Author Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.  (Read 34726 times)

Offline Shanks1965

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It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« on: January 14, 2009, 07:59:11 pm »
Last season we drew 7 games at home in the league, 13 in total. This season we have drawn 4 already at home and have also failed to score in 5 league games. That’s too many. Draws don’t win the league, three points does. We are top but we know that we are there (basically on the same points as we had last season) partly because United and Chelsea have not scored as many points as they normally would at this stage.

So with the best chance in years of making it 19 why are we not going for it? We finished the game on Saturday with a £20m striker on the bench. Why? Why in the last 10 minutes when we were running out of time and ideas, did Rafa not throw the dice and stick Keane on at the expense of a defender? Honestly, I don’t know but we have all heard Rafa say… “it’s important to win but more important not to lose”. Does therein lie the problem? Is it a cautiousness borne out of winning the league in Spain where more teams drew in the course of a season? If so then we have a problem because after four and a half years Rafa hasn't yet learned that to win the league in England you have to win the large majority of games. You don’t win it with draws.

We hate unfavourable comparisons with our 'friends' down the East Lancs but we all watch United attack with 7 or 8 players when they need a goal. They do it all the time and have done for years. They did it on Sunday against Chelsea, not when they needed a goal but when they were already one nil up. How many times have we seen Fergusson throw attackers on at the expense of defenders when they need a goal? At Stoke they finished the game with Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Scholes and Giggs on the pitch, all of them goal scorers. We finished the game with Gerrard and Torres as our only real goal scoring threat.

So why don’t we go for it? Is it not worth risking the one point we have to get the maximum three? Even if it goes pear shaped two out of three times (which I doubt it would) we’d still end up with the same points so what really do we have to lose? Compared to the risk of getting the extra points to win the league it’s a risk worth taking in my view. How many times do we sit watching the game thinking (or singing) … attack… attack…attack, when we need a goal?

So are we letting number 19 slip through our fingers because Rafa can’t let his team of the leash? I fear we may be. Now I love the man. I think he’s a great manager and this isn’t having a pop at him or his tactics. He's doing a good job under difficult circumstances and I'd have settled for finishing 2nd close behind the leaders at the start of the season. But now we have a REAL chance to win it. I know having watched Liverpool sides since the early seventies that you need to go for teams at times to win games and to win leagues and I just don’t see us doing that enough, unless we are losing. We’ve done it when we absolutely have to. City away, two nil down at half time. Hull at home, two nil down, Boro at home, one nil down with 10 minutes to go, Wigan at home, twice behind. Istan bleeding bul !!!!!! So why don’t we do it when we are drawing? Because it’s important to win… but more important not to lose?

I’ve been predicting since the start of the season that we would win it this time and I still believe we will but increasingly now thats down to a stubborn belief rather than a confidence that we will get more points than anyone else.

So my hope is for Rafa to realise that he has the players to take teams apart and if he would only sometimes send them out not to beat teams but to batter them I actually think we would do it. Number 19 is within our grasp, we just have to have the courage to grab hold of it and make it ours.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 08:21:39 pm by Shanks1965 »
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Offline MagicB8all

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 08:11:55 pm »
This league  supports a win and a loss (3pts)   over two draws (2pts)  -  Rafa needs to find the players that can produce wins. We may not be the team for a Ronaldo but we're a team that could use a young Trezeguet
Goodbye & thank you Rafa. You've given us more than we ever had a right to expect from you and you stayed loyal and fought for us even when some of our own turned on you. I truly hope that you find somewhere with the support that you deserve & win everything in sight.

Offline xerxes

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 08:13:50 pm »
This league  supports a win and a loss (3pts)   over two draws (2pts)  -  Rafa needs to find the players that can produce wins. We may not be the team for a Ronaldo but we're a team that could use a young Trezeguet

Unless you have a time machine, that's a really unhelpful thing to say.
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Offline Firebird

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 08:17:20 pm »
IMHO, we already have the personnel to turn more of these draws into wins. It's the way they are deployed that is preventing this from happening.

Not saying that we don't need more quality players to improve us, we do. Just that we already have enough in our locker to have achieved more.
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Offline YJT

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 08:18:55 pm »
gotta say I agree with this. I made this point in the stoke after game thread. At the moment on average we're drawing every 3rd game and failing to score in every 4th. If we carry on this form we'll finish the season with 16 draws I believe. As long as we beat the other big 3 and don't lose this might still be enough but's very disappointing that after seeing chelsea and man u losing 6 points to us and a arsenal, man u could be in front of us by our next kick off and chelsea are 3 points behind us.

