Author Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?  (Read 265176 times)

Offline AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #720 on: January 6, 2011, 03:49:28 pm »
What a silly post. Gerrard won those trophies on his own did he? ::) The stupidity our fans show sometimes is appalling

Don't be thick.

I am saying that he is the special player that took us to another level - and helped win those trophies.

Take him out the side and we wouldn't have even got to Istanbul, let alone won it.

He scored one there and two against West Ham in Rafa's two cup triumphs. And there's always the goal against Olympiakos.

He is a leader by example and he inspires. Whatever happens off the field he has been one of the best players this club has ever had and it's moronic to slate the guy.

I think Lucas has improved, not that he could have got much worse, and his attitude is very good - but I am not going to get carried away like many others and claim that he's the bollocks - because he really is not.
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #721 on: January 6, 2011, 03:55:36 pm »
Yorky's finger on the pulse.

He's our most composed player on the pitch.  Best vision, best on the ball, best passer, great tackler, rough as fuck but with a schoolboy's smile, good header.   Has clearly learned from Xabi, Mash & Gerrard.  When he starts getting instructions to go forward...........
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #722 on: January 6, 2011, 04:00:59 pm »
Don't be thick.

I am saying that he is the special player that took us to another level - and helped win those trophies.

Take him out the side and we wouldn't have even got to Istanbul, let alone won it.

He scored one there and two against West Ham in Rafa's two cup triumphs. And there's always the goal against Olympiakos.

He is a leader by example and he inspires. Whatever happens off the field he has been one of the best players this club has ever had and it's moronic to slate the guy.

I think Lucas has improved, not that he could have got much worse, and his attitude is very good - but I am not going to get carried away like many others and claim that he's the bollocks - because he really is not.

I hate to have to tell you this but when you take Gerrard out of the team you are allowed to replace him with another player. That player may not have the same qualities as Gerrard but he may still effect a game.

Look at Newcastle their main player Andy Carrol was absent the man who came into replace him scored a hat trick. Probably the toughest game in the run to Istanbul was away to Juventus, we went their with no Gerrard and defending a 2-1 lead and came away with the result.

In the game that got us to Istanbul the 2nd leg of the Semi final against Chelsea we were without Alonso an equally influential player but we still prevailed.

In the European Super Cup final against Spartak Moscow we were without Gerrard went a goal down and still prevailed.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #723 on: January 6, 2011, 04:03:53 pm »
I hate to have to tell you this but when you take Gerrard out of the team you are allowed to replace him with another player. That player may not have the same qualities as Gerrard but he may still effect a game.

Look at Newcastle their main player Andy Carrol was absent the man who came into replace him scored a hat trick. Probably the toughest game in the run to Istanbul was away to Juventus, we went their with no Gerrard and defending a 2-1 lead and came away with the result.

In the game that got us to Istanbul the 2nd leg of the Semi final against Chelsea we were without Alonso an equally influential player but we still prevailed.

In the European Super Cup final against Spartak Moscow we were without Gerrard went a goal down and still prevailed.

Football is a team game, the team wins competitions not an individual.

Agree but I think what that user is telling is about how people neglect Gerrard importance which I also believe is true at times.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #724 on: January 6, 2011, 04:05:00 pm »
I'm sure you know full well that I was talking about Rafa's two trophies with us and nothing else.

I like Rafa and would have preferred he weren't booted...but didn't he do well with the treble winning Inter side he inherited.
Except of course that team was mostly injured. The team he actually 'inherited', as it turns out, bore very little resemblance to the actual team that won the treble. But never mind, I don't suppose you noticed the injuries we had last season, so I guess it would be way to much to expect you to notice them all the way over in Italy.
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #725 on: January 6, 2011, 04:05:22 pm »
In the European Super Cup final against Spartak Moscow we were without Gerrard went a goal down and still prevailed.

Football is a team game, the team wins competitions not an individual.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #726 on: January 6, 2011, 04:06:32 pm »
 
I hate to have to tell you this but when you take Gerrard out of the team you are allowed to replace him with another player.

I can't wait till he loses half a step and someone finally puts him at right back, which was Kenny's opinion as to his best position.  Interchanging at right mid with GJ would be awesome for us and England. (fuck 'em btw)
« Last Edit: January 6, 2011, 04:08:19 pm by jambutty »
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #727 on: January 6, 2011, 04:08:06 pm »
Don't be thick.

