Author Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.  (Read 34338 times)

Offline LF

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #320 on: January 17, 2009, 08:15:00 pm »
The point is, that you take all these games like West Ham, the 2 Stoke games etc that we drew, and take the risk. We've got bags of talent- yeah you might expect to lose a couple more, but you'd still win. You'd obviously take 1 win and 1 loss rather than 2 draws.

That's what I said. :D

Offline Fruity

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #321 on: January 17, 2009, 08:30:13 pm »
the thing is at the beginning of this season i would have said just to have us challenging would be a huge improvement. The problem now is that up until tonight we have been leading. There is a feeling that we could do it. I dont think most fans were prepared for this and even know how to handle it.

If I am honest the reason why united are make capable of nicking the 1-0 in tough games is because they just have more quality in those positions. We have Gerrard and Torres who are our match winners. They have berbetov, ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney, giggs, and scholes all capable of nicking it.

Keane could prove himself invaluable and so could babel. Both I believe are capable of winning games for us. Riera needs to start moving up a peg or two as well.

We always hope gerrard or Torres will turn it around but as someone else mentioned above others have to as well.

I think in those tough games of defenders sitting back is generally where that extra bit of creative ability shows through. Still not sure we fully have it that in our team and its still the area thats proving to be a big point loss for us.

All said and done though we are still very much in the race

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Offline MagicB8all

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #322 on: January 17, 2009, 08:41:31 pm »
the thing is at the beginning of this season i would have said just to have us challenging would be a huge improvement. The problem now is that up until tonight we have been leading. There is a feeling that we could do it. I dont think most fans were prepared for this and even know how to handle it.

If I am honest the reason why united are make capable of nicking the 1-0 in tough games is because they just have more quality in those positions. We have Gerrard and Torres who are our match winners. They have berbetov, ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney, giggs, and scholes all capable of nicking it.

Keane could prove himself invaluable and so could babel. Both I believe are capable of winning games for us. Riera needs to start moving up a peg or two as well.

We always hope gerrard or Torres will turn it around but as someone else mentioned above others have to as well.

I think in those tough games of defenders sitting back is generally where that extra bit of creative ability shows through. Still not sure we fully have it that in our team and its still the area thats proving to be a big point loss for us.

All said and done though we are still very much in the race


I tend to agree with most of this, in particular the bit in bold

we're gonna need a few players to step up to the plate  Reira, Keane, Babel and Kuyt have to do that - If we're within spitting distance in the last 5 games watch Rafa let them off the leash, until then Rafa's about giving us a chance to win it, so he'll play it tight
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Offline TSC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #323 on: January 17, 2009, 09:16:55 pm »
Obviously at the start of the season if you'd offered a home derby win to go top in Jan all would've grabbed that.

I think the frustration and the general negativity stems from the fact that deep down everyone knows UTD should be trying to close a big gap on us.  Don't underestimate the psychological aspect of chasing a team that's away on the horizon points wise.

Having said that on 28Dec we were 10 points ahead of them, and turning that around inside a month to a one point lead takes some doing.

In reality UTD should have came back from Japan needing to win their games in hand just to get to within about 6points of us.  In this scenario I doubt they'd have won as many as they have since returning.

Similarly if we'd recently closed a similar gap to get to our current position we'd all be doing cartwheels & would feel the momentum was with us.

I've always thought they'd win there games in hand at a canter - Utd always kick on (just like we did in the 80's) post Xmas - this is how they've so many titles.  They're a juggernaught really, and in that respect we're feeling how their fans felt in the 80's when Liverpool kicked on and invariable overtook them and won the title.  Roles are completely reversed.

Ultimately our crap draws caught up with us in the end.

In a way I'm glad it's happened.  It's over with - they've caught us.  Now we need to answer the challenge.  I'm hoping this may result in us going for it, as 'good draws' will prob not suffice.

By the way it's so tight at the top we need to realise this could either be ecstacy or a disaster.  We're only 2 ahead of Villa and 5 ahead of Arsenal.  So as well as the possibility of winning the league there's a possibibility of finishing fifth.  Everything to fight for.