I personally don't believe we'll beat all the other top 3 teams and don't think we'll lose only one game in the second half of the season which means we have to beat the teams that on paper we should be comfortably beating

Offline Number 7

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 08:19:47 pm »
0-0 Fulham (H) - Didn't play well enough to win and no urgency
0-0 West Ham (H) - Were really unlucky not to win
0-0 Stoke (H) -  Were really unlucky not to win. That early goal is allowed and its a different ball game
0-0 Aston Villa (A) - Terrible, no urgency and barely any shots on goal
0-0 Stoke (A) - Trying not to lose rather that win

To be honest one of Keane or Torres should have started against Stoke on Sat. Everyone knows it. United are winning against Wigan right now and expect them to win at Bolton. Already these draws are costing us and will continue to cost us.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 08:26:44 pm »
It's time to get rid of the caution. I'd much prefer to  finish second having gone for it, rather than just give it to the Mancs by drawing against weaker sides. Time to throw caution to the wind from now on, no more negative team selections against the Stokes of this world. Dirk is not a striker who is good enough to carry the responsibility on his own. Time to up the tempo Rafa, no more negativity, please.

Offline hassinator

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 08:28:51 pm »
really interesting post shanks but are we slightly over-reacting to a shit weekend?  if gerard hadn't hit the post sunday would have started a whole lot different for the mancs....

i know, i know - if my aunty had a dick she'd be my uncle but i think the point i'm trying to make is that if we'd gone hell for leather for the win we could have lost and maybe rafa was thinking about some proper duffings up we took from bolton in his first couple of seasons at anfield. 

yes he would have liked the three points - wouldn't we all? - but he knows its a long season and better to take the point than end up looking really stupid.

we can of course argue with a lot of truth that the mancs are better at chasing three points but they do also have better tools to go after it.  berbatov, rooney and ronaldo is quite an attacking unit and that ignores their midfield options and tevez on the bench. 

against stoke we had kuyt up front who has never sparkled as a striker for the reds and our midfield looked as disjointed as it has all season. 

the point i think i'm trying to make is i don't think i'd bet on us chasing a goal as quickly as i would man utd but that doesn't mean to say we can't win the league we just need to do it playing to our strengths getting the best out of the players we have.

Offline Degs

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 08:35:40 pm »
It benefits us when the other team scores first, we end up going on the attack and looking better.
Prime example was Hull, 2 goals down and we play great football, back to 2-2 then the system goes back to it's mechanical rigidity.

I'm a big Rafa fan, and the style he plays means we're boss in cup comps, but again I agree we have the players but the way they're deployed often boggles the mind.  Lucas and Mascherano sitting deep, Babel on the left, Benayoun/Kuyt on the right.

I hope Rafa signs his contract. We're now at the stage Valencia were in 01/02, great at apssing the ball but unable to beat small teams. It wasn't until Rafa got the right players that he felt, for want of a better word, "safe" to allow the attacking free-flowing football that won the league and the UEFA Cup.

Offline stjohn65

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 08:37:11 pm »

 Is it a cautiousness borne out of winning the league in Spain where more teams drew in the course of a season?


More teams are drawing in the prem this season as the whole league seems a bit tighter.

You point out that we're top with a similar points tally to last year's effort. This makes it sound as if we're top by default - because of the failings of the other top teams rather than our own success. That analysis is muddled - it fails to acknowledge the crucial fact that this year's points tally has been achieved partly by taking 7 points out of 9 against the other three.  So while we've all of us dropped points in an increasingly competitive league,  we have come out significantly better in the head to head encounters which previously troubled us more than somewhat.

Given this it's misplaced to label us unambitious, lacking in adventure etc etc. In crucial matches we have gone for the win, and not just against the Uniteds of this world. The turnaround against Man City is just one example this season of a gung ho approach which handsomely paid off - exactly as you suggested.

At that point of the season,when others were in form and could easily have pulled away had we slipped up it was important to win in order that the season did not slip away from us. Now the battle has settled down, and while mathematically it is clearly more advantageous to win one game than drawing two we shouldn't dismiss the psychological effect that remaining unbeaten has on a team.

Fergie's annual mind games revolve primarily around instilling fear in his challengers that they may bottle it while Utd remain strong and focussed. He plays these games for a reason - and they've been effective in the past, possibly at times even the deciding factor, who knows?