I am saying that he is the special player that took us to another level - and helped win those trophies.

Take him out the side and we wouldn't have even got to Istanbul, let alone won it.

He scored one there and two against West Ham in Rafa's two cup triumphs. And there's always the goal against Olympiakos.

He is a leader by example and he inspires. Whatever happens off the field he has been one of the best players this club has ever had and it's moronic to slate the guy.

I think Lucas has improved, not that he could have got much worse, and his attitude is very good - but I am not going to get carried away like many others and claim that he's the bollocks - because he really is not.

This attitude is symptomatic of the silly small mindedness that has crept into our fan base over the past 20 years to the extent that it seems a majority of our fans think one player is more important than the team. Its this sort of attitude which bred the issue of player power and which has ultimately played a huge role in the club being where it is today - with a clueless manager hired simply because he is English and a world class manager replaced because some "superstar" players don't get on with him and he is not allowed to replace him. More power to you ::)
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #728 on: January 6, 2011, 04:09:46 pm »
Nope, you are completely wrong. Inter were nothing after Ibra left, Juve collapsed into the doldrums the second Zidane got on the plane for Spain, and AC Milan are doing worse than ever now that Kaka has left, meanwhile a Ronaldo-less Man Utd are the only top team doing worse than us at the moment, while Ronaldinho's departure from Barca led directly to their relegation and complete disappearance of the face of the global football map.

On the other hand, maybe you're actually right, and it turns out that structure, strategy and management are far more important to the long term success of a club than any individual player, no matter how talented, will ever be, as has been proved by countless teams since the dawn of organised football. Remarkable that such a simple lesson with over 100 years worth of glaringly obvious precedent still escapes so many.
« Last Edit: January 6, 2011, 04:12:30 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #729 on: January 6, 2011, 04:12:00 pm »
time for the new man to build a team with lucas at the core of it.
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #730 on: January 6, 2011, 04:15:47 pm »
Nope, you are completely wrong. Inter were nothing after Ibra left, Juve collapsed into the doldrums the second Zidane got on the plane for Spain, and AC Milan are doing worse than ever now that Kaka has left, meanwhile a Ronaldo-less Man Utd are the only top team doing worse than us at the moment, while Ronaldinho's departure from Barca led directly to their relegation and complete disappearance of the face of the global football map.

On the other hand, maybe you're actually right, and it turns out that structure, strategy and management are far more important to the long term success of a club than any individual player, no matter how talented, will ever be, as has been proved by countless teams since the dawn of organised football. Remarkable that such a simple lesson with over 100 years worth of glaringly obvious precedent still escapes so many.

I will have to say that for a moment I was thinking what the fuck have you been drinking today. ;)

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #731 on: January 6, 2011, 04:17:35 pm »
I will have to say that for a moment I was thinking what the fuck have you been drinking today. ;)
Well, what with last night's result and the weather outside, it's a Thursday = Methsday alright.

Cocktail anyone? ;D
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #732 on: January 6, 2011, 04:49:43 pm »
Nope, you are completely wrong. Inter were nothing after Ibra left, Juve collapsed into the doldrums the second Zidane got on the plane for Spain, and AC Milan are doing worse than ever now that Kaka has left, meanwhile a Ronaldo-less Man Utd are the only top team doing worse than us at the moment, while Ronaldinho's departure from Barca led directly to their relegation and complete disappearance of the face of the global football map.

On the other hand, maybe you're actually right, and it turns out that structure, strategy and management are far more important to the long term success of a club than any individual player, no matter how talented, will ever be, as has been proved by countless teams since the dawn of organised football. Remarkable that such a simple lesson with over 100 years worth of glaringly obvious precedent still escapes so many.

Your second paragraph basically said what i was trying to say on the other page :D.

No player is bigger than the club, unfortunately at Liverpool, 2 players definately are.
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Offline ARI

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #733 on: January 6, 2011, 05:57:19 pm »
I like Rafa and would have preferred he weren't booted...but didn't he do well with the treble winning Inter side he inherited.

This is something I would like to reply to as I am sick of listening to this nonsense.

When Rafa got the Inter job I was happy for him as finally I thought he would get a chance to manage a ready made team. But the moment the season started and I realised Inter bought only 2 youngsters and nothing else I immediately knew he was screwed, and  true enough.

However if you actually followed Inter in the first few games of the season before the injuries you'd know that Inter had one of it's best ever start in terms of goals conceded since 99. Then all hell broke loose.