Offline Southderryred

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #324 on: January 17, 2009, 09:17:14 pm »
we have the same points that we had this time last year. so havnt made any progress then. the woorying thing is we never took advantage when scum and chelsea were dropping points

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #325 on: January 17, 2009, 10:38:35 pm »
I don't believe the crowd got to them. Players on that pitch have played in some truly mentally challenging games- way heavier than a bunch of Arsenal fans giving it the big "HOOOOFFF".

Our football was a bit too conservative, and it is conservative a lot- it comes to your point about these runs in the final third. Thing is, I don't think the players have the freedom to always make them, and by that I mean by Rafa's instruction. Torres and Gerrard are probably the only 2 players who are allowed to play on their instinct in our attack. The others will have to think about other aspects of the game- and I think it bogs them down and places certain shackles on our attack.

Maybe you think this because they are by far and away our most talented footballers. The likes of Kuyt, Rieira, Yossi, Babel pale into insignificance compared to those two. Gerrard and Torres are the absolute cream of the crop on a local, national and worldwide scale. I don't buy into the argument that the others aren't given the same amount of freedom or can't act on their own instinct. Fact is their instinct and ability on the ball just isn't anywhere near the same level. Personally I still think our squad needs a fair bit of work and I include the first team in that. We can play with the same "Rafa mentality" but with better players or more consistency in certain positions (Right wing, left back, Torres' strike partner on occasions)  and we'll convert those 0-0s into slight wins.

Also, I wouldnt say just  because weve played at the likes of camp nou and san siro that the crowd can't have an effect either. I think the whole situation and trying to salvage a win got to our players and we didn't really know how to play. A similar thing happened at stoke after playing really really well for 20 minutes. They got a throw, a bit of momentum and we seemed to panic and stop playing.
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Offline BazC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #326 on: January 17, 2009, 11:00:49 pm »
Maybe you think this because they are by far and away our most talented footballers. The likes of Kuyt, Rieira, Yossi, Babel pale into insignificance compared to those two. Gerrard and Torres are the absolute cream of the crop on a local, national and worldwide scale. I don't buy into the argument that the others aren't given the same amount of freedom or can't act on their own instinct. Fact is their instinct and ability on the ball just isn't anywhere near the same level. Personally I still think our squad needs a fair bit of work and I include the first team in that. We can play with the same "Rafa mentality" but with better players or more consistency in certain positions (Right wing, left back, Torres' strike partner on occasions)  and we'll convert those 0-0s into slight wins.


Of course they are- but I still think that playing a freer type of attacking football would allow the more average players in our squad to shine. I've expressed my views on this already- can't really be arsed to sit here for 10-15 mins to retype them, but I do think some of our players would lend themselves to that less constrained attacking football, and as a result, they'd flourish.

Indeed, we could have Rafa buy Messi for the right and Ronaldo for the left to support Gerrard and Torres in the centre- he'd trust that quartet of class to impose a freedom in attack no problem. Extreme example... but not going to happen. But I do believe that all this money we've seen spent on the wide attacking areas, on average players/players with potential, only to move them on/see them fail in our team (I could real a list of names off here- pretty much every attacking player Rafa's brought apart from Torres looked good enough for a title challenge... I can't think of any others- perhaps Garcia and Morientes but after that I'm struggling). I do think these players would have developed into better ones if they'd been given more of that freedom to express their talent. By giving Gerrard and Torres a better focus for their football, he's turned them into world beaters. Why he hasn't given Babel (or others before him) more of that I don't know. Sure, there would have been mistakes whilst they grew up into better footballers... but it's what you need to provide for these younger players with potential. The likes of Ronaldo (remember 5 years ago when his end product was non existent?) Messi, Henry, Fowler, Gerrard, Owen et al didn't reach world class status by spending their time on the bench because they couldn't carry out the more tactical side of things- they were given freer reign and they flourished.

I do think attacking players need to be able to express their talent and play on instinct rather than having to think about the defensive aspects of why they should/should not make the run/pass/dribble etc.

