Author Topic: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0  (Read 6158 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« on: December 15, 2014, 10:39:39 pm »
That was painful.

Picture yourself sitting in the pub after the corresponding fixture last season, smug and happy. We had dismissed them, almost as a matter of course, swatted them aside like flies. You are approached by an uncommonly handsome OP who leans down and whispers in your ear, wafting a masculine scent of tobacco and Irishness. "This game next year, you'll have no Suarez or Sturridge, Gerrard will be a year older and the defence will have gotten worse, not better. Your strikers will be so shit, the manager will have to start Sterling up front and he'll get chances too, only De Gea will save every single fucking one. Things will get so bad, Touré coming on will be cheered. And you will be tonked."

Naturally, I do not possess any time travel capabilities and you remained undisturbed back in your post win pub, still smug and happy while we in the present are pained and hopeless. Perhaps this was a necessary step. For long periods of the game, we were the better side and we created more than them. But for a rookie striker and a keeper on song, the result could have been very different and we looked a little more like our old selves, a little more imposing. On the other hand, we made Valencia look like Messi and let Mata score a header. Baby steps.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 09:52:24 am »
Probably the best RT we could've asked for mate! ta.
Yep.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 10:27:36 am »
Such a painful defeat made more painful by the fact this United was there for the taking. But if you asked your friend to record it for you, cutting out all the goals and censoring the scoreline, how would you feel at the finish?

It's hard to say anything positive because the emotions are so strong on this one, but we did have our moments. The high press, our fleet of technical players passing, moving, pressing. Fellaini was trying to play us in the entire first half. I said in the HT thread - if Sterling took Coutinho's spot and Sturridge took Sterling's on the day, that side would have had something in it. Though to be fair to the little magician he grew into the game (as I was later chastised in the HT thread).

But these games are getting harder to talk about or analyze, aren't they? The malaise is seeping into the joints now. Press leaks are heaping blame one direction and then the other. Retired players are slating our new players and saying they need shipping out in January. Mignolet is 'indefinitely' benched and 'not a Rodgers signing' in the first point. The analysis is all aimed off field now. We're not talking about key passes and tackles but committee voting rules and John Henry.

I think we're going to be in this rut until Sturridge comes back and I don't suspect we'll see a 180 degree turn around then but at least an uptick in form. This is because our team is fractured. Besides the reported bust up with Lovren and Gerrard, what has drawn my attention most is the connection between Balotelli and Sterling - or, rather, the lack of connection and trust and teamwork. And to be fair, primarily it's on Sterling's side. Many, many, many times he as refused to cut back or play Balotelli in, and other time he's not understood what Mario was thinking and done the exact opposite of what was needed (to run, to come in close, etc). Our only hope is that those two can start making something happen together, I think.

It's going to be a long season. But it is football so there's always the chance of a total turn around. See the 6-game freak of a run United have been on while playing like shit as a perfect example.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 10:29:48 am by GregCharrua »

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 12:18:19 pm »
I have to say that in the build up to this one I had a strange feeling the side would do well. Everyone seemed to be tipping an easy United win, yet I felt that I had seen the seeds of recovery in the last few weeks; four games unbeaten and a more balanced looking side. It was the games that preceded those four that made the performances look an awful lot worse. I had some small hope that Liverpool might take everyone by surprise and beat United by a goal. I was (and remain) far more worried by the Arsenal match to come.

That small flame of hope was effectively extinguished when I saw the team announced. I knew Liverpool were in trouble earlier than that when it was confirmed that Jones would be starting. I don't know anyone who had advocated that even during the worse weeks of Mignolet's dip in form. More to the point, why drop him now when he had improved somewhat? Inexplicable. More was to come. I don't hold Lucas up as any great example of the midfield craft, but I am always relieved to see him in the side. Why? Because I at least know he will put in the tackles and try a leg around the pitch. He is hardworking and feisty. That is a minimum starting point for me. Similarly Toure, sure he occasionally headers the ball backwards, but he has desire, drive. What I saw on Sunday, minus Lucas and Toure, was, with the odd exception, a bunch of fannies getting bullied around Old Trafford.