The reason I knew he was screwed was simple. Shanks and  Bob Paisley had already spelled it out way back then.

One of the secrets of Liverpool's longevity at the top, especially since Bob, is the the fact that wherever we finished back then we always bought new players, always! Not just to replace outgoing players but actually further strengthen the squad. And this was during the days of 1 substitution and no rotation. Almost always we were doing it from a position of strength. This unwritten rule of our success was probably learnt from Shanks fallow 7 year period when he persisted with the same players for far too long and found success again after replacing those aging  heroes.

When we did the double in 77 we went on to buy Kenny for a record fee and Souey the next season and retained the European Cup. When we won the Euro again in 81 we had on our books the most expensive teenager in world football in Rush and Grob and supplemented the squad with Lawro and Nicol the next season, players who were the backbone of Fagan's treble season. Under Kenny, when we did our first League and cup double, it was only after we bought Barnes and Beardo in 87 that we further extended our dominance having had net spend of -ve 2mil the season after the double.

In world football very very few teams have gone on to do a treble. We did it twice, Man U, Barca (6 in fact) and Inter. Of all these teams only Man U and Barca have gone on to win the league, so far at least. When we did the treble in 84 our net spend for the next season was almost nil and we won zilch. After the treble in 01 we broke even in the market and only came in 2nd, close but no cigar. But for the 99-00 season, Man U's net spend was about 8 mil, or about 20 mil in today's market and won the league again. Barca spent 70 mil Euro on Ibra and sent Eto' to Inter.  After winning the league again they sold Ibra and got in Villa.

Compare that to Inter and you should be able to see the picture. In fact, both teams that contested the European cup last season did not buy big this season and both have suffered greatly this season. Bayern have only now climbed the table having started extremely poorly due to.... ta da! injuries to key players. Then there's Chelsea who only bought Ramires and Benni this season after doing the double last season and look where they are.

Given these circumstances it's hardly surprising that Rafa was adamant about buying new players every season when he was with us, and this too not from a position of strength. To challenge for the title we needed more players and the same went for Inter, who probably had promised him some signings and reneged later on. One of the reasons we were so poor last season was because the horrific injury list not only prevented us from playing our best players it also stopped Rafa from rotating the squad and freshening it for the final push.  Coupled that with the negative net spend we had the perfect storm last season. The same thing has happened to him at Inter.. No one bats an eyelid when Barca and Man U strengthen after winning titles and cups but when Rafa demands improvement and new players for Liverpool, having coming so close to the title, or for Inter, to maintain their dominance he is accused of being greedy and controlling. To maintain your dominance in any field you have to be a step ahead of your rivals and always demanding improvement. When asked what his hopes are for the new year, Tiger Woods answers would always be the same every year. "I want to be better than last year". I'm going out on a limb here but could that be the reason for his dominance and making him one of the best to ever play the game of golf?

According to reports the pace of football these days is 20pc faster than it was back then and players play almost 30pc more than their predecessors. It's also why rotation is so vital in today's game. With the demands of winning being such and the pressure almost incessant it's hardly surprising that players are injured so easily hence the need for new blood every season. Obviously there are many reasons that go into winning anything but when all else is equal it's the little details that make a difference, or in some cases tens of millions of pounds. That I could tell beforehand that Rafa would have problems at Inter due to their lack of spending says something.

I find it outrageous that people don't see the correlation between spending and success especially in modern day football. That Man City have finally led the table, albeit briefly, after so long must all be a coincidence and nothing to do with their spending. Then again you don't have to believe me but maybe you'll believe this cock:

"Ballack's contract came to an end," Ferguson said, according to The Guardian. "Belletti's contract came to an end. They have been replacing these players with younger ones such as [Danny] Sturridge and the young boy [Josh] McEachran. So maybe that's why their results have been erratic. Their plan was always to start introducing younger players and I think that's a good thing but it can backfire if you get injuries."

The Scot also took a pop at the Blues' relatively small squad, as United in comparison have a larger squad that could arguably cope better with injuries.

He said: "You need big squads these days because the number of matches and the intensity of matches does produce injuries. There's no question that having a big squad helps."

The same cock who had the cheek to accuse Rafa of overspending.










Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #734 on: January 6, 2011, 06:43:44 pm »
This is something I would like to reply to as I am sick of listening to this nonsense.