The only other option if to buy in world class talent. Which is great, if we had the money. But then we did spend £20m on a striker when an attacking midfielder would have been the better bet. I still wonder if we'd have been able to get a Maxi Rodriguez, Silva or whatever instead of Keane. Younger, better players who'd have addressed the problems with R/LM directly. Ah well.
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Offline T-Bone

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #327 on: January 17, 2009, 11:25:29 pm »
I don't buy this 'Rafa is too cautious' argument. If anything, it's a very simplified argument.

I see a lot of people talking about how the mancs gave their all in an attempt to get the decisive goal. The whole thing is pretty exaggerated if you ask me. Yes, they sent people forward but so have we done in similar circumstances. They changed things around and brought on Giggs and Scholes for Anderson (who was pure shit) and Fletcher (who really didn't do anything). It's not like they took off a couple of defenders in favour of some strikers. In other words, on the substitutions side of it all - they didn't do anything we haven't done or wouldn't have done.

Their main advantage in such situations - and they've almost always been very good at this - is the fact that people don't get the willies if the clock says 80 minutes of game time. We had the same thing earlier this season. Even though we were losing, we all knew a goal was coming. We had confidence. We had belief. Of course skill plays a huge part, but neither Tevez are Berbatov are better in front of goal than our main goal threats. However, we seem to have lost some of this confidence and now everybody's shitting themselves unless we get an early goal. I don't know if there's an easy fix to all of this, but let's not rewrite history here.

Offline Guz-kop

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #328 on: January 17, 2009, 11:30:22 pm »
Quote
Messi, Henry, Fowler, Gerrard, Owen et al didn't reach world class status by spending their time on the bench because they couldn't carry out the more tactical side of things- they were given freer reign and they flourished

They are/were WORLD CLASS though. Babel is the only one with potential and I think his case is a bit more complicated but the others we've bought really haven't even come close. Comparisons with Ronaldo and these sorts of players make no sense because they don't just grow into them. Ronaldo's final ball may have been poor but he had a spark about him, he still frightened the fuck out of defenders and as we saw in 2004 at Old trafford could still tear teams a new arsehole. We're never going to have 11 players the calibre of Gerrard or Torres but in terms of attacking penetration (oo er) and consistency I don't think anyone we've bought in an attacking position (upfront or wide) has shown anything even close to that of those two (of course we bought Torres). My point is that maybe we should be looking at some of the signings we have made and the squad that has been built more than the way we are setting up to win games. That's not to say we've bought shit over 5 years or that there haven't been constraints - not saying that at all - just that I think some of us overrate the squad.
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #329 on: January 17, 2009, 11:37:53 pm »
Obviously at the start of the season if you'd offered a home derby win to go top in Jan all would've grabbed that.

I think the frustration and the general negativity stems from the fact that deep down everyone knows UTD should be trying to close a big gap on us.  Don't underestimate the psychological aspect of chasing a team that's away on the horizon points wise.

Having said that on 28Dec we were 10 points ahead of them, and turning that around inside a month to a one point lead takes some doing.

In reality UTD should have came back from Japan needing to win their games in hand just to get to within about 6points of us.  In this scenario I doubt they'd have won as many as they have since returning.

Similarly if we'd recently closed a similar gap to get to our current position we'd all be doing cartwheels & would feel the momentum was with us.

I've always thought they'd win there games in hand at a canter - Utd always kick on (just like we did in the 80's) post Xmas - this is how they've so many titles.  They're a juggernaught really, and in that respect we're feeling how their fans felt in the 80's when Liverpool kicked on and invariable overtook them and won the title.  Roles are completely reversed.

Ultimately our crap draws caught up with us in the end.

In a way I'm glad it's happened.  It's over with - they've caught us.  Now we need to answer the challenge.  I'm hoping this may result in us going for it, as 'good draws' will prob not suffice.

By the way it's so tight at the top we need to realise this could either be ecstacy or a disaster.  We're only 2 ahead of Villa and 5 ahead of Arsenal.  So as well as the possibility of winning the league there's a possibibility of finishing fifth.  Everything to fight for.

Agree with that but most of all the last part.

This is a hell of a season. We're either up for it or we may crumble.

