Author Topic: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween  (Read 9198 times)

Offline guest

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Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« on: November 1, 2012, 05:41:48 pm »
On the full time whistle at Anfield, amidst murmurs ranging from disinterest to discontent, came an anguished howl. This was no werewolf, nor the phantom of Anfield - it was a monkey firmly on the back of the club's managing director Ian Ayre, who claimed in the summer that domestic cups are not important to Liverpool. Here was the first chance to test its legitimacy; Liverpool's grasp on the League Cup had been relinquished. His comments were about to come back and haunt him. It was Halloween, after all.

In the aftermath of Kenny Dalglish's usurpation in May, it was Ayre's words that cut supporters deepest. It is a club whose tapestry is woven with so many moments in the FA Cup and League Cup, a club whose supporters possess a bulging mental scrapbook of magnificent memories from the past six decades. Ian St.John weaves into Keegan; Keegan into Dalglish; Dalglish moves Rush; Rush into McManaman; McManaman into Steven Gerrard. A picture perfect history. After spending hundreds and thousands following their side to two cup finals last season, it was a final slap in the face for supporters already showing welts of woe from Dalglish's dismissal.

It was poorly phrased by Ayre, but in reality was merely another sandwich in the picnic of public relations disasters the club have feasted on over the past two years. That he was speaking from a business perspective was understandable, but it is hard to understand the business sense in telling customers their hard-earned money spent watching Liverpool is regarded as futile. It is hard to understand, too, how trophies can be classed as unimportant when the tears of Liverpool that stained Wembley in May have only just started to fade.

But within the poorly-timed, poorly-articulated remarks hides a shred of truth. Though the two cup campaigns last season provided more matter for the mental scrapbook, qualification to the Champions League is needed to bring the club closer to their first league championship since 1990, no matter how distant that may seem. It's a simple equation: Champions League football attracts better players; better players improve the squad; improving the squad brings that elusive title closer. Improving the squad also allows the team to fight for every cup. Some are more worthy than others, but none of them worthless.

But Ayre's comments in May undermined that thought process. Some supporters took it to mean Kenny Dalglish could only save his job if he had finished fourth and some expect Brendan Rodgers has to achieve fourth-place minimum to avoid the same fate as the legendary Scot. Neither is necessarily true.

No matter. Liverpool are out of the League Cup - the cup they held aloft proudly in February - after a comprehensive defeat to Swansea. It was a game that exposed the emaciation of Rodgers' squad, with a central midfielder at right back, a scarcely-tried 18-year-old up-front alone and Joe Cole on the pitch. If the cups do not matter, then Rodgers can count himself fortunate, for he had little to work with on Wednesday with Everton three days gone and Newcastle three days ahead.

But the cups do matter to supporters. The limp, lifeless 3-1 defeat to Swansea is the first real setback for the manager since his ascension to the Anfield throne. Supporters want to see progress from Kenny Dalglish's 18 months - Rodgers losing the trophy Dalglish won does not help that. It is the first tangible comparison between the two managers and, unfortunately for the current incumbent, his back is against the dugout wall.

Comparisons are ultimately futile, and undeniably unhelpful. Unlike Dalglish, Rodgers has the Europa League to contend with; unlike Dalglish, who had striking options such as Dirk Kuyt, Craig Bellamy and Maxi Rodriguez in reserve, Rodgers must juggle his young, threadbare squad like confetti in a hurricane. But when Liverpool's hierarchy dismisses domestic trophies, whether intentionally or not, a greater importance is placed on league position - a league Liverpool currently occupy the bottom half of.

The defeat to Swansea was not down to any misplaced comments in the summer, though. This defeat is one Rodgers will take responsibility for. Though his options are limited given the paucity of depth in the squad, more pragmatism with his squad is needed. Much like Sunday against Everton, it was clear some players are struggling to adapt to the demands of his philosophy. He cannot change the players, and he certainly should not change the philosophy, but he failed to react to the problems both his own players and the opposition were providing. It is a system that requires 11 good players; there were not 11 good Liverpool players on the pitch, and not even success in the much-maligned pursuit of Clint Dempsey would have changed that.

Perhaps an exit from the League Cup will prove useful over the course of the season. Less games to stretch the squad even further and less microscopic exposure of players who have to be tucked up in bed if the match goes into extra time. Short-term pain, long-term gain. Indeed, that is the mantra Rodgers will stick to in light of this defeat. He will point to his former club Swansea as proof of that. The Welsh side came to Anfield with a style and swagger that Liverpool have lacked for years and to reinstall that into a faltering red machine may be the biggest task of all.