So I don't think Rafa is over cautious. At a time when all the big teams are dropping points we can look to gain ground again not too far down the line should we stumble - but only if we retain the strength and inner belief that comes from an unbeaten run.


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Offline STORMTROOPER

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 08:38:36 pm »
i agree with what you wrote shanks1965.

its pretty obvious that rafa doesn't gamble on a certain point.  the only time he is likely to throw caution to the wind is if we are behind.  his insistence on not bringing keane on in the hull and stoke matches made me pull the skin off my face.

i'm pretty sure there are more 0-0s ahead this season, yet at the same time i think we will do well against chelsea, man utd, and arsenal in the return fixtures.

what frustrates me is that i think rafa sets the team up for playing stoke in the same manor as he would for playing man utd.  i feel he needs to change is strategy/formation/selection for playing against the lower teams and be more attacking/ruthless even if it leaves us more open for the opposition to attack.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 08:40:10 pm »
really interesting post shanks but are we slightly over-reacting to a shit weekend?  if gerard hadn't hit the post sunday would have started a whole lot different for the mancs....

i know, i know - if my aunty had a dick she'd be my uncle but i think the point i'm trying to make is that if we'd gone hell for leather for the win we could have lost and maybe rafa was thinking about some proper duffings up we took from bolton in his first couple of seasons at anfield. 

yes he would have liked the three points - wouldn't we all? - but he knows its a long season and better to take the point than end up looking really stupid.

we can of course argue with a lot of truth that the mancs are better at chasing three points but they do also have better tools to go after it.  berbatov, rooney and ronaldo is quite an attacking unit and that ignores their midfield options and tevez on the bench. 

against stoke we had kuyt up front who has never sparkled as a striker for the reds and our midfield looked as disjointed as it has all season. 

the point i think i'm trying to make is i don't think i'd bet on us chasing a goal as quickly as i would man utd but that doesn't mean to say we can't win the league we just need to do it playing to our strengths getting the best out of the players we have.

We have the players to go out and attack the likes of Stoke though surely. We bought a striker for £20m, we dropped him, he came back and scored at Arsenal and then 2 against Bolton and he hasn't played since. We came up against a very mediocre side last week who can be very difficult to break down so we leave that striker on the bench and play Dirk on his own up front. Considering most of us think that Utd aren't going to drop that many points very easily from now on I think the likes of Stoke City are  the sort of teams that we should be going out to attack. Your point about better to take the point instead of looking stupid sums up Rafa's thoughts and may well be the reason why we don't win it this year. It's time to think of 3 points every  week instead of worrying about stupid we will look or worrying too much about the opposition.

Offline laddo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 08:41:25 pm »
Facts are facts, if we'd gone for broke in both Stoke (for example) games and won one and lost the other, we'd have another point now. Do that again for Fulham and Hull... West Ham and Villa... You get the picture. Draws are what will cost us the title, just as they cost us getting anywhere near last season.

Online smicer07

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 08:42:14 pm »
Facts are facts, if we'd gone for broke in both Stoke (for example) games and won one and lost the other, we'd have another point now. Do that again for Fulham and Hull... West Ham and Villa... You get the picture. Draws are what will cost us the title, just as they cost us getting anywhere near last season.

And if we went for the win in both games and lost both?

Offline redprodigal

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 08:42:19 pm »
Facts are facts, if we'd gone for broke in both Stoke (for example) games and won one and lost the other, we'd have another point now. Do that again for Fulham and Hull... West Ham and Villa... You get the picture. Draws are what will cost us the title, just as they cost us getting anywhere near last season.

Spot on mate.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 08:44:07 pm »
And if we went for the win in both games and lost both?

Don't think that way, these teams were there for the taking. Utd go into games like this with a win mentality, I bet losing doesn't even enter their heads, it should be the same with us.

Online smicer07

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 08:46:16 pm »
Don't think that way, these teams were there for the taking. Utd go into games like this with a win mentality, I bet losing doesn't even enter their heads, it should be the same with us.

It's all very well saying "if we did this... then XYZ"  but nobody knows. Rafa is the manager who has got us to the top of the league  half way through the season so he must be doing something right. Fact is, we may well have gone for it in certain games, and may now be well clear. Or we may have gone for it and may be down in 4th. Nobody can say.