I know, I know, this is the round table, I am supposed to do measured reflection, point to formations etc. And I could do that. The backline was unbalanced and experimental. Moreno was some kind of wing back, I honestly have no idea. On the other side it was Johnson/Toure playing some hybrid FB/WB/CB. It was just weird. Henderson was losing the run of himself and Markovic when he came on was similarly clueless as to his role. Up front it was three AMs but no outlet. We started all these attacking, technical players and didn't bother giving them a focal point in a striker. Balotelli actually looked invested when he came on simply because the bar had been set so low in the first half. There was a lot of huff and puff (which was something) but then came the first goal; Allen nutmegged, Moreno out of position (wherever that was supposed to be) Lovren standing beside Skrtel, keeping him company, Jones jumping the wrong way... shocking stuff. After that Liverpool tried to shuffle their way through the half. It was all about individuals trying for individual moments of excellence. On TV it was grim, reports from the game say the atmosphere on the pitch was toxic. Whatever hope had been offered by the feisty start was gone after the first goal. By the time the second goal came, Liverpool looked like a team that knew their goose was cooked.

The second half was better (shades of Basel) but that was largely down to one or two individuals doing something exceptional, rather than a concerted plan of attack. Sterling missed glorious opportunities, yes. His decision-making ad finishing are suspect, but at least he tries, at least he gets in position. And so i return to my original criticism. A right bunch of fannies. Allen was picked on all game. Coutinho was up ended by rota. Lallana was boxed out and made peripheral by rugged United players. Fellaini, yard dog, spent the game caning whatever Liverpool player came toward him. Where was the retribution? Where was the spirit? truly frustrating. I was most angered by the CBs though. Skrtel watching RVP jump and flick a ball on to Mata (offside, I know). Seriously, try to at least jump with him. Lovren, like bambi on ice, half clearing a ball to the on-rushing United player... Jones buying the mannequin offered and leaving a big empty net for the third. Christ on a crutch.

The worst part is Liverpool didn't play that badly and still got trounced... by a bad united side missing a host of players and not actually fielding any of the transfers from the summer. That's right, it was a team from last year + injuries that turned Liverpool over. Garbage.

I said it after the game and I say it again now; that result was the managers fault. Poor team selection compounded afterwards by his insistence that Mignolet will continue to be second choice. It feels like the (reported) rift at board room level is being played out on the pitch and that is just wrong.

Anyway, that is how I saw it.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:20:59 pm by DonkeyWan »
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 12:18:37 pm »
We weren't the best team in the world last year, and we're not the shittest this year. Brendan wasn't the messiah last year and he's not a naughty boy this year. The frustration is more keenly felt because of last season, but without making excuses for anyone, (we have been stodgy and shite at a lot of times) we don't have a proper strike force and our play has been disrupted accordingly. Something will happen.
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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 12:47:16 pm »
its getting pretty difficult to say anything different these past few weeks, its widely accepted we have had one really good game all season and looked well out of sorts at all other times.

this game reminded us that we do have some fighting spirit but also reinforced we don't have any strike force whatsoever. to lump sterling with this pressure is completely unfair on him, id rather even borini started, or lambert. our defence was hopeless on the day, the result is all important and we looked well beaten by the end.

it hurts because we could all see how abysmal utd were and we couldn't find even a consolation goal for our endeavour.

so many things seem to be going wrong at once and I think its important to stress that injuries have played a large part in it. im not a particularly optimistic person and fail to see what can change to turn our fortunes around, at least for this season.
- all in my opinion of course -

Offline RAWK Meltdown #1

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 12:49:07 pm »
Pre-game and talking to a Middlesbrough supporting colleague....I said I'd gladly take a 3-0 loss at Old Trafford. And by this I meant that we were so obviously on a downward path, and they were so obviously on an 'upward' one [however tentative] ...I basically feared a high-profile drubbing of much higher and embarrassingly epic proportions.

I just could not see where any of our goals were going to come from? Sometimes you can't see WHO the goals are going to come from, but there's a stage even worse than this when you cannot even envisage HOW we're going to score, even if the entire team played in boiler-suits and "stig" like helmets, so that you didn't officially know who was who!!

But Sterling [in front of goal] would have been identifiable on Sunday, that's for sure.

Mario would have been identifiable just by body language alone.

Coutinho letting Rooney maraud forward unchallenged?  mmmmm? It would be safe to swear down that this wasn't Henderson at least!!

The three chaps that were cleaved apart [mugged] on the left hand side for their first goal....?? It gets trickier still.