The cups might not be important to the Anfield hierarchy, but most of the supporters disagreed at full time. So, too, will Rodgers if his side don't continue their climb up the table. His focus - now, more than ever - will be on the Premier League. With just two wins so far, it simply has to be.

Link: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/liverpool/id/249?cc=5739

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #1 on: November 2, 2012, 08:15:07 am »
Thanks for that Kris. It's not where I am personally, but I don't have any real insight into matchgoing fans' views, so I'll be honest - it's a worry. Rodgers needs time and support.

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #2 on: November 2, 2012, 08:25:05 am »
I admire Rodgers and his balls to take on this job.

While The owners still are after reducing the wage bill, either rightly or wrong. With probably one of the thinnest squads in the league

Having the youngest squad in the league. and Playing week in and week out a 17 year old because he is one of the best players we have.

Having only one striker. and his only Cover is out injured for 3 months. His Only Defensive midfielder is still out with an injury.

And still bearing heavy expectations of the supporters... Some even expect top 4 some expect a rapid and sudden improvement.

U would think the man is a masochist. But Seriously tho, I admire even his will to work under those circumstances. No one can Enjoy
that unless u are slightly unconsciously mad.

The Exit from the league cup for me is a blessing, there is no way we can challenge in all 4 competitions this season with our squad.
Even Two seems unrealistic at times.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2012, 08:28:43 am by Get »
Quote from: Fordy on July 20, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Anything more that 6m for Joe Allen and we have been ripped off.

Loads of Joe allens out there.

I would like to see him stay at Swansea myself and see if he can have another decent season. He is a championship player - players like a championship player.

Offline aggerdid

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #3 on: November 2, 2012, 08:31:59 am »
If anybody wants to compare dalglish and rodgers based on the carling cup then they need to think again. Kenny wanted to win a trophy or 2 to get us back to winning ways. Rodgers has been told to do the opposite
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Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #4 on: November 2, 2012, 08:42:12 am »
The depressing thing about the Swansea defeat was the fact that a team that was only promoted last season came and played us off the pitch.

Its not Rogers fault - the situation he faces is simply stage 7 in the Liverpool 'How to self destruct' in the space of 6 years:

In Spring 2007 we were in the Champs League final:

Stage 1 - Sell the club to 2 idiots
Stage 2 - Sack most successful manager in recent history
Stage 3 - Employ overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager
Stage 4 - Sack overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager rendering reasons for his employment pointless
Stage 5 - Employ fans favourite despite obvious and clear dangers
Stage 6 - Sack fans favourite prematurely without giving his plan a chance rendering reasons for his employment and spending pointless
Stage 7 - Sell half of squad and employ new young untried manager and then expect him to turn water in wine.

And we wonder why we are heading for upper middle table mediocrity.
No wonder Man United are pissing themselve laughing

Offline hollger

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #5 on: November 2, 2012, 08:49:38 am »
He cannot change the players, and he certainly should not change the philosophy, but he failed to react to the problems both his own players and the opposition were providing. It is a system that requires 11 good players; there were not 11 good Liverpool players on the pitch, and not even success in the much-maligned pursuit of Clint Dempsey would have changed that.

Perhaps an exit from the League Cup will prove useful over the course of the season.

I've just picked out two bits that for me struck a chord.

Firstly, I don't think he could win either way with what he did against Swansea. We want to rest our key team members for the upcoming 'more important' league games and we have players in the squad who aren't getting regular action, so it's logical to rotate the starting 11. In amongst those players not regularly involved are a fair few notable so-called 'big' players (be that their price tag, their reputation, etc) - players you'd want to give a chance to, to see if they can react to their situation. Obviously there are two outcomes to this - the players react and put themselves into contention for league matches, increasing a healthy competition for places amongst the squad. Or, they completely fail to perform and let you down, which was the case for a couple on Wednesday. Unfortunately that then means we're moved to bring on 3 of our first teamers (one of whom is a 17 year old), risking their health and fitness to chase the game.

I think Rodgers made two errors of judgement for me. One was not playing Pacheco over Cole and the other was starting with Yesil alone. I didn't have a problem giving Joe Cole a chance, but he well and truly blew it. Whether you can cut him some slack and say "well, he's not played in ages" or not is up for debate but personally I would have hoped he wouldn't have started unless he had shown signs of decent fitness etc in training. As for Yesil, well we can't keep playing Suarez as he'll get injured, tired or suspended sooner or later. But Yesil is a very young boy and to have the role he did I thought was a tough ask. If he'd had support then we may have seen better involvement but he didn't get it, whether that was down to the players meant to provide that support (e.g. Cole, Downing, Assaidi) or the system is up for debate as both were problematic.