Offline k4bir

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2009, 08:47:03 pm »
good post shanks been thinking the same for a while,with the lack of experience of being top we should have been playing alot more attacking and had our pointslead, and yes it is a long season and we havent really hit top gear yet in my opinion and its lord help the rest when we do find it just hope rafa has the balls to take the handbrake off.at times you can see the frustration on some of our players at having to be held back {steavy g ,carra}
as for winning it ,i hope to fuck we do ,i have just become a dad and i want my lad to fuckin see us fuck the mancs and win,and i can tell them manc bastards at work we are the best,cause them boys have been doin my head in for fuckin to long
BASTARDS [fuck this is therapeutic}

Offline Firebird

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2009, 08:48:12 pm »
And if we went for the win in both games and lost both?

I'm absolutely 100% convinced  that if we change our mentality and go for the wins, over the course of the whole season, we will have gained versus the approach we take now.

Therefore even if we lost these 2 games through taking a more attacking attitude, I am very confident we would make it up over the season, and then some.
Justice

Offline Mr_Morosoph

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2009, 08:48:41 pm »
And if we went for the win in both games and lost both?

Fuckin wet the bed
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2009, 08:49:14 pm »

Offline Fordy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2009, 08:58:47 pm »
Excellent post. Spot on as far as I am concerned.

When you draw to the likes of Stoke all it does its breed confidence to the other teams around you and puts more pressure on winning the next game.

We drew against Stoke = 1 point. Now if we draw against Everton that would be two points total.

So surely going all out for the win against Stoke would of better off and breed more confidence.

As much as I love Rafa he really has to change his ways. If he doesnt we can forget about winning this league. He needs to grow some balls and take more risks during games.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2009, 08:59:16 pm »
It's all very well saying "if we did this... then XYZ"  but nobody knows. Rafa is the manager who has got us to the top of the league  half way through the season so he must be doing something right. Fact is, we may well have gone for it in certain games, and may now be well clear. Or we may have gone for it and may be down in 4th. Nobody can say.

Fair enough but I'm one for going for the throat when you can smell the blood, especially when the prey is weak and tired. We have a great chance, let's be more positive. Be honest, if we carry on playing like we did against Stoke, Fulham etc will you be more pissed off if we don't win it than you would have been if we had lost it by being more positive. I know I would.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2009, 08:59:34 pm »
Fuckin wet the bed

You must have a problem. See a doc if I was you.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2009, 09:00:26 pm »
Fair enough but I'm one for going for the throat when you can smell the blood, especially when the prey is weak and tired. We have a great chance, let's be more positive. Be honest, if we carry on playing like we did against Stoke, Fulham etc will you be more pissed off if we don't win it than you would have been if we had lost it by being more positive. I know I would.

Depends on the game really. Villa away, 0-0 is a great result. Stoke away, maybe we could've gone for it more, I agree. But if we do go for it more, and lose, then people will moan even more...

Offline Brentieke

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2009, 09:05:52 pm »
Completely agree with that post Shanks and my biggest gripe with Rafa is his fear of losing, his reluctance to go for the win.

Alot of postors have banged on about the fact we lose very few games but for me , while nice, it ultimately means fuck all if we're drawing.

I mean look at last year's table.
 
                                        P    W D L G  A  GD   PTS
1 Manchester United  (C) 38 27 6 5 80 22 +58 87
2 Chelsea                       38 25 10 3 65 26 +39 85
3 Arsenal                        38 24 11 3 74 31 +43 83
4 Liverpool                     38 21 13 4 67 28 +39 76

Notice anything? That's right. United lost the most games out of the top 4 but yet finished top. Why? Because they won more games than every other team.

You need to go for it Rafa...Fuck being scared of what the likesStoke may do to us if you sacrifice a defender or a midfielder for a froward with 20 minutes to go. Let the fuckers worry about us.

Rafa seemed to have understod this early on in the season, but has reverted these past couple of months to his ultra cautious self. Until he evolves his mentality and learns that sometimes, in this fucken league, you have to throw caution to the wind and just go for it.

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Offline STORMTROOPER

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2009, 09:07:02 pm »
the thing is, the more we draw with these teams 0-0, the more other teams are encouraged to set up in exactly the same way against us because they know we don't solve the problem.

with man utd, teams no they can crack the parked bus at old trafford so the opposition become unsure of what exactly is the best way to set up at old trafford.

Offline Brentieke

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2009, 09:07:10 pm »
Depends on the game really. Villa away, 0-0 is a great result. Stoke away, maybe we could've gone for it more, I agree. But if we do go for it more, and lose, then people will moan even more...

O-O At Villa is a great result??? Jesus Christ now I've heard everything.