The defensive line that lost awareness of Mata even being in the stadium, let alone surging forwards towards the back post?  mmmmm?  WHO could it be leading this line today?

Was there even a shout/appeal from Mignolet?

Wait, was that even Mignolet between the sticks this afternoon?

[It's hard to tell with these "stig-masks" and boiler suits...]

I could go on with this, but my point is that there are exploitable frailties in ALL departments, and this is being evidenced by ALL personnel at present.

Whether or not these frailties have deeper roots within affairs which are occurring off the pitch?...well there are other threads for those kind of meditations, so I'll respectfully leave it there.

We can still knock a ball around, we can still threaten goal, we can still have little bursts of intelligent build-up play.....but Sunday's game for me was very much on par with my current level of belief and expectation from this group of men.

When I see my Middlesbrough supporting colleague next, there will be the usual smug grin of the 'oracle' supporter who has fluked an accurate prediction in his meaningless pre-match banter.....but that is far from satisfying. 

As was this result.

Predictable [unfortunately]

But disturbingly so!!!


 :(
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:51:09 pm by Calm_Down_x3 »
YNWA

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 12:58:16 pm »
It was indeed painful. 0-3, some weak defending, a horrible mistake by the linesman and their goalie was MOTM. I guess there are positives to take from the game. We created chances. That was good. Better than we have seen for a while. But it was also a game that was typical for our season. We have no real edge to our game. We're weak everywhere. Last season we were extremely sharp going forward, but weak at the back. Now we're just weak everywhere. And that won't win us football games.

The line up for the day was strange. Not just because we had Johnson as one of the back three. We had no striker and we decided to go with Jones ahead of Mignolet. And of course we decided to bench Lucas, move Gerrard back to the deepest role in midfield and Toure was benched for Lovren. Not a great start IMO. I liked how we put pressure on their defence. Blomqvist, the old Man U winger, commented on tv over here that he wasn't impressed with Utd's defenders. He thought they made simple mistakes. I can only agree. I'd say that part of our game plan worked. Unfortunately, our finishing didn't.

The worst part was they won it too easy. We looked better and yet it resulted in 0-3. So what conclusions can we draw? Were we unlucky? Is this something to build on? I don't know.

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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 01:20:47 pm »
Didnt see the game till later and after i had been in here and this might sound strange but i was pleasantly surprised with our play in general, for me one minute encapsulated this season, Sterling should score but doesnt and within that minute Rooney scored, such minute events set the whole framework of the game.

We score confidence is building up and who knows what follows,  they score the anxiety the players and manager must feel is greatly multiplied.

However we outplayed them and their Keeper was man of the match, so not the disaster some are clinging too, and a performance that actually gave me hope that we are getting somewhere now.

Second should never have been allowed and the third came about because of the earlier goals and low confidence.
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Offline stockdam

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 01:38:47 pm »
Not much to say. We had more chances and more shots on target. We were let down by some weak finishing and some poor defending. Overall the match was even and the score flattered them greatly. 2nd goal was a howler from the linesman.

We need to work hard on defending as a unit rather than individuals who frequently do not cover space but bunch together in zones. We need to back each other up rather than making poor decisions when we lose the ball.

Get Sturridge back, a new striker and sort out the defence please.
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Offline Cassiel

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 02:00:29 pm »
It's difficult to focus on what's happening on the pitch when it's becoming clear that off it, we're a mess. Can anyone remember a time when the club was so porous? There seems to be a leak everyday, and it's all taken the feel of a circular firing squad between Brendan and the transfer committee over our various recruits. If that is the case, the situation is untenable and something has to give. Either the structure is changed, or people have to go. I hope that someone isn't Brendan because he's a good coach, but he can't get anything right at the moment. Which brings me on to the game. Lovren is a disaster. Lovren and Skrtel is one of humanitarian proportions. Why Brendan thought it the right time to rehabilitate Lovren and return him to the team just as were achieving a semblance of defensive solidity is beyond me. Glen is shot too. And Lucas has to play, whatever you think of him. We are simply far more solid with him. It's too early to return to the buccaneering style of last year. Maybe, sadly, depressingly, we can never return to that style. We have too many players who can't seem to do the basics right anymore (and some that never could), to which we can add a goalkeeper who was sold a dummy from 20 yards out. On another day we could have scored a few. But this team, as it is now, will always concede a few. And without the pop up front, that means we're Freddie Fucked.