And that's why I think threads liek these have been created. Becuase most people wihout rose tinted glasses can see full well that the one major flaw in our game which has cost us a number of points these last couple of years is the sheer number of draws we have. And thats a direct result of the manager's fear of losing and cautious outlook.
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Offline JP-65

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #330 on: January 17, 2009, 11:38:17 pm »
we have the same points that we had this time last year. so havnt made any progress then. the woorying thing is we never took advantage when scum and chelsea were dropping points

We are 7 points ahead of last season WTF?

Offline TSC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #331 on: January 17, 2009, 11:40:58 pm »
They are/were WORLD CLASS though. Babel is the only one with potential and I think his case is a bit more complicated but the others we've bought really haven't even come close. Comparisons with Ronaldo and these sorts of players make no sense because they don't just grow into them. Ronaldo's final ball may have been poor but he had a spark about him, he still frightened the fuck out of defenders and as we saw in 2004 at Old trafford could still tear teams a new arsehole. We're never going to have 11 players the calibre of Gerrard or Torres but in terms of attacking penetration (oo er) and consistency I don't think anyone we've bought in an attacking position (upfront or wide) has shown anything even close to that of those two (of course we bought Torres). My point is that maybe we should be looking at some of the signings we have made and the squad that has been built more than the way we are setting up to win games. That's not to say we've bought shit over 5 years or that there haven't been constraints - not saying that at all - just that I think some of us overrate the squad.

Totally agree

I don't buy this 'Rafa is too cautious' argument. If anything, it's a very simplified argument.

I see a lot of people talking about how the mancs gave their all in an attempt to get the decisive goal. The whole thing is pretty exaggerated if you ask me. Yes, they sent people forward but so have we done in similar circumstances.



It happens too often to be simply down to the rub of the green.  Not just this season, but every season.  You get what you toil for.  And in general if you go for a win often enough & play this way until the 90th min (and then some) you'll get it, assuming the players are good enough.

This is what separates champions to pretenders.

Offline TSC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #332 on: January 17, 2009, 11:45:53 pm »
We are 7 points ahead of last season WTF?

Well I can't be bothered to do an internet search but during the Stoke game the commentator stated that Liverpool had the same amount of points as they did the season previous at that stage.  However UTD and Chelsea were below their usual totals.

Offline T-Bone

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #333 on: January 17, 2009, 11:46:48 pm »
Well I can't be bothered to do an internet search but during the Stoke game the commentator stated that Liverpool had the same amount of points as they did the season previous at that stage.  However UTD and Chelsea were below their usual totals.
Was that the same guy who claimed that Alonso hadn't featured a lot this season?

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #334 on: January 17, 2009, 11:47:38 pm »
Deffo important not to lose.

But as pointed out earlier. better to win one and lose 1 by taking a risk, than getting 2 draws
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Offline TSC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #335 on: January 17, 2009, 11:52:46 pm »
Was that the same guy who claimed that Alonso hadn't featured a lot this season?


Dunno mate, but commentators are usually meticulous in prep.  doubt he'd have made that fact up.

Can anyone do a comparison over points now and last yr after 21 games?

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #336 on: January 17, 2009, 11:56:04 pm »
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226100.0

Results comparison.

It shows we had 39 pts from 21 games last season.

Most commentators talk shite. Check them out.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 11:59:01 pm by redtel »
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #337 on: January 17, 2009, 11:59:11 pm »
Obviously the thread title is bollocks as the poster semingly does not know the points award for a win and a draw.

But, this will be a tight run in, the likes of Villa and the Kirby Men will take points off the top clubs, and with 9 clubs within three points of each other at the bottom, there will be few "soft" run in games.

I agree that we lack a "Ronaldo", but if we just hang on in there till the last three or four games, we have a very good chance.
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Offline BazC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #338 on: January 18, 2009, 12:04:20 am »
They are/were WORLD CLASS though.