You'd think they were Brazil 1970...
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Offline YJT

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2009, 09:08:08 pm »
Depends on the game really. Villa away, 0-0 is a great result. Stoke away, maybe we could've gone for it more, I agree. But if we do go for it more, and lose, then people will moan even more...

that's true people would moan more had we lost at stoke but in hindsight people would prefere winning 4 of those drawn games and losing the other 3 which would've given us 5 points more. I guess we'll only know at the end of the season how costly those draws will be. but do you think if we carry on this form and draw 16 games 9 of which being 0-0 that we'll be top of the table by may?

Offline Brentieke

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2009, 09:08:16 pm »
Excellent post. Spot on as far as I am concerned.

When you draw to the likes of Stoke all it does its breed confidence to the other teams around you and puts more pressure on winning the next game.

We drew against Stoke = 1 point. Now if we draw against Everton that would be two points total.

So surely going all out for the win against Stoke would've better off and breed more confidence.

As much as I love Rafa he really has to change his ways. If he doesnt we can forget about winning this league. He needs to grow some balls and take more risks during games.

True that.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2009, 09:14:30 pm »
Depends on the game really. Villa away, 0-0 is a great result. Stoke away, maybe we could've gone for it more, I agree. But if we do go for it more, and lose, then people will moan even more...

Fair enough, I agree about the Villa game, but i) if we go for it and lose against the weaker teams I'll put money on it that most fans will feel better than the whimper of a performance we put out on Saturday and ii) I believe we would get more points going for the win than if we stay being negative anyway.

Offline Cruiser

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2009, 09:15:56 pm »
Facts are facts, if we'd gone for broke in both Stoke (for example) games and won one and lost the other, we'd have another point now. Do that again for Fulham and Hull... West Ham and Villa... You get the picture. Draws are what will cost us the title, just as they cost us getting anywhere near last season.

Spot on lad!

If we poured forward with venom like we did against Man City and Wigan we would almost certainly have pulled off more victories. Unfortuinately we don't always seem to display the same hunger, choosing to adopt a more cautious approach. We need to fight like a cornered tiger.
If he retires I'll eat my fucking cock.

Great anti climax for those expecting jizzihno....

Offline MagicB8all

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2009, 09:22:47 pm »


Completely agree with that post Shanks and my biggest gripe with Rafa is his fear of losing, his reluctance to go for the win.

Alot of postors have banged on about the fact we lose very few games but for me , while nice, it ultimately means fuck all if we're drawing.

I mean look at last year's table.
 
                                        P    W D L G  A  GD   PTS
1 Manchester United  (C) 38 27 6 5 80 22 +58 87
2 Chelsea                       38 25 10 3 65 26 +39 85
3 Arsenal                        38 24 11 3 74 31 +43 83
4 Liverpool                     38 21 13 4 67 28 +39 76

Notice anything? That's right. United lost the most games out of the top 4 but yet finished top. Why? Because they won more games than every other team.

You need to go for it Rafa...Fuck being scared of what the likesStoke may do to us if you sacrifice a defender or a midfielder for a froward with 20 minutes to go. Let the fuckers worry about us.

Rafa seemed to have understod this early on in the season, but has reverted these past couple of months to his ultra cautious self. Until he evolves his mentality and learns that sometimes, in this fucken league, you have to throw caution to the wind and just go for it.

This seems to back up my earlier point about playing to draw when we should be playing to win

0-0 Fulham (H) - Didn't play well enough to win and no urgency
0-0 West Ham (H) - Were really unlucky not to win
0-0 Stoke (H) -  Were really unlucky not to win. That early goal is allowed and its a different ball game
0-0 Aston Villa (A) - Terrible, no urgency and barely any shots on goal
0-0 Stoke (A) - Trying not to lose rather that win

To be honest one of Keane or Torres should have started against Stoke on Sat. Everyone knows it. United are winning against Wigan right now and expect them to win at Bolton. Already these draws are costing us and will continue to cost us.
This seems to imply we're not finished, we  still get pulled down to the level of the dogfight too often. In doing this we forget how WE need to play to win
Goodbye & thank you Rafa. You've given us more than we ever had a right to expect from you and you stayed loyal and fought for us even when some of our own turned on you. I truly hope that you find somewhere with the support that you deserve & win everything in sight.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2009, 09:29:59 pm »
Excellent post and fully justified given the brilliant work of yourself and others on the Results Comparison thread mate. The numbers are there for all to see.

I've been feeling the same way this week - I was keeping a lid on it until the Friday press conference, but I thought that was Rafa's "The Beast In Me" moment, when we'd start to see the reins loosened a little bit... only for Saturday's tepid showing to follow. Hopefully it'll prove a catalyst for a genuine juggernaut run.