When Rafa got the Inter job I was happy for him as finally I thought he would get a chance to manage a ready made team. But the moment the season started and I realised Inter bought only 2 youngsters and nothing else I immediately knew he was screwed, and  true enough.

However if you actually followed Inter in the first few games of the season before the injuries you'd know that Inter had one of it's best ever start in terms of goals conceded since 99. Then all hell broke loose.

Brilliant post mate.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #735 on: January 6, 2011, 06:45:08 pm »
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #736 on: January 6, 2011, 07:45:58 pm »
This is something I would like to reply to as I am sick of listening to this nonsense.

When Rafa got the Inter job I was happy for him as finally I thought he would get a chance to manage a ready made team. But the moment the season started and I realised Inter bought only 2 youngsters and nothing else I immediately knew he was screwed, and  true enough.

However if you actually followed Inter in the first few games of the season before the injuries you'd know that Inter had one of it's best ever start in terms of goals conceded since 99. Then all hell broke loose.

The reason I knew he was screwed was simple. Shanks and  Bob Paisley had already spelled it out way back then.

One of the secrets of Liverpool's longevity at the top, especially since Bob, is the the fact that wherever we finished back then we always bought new players, always! Not just to replace outgoing players but actually further strengthen the squad. And this was during the days of 1 substitution and no rotation. Almost always we were doing it from a position of strength. This unwritten rule of our success was probably learnt from Shanks fallow 7 year period when he persisted with the same players for far too long and found success again after replacing those aging  heroes.

When we did the double in 77 we went on to buy Kenny for a record fee and Souey the next season and retained the European Cup. When we won the Euro again in 81 we had on our books the most expensive teenager in world football in Rush and Grob and supplemented the squad with Lawro and Nicol the next season, players who were the backbone of Fagan's treble season. Under Kenny, when we did our first League and cup double, it was only after we bought Barnes and Beardo in 87 that we further extended our dominance having had net spend of -ve 2mil the season after the double.

In world football very very few teams have gone on to do a treble. We did it twice, Man U, Barca (6 in fact) and Inter. Of all these teams only Man U and Barca have gone on to win the league, so far at least. When we did the treble in 84 our net spend for the next season was almost nil and we won zilch. After the treble in 01 we broke even in the market and only came in 2nd, close but no cigar. But for the 99-00 season, Man U's net spend was about 8 mil, or about 20 mil in today's market and won the league again. Barca spent 70 mil Euro on Ibra and sent Eto' to Inter.  After winning the league again they sold Ibra and got in Villa.

Compare that to Inter and you should be able to see the picture. In fact, both teams that contested the European cup last season did not buy big this season and both have suffered greatly this season. Bayern have only now climbed the table having started extremely poorly due to.... ta da! injuries to key players. Then there's Chelsea who only bought Ramires and Benni this season after doing the double last season and look where they are.

Given these circumstances it's hardly surprising that Rafa was adamant about buying new players every season when he was with us, and this too not from a position of strength. To challenge for the title we needed more players and the same went for Inter, who probably had promised him some signings and reneged later on. One of the reasons we were so poor last season was because the horrific injury list not only prevented us from playing our best players it also stopped Rafa from rotating the squad and freshening it for the final push.  Coupled that with the negative net spend we had the perfect storm last season. The same thing has happened to him at Inter.. No one bats an eyelid when Barca and Man U strengthen after winning titles and cups but when Rafa demands improvement and new players for Liverpool, having coming so close to the title, or for Inter, to maintain their dominance he is accused of being greedy and controlling. To maintain your dominance in any field you have to be a step ahead of your rivals and always demanding improvement. When asked what his hopes are for the new year, Tiger Woods answers would always be the same every year. "I want to be better than last year". I'm going out on a limb here but could that be the reason for his dominance and making him one of the best to ever play the game of golf?

According to reports the pace of football these days is 20pc faster than it was back then and players play almost 30pc more than their predecessors. It's also why rotation is so vital in today's game. With the demands of winning being such and the pressure almost incessant it's hardly surprising that players are injured so easily hence the need for new blood every season. Obviously there are many reasons that go into winning anything but when all else is equal it's the little details that make a difference, or in some cases tens of millions of pounds. That I could tell beforehand that Rafa would have problems at Inter due to their lack of spending says something.