Still, we'll beat Bournemouth, rampage all over the Arse, and we'll all be laughing Turkey gravy in a week *drinks*.




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Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 02:05:19 pm »
I was like Donkeywan and was surprisingly confident of getting a result before the game. I don't know if it was just pre-match excitement as I was going the game or what but there was enough from the previous games for me to suggest that we could have a go at them and put them under pressure. Regardless of all the hype that has surrounded them lot over the past few weeks, I've been unimpressed with them and I honestly believed we'd create chances and score a few.

When we got the ground, we spent 40 minutes watching highlights of last season matches on the TV's in the concourse. God we were good. Anyone suggesting it was all just down to Luis then just watch our season review DVD. We were superb as a team. Everything that we're not this season.

When the team was announced, even though most already knew what is was going to be (because it was leaked the night before), there was this sinking dread feeling around. There was a few lads calling Brendan a 'fraud', suggesting he's getting found out this season and others (myself included) were backing him and the team, staying positive in the hope that it would ok and we'd shut the doubters up. Oh I wish we were proved right. Anyone calling our manager a fraud is a disgrace in my eyes. I don't care if you are a scouser and you follow the club all across the country, its fucking bang out of order and I'd expect more from a matchgoer. 

The first 15 minutes we played well, we passed better than they did, pressed them high, forced them to make mistakes and created a few chances. When Sterling was played through, there was this split second where I thought 'this is it, go on son, prove these lot wrong', only for him to hit the ball straight at De Gea. In the space of a minute, Valencia was made to look like Messi, Coutinho decided to have a kip and the ball was in the back of the net and at that point I think we knew it wasn't going to be our day.

The starting line up was a puzzler for me. Not the Mignolet swap though. I think he's deserved to be dropped and I'd be gobsmacked if he ever played for us again. What puzzled me is what Toure or Lucas had done to get dropped and what on earth Lovren and Allen or Hendo had done to deserve to start in their place? I agree with rotating and resting players when needed but we seem to just want to rotate for the sake of rotating. Why not just play the players that are in form and see where it takes us? Im sorry to say it but if Lovren never plays for us again it'll be too soon.

Despite this though, we created enough chances and played well enough to win that game. Sterling could have had a hatrick, Balotelli could have had one too & Hendo had a fantastic clear header on the 6 yard lane that he managed t put over the bar. I know De Gea has had a hell of a lot of praise from Gary Neville and critics over the past few days and he deserves it but for me it was incredibly poor finishing from us that allowed him to make a save. Sterling should be scoring one of his 2 chances in the 1st half at the near post, he should have buried that 1v1 but a bad touch took him wide, Balotelli had 3 1v1s and even the one that De Gea tipped onto the bar lacked pace and was only a yard to the side of him at the right height. It was like going back to 2012 when we were playing under Kenny. Is it luck, good goalkeeping or just plain old bad finishing? I'd argue, it was just abysmal finishing. Compare our finishing to UTD's and you can see why we lost the game. Put a 'Sturridge', 'Suarez', 'Costa', 'Sanchez' type player on the end of those chances and we would have had a field day. If you cant take your chances you wont win games, simple as that.

I've seen enough though in our play on Sunday to believe that Brendan is still the man to take us forward. In large spells we were by far the best team and we created the best chances but we didn't have anyone to put the ball in the back of the net. That's easily changed. I just hope the knee jerkers give him the time in January to get a decent striker and a GK in, get Sturridge back fit and have a push until the end of the season. Its not over yet, don't write us off. Beat Arsenal on Sunday and we are 2 points behind them. Lets hope we save our season and get a result because a loss could be unrecoverable.
 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 02:24:41 pm by Always_A_Red »
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Offline jason42

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Re: Round Table: Man Utd 3 v Liverpool 0
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2014, 10:15:44 pm »
Tonight's game kinda reminded me of the game on Sunday.....Bournemouth were playing good football and were well in the match but fail to take their chances. We score, our confidence increases and we go on to get a second and third goal while they go on having decent spells but still not taking chances.
I have continuously been saying that the levels of confidence shown last year were a result of the goals that we were scoring - from the SAS to the midfield and even the defence. Those goals have dried up this season and the confidence has evaporated.
Tonight we get 3 goals up and we look like the side of last year and the confidence will return as we score more goals more often.
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