I think pretty much all of us are feeling this way at the minute - some of the older heads have been saying it since the beginning of the season saying this team is good enough to win the league, and we're all beginning to see that now. I was massively keen to keep a lid on my own expectations to start with and like you say, if someone had guaranteed me 2nd this year I'd have been happy with that as a mark of progress... but for us to have a chance like this, we really need to grasp it now.

That said mate, based on your and JP's figures, we've outperformed our own track record in the first half of the season, and with a better squad we ought to outperform our run-in from previous seasons in the same way, no?

I'm still pleased with our progress and I'm hoping we can keep our perspective, but I have to say I've been frustrated with the obsessive need for control against sides we should be looking to steamroller.

Offline xavidub

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2009, 09:30:27 pm »
Completely agree with the OP
You have to try very hard to see what's going on in front of your face

Offline MagicB8all

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2009, 09:39:58 pm »
Excellent post and fully justified given the brilliant work of yourself and others on the Results Comparison thread mate. The numbers are there for all to see.

I've been feeling the same way this week - I was keeping a lid on it until the Friday press conference, but I thought that was Rafa's "The Beast In Me" moment, when we'd start to see the reins loosened a little bit... only for Saturday's tepid showing to follow. Hopefully it'll prove a catalyst for a genuine juggernaut run.

I think pretty much all of us are feeling this way at the minute - some of the older heads have been saying it since the beginning of the season saying this team is good enough to win the league, and we're all beginning to see that now. I was massively keen to keep a lid on my own expectations to start with and like you say, if someone had guaranteed me 2nd this year I'd have been happy with that as a mark of progress... but for us to have a chance like this, we really need to grasp it now.

That said mate, based on your and JP's figures, we've outperformed our own track record in the first half of the season, and with a better squad we ought to outperform our run-in from previous seasons in the same way, no?

I'm still pleased with our progress and I'm hoping we can keep our perspective, but I have to say I've been frustrated with the obsessive need for control against sides we should be looking to steamroller.
That's the next step of our development - 1 Rafa believing we can steam roller teams and 2 Our actually doing so
Goodbye & thank you Rafa. You've given us more than we ever had a right to expect from you and you stayed loyal and fought for us even when some of our own turned on you. I truly hope that you find somewhere with the support that you deserve & win everything in sight.

Offline Stussy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2009, 09:41:08 pm »


Craig Bellamy kept on the bench chasing it in Athens and Rafa brings on.......I still wake occasionally in the middle of the night thinking of it.

Anyway, it really is the most serious critique that can be made of Rafa. It feels like he's taken our pack of hunting dogs right up to the fight and then only lets one or two off the leash, even when all of them are starving and ready to kill and eat. It's like he's done everything else, he's taken us to the brink of winning the title, but he just doesn't trust the final instinct of his players there. I just don't want us to miss out on winning the title by a few points and wonder what could have been if Rafa had made us go mental, let the mad dogs off the leash in certain games.

Anyway, until then, I still have enough trust for the rest of the season. Let's watch Torres and see how we swagger now. I'm still positive about it all, we have everything to be positive about.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline redraga

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2009, 10:01:56 pm »
Agree with the OP. This season's improved position seems to be mainly due to Utd and Chelsea dropping points rather than us performing better than last season. One of the biggest improvements from last season has been our performance against the 'top 4', but we still struggle to break down defences of weaker team at Anfield.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2009, 10:05:47 pm »
totally agree, draws are what could ultimately cost us the title.

Offline rafa is the bosphorus

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2009, 10:13:21 pm »
0-0 Fulham (H) - Didn't play well enough to win and no urgency
0-0 West Ham (H) - Were really unlucky not to win
0-0 Stoke (H) -  Were really unlucky not to win. That early goal is allowed and its a different ball game
0-0 Aston Villa (A) - Terrible, no urgency and barely any shots on goal
0-0 Stoke (A) - Trying not to lose rather that win

To be honest one of Keane or Torres should have started against Stoke on Sat. Everyone knows it. United are winning against Wigan right now and expect them to win at Bolton. Already these draws are costing us and will continue to cost us.

To be honest, I think this is the heart of it. Of the five 0-0s, two were just plain unlucky. Two didn't depend on Rafa putting attacking people on, just on poor performances. Stoke (A) was horrible, I am a huge fan of Rafa, but I think he made a bad mistake there. Whether this is a trend, nobody can say. Yet