Sorry, I stopped reading there as I don't think you understood my point. They weren't always world class- they developed into world class players. Rafa obviously thinks Babel can be world class- he spent £10m on him which is a lot for a player of his age/experience. Babel (and the others before him) won't/didn't develop into world class players by having all these defensively minded duties when they're young confident attacking players. Babel came here with confidence, and it's all been sucked out of him. In order for him, and any other such player for any other team, to develop their talent to a top level of football, they need to be developed in the right manner. I think Rafa's had massive success developing midfielders and defenders (Agger, Skrtel, Alonso, Carra, Arbeloa, Reina, Sissoko, Mascherano, Gerrard (his more defensive side)...) but not so much with attacking players. And I think the reason for that (as I've said in another thread- possibly the Level 3 one) is because he places too much tactical burden on them too early.

Surely it can't be a coincidence that most of the smaller buys (£10m and below) we've made have only come to fruition in the defensive/midfield areas- areas in which these players are taught tactical football (positional play, discipline, understanding etc) from an early age, and as such, areas in which the players have the understanding to take on board Rafa's micromanaging and tactical prowess. The less experienced players in the more attacking roles have shown promise, been brought in, but then just not lived upto their hype.

Contrast that to the less experienced Ronaldo, Henry, Messi, etc. The roles they had in their teams were freer in attack- they had more freedom to express their talent, and as such they (and others like them) turned into top footballers. I don't know if Rafa's demands of a player lends itself well to developing the attacking talent. I don't think it does, and haven't really seen anything to say otherwise.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #339 on: January 18, 2009, 12:05:17 am »
If we don't lose the next 17 games we will be guaranteed 63 points... It won't be enough.
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Offline TSC

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #340 on: January 18, 2009, 12:10:46 am »
If we don't lose the next 17 games we will be guaranteed 63 points... It won't be enough.

Basically we have to go for it.  If we lose out then at least we lose out to a better team, and will have no regrets.  At least going for it should guarantee CL qualification.  Make no mistake about it, Villa and Arsenal are up our jaxi.

A lot on here slate O'Neil for the way he 'didn't fold' to our cheapskate approach to Barry last Summer.  But he's always succeeded managerial wise wherever he's been.  Don't underestimate Villa and Arsenal.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #341 on: January 18, 2009, 12:25:55 am »
If we don't lose the next 17 games we will be guaranteed 63 points... It won't be enough.
Basically we have to go for it.  If we lose out then at least we lose out to a better team, and will have no regrets.  At least going for it should guarantee CL qualification.  Make no mistake about it, Villa and Arsenal are up our jaxi.

A lot on here slate O'Neil for the way he 'didn't fold' to our cheapskate approach to Barry last Summer.  But he's always succeeded managerial wise wherever he's been.  Don't underestimate Villa and Arsenal.
Is true and true. We have to start winning (not drawing) games and to do that we have to change something; and don't ignore Villa. After a dodgy start, they have got momentum, just check out the Results thread for the evidence of that.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #342 on: January 18, 2009, 02:52:35 am »
Well I can't be bothered to do an internet search but during the Stoke game the commentator stated that Liverpool had the same amount of points as they did the season previous at that stage.  However UTD and Chelsea were below their usual totals.

the commentator was wrong

Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #343 on: January 18, 2009, 08:17:40 am »
Obviously the thread title is bollocks as the poster semingly does not know the points award for a win and a draw.

But, this will be a tight run in, the likes of Villa and the Kirby Men will take points off the top clubs, and with 9 clubs within three points of each other at the bottom, there will be few "soft" run in games.
I agree that we lack a "Ronaldo", but if we just hang on in there till the last three or four games, we have a very good chance.
Care to tell us which of our remaining fixtures are the "soft" game? Only we seem to struggle a bit against the 'soft' teams who put men behind the ball which is at the crux of the matter.