Ultimately we are where we are - the squad is thin (and as a result we see people like Henderson deployed in unfamiliar positions), but Rodgers shoulders some of the blame for that with his transfer dealings. Should Jay Spearing not be out on loan then we could have rested Allen (who didn't have the best of games), for example. But you are right - there we not 11 good players out there, and unless Rodgers is backed in the upcoming windows then we won't be seeing much improvement with what we've got at the moment (but even that is an issue, as there may be less available funds due to the over-spending on players last season and unless we can recoup some of that with their sales, we're stuck!).

Secondly, the League Cup itself - it is, in all honesty, the competition I'd be most willing to sacrifice from those we're involved in. We're not going to win the Premier League but we want to finish as high as we possibly can, and a League Cup run will only add games into the schedule. If we manage to progress in the Europa League then that'll be more games, and of course there's the FA Cup to consider. So all in all, I'm not too bothered about going out. I'm more bothered about the way we went out, but that's a double-edged sword that has being discussed to death elsewhere (and touched on above).

Patience is what is required - we're simply not a great team at present. We have some outstanding players, but not enough 'good' players to allow us to compete on multiple fronts. As long as we can manage to steadily improve the team then over time we will get better. I just hope, as Roy mentions, that Rodgers is given that time and support. I think the owners will be willing to do that as he is their man - it's the so-called "fans" I'm more concerned about.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #6 on: November 2, 2012, 09:17:50 am »
A well written and most importantly, well balanced article.

Some people may argue that taking the League Cup seriously is a sign of how far we have fallen, but Kenny had two trophies he could realistically win last year, the League Cup and the FA cup. He got us to the final of both competitions, winning one and narrowly losing the other. That win was our first trophy for six years and probably came at just the right time as any longer than that can be considered a real drought and can become an albatross around our neck. Look at Arsenal and how their manager almost prides himself on not winning any trophies and you can see how going too long without success breeds complacency. Football Clubs exist to win trophies; that must never be forgotten.

Rodger’s has three cups to aim for this year with the addition of the Europa League however, we are fighting with a squad that has lost a clutch of senior players leaving our squad looking very thin. One of these competitions needed to be sacrificed and unfortunately the League Cup is everybody’s sacrificial lamb. For a club that harbours ambitions of reaching the Champions League again we need to do well in the Europa League to keep our coefficient as high as possible which gives us the best chance of a favourable draw. We only have to look at City and their groups of death in the last two years to see how difficult it can be.

Some positives we can take from the competition though are that a lot of the youngsters who played so well in the cup victory over WBA now find themselves in the first team. It is ironic that Wednesday gave us the opportunity to rest some of these youngsters to give some senior players some game time.

For now though we need to manage expectations until at least January. We are woefully short on quality and numbers in our squad, we probably have 1-2 outstanding individuals with 5 or 6 Premier League quality players and the rest are either promising youngsters or expensive flops. We need to address that balance more in January with at least 3 or 4 additions to the Premier League quality bracket and maybe one to the outstanding bracket. I think Wednesday was a wake-up call to Rodger’s and he now realises how thin our squad is in terms of quality and how big a job he has in front of him.     
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Offline 1892RedMatt

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #7 on: November 2, 2012, 09:26:51 am »
The depressing thing about the Swansea defeat was the fact that a team that was only promoted last season came and played us off the pitch.

Its not Rogers fault - the situation he faces is simply stage 7 in the Liverpool 'How to self destruct' in the space of 6 years:

In Spring 2007 we were in the Champs League final:

Stage 1 - Sell the club to 2 idiots
Stage 2 - Sack most successful manager in recent history
Stage 3 - Employ overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager
Stage 4 - Sack overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager rendering reasons for his employment pointless
Stage 5 - Employ fans favourite despite obvious and clear dangers
Stage 6 - Sack fans favourite prematurely without giving his plan a chance rendering reasons for his employment and spending pointless
Stage 7 - Sell half of squad and employ new young untried manager and then expect him to turn water in wine.

And we wonder why we are heading for upper middle table mediocrity.
No wonder Man United are pissing themselve laughing

100% agree with this

Manager's Philosophy is right, unfortunately the players are wrong and you can't change the playing staff in one or two windows. I think how he is trying to change the squad is correct and I just hope he get the support over upcoming seasons

Offline Kopite1971

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #8 on: November 2, 2012, 09:31:32 am »
Patience is what is required - we're simply not a great team at present. We have some outstanding players, but not enough 'good' players to allow us to compete on multiple fronts. As long as we can manage to steadily improve the team then over time we will get better. I just hope, as Roy mentions, that Rodgers is given that time and support. I think the owners will be willing to do that as he is their man - it's the so-called "fans" I'm more concerned about.

