressing when Sakho stepped out? You'd fail your B licence for not seeing and coaching that.

skrtel and cissokho couldnt condense the back line.
both have players the other side of them so to leave them would leave them wide open....particularly michu who would have had an acre.
cissokho would have left his man ont he touchline but still and easy option.

lucas had actually made a beeline for bony.

what would the b license say there?

these things are never black n white...there were other factors which were noted.

note..the website says lucas was part to blame yet he went to bony correctly!


can you run us by the city one pop also.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2014, 06:03:07 pm »
skrtel and cissokho couldnt condense the back line.
both have players the other side of them so to leave them would leave them wide open....particularly michu who would have had an acre.
cissokho would have left his man ont he touchline but still and easy option.

lucas had actually made a beeline for bony.

what would the b license say there?

these things are never black n white...there were other factors which were noted.

note..the website says lucas was part to blame yet he went to bony correctly!


can you run us by the city one pop also.

Rather than retype a lot of stuff already said, here is my analysis of it the week it happened:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=308703.msg12014873#msg12014873

As I said then - Sakho moving with Bony DOES create space in behind, and the rest of the defenders could have reacted differently.

However, failure to track Shelvey's run was the biggest error in that goal

And Sakho tracking Bony wasn't an error as such. He would be reasonably expected to do that at any level. Lucas may have been in the vicinity, but Bony starts his run further back and Lucas doesn't see him until he receives. Sakho - IN THAT VERY MOMENT - has a decision to make, and both decisions have consequences. Either decision requires other players to cover or defend actively. You might say that he should have been aware of what was behind him, but all players behind him were marked. He wasn't leaving any free players that would have prevented him from checking with Bony. 8 Liverpool players between Shelvey and the ball before he makes the first pass, and nobody picks up the large, bald-headed midfielder making a sprint towards the box - whether Sakho was there or not. The error wasn't Sakho's. The error was in midfield.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2014, 06:06:09 pm »
Which City goal are we talking about, incidentally?
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2014, 06:20:36 pm »
anyway onto the next.
city away ....

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 06:21:35 pm »
negredos winner.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 06:22:11 pm »
anyway onto the next.
city away ....

Got it.

What specifically are you asking about it?

« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 06:26:41 pm by PhaseOfPlay »
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2014, 06:28:24 pm »
people moan about skrtel backing off but what else could he have done once sakho stays with negredo and fails to see the runner goalside of cissokho?
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2014, 06:43:27 pm »
I've watched the first half of that video and the thing that strikes me most is how there is not a single example of an opposition player being put through alone behind the defence.  Now, an opposition player by themself behind your defence is the worst case scenario, I'm not advocating that the defence do more of it.  However, I think it is indicative of the personality of the defenders that for half a season they didn't at any point get caught stepping up.  They were always retreating.  Sometimes the retreating goes all the way to our own six yard box.

I think Rodgers would prefer his defenders getting beaten trying to make something happen, attacking rather than being attacked.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2014, 06:50:02 pm »
people moan about skrtel backing off but what else could he have done once sakho stays with negredo and fails to see the runner goalside of cissokho?

If I remember correctly, Skrtel created the situation by moving across to the ball rather than letting Sakho contain from the position he was in.

Here is the start position:



Skrtel moves across instead of retreating, and Sakho moves to take his place. This creates the momentary passing lane that gets the ball to Negredo:



Skrtel attempting to intercept puts him in a bad spot that takes him out of the game, whereas if he'd let the ball go, and turned and made a recover run to the line of the ball, he would have been in a better position to defend.

Again, though, no pressure on the ball originally is what gets City in the position to make the play in the first place. After that, it's a domino effect.
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Offline MrRaptorTurtle

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2014, 06:50:06 pm »
people moan about skrtel backing off but what else could he have done once sakho stays with negredo and fails to see the runner goalside of cissokho?
Or yerno...Mignolet getting completely done by a shite shot.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2014, 06:51:47 pm »
Or yerno...Mignolet getting completely done by a shite shot.

No it was a vicious shot. He hit it with some spin on it, and although Mignolet could have done better, he was 1v1 against a good forward in a position he shouldn't have been put in.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2014, 07:01:21 pm »
I see this all the time, that letting a player cross the ball is a mistake.  What do professionals and coaches think about that?  What is actually expected?  It seems to me that the vast majority of attempted crosses get past the first defender, the one defending the crosser.  To cross the ball you only need half a yard.

It would seem to my uneducated mind that what the defender can be expected to do is pressure the cross enough that the crosser has to make that cross without looking up, and ideally using his wrong foot.  You can't really stop players from crossing the ball, thinking that a full back should stop any crosses coming across during the entirety of a game seems ludicrous, but you can expect to make that cross an aimless, hit-and-hope ball.

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2014, 07:08:42 pm »
I see this all the time, that letting a player cross the ball is a mistake.  What do professionals and coaches think about that?  What is actually expected?  It seems to me that the vast majority of attempted crosses get past the first defender, the one defending the crosser.  To cross the ball you only need half a yard.

It would seem to my uneducated mind that what the defender can be expected to do is pressure the cross enough that the crosser has to make that cross without looking up, and ideally using his wrong foot.  You can't really stop players from crossing the ball, thinking that a full back should stop any crosses coming across during the entirety of a game seems ludicrous, but you can expect to make that cross an aimless, hit-and-hope ball.