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Offline keyo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #344 on: January 18, 2009, 11:06:26 pm »
Care to tell us which of our remaining fixtures are the "soft" game? Only we seem to struggle a bit against the 'soft' teams who put men behind the ball which is at the crux of the matter.


yep, chelsea and the mancs completely rolled over stoke and bolton at the weekend didn't they?

and before we get into the "well, at least they were able to nick one at the end" argument, remember we hit the post twice in the last 10 mins against stoke, including in injury time......but for 6 inches we would have got last week exactly what the mancs and chelsea got this week - a last gasp win against a team that should be easily beaten according to the pundits

look at the records for this season, we are 1 point off the top (the fabled unbeatable, attacking force of salford) having scored 1 goal more and conceded 3 goals more.....hardly a gulf that suggests we have been poor or that they are doing anything significantly better than we are, well, significant enough to rule us out of contention.
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Offline AlanK

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #345 on: January 18, 2009, 11:26:15 pm »
Sometimes it is extremely important not to lose. Our last game against Stoke was a case in point. Before the game, we all would have agreed a win was on but after it, in all honesty, we had played poorly but got a draw. We earned that draw the hard was. There have been plenty of times this year when we've turned draws into wins,( and don't forget, we came within 1 inch of doing that against Stoke,) and hopefully there'll be more.
But, having gone through the game, that was a point gained against Stoke,as Carra pointed out

Offline Fordy

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #346 on: January 18, 2009, 11:30:28 pm »
Sometimes it is extremely important not to lose. Our last game against Stoke was a case in point. Before the game, we all would have agreed a win was on but after it, in all honesty, we had played poorly but got a draw. We earned that draw the hard was. There have been plenty of times this year when we've turned draws into wins,( and don't forget, we came within 1 inch of doing that against Stoke,) and hopefully there'll be more.
But, having gone through the game, that was a point gained against Stoke,as Carra pointed out

Well thinking like that wont win us the league.

We should of beaten Stoke. No if's no buts. It was 2 points lost period.

Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #347 on: January 18, 2009, 11:36:13 pm »
yep, chelsea and the mancs completely rolled over stoke and bolton at the weekend didn't they?

and before we get into the "well, at least they were able to nick one at the end" argument, remember we hit the post twice in the last 10 mins against stoke, including in injury time......but for 6 inches we would have got last week exactly what the mancs and chelsea got this week - a last gasp win against a team that should be easily beaten according to the pundits

look at the records for this season, we are 1 point off the top (the fabled unbeatable, attacking force of salford) having scored 1 goal more and conceded 3 goals more.....hardly a gulf that suggests we have been poor or that they are doing anything significantly better than we are, well, significant enough to rule us out of contention.

Who cares what the other teams do?

The most important thing is your own team and what they do on the field. We did Not get the points from the softer teams while these teams were droppin them-fact.
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Offline AlanK

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #348 on: January 19, 2009, 12:20:54 am »
Well thinking like that wont win us the league.

We should of beaten Stoke. No if's no buts. It was 2 points lost period.

Thinking like what? The team wanted to win the game, rafa wanted to win the game. Rafa tried to win the game in the way he felt was best and came damn close to doing it.

The fact is regardless of what we want there is actually a game to be played and another team to be beaten who aren't going to just let us show up and let us claim the 3 points like we should.
We didn't play well enough to beat them and in the end it was actually a point gained. It's not like we battered them solid for 90 mins. We didn't, so sometimes you have to
take a point even if it's not what you feel we should get before a ball is even kicked.

Offline slickman

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #349 on: January 19, 2009, 12:22:26 am »
I guess we could take a few more risks even if we had won 3 of the 7 games we drew and lost the 4 others we would have had more points, but thats hindsight , we don't go out and draw games however their were certain games such as villa away where they were up for it and out to beat us after all the barry stuff we did a good job of nulifying them and got the point which was a good result. Its the first time we are challenging regardless of whether we win it or not, its not going to be plain sailing not everythings is going to be perfect we just have to keep winning to follow up a dissapointing result

Offline keyo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #350 on: January 19, 2009, 06:13:11 am »
Who cares what the other teams do?