I always find these comments of questioning whether the "So called fans" will give the manager support quite amazing to be honest.

With the sole exception of Roy Hodgeson, I don't know of any manager at Liverpool, certainly not in the 40 years that I've been going to Anfield that hasn't enjoyed the benefit of support from the fans. I can think of plenty of occasions where the press and ex Liverpool players haven't given the manager support and by voicing it over the airways it gains momentum.  Ofcourse There's plenty of people who'll phone up Radio City etc proclaiming Liverpool to be on the way to becoming Champions because of one good result and subsequently it's all doom and gloom because of bad result, and maybe thats whom your referring to with the comments posted, in which case I agree with you.

Brendan Rodgers certainly is enjoying the support of match going fans, it took a couple of weeks for his name to ring out and while Dalglish's name is still rightly sung in the stadium it's quickly followed by Radgers name being sung too. There is I think concern amongst any Liverpool fan as to what will happen to our club, but at this moment I'd say FSG still get the benefit of the doubt as they unravel the mess that Liverpool had become under their predessors.  Rodgers knows he has to get results in the league and partly because of Ayre's comments highlighted by the OP and because most people can see for themselves what's happened Rodgers will be given time to sort things out.

To me the key decisons will be whether the pundits and indeed FSG themselves have the patience to see this through if things don't go as well as they'd hoped when they appointed Rodgers.
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Offline fowler9_god

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #9 on: November 2, 2012, 09:50:53 am »
I have to ask this. Is Rodgers the manager to take us from 8th to 4th?

The thing is Brendan is an idealist. He has a way of playing that 'if' it clicks, we'd all be very happy. But for me, for Rodgers to succeed, he'd need top players. Top players who can do the job day in, day out.

There would be no stop gaps, not buying a fourth leg just to balance the table and keep it afloat. No more Zenden doing a very unfashionable job down at the left side but an effective one. No more Crouch just to keep the ball in the final 3rd to get others into play.

The Crouch thing is very glaring for me. Rafa knew the ball was sticking in the final 3rd in his first season. He got Crouch in and the results improved instantly. Plus a few others who were all very good physical players. Rafa sussed out what was needed in the league in one season. Result : 83 points.

Right now, Rodgers likes a 4-3-3. The midfield control is critical. But how many midfielders can control a midfield unless we are looking at Pirlo, Xavi, Scholes? Allen can't do it on his own. And what happens when Allen gets injured? Who can play to Rodger's philosophy? Liverpool FC expected or atleast did a few seasons back to compete for trophies.

For me, and keeping FSG in mind, we needed a manager who'd be akin to their style. And what's their style? Wheel and deal for a player, get a bargain buy for less wages etc. Now does Brendan fit that bill? Brendan wants to build a rolls royce and the only thing that he can do is build a Rolls Royce. We have to give him the right engine for that. But are we capable? Can Brendan improve players so much that they can actually play a style, which lets be honest, is high maintainence and very fragile. If you lose a part, you have to replace it with an equally good part and the Rolls Royce won't function as well. And thats the clash in philosophy. The difference between the board and the manager.

We need someone who can get a side, look at their abilities and say 'Right, this is what I have, this is the way to go about it. I have Andy Caroll, lets buy a midfield runner and an inside forward who can get to his knockdowns, and build a side around him and Suarez.'

Instead, we went the other way, sold half our squad and went for a different philosophy when the truth is we cannot afford one.

Now Rodgers is here, I am hoping against hope that he can turn it around. He has potential, I hope we do not ruin a pretty good manager in the making and kill his career here. I hope we give it time, but I don't think time would solve the problems we have.

Not asking for his head or anything. That'll be mental with only 4 months into the season. I hope he learns and learns fast though. Because he is likeable and likes the club. I can definetly identify with what he wants , but I guess it'll be another case of 'right manager, wrong time'.


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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #10 on: November 2, 2012, 09:58:42 am »
Good writer you Kris.

I don't know where i'm at honestly. There's just always something isn't there at this club.

Offline rednich85

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #11 on: November 2, 2012, 10:10:18 am »
That's a very good piece, thanks L6.

Good job on keeping it well balanced. It would have been easier to slate the manager.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #12 on: November 2, 2012, 10:12:35 am »
Good article mate.