I find it outrageous that people don't see the correlation between spending and success especially in modern day football. That Man City have finally led the table, albeit briefly, after so long must all be a coincidence and nothing to do with their spending. Then again you don't have to believe me but maybe you'll believe this cock:

"Ballack's contract came to an end," Ferguson said, according to The Guardian. "Belletti's contract came to an end. They have been replacing these players with younger ones such as [Danny] Sturridge and the young boy [Josh] McEachran. So maybe that's why their results have been erratic. Their plan was always to start introducing younger players and I think that's a good thing but it can backfire if you get injuries."

The Scot also took a pop at the Blues' relatively small squad, as United in comparison have a larger squad that could arguably cope better with injuries.

He said: "You need big squads these days because the number of matches and the intensity of matches does produce injuries. There's no question that having a big squad helps."

The same cock who had the cheek to accuse Rafa of overspending.


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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #737 on: January 6, 2011, 09:09:42 pm »
Yup. Nice one, ARI.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #738 on: January 6, 2011, 09:20:28 pm »
When teams crumble, as Liverpool did last night, it's not uncommon for an 'every man for himself' attitude to kick in. The manager is a busted flush and everyone knows it. He may be standing outside the dugout, like Hodgson was, but he is no longer shouting instructions, or even giving advice. And anyway, if he does, nobody listens to it. It's actually impossible to hear because it's coming from a ghost. What little coherence there is in a losing team disappears completely when the players know a regime is about to fall and that the game is about much more than the loss of 3 points.

Lucas needs to latch on to this. Last night he was one of the few Liverpool players sticking to the script. He held position, he supported his teammates, he swept up when the defence was beaten. It was valiant, it was selfless and it was brave. But all around him, especially after the third went in, his teammates were playing as if we no longer had a manager and as if they had no other responsibilities except to themselves. The result, ironically, was some of the most expressive football this season. Those who are no good - we know who they are - disappeared completely. But Gerrard, Agger, Torres, and even Cole actually showed aptitude. There was precious little teamwork and no plan, but at least they were momentarily liberated from Hodgson's idea of teamwork and Hodgson's plan. Gerrard, especially (and unsurprisingly) thrived. He's never much liked working to a plan anyway.

I was dying for our best player this season - Lucas, obviously - to join in, or rather opt out. I wanted him to acquire a bit of 'every man for himself' and to start attacking recklessly and taking absurd risks. "Forget the pass to Kuyt, son. It's only gonna come back to you and put you in a worse place than you were before". "Leave Skrtel to it. If he can't stop his man, so what? Let him do his own defending. Who cares if they get a 4th". "Take your man on, dribble a bit, don't support the dead beat on the ball, get into the box and grab a bit of personal glory". "Fuck the team!".

Instead of which Lucas kept doing his problem-solving, fire-fighting thing. And because he's as fit as a butcher's dog he did it well. But come on Lucas lad. Save yourself! That's what the other lot are doing.

Postscript. I watched a stream of the game with a man commentating who'd never seen a football match before. It was like watching an Ancient Egyptian explaining the United States' Space Programme. 

 

The beautiful irony is that if Lucas were to play like you have suggested, all of those who still doubt him would be left wondering "Where the fuck has this player been?"
It's like all punishments though, isn't it. You just have to close your eyes, grit your teeth and think of England. - Yorkykopite

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #739 on: January 6, 2011, 09:24:34 pm »
time for the new man to build a team with lucas at the core of it.

He isnt man enough to be our core yet. Building a team round him would be plain stupid.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #740 on: January 6, 2011, 09:25:07 pm »
Well, what with last night's result and the weather outside, it's a Thursday = Methsday alright.

Cocktail anyone? ;D

Maybe a Meth-a-rita would do the trick?  ;)
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Offline Salty Dog

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #741 on: January 6, 2011, 09:32:08 pm »
He isnt man enough to be our core yet. Building a team round him would be plain stupid.

Man I can't wait to see what Mano Menezes' Brazil side goes on to accomplish.  Lucas is in fact the man that team is being built around.  *Waiting with baited breath*
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Offline JWAlonso

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #742 on: January 6, 2011, 09:32:56 pm »
Lucas, keeps the shape in midfield. Been great this season, but when he collects the ball infront off the box, I would love it for him to make that forward run, that killer shot or that quick one two into the box, than to pass it out wide. Where the cross is poor, or we our getting out jumped by 6'6 defenders all the time.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #743 on: January 6, 2011, 11:02:12 pm »
He isnt man enough to be our core yet. Building a team round him would be plain stupid.