The most important thing is your own team and what they do on the field. We did Not get the points from the softer teams while these teams were droppin them-fact.

by what standards do you judge then?  most of the comments on here are relative (ie the mancs are not dropping stupid points, etc.)

of course it matters what everyone else does, it's a competition not a parade.....the intention is to win every game, and as much as we should have beaten stoke twice this season, we didn't and yet we are still in contention.....our season will be judged on our position and points total at the end of the season, not on 2 games.....those games will merely be contributors....same as united's win over bolton will be, same as chelsea's win over stoke will be, same as chelsea's and united's draws at home to newcastle and away to everton will be

performance is measured in relative terms, and if we finish above all those teams it will have been a successful season, regardless of what happened in individual games 

and if we never capitalised on united and chelsea dropping points, then clearly they have doen the same as united are only 1 ahead and chelsea 1 behind, what were they doing when we were dropping these points to "soft teams".....take out our wins over chelsea and united, and united are 4 better off than us, chelsea 2 ahead, having played a game more.......like i said it is all relative
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #351 on: January 20, 2009, 07:18:50 pm »
Another example of the cautious side of his personality last night. As soon as we went a goal up we tried to sit on the lead, passed it back and showed no inclination what so ever to try to score a second goal and what happened? We got mugged AGAIN. Will Rafa never learn?
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Online zamagiure

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #352 on: January 20, 2009, 07:22:42 pm »
We went to bits after we scored, no passing and just humping the ball.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #353 on: January 20, 2009, 07:23:40 pm »
he did learn at the start of the season when we were winning im sure he was putting the likes of Babel to keep the ball in the opposition half but he slowly went to his comfort zone
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #354 on: January 20, 2009, 07:26:12 pm »
Another example of the cautious side of his personality last night. As soon as we went a goal up we tried to sit on the lead, passed it back and showed no inclination what so ever to try to score a second goal and what happened? We got mugged AGAIN. Will Rafa never learn?

I hope so mate. But it's a big weakness of his. As soon as we scored the puff went out of Everton. They suddenly looked very tired and vulnerable to the KO blow. I don't think they could believe their luck when we didn't even try to land it. And then their confidence came flooding back. Meanwhile billions of Liverpool supporters across the world were yelling out for Babel.  They were right.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #355 on: January 20, 2009, 07:29:02 pm »
I always believe that if you are good enough to be 1-0 up then you should be good enough to go 2-0 up.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #356 on: January 20, 2009, 07:43:48 pm »
I always believe that if you are good enough to be 1-0 up then you should be good enough to go 2-0 up.

I do except when teams go 1-0 up against Liverpool.
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Offline Degs

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #357 on: January 21, 2009, 12:55:31 am »
Just posted this in another thread and it seems more at home here

Our problems go deeper than a switch round of players but Insua is the kind of player, like Agger, who can help us when we're not winning and are seemingly happy to sit back on the draw.

This has been brewing in me for a while now and rather than start a new thread I'll post it here, since we're talking about missing links (not phil neville). I've made sure to take the time to watch how we play, stretching to the arse end of last season.

You can't put our problems down to one position or one player you have to look at the team as an entity.
Yes we do have a problem, now we'll get the "We're in 2nd, we're challenging for the title" brigade in their legions saying we don't have a problem, but anybody who watches us on a regular basis can see we're struggling, and we have done for a long time (not just this season) in a certain type of match.

It'd be counter productive and not in the Liverpool way at all not to look for ways our team could improve and could be playing better, if you don't then the title passes you by while other teams improve and address their problems. Seemingly a load of our fans have been blinded by the light when looking up from the top of the mountain, unaware we're perilously close to the cliff ledge.

Anyway cracking on (I hate long posts and hardly ever read them) the lad has raised a good point, and it's why are we better with the likes of Insua in the team, and I'll add to this (as will the stats, only one 0-0 between both players) Agger.

The answer is freedom.

I'm not on about total football here, where everybody has every position but a move away from the mechanical and drilled team we've seen under Rafa.  The higher we climb the more rigid we become. I firmly believe this is a direct cause of the system Rafa employs.
Now you'll get both groups wading in both wanting to crucify or coronate Rafa, when the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.  He's a great manager but he's not perfect, he's no Barack Obama, and results over the last 2 seasons, and even from his time in Spain have shown he has a weakness.

The weakness is well known.  Breaking down teams, especially teams with massive numbers behind the ball. I think there is a solution though.