Im hearing this morning theres ten million to spend in Jan.

I really, REALLY hope that isnt true otherwise our goosed is cooked. It will cause fallout from the top to bottom and the fans will lose patience.
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Offline stewil007

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #13 on: November 2, 2012, 10:23:17 am »
I love cup runs, i love seeing us on TV on any night of the week, whether it was CL tues or weds or C5 EL, away at minnow utd on a wet windy night for the Cap One Cup, i really didnt care, just as long as i got to see my team play.

Now however, i would happily see us forego all cups to get us back up the league challenging for at least 4th.  By spreading our butter so thinly in 4 competitions, we are hurting ourselves over the short to medium term.

The truth of the matter is, this year we have a squad that is capable of going at one competition and that is all.  That competition is the Premier League and we need to protect the essential players we have now.

By trying in all 4 comps, we have already hurt ourselves, in terms of injuries, poor performances, lost points.  For the next few years, I would happily see us play an u-18 team in the cups if it meant we started attacking the league.  Otherwise, if we carry on as we are, we'll be bang-average for many years to come.

Offline rednich85

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #14 on: November 2, 2012, 10:31:24 am »
Good article mate.

Im hearing this morning theres ten million to spend in Jan.

I really, REALLY hope that isnt true otherwise our goosed is cooked. It will cause fallout from the top to bottom and the fans will lose patience.

I'm hearing we have £37,652,212.33 to spend.

We'll be ok if its true.
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Offline hollger

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #15 on: November 2, 2012, 10:39:32 am »
I always find these comments of questioning whether the "So called fans" will give the manager support quite amazing to be honest.

Just read the latter pages of the thread titled 'Tactical prowess from Rodgers' to see what I mean.

You also have reports from match-goers on here saying that there are people leaving Anfield early, there is unrest in the crowd, even some booing.

It's the same with every team though to be fair, there's always people who aren't happy with something. Anyway, it's not a topic for this thread so I'll not say any more!

Quick edit: With regards to the rest of your post, I agree. It's sadly the way football seems to be thesedays - murmurings of discontent on the more widely heard public shows (e.g. TalkShite, Sky's phone-ins), negative headlines and more in-depth articles in the press and before you know it there's a 'wavering of support' for Rodgers. That's when I hope FSG have the balls to stick with their decision and back their man.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2012, 10:46:59 am by hollger »

Offline LondonRedMan

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #16 on: November 2, 2012, 10:53:14 am »
The depressing thing about the Swansea defeat was the fact that a team that was only promoted last season came and played us off the pitch.

Its not Rogers fault - the situation he faces is simply stage 7 in the Liverpool 'How to self destruct' in the space of 6 years:

In Spring 2007 we were in the Champs League final:

Stage 1 - Sell the club to 2 idiots
Stage 2 - Sack most successful manager in recent history
Stage 3 - Employ overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager
Stage 4 - Sack overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager rendering reasons for his employment pointless
Stage 5 - Employ fans favourite despite obvious and clear dangers
Stage 6 - Sack fans favourite prematurely without giving his plan a chance rendering reasons for his employment and spending pointless
Stage 7 - Sell half of squad and employ new young untried manager and then expect him to turn water in wine.

And we wonder why we are heading for upper middle table mediocrity.
No wonder Man United are pissing themselve laughing

It was a good move getting Kenny in but he needed time. Just like Brendan needs time.

Not all managers are going to be like Rafa and bring success pretty much straight away. Rafa is one in a hundred. We need to be patient.

Offline LondonRedMan

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #17 on: November 2, 2012, 10:55:36 am »
Good article mate.

Im hearing this morning theres ten million to spend in Jan.

I really, REALLY hope that isnt true otherwise our goosed is cooked. It will cause fallout from the top to bottom and the fans will lose patience.

10 millilion not bad. Could get a striker in for that and do some wheeling and dealing for toher positions to keep us tied over till the summer draft where I expect us to be really active

Offline dernaroy

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #18 on: November 2, 2012, 11:04:25 am »
I think we need to keep a bit of perspective in mind here. As far as priorities go, it is like this (below) which is how I believe it should be.

- Premier League
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Europa League
-
-
-
- Fa Cup
-
- League Cup


Add to that fact that we just don't have a decent second 11 to compete in these competitions then it was always likely we were going to exit at the early stages.
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #19 on: November 2, 2012, 11:44:07 am »
It was a good move getting Kenny in but he needed time. Just like Brendan needs time.

Not all managers are going to be like Rafa and bring success pretty much straight away. Rafa is one in a hundred. We need to be patient.