No, he isn't man enough to be the core yet. That's why building the team around him would be a good idea. Paisley and Shankly explain why in the level 3 thread.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #744 on: January 6, 2011, 11:06:12 pm »
Lucas, keeps the shape in midfield. Been great this season, but when he collects the ball infront off the box, I would love it for him to make that forward run, that killer shot or that quick one two into the box, than to pass it out wide. Where the cross is poor, or we our getting out jumped by 6'6 defenders all the time.

He did that last night, played a neat one two at close quarters with Ngog, I think, drove into the box but then squared for Cole. Could've had a pop himself, though.

Offline tboz

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #745 on: January 6, 2011, 11:12:00 pm »
No, he isn't man enough to be the core yet. That's why building the team around him would be a good idea. Paisley and Shankly explain why in the level 3 thread.

By building a team around him, do you mean a palyers that make up his weakness and play to his strengths?
If so why him and not an already accomplished or proven player such as torres, gerrard or agger?

Offline Mad Men

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #746 on: January 6, 2011, 11:13:32 pm »
He isnt man enough to be our core yet. Building a team round him would be plain stupid.

Your anti-Lucas stance is very well noted.

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Offline Breitner

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #747 on: January 6, 2011, 11:20:30 pm »
Best vision, best on the ball, best passer, great tackler, rough as fuck but with a schoolboy's smile, good header.

New contender for my sig, though there's also a good one about him being more suited to Barca's midfield. Maybe it's just the level we're at that bog standard players are gushed over.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #748 on: January 6, 2011, 11:22:38 pm »
New contender for my sig, though there's also a good one about him being more suited to Barca's midfield. Maybe it's just the level we're at that bog standard players are gushed over.

Yea, I made the comment of how he would probably fit in comfortably into a Barcelona midfield.

Some people don't realize what a talent he is and how much better he can be when the team is firing on all cylinders. He is/can be a vital part of the midfield machinery. Me thinks. Laaaa...
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #749 on: January 7, 2011, 12:10:52 am »
By building a team around him, do you mean a palyers that make up his weakness and play to his strengths?
If so why him and not an already accomplished or proven player such as torres, gerrard or agger?

Because you're asking all the wrong questions. See Shankly's explanation of the Liverpool way of playing football. Understand what he means when he says football is a simple game.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline tboz

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #750 on: January 7, 2011, 12:47:29 am »
Because you're asking all the wrong questions. See Shankly's explanation of the Liverpool way of playing football. Understand what he means when he says football is a simple game.

thanks for answering the question.
« Last Edit: January 7, 2011, 12:50:31 am by tboz »

Offline mulhergremista

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #751 on: January 7, 2011, 12:58:12 am »
Man I can't wait to see what Mano Menezes' Brazil side goes on to accomplish.  Lucas is in fact the man that team is being built around.  *Waiting with baited breath*


Not surprising at all
. Mano Meneses watched lucas while the latter was stil in the academy (youth teams of gremio. which lived in the premises)  Mano promoted him to the first team when Gremio was relegated!!  (Anderson was also promoted  in the same way, even younger but tough from he rough suburb he was born in.  Anderson scored victory goal when Gremio was reduced to 7 men away from home and an hostile local police beat them mercilessly.  That was the  match Lucas played for Gremio in his first days a a first team player.  This victory brought  Gremio back to the serie A of the Brasileirao, became the saga of every Gremista and was called afterward "the battle of the Aflitos"  (the name fo the stadium when this occured)  After that, everything looks easy, said Anderson afer scoring a penalty for United in the Cl tropy game.  Anderson began his Europe career in Porto at a very early age, suffered a terrible injury and did not play for a long time.  After that ManU bought him.   He shone in his first year, and than has his ups and downs. Lucas on the other hand stayed in Gremio and Mano Menezes practically built the team around him and an older player named Checo.   In the first year back from relegation Mano's team gained a place in the Livbertadores and Lucas was elected best player in Brasil.  Lucas wanted to stay longer in Gremio and gain trophies there, but afterwards came the offer from Liverpool and Lucas duly left.   Gremio after the departure of Lucas and Mano suffered some drawbacks.   Lucas was lucky to have a real coach during his young days.  He said many times that he  owed a lot to Mano, who was strict with him, praised him when it was due and  critisized him  also  when it was due.  There was a very good understanding  between them. 
SO it was logical and normal that Mano will give him a chance in his team in NT.  Lucas came there fortified, a different Lucas that Mano did not know.  He was much tougher in his physic, more skilled in defensive tasks. More mature in general. While In Gremio he was no. 8. so called segundo volante. Means that he was the one more advaned and usualy had another, more desructive, behind him, called primeiro volante
Today Lucas plays primeiro volante
, he feels comfortable in this roll, he said.   Ramires is the more advanced ones/  But as in theatre, there are not small  and big parts, only big and small actors.   IMHO, Lucas proved a great actor in his (so called) small part.   
I wish I had the writing talent of Ari to describe it more systemathically.But those of you who were lucky to watch the 4 games of the Mano selecion, could see a Lucas who was one of the key players of the team.  taking the ball from the CD, double passes with the FB s, many times iniciate some lances that bring goals.  At the same time he also covers for those of the defense quartet who run forward to assist the attack.   His improving since the Olympic games surprised even me, one of his most faithful fans. 
Reading some posts here, I woder what would have become of Gerrard if Mano Menezes were his academy coach. Maybe one of he best players in he world
Mano always talked with the players, collectively and also privately with some of his "babies" He did not spare them, but they  learned much about all the aspect of football, from the physical aspect till the mental , tactics and all.