Our problem comes from players being tethered to a spot on the pitch and given a radius of around 6 foot to do their work.  Those who do express creative freedom are either one of the 2 per match allowed to (Torres, Gerrard) or will find their arse with splinters the next (Agger).

Shankly said it best:
"Football is a simple game complicated by idiots"
That man knew his stuff and although you could never call Rafa and idiot, far from it, he does tend to overcomplicate the matter. 

We were revolutionised under a simply philosophy, "Pass and Move".
Pass and move died years ago, from the anti-football of Souness, to the dribble whenever you can Spice Boys, to the counter attacking of Houllier, and now to the military regiment that is Rafa's XI.

I'm not saying we destroy what Rafa has created but the more Rafa is here the more constricted our players become. If Rafa is still here in 5 years time I wouldn't be surprised to see eleven robots on the pitch.

Some people argue it won't work in modern football and to that I say bollocks. 
As much as we hate them the Mancs were so successful last year because of their freedom in front of the middle 2.

The quartet of Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo were all allowed to drift in and out of each others positions, never becoming stuck against one defender and constantly probing the opposition's back line.
Their problem this year has come from having a player that can only play in one position, Berbatov is too slow to not play anywhere other than in the middle of the park up the top.
It badly set back their team and gave defences a much easier time, they knew what was coming and where it was coming from, there was no interchange and no freedom and they suffered from alot of the problems we do now.

Again this season the team leading the way is Barcelona.
They have a selection of Busquets/Toure and even at times Keita defending anything coming through the middle while in front of them Messi, Henry, and Eto'o are allowed to roam free while Xavi pulls the strings and keeps it all together (Iniesta can also fill in this role).

It's meant they're the quickest to ever reach 50 points in Spain (alright they have class players) but they've done it scoring 85 goals in all competitions this season and only conceding 13 in the league.

Watch how many people end up in the box off any attack, they are safe in the knowledge that should they lose the ball it will be recovered.

Edit: And before you watch it try to count along with how many players are in the box supporting attacks, and ask when the ball is played out from the back could Xabi, Agger, Insua do this? Course they could.

1st half highlights
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ThXFFl6MC_4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ThXFFl6MC_4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

2nd half highlights
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FERR9PmnRKs&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FERR9PmnRKs&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

I'm not saying we need to be Barcelona but we have the players that would allow the team the creative freedom we so desperately need.
Agger brings out it exceptionally well from the back linking the defence to the midfield, Alonso is great in the tackle but can spray the ball, doing a Xavi style job orchestrating what is in front of him, we have Mascherano who has had fuck all to do this season because of our sit back attitude, and we have Torres, Gerrard, and Keane who can all score goals.

It was worst exemplified at Stoke. We're 0-0 and playing passes to the back, long balls up front, and our front men aren't moving laterally at all because they're told they must be tracking back and helping the fella behind them.

We don't just have zonal marking on corners we have it in open play, you can tell they each have their own segment to mark and they're scared to abandon it.
No freedom at all.

What we need is an attitude change.
Our team go out with the primary goal of not losing, that much is clear, that's how they're set out, that's how they play, if a win comes it's in spite of our style.  A goal from Torres, a goal from Stevie.

I'll ask you this, on Sunday count how many players are in the box when our attack finishes, I can tell you now it's 2 at most.
It also seems pretty obvious Mascherano will play, I'll ask you to do this, keep an eye on him and what he has to do.  His best asset is his tenacity, to chase players all over the pitch and reclaim the ball.  If we again play with 2 holding players we'll see Mascherano once more looking around at other people doing the work he's there to do rather than doing what they should be doing (Kuyt).

Bring back pass and move, give the lads in the final third some freedom, and go out to win the match.


Offline jckliew

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #358 on: January 21, 2009, 01:08:40 am »
Quote
Shankly said it best:
"Football is a simple game complicated by idiots"
That man knew his stuff and although you could never call Rafa and idiot, far from it, he does tend to overcomplicate the matter


 ???

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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #359 on: January 28, 2009, 11:45:19 pm »
Draws will be the death of us and the death nail of Rafa. If we don't learn that we have to score the 2nd goal then nights like this will happen again, again and again.
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