What they should be doing is delaying to allow numbers to recover, then making play predictable by making the path of the cross obvious (like you say, for example, putting them on their weak foot). Delay enough for a 2nd defender to come in, and then you can think about blocking the cross or regaining the ball.
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Offline Haggis36

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2014, 08:24:42 pm »
Why on Earth are we discussing two goals (vs. Swansea and City) that were in no way shape or form Sakho's fault? Jeez talk about agendas. The first is caused by other players not picking up runners properly, the second is caused by Skrtel's poor judgement.

On our defence as a whole, it's good to see we've got in our first choice players in an area where we were incredibly weak last season. I don't know how soon or how much we'll see of most people's "favoured" back four (assuming of course that it is is Lovren +1, Manquillo and Moreno) as I fear there is a bit of a management blind spot when it comes to Johnson and I don't know if we are going to rush in to having two very young (and in Manquillo's case very inexperienced) players in those positions.

The discussion of Sakho/Skrtel has been done to death already and the season hasn't even started yet, you can be sure that will drag on all season, but I guess it's nice to know that whoever starts has someone breathing down their necks should they start making mistakes! For me the ideal pairing would be Sakho/Lovren, but I have an inkling we won't see much of it, but we'll all have to trust Rodgers on that one.

Interesting that article in the OP, though. Neither Skrtel or Lucas come out of it well at all, in fact I'd go as far as to say it's quite scathing on both! Lucas won't play much this year but it does make somewhat concerning reading if Skrtel is going to be part of our #1 CB pairing. I do worry that the fairly opposing defensive tendencies of Skrtel and Lovren might leave us a bit at sea sometimes, but we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Just as long as we stop conceding two or three goals to absolutely rancid teams. Please, no more!

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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2014, 01:53:45 am »


Interesting that article in the OP, though. Neither Skrtel or Lucas come out of it well at all, in fact I'd go as far as to say it's quite scathing on both! Lucas won't play much this year but it does make somewhat concerning reading if Skrtel is going to be part of our #1 CB pairing. I do worry that the fairly opposing defensive tendencies of Skrtel and Lovren might leave us a bit at sea sometimes, but we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Just as long as we stop conceding two or three goals to absolutely rancid teams. Please, no more!

It is scathing on both. And, in my non-expert but considered judgment, unfairly (to put it mildly) scathing, bordering on the delusional. The author(s) seem to be quite self-assured that they understand football, formations, the duties and responsibilities of various positions, how the 'double-pivot' should operate, etc.

Based on my own 'education' here by the folks who are truly expert, I found their analyses to be premised on (what appear to me to be) false premises and erroneous criteria.

Prime example of that is their constant reference to players, especially midfielders (Gerrard does not escape their wrath), "failing to track" opponents making "runs". Taking their basic argument to its logical conclusion, all runs by opponents must be "tracked", otherwise a defensive failure or error has occurred. To me, this is absolute nonsense. If we ever faced opponents who did that, we would annihilate them with the greatest of ease.

Furthermore, the approach of only looking at 'failures' (i.e. goals conceded) is decidedly pre-scientific (I am being generous). These folks do not like the double-pivot with Lucas and Gerrard as the pivots. Therefore, any goal conceded that could be remotely, tendentially, somehow be related to the presence of both Gerrard and Lucas on the pitch and their deployment as a 'double pivot' is "evidence" that "demonstrates" the truth of their (literal) prejudice.
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Re: Liverpool Defence
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2014, 02:03:30 am »
It is scathing on both. And, in my non-expert but considered judgment, unfairly (to put it mildly) scathing, bordering on the delusional. The author(s) seem to be quite self-assured that they understand football, formations, the duties and responsibilities of various positions, how the 'double-pivot' should operate, etc.

Based on my own 'education' here by the folks who are truly expert, I found their analyses to be premised on (what appear to me to be) false premises and erroneous criteria.

Prime example of that is their constant reference to players, especially midfielders (Gerrard does not escape their wrath), "failing to track" opponents making "runs". Taking their basic argument to its logical conclusion, all runs by opponents must be "tracked", otherwise a defensive failure or error has occurred. To me, this is absolute nonsense. If we ever faced opponents who did that, we would annihilate them with the greatest of ease.

Furthermore, the approach of only looking at 'failures' (i.e. goals conceded) is decidedly pre-scientific (I am being generous). These folks do not like the double-pivot with Lucas and Gerrard as the pivots. Therefore, any goal conceded that could be remotely, tendentially, somehow be related to the presence of both Gerrard and Lucas on the pitch and their deployment as a 'double pivot' is "evidence" that "demonstrates" the truth of their (literal) prejudice.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I was 100% certain you had decided the entire article was bollocks when you posted it, purely because of the amount of blame apportioned to Lucas in it. I didn't go back and watch all the goals again, and a number stuck out in my memory anyway because of how fucking annoying they were when we conceded them. I do think (having not watched the goals again) that it's a little harsh on Lucas though, and probably fair on Skrtel.

Having said that, if Lucas and/or Gerrard are meant to be our most defensive midfielder(s) (I'm aware they play the role in different ways) then there are definite questions to be asked when opposition players are able to run at our defence unchallenged. Even more so if both of them are playing deep and supposedly "shielding the defence". It was well documented last season how much poorer our underlying stats were when we played the Lucas/Gerrard double pivot - noticeably so. Even subjectively, we looked FAR better when we switched to one or the other (be it enforced by injury or by choice), I don't think that's necessarily a prejudice so much as it is an observation.