IN Gremio there were concentrations in hotels of the players before  important home games, and clinics in some resort often before away games. The players spent more times together and felt more like "a team"

When Lucas came to England he was surprised "Train only once a day, no concentrations??"  in one of his most recent interview to the Sportv channel in Brazil, he talked about it "saying: this not only enabled us to spend more time with the family, but put more responsability upon every one of us.  THe coach and staff entrusted the players to take care of themselves many hours in the week.  That was the interpratation of Lucas on this practice in EPL. Lucas took it seriously, living the life of a professional athlete and playing "for the team".  Of course there were others who spent this free time drinking in bars, not mentioning some worse adventures..
To finish this too long post, I assure you, beleiving or not, there is more to Lucas than you see in the first glance.  His tweeter posts are yet another proof of his excellent choise of words, with subtle irony that is only vaguey noticed. 
In the a/m interview, when he served as guide to the reporter in whole the infrastructure of Liverpool training complex, which most of us has never seen, he shared a Carraguer epizode with us , while laghing heartily (Now, not then)

It was just a few days after he came to England, his English was very basic, and Carraguer accent was horrible, according to Lucas, he did not understand a word.. but he understood that Cara is an important senior player so he just answered it with a contundent YES!!  The anger of the defender made him understand his error, he quickly utterd "NO,NO,NO" than Cara said OK and roamed on.  Lucas confessed that up to this moment he has no idea what Carraguer wanted to tell him that day.  So he finishes the video session smiling and in a good mood, winning over some young supporters to whom he bothers answer the tweets patiently.   For me, a leader potential for days to come, as they say in Brazil "se Deus quiser" (Providing The Lord is willing", always add when somebody is speculating about
 the future.

Here is the video of this interview or guided tour in Anfield, call it want you want. 
http://sportv.globo.com/videos/v/expresso-da-bola:-bastidores-do-liverpool---25-de-novembro-de-2010---bloco-2/1382540/#/Programas/Expresso%20da%20Bola

 

« Last Edit: January 7, 2011, 01:00:57 am by mulhergremista »

Offline smig

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #752 on: January 7, 2011, 01:07:04 am »
Don't be thick.

I am saying that he is the special player that took us to another level - and helped win those trophies.

Take him out the side and we wouldn't have even got to Istanbul, let alone won it.

He scored one there and two against West Ham in Rafa's two cup triumphs. And there's always the goal against Olympiakos.

He is a leader by example and he inspires. Whatever happens off the field he has been one of the best players this club has ever had and it's moronic to slate the guy.

I think Lucas has improved, not that he could have got much worse, and his attitude is very good - but I am not going to get carried away like many others and claim that he's the bollocks - because he really is not.
Spot on.
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Offline smig

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #753 on: January 7, 2011, 01:16:12 am »
Yorky's finger on the pulse.

He's our most composed player on the pitch.  Best vision, best on the ball, best passer, great tackler, rough as fuck but with a schoolboy's smile, good header.   Has clearly learned from Xabi, Mash & Gerrard.  When he starts getting instructions to go forward...........
Jesus Christ...
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Offline kkhaku

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #754 on: January 7, 2011, 01:32:09 am »
Yea, I made the comment of how he would probably fit in comfortably into a Barcelona midfield.