I agree. Really the point I was making was - if you employ someone and let them spend money and employ a philosophy why then sack them and make it even harder for the next person. Brendan is dealing with that fall out.
There were issues with what Kenny did and the players he bought but the way he went about it was not uncharacteristic. At Blackburn it was successful eventually but he was given time. The board having taken the risk should have stuck with him or not have appointed him at all.

Rogers task is almost impossible - its hard enough taking a team to top 4 with lots of cash but doing it with the approach that was employed at Swansea is being unreasonable. I rate the guy but I fear for him and the club because of how far and quickly we are falling.

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #20 on: November 2, 2012, 11:59:37 am »
10 millilion not bad. Could get a striker in for that and do some wheeling and dealing for toher positions to keep us tied over till the summer draft where I expect us to be really active

The Summer draft?

Is George Gillett back?

If we have only £10m to spend in January after what happened in the Summer - and with the problems we are currently facing - I think we'll be in deep trouble.
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Offline LondonRedMan

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #21 on: November 2, 2012, 12:23:23 pm »
The Summer draft?

Is George Gillett back?

If we have only £10m to spend in January after what happened in the Summer - and with the problems we are currently facing - I think we'll be in deep trouble.

think is, is it wise to spend cash during the winter draft when we know prices are over-inflated and our first chois targets will be unavailable as clubs don't want to lose players during the season etc.

I think FSG will be prudent and not want to commit too much in Jan. 
Financial prudency

Offline East of Anfield

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #22 on: November 2, 2012, 12:52:18 pm »
To me,if you want success, you got to have the right people at the top. At the moment,we only have ayre. Untill a better qualified person replaces him, will we see that transcend to the pitch.

Offline horne

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #23 on: November 2, 2012, 01:10:18 pm »
tell yer where im at....we are getting closer to weighing up where fsg are at as owners
if they deliver the stadium expansion....if they back brenno in the january and next summer window....they fight to live another day
If they dont improve the final third in january...questions need to be asked...the only caveat they have is that the jan window isnt the best value for money.....however i believe there is a bigger cost if they dont.
the summer of next year is the absolute test....the clock is ticking and the alarm is about to go off
i dont blame rodgers for any of this ....he doesnt hold the cheque book....
it will soon be time for them to shit...or get off the pan!
success = the absence of the fear of failure

Offline WTF?

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #24 on: November 2, 2012, 01:18:05 pm »
The depressing thing about the Swansea defeat was the fact that a team that was only promoted last season came and played us off the pitch.

Its not Rogers fault - the situation he faces is simply stage 7 in the Liverpool 'How to self destruct' in the space of 6 years:

In Spring 2007 we were in the Champs League final:

Stage 1 - Sell the club to 2 idiots
Stage 2 - Sack most successful manager in recent history
Stage 3 - Employ overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager
Stage 4 - Sack overrated journeyman flavour of the month manager rendering reasons for his employment pointless
Stage 5 - Employ fans favourite despite obvious and clear dangers
Stage 6 - Sack fans favourite prematurely without giving his plan a chance rendering reasons for his employment and spending pointless
Stage 7 - Sell half of squad and employ new young untried manager and then expect him to turn water in wine.

And we wonder why we are heading for upper middle table mediocrity.
No wonder Man United are pissing themselve laughing

To be honest, Stage 1 is the only important bit in there.

It's like the butterfly effect. If that hadn't happened, none of the other Stages would have taken place. Even though Moores is ultimately to blame for all of this, we would actually be in a far, far better place today if we were still owned by him.

Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #25 on: November 2, 2012, 01:53:06 pm »
To be honest, Stage 1 is the only important bit in there.

It's like the butterfly effect. If that hadn't happened, none of the other Stages would have taken place. Even though Moores is ultimately to blame for all of this, we would actually be in a far, far better place today if we were still owned by him.

A depressing but ultimately accurate assessment - 3 European finals in the space of 6 years says enough to me, and no matter what people think of Moores for selling the club, the current incumbents and their puppet Ayre make Moores and Coco look like seasoned professionals.

I'm prepared to give FSG the benefit of the doubt but I think that they have to give Brendan full 100% support to bring in the targets he wants in both January and next summer, otherwise serious questions will have to be asked of their status as fit and proper owners of a football club. League cup defeats will happen every other year, the FA Cup will come and go, it's just the nature of a knockout competition. When Brendan has such a thin squad as he has spoken of in recent days it's only inevitable that teams such as Swansea, who with all due respect aren't fighting to retain their place in the top 4, are going to upset the odds against a team who are in 4 competitions and have to rotate. But it shouldn't mean that a club such as Liverpool doesn't take the competition seriously, and for that Ian Ayre needs to be shamed for his comments.