Some people don't realize what a talent he is and how much better he can be when the team is firing on all cylinders. He is/can be a vital part of the midfield machinery. Me thinks. Laaaa...

As much as I love Lucas I have to disagree with you there.

He's come a long way, and he'll go on to be something quite special I'm sure - but fitting into Barca's midfield at his current level is a bit of a joke.

He doesn't have the footwork nor the dynamism to go past players or twist his way out of tight corners. His delivery, while precise and deliberate, still lacks improvisation. He also still lacks the ability to dictate the tempo of the match, as well as the mentality to finish the golden chances he gets when he makes smart runs into the area. His technique in general is also quite poor, which can easily be seen when he takes a corner or a freekick.

As I said, he's a very good player, and he'll get even better...but he's got quite a ways to go before you can justify him fitting into a Barca side.
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Offline deadlybuzz

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #755 on: January 7, 2011, 01:52:48 am »

Not surprising at all. Mano Meneses watched lucas while the latter was still in the academy...

Very interesting mulhergremista. I had a fair idea of Lucas' Gremio days being more of a box-to-box midfielder but I didn't realise he was involved in helping the team return to the Serie A after relegation. It shows he had a lot to learn during that time.
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Offline Ambrosia

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #756 on: January 7, 2011, 02:04:29 am »
He doesn't have the footwork nor the dynamism to go past players or twist his way out of tight corners. His delivery, while precise and deliberate, still lacks improvisation. He also still lacks the ability to dictate the tempo of the match, as well as the mentality to finish the golden chances he gets when he makes smart runs into the area. His technique in general is also quite poor, which can easily be seen when he takes a corner or a freekick.

As I said, he's a very good player, and he'll get even better...but he's got quite a ways to go before you can justify him fitting into a Barca side.
Poor technique? Lucas? never thought i'd see those words in the same sentence. Can't twist his way out of tight corners? i doubt his constant high passing rate percentage occurred through not just being pressurised on the ball.

Lucas is a pass and move player. He doesn't need to do half of the things you described, if he were to play in the Barca team. Control the tempo, that's Xavi's job, finishing is Messi/Villa/Iniesta/Pedro's job, set pieces, Xavi/Alves will be taking them.

You also need to consider the affects playing in a successful, football playing team will have on him. Much like Busquets, i believe he has the talent to transform into an incredible player when playing in the correct environment.

Offline Breitner

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #757 on: January 7, 2011, 02:05:34 am »
As much as I love Lucas I have to disagree with you there.

He's come a long way, and he'll go on to be something quite special I'm sure - but fitting into Barca's midfield at his current level is a bit of a joke.

He doesn't have the footwork nor the dynamism to go past players or twist his way out of tight corners. His delivery, while precise and deliberate, still lacks improvisation. He also still lacks the ability to dictate the tempo of the match, as well as the mentality to finish the golden chances he gets when he makes smart runs into the area. His technique in general is also quite poor, which can easily be seen when he takes a corner or a freekick.

As I said, he's a very good player, and he'll get even better...but he's got quite a ways to go before you can justify him fitting into a Barca side.

Indeed. I think he's been magnificent in a number of one off games but that's where it ends and he goes back into his shell the next week. I've tried and tried to keep the faith; I'm well aware of what's expected of a modern CM and the need for a metronomic player but I just don't see someone with the aggression and mentality to figure in a succesful side in our league. At the end of the day that's what we're here for isn't it, to be successful? And not just to pore over the intricacies of a 5 yard pass.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #758 on: January 7, 2011, 02:36:23 am »
Indeed. I think he's been magnificent in a number of one off games but that's where it ends and he goes back into his shell the next week. I've tried and tried to keep the faith; I'm well aware of what's expected of a modern CM and the need for a metronomic player but I just don't see someone with the aggression and mentality to figure in a succesful side in our league. At the end of the day that's what we're here for isn't it, to be successful? And not just to pore over the intricacies of a 5 yard pass.

Do you also post at TIA, mate?
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Offline jammy dodger

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #759 on: January 7, 2011, 02:54:54 am »
Batalha Dos Aflitos -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjXG87Yw4ys

Anderson, wow. You can see longlocked Lucas in there as well. This game is CRAZY.
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