If Brendan's ideas are going to bear fruit he needs time, but he also needs owners who will dip their hands in their pockets. It's all well and good blooding in youth and building for the future, but you can't afford to be left behind in the interim. When teams like the Bitters and Spuds can attract experienced and proven players like Jelavic and Dempsey ahead of us then someone other than Brendan needs to get an earful. Oh how I long for the days of Peter Robinson...

Offline Lucas21

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #26 on: November 2, 2012, 02:07:37 pm »
think is, is it wise to spend cash during the winter draft when we know prices are over-inflated and our first chois targets will be unavailable as clubs don't want to lose players during the season etc.

I think FSG will be prudent and not want to commit too much in Jan. 
Financial prudency

When did we sign Suarez/Agger etc? It's a myth that you can't buy quality in January

FSG fucked up on transfer deadlineday, fuck their prudence. Suarez won't be able to play every game. He should be rested for Capital One Cup games at the least. We need a serious injection up front.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2012, 02:09:13 pm by lucas21 »

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #27 on: November 2, 2012, 03:21:44 pm »
To be honest, Stage 1 is the only important bit in there.

It's like the butterfly effect. If that hadn't happened, none of the other Stages would have taken place. Even though Moores is ultimately to blame for all of this, we would actually be in a far, far better place today if we were still owned by him.

Up to a point yes but at each stage after we have the opportunity to make a good decision but still failed.
I get really angry because the top 4 is nowhere near as strong as it was 5 years ago. Indeed the 2009/10 side would probably get in it right now.
We have thrown away opportunities to capitalise on other teams being in transition and instead just kept making our own mistakes.

Slightly off topic but I pretty much predicted what was going to happen back in 2009:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=237420.msg5383695#msg5383695

Its hard to enjoy the club anymore because I have no faith that at the end of this season or next when Brendan only finishes upper mid table that people wont be asking him to be sacked.

Offline The Flying Pig

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #28 on: November 2, 2012, 05:51:40 pm »
A depressing but ultimately accurate assessment - 3 European finals in the space of 6 years says enough to me, and no matter what people think of Moores for selling the club, the current incumbents and their puppet Ayre make Moores and Coco look like seasoned professionals.

I'm prepared to give FSG the benefit of the doubt but I think that they have to give Brendan full 100% support to bring in the targets he wants in both January and next summer, otherwise serious questions will have to be asked of their status as fit and proper owners of a football club. League cup defeats will happen every other year, the FA Cup will come and go, it's just the nature of a knockout competition. When Brendan has such a thin squad as he has spoken of in recent days it's only inevitable that teams such as Swansea, who with all due respect aren't fighting to retain their place in the top 4, are going to upset the odds against a team who are in 4 competitions and have to rotate. But it shouldn't mean that a club such as Liverpool doesn't take the competition seriously, and for that Ian Ayre needs to be shamed for his comments.

If Brendan's ideas are going to bear fruit he needs time, but he also needs owners who will dip their hands in their pockets. It's all well and good blooding in youth and building for the future, but you can't afford to be left behind in the interim. When teams like the Bitters and Spuds can attract experienced and proven players like Jelavic and Dempsey ahead of us then someone other than Brendan needs to get an earful. Oh how I long for the days of Peter Robinson...

Oh,yes,I was going to say something similar (but not as good),you've done it for me,thanks.
Suddenly I turned around and she was standin' there
With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair
She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns
"Come in", She said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm."

I might be in!

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #29 on: November 3, 2012, 12:06:23 am »
We are in the business of winning trophies when did that become unimportant , surely even Ayre might consider cup winners sell more shirts. As for the OP good and I will never dismiss any competition there are only 3 real trophys to win in domestic football, we won one made the final for another and still this is deemed by the bean counters a failure!
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline jaffod

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #30 on: November 3, 2012, 12:29:44 am »
think is, is it wise to spend cash during the winter draft when we know prices are over-inflated and our first chois targets will be unavailable as clubs don't want to lose players during the season etc.

I think FSG will be prudent and not want to commit too much in Jan. 
Financial prudency

Not sure prudent is the word for it. Maybe they'll promise us a 'big summer' just like good old Tom Hicks did a few years back.
 One thing is for sure - if they only release £10 million I still expect us to be wallowing in the bottom half of the table in May with a few stay-behinds along the way.

Offline dane

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #31 on: November 3, 2012, 12:56:37 am »
Precisely what did Ayre say?

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #32 on: November 3, 2012, 01:08:05 am »


Comparisons are ultimately futile, and undeniably unhelpful. Unlike Dalglish, Rodgers has the Europa League to contend with; unlike Dalglish, who had striking options such as Dirk Kuyt, Craig Bellamy and Maxi Rodriguez in reserve,

And yet who disposed of them with no quality replacements?  This isn't directed at Rodgers, but more at the owners.  He's been left with a skeleton crew and is supposedly also trying to impose a new playing style.  It's a poor state of affairs and there's no positives on the horizon.

Offline TSC

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #33 on: November 3, 2012, 01:12:14 am »
Good article mate.

Im hearing this morning theres ten million to spend in Jan.

I really, REALLY hope that isnt true otherwise our goosed is cooked. It will cause fallout from the top to bottom and the fans will lose patience.

If this is in any way true then it's even much worse than envisaged.  Their paltry spend over the last few windows is reason enough why we are were we are. 

Why do we always end up with a bunch of skint yanks eh.

Offline TSC

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #34 on: November 3, 2012, 01:18:21 am »
We are in the business of winning trophies when did that become unimportant , surely even Ayre might consider cup winners sell more shirts. As for the OP good and I will never dismiss any competition there are only 3 real trophys to win in domestic football, we won one made the final for another and still this is deemed by the bean counters a failure!

Ayre's a cnut.  As has been peddled before some believe KD was sacked cos of league form, others reckon it was cos of Suarez and pressure put on the owners by the sponsors.  I know which camp I'm in.

Anyway, time to concentrate on our esteemed owners, who've cut the squad and the wages to the bare minimum.  And now posts alluding to the fact they're releasing £10m to spend in the next window, which to be fair to them is consistent with what they've spent each window to date.

If that's true then just sell up, cos you're only taking us down & embarrassing us all as well as yourselves.

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #35 on: November 3, 2012, 03:03:28 am »
I fear for Brendan to be honest. If the league form continues, exit from cups will take its toll.

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #36 on: November 3, 2012, 05:34:33 pm »
The worry in all this is that Liverpool approached Swansea to take the manager who had appeared the have them playing in the way that Liverpool wanted to play. That they are still playing that way now he has gone (and possibly before he arrived for all I know) has the ability to place doubt on his role in making Swansea what they were/are.  When a good manager leaves a club there is often a gap, if there is no change in the quality of Swansea then that does have the potential to create doubt. Sensible people will look above that but there are very few sensible people about.
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline Arthurs Bar

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #37 on: November 6, 2012, 10:23:13 pm »
I fear for Brendan to be honest. If the league form continues, exit from cups will take its toll.



The combination of the clubs philosophy of patience, a new system of play, getting a lot of young players involved, appointing a manager with one season of premier league experience doesn't sit right with me. That all changing attitude has come about far to quickly and it will take years to get somewhat right. Rogers taken over an 8th place team that I believe would have improved if we got someone who could add 10-15 goals. Was fourth a possibility with that, I think so. Champions league qualification the prize within our grasp.

Rogers has scrapped all that for his vision. A one year premier league manager's vision who's teams' chances of getting into the top half of mid table looks omnious. Champions league impossible. It's the modern era and no one gets time and if Rogers maintains his point per game average by January, Anfield will change for the worse. With that thought, these owners might imply the manager has time but does anyone really believe that? These are businessmen, American businessmen at that with sponsors to impress and if you lose them and the crowd then the writing is on the wall. Ayre will lurke and calls from Boston will increase by the shedload. Its noble what Rogers intends but the naivety overwhelms it.

Too many changes to soon and it will hurt us. Ayre and the owners are 100% culpable for that.

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Re: Words of summer haunt Liverpool on Halloween
« Reply #38 on: November 8, 2012, 12:42:59 am »
I think we need to keep a bit of perspective in mind here. As far as priorities go, it is like this (below) which is how I believe it should be.

- Premier League
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Europa League
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-
-
- Fa Cup
-
- League Cup


Add to that fact that we just don't have a decent second 11 to compete in these competitions then it was always likely we were going to exit at the early stages.

I know this is how the like of Spurs would view it. But I dont think it's the best philosophy for us. Lets be honest, were not a very good team and we've got fuck all chance of getting in the top 4. So what would you rather Finish 6th in the league, or finish 8th or 9th in the league and win a cup.  How is finishing 6th so much better than 8th.  Baffles me
« Last Edit: November 8, 2012, 12:46:27 am by Kennys Jacket »
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.