Author Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.  (Read 34339 times)

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #440 on: May 18, 2009, 08:54:20 am »

By the way, if we win our last game, that will give us 25 wins for the season.  That will be our joint highest since we won 26 games (out of 40) in 1988.  In other words, we'll have a better win per game ratio than we had even in 1988.  Most people would agree that 1987/88 season was one of the most attractive, attacking sides that we've ever had.


So whose record would Rafa be equalling if we do win our final game?  Which cavalier, attack-first-ask-questions-later manager was in charge on the ONLY time we have ever previously won 25 out of 38?

That would be Rafa Benitez in the 2005/06 season.



Offline LFCfan4Life

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #441 on: May 18, 2009, 10:54:27 am »
Oh, and by the way, 19 wins and 19 losses is 57 points (approx 7th in the league), whereas 38 draws is 38 points (approx 4th from bottom).  Which of these is something which might happen in real life?   It's just about conceivable that a team (maybe Man C or Spurs) might be so inconsistent to have 19 wins and 19 losses. 

you forgot 19 wins and 19 draws is 76 points which is enough to come 4th comfortably

obviously like you said in the other posts its all about non wins you can only drop points in about 11 games to end up champions. 27 wins 11 draws gives you 92 points and enough to win the league even this season
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Offline Callaghan.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #442 on: May 18, 2009, 12:09:40 pm »
I've never liked the 3-point system. I don't see why a win and a defeat gets more points than 2 draws. Load of bollocks - all part of the plan to tackle Liverpool's 70s and 80s dominance. But I can't say that because it sounds like sour grapes. And while I'm at it, the Premier League trophy is an abomination. It looks like it's designed for Man Utd. Tacky, gaudy, terrible. When we get our hands on it I think we should campaign to get the old trophy reinstated. If Shankly, was manager he'd probably grab the modern monstrosity out of Gerrard's hands and throw it into the Kop. Sorry for the off-topic rant!

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #443 on: May 18, 2009, 12:53:31 pm »
I've never liked the 3-point system. I don't see why a win and a defeat gets more points than 2 draws. Load of bollocks - all part of the plan to tackle Liverpool's 70s and 80s dominance. But I can't say that because it sounds like sour grapes.

It doesn't sound like sour grapes, but it does sound like paranoia.

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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #444 on: May 18, 2009, 12:57:48 pm »
By the way, if we win our last game, that will give us 25 wins for the season.  That will be our joint highest since we won 26 games (out of 40) in 1988.  In other words, we'll have a better win per game ratio than we had even in 1988.  Most people would agree that 1987/88 season was one of the most attractive, attacking sides that we've ever had.


So whose record would Rafa be equalling if we do win our final game?  Which cavalier, attack-first-ask-questions-later manager was in charge on the ONLY time we have ever previously won 25 out of 38?

That would be Rafa Benitez in the 2005/06 season.

I think (without checking) that no team has won the premiership in the last 5 years winning fewer than 26 games.
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Offline Callaghan.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #445 on: May 18, 2009, 01:38:57 pm »
It doesn't sound like sour grapes, but it does sound like paranoia.


Yeah, you're probably right. You should hear all my views on it though!

Let me change what I wrote - and remove the paranoia about forces conspiring against us - to just:

"I've never liked the 3-point system. I don't see why a win and a defeat gets more points than 2 draws" .

Am I in the minority?

[I'm not saying that because of this season's position, btw.

But, it's true that we'd only be 1 point (instead of 4) behind Man Utd under the old system (which worked fine for a hundred years or so) - and our position in relation to Chelsea would be unchanged (i.e. 2 points ahead of them instead of 3).]

Offline Tom Illi

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #446 on: May 18, 2009, 01:44:03 pm »



"I've never liked the 3-point system. I don't see why a win and a defeat gets more points than 2 draws" .


Assume it's to encourage teams to go for wins particularly away from home? Instead of winning at home, drawing away as used to be the done thing. Suppose that you get situations where teams sit on a 1-0 lead though, so doubt there's much difference either way.

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #447 on: May 18, 2009, 02:23:11 pm »
Yeah, you're probably right. You should hear all my views on it though!

Let me change what I wrote - and remove the paranoia about forces conspiring against us - to just:

"I've never liked the 3-point system. I don't see why a win and a defeat gets more points than 2 draws" .

Am I in the minority?

[I'm not saying that because of this season's position, btw.

But, it's true that we'd only be 1 point (instead of 4) behind Man Utd under the old system (which worked fine for a hundred years or so) - and our position in relation to Chelsea would be unchanged (i.e. 2 points ahead of them instead of 3).]


It had a wonderful effect on football across the globe when it was first brought in. The clubs to suffer were the cynical and boring ones like Leeds United who used to grind out 30 draws a season.
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Offline Crackerjack Sam

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #448 on: May 18, 2009, 02:31:24 pm »
Just hope for next season that we take every team against to the sword. Our style of play only changed in the latter half of the season and I hope from this we can acquire new quality players, who can adapt to the system and help us obtain no.19 for next season.
I can't wait for the summer transfers and the pre season friendlies. Next season we'll be the most feared club in the land.
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #449 on: May 19, 2009, 06:50:08 am »
I think (without checking) that no team has won the Premier League in the last 5 years winning fewer than 26 games.

Correct.  And I think that we can be certain that 25 wins would not be enough next season either.

But are you saying that Rafa doesnt know that?

Of course, he knows how many wins are likely to be needed.  And of course he's striving to win as many games as possible.

Quite rightly, he believes that creating a team which is hard to beat is an essential step on the road to creating a winning team.

He doesnt go along with the idea which has popped up in the last few months (and which is plain daft, imho) that if we lose more games we will therefore win more games.  (See Newcastle 1996, who won 24 games. the same number we have won so far this year).

Nor does he think that throwing on 4 forwards, win or bust, will necessarily be a successful policy in the league. (Didnt do McClaren much good).


What will help us win more games is if we fans play our part.  LFC had a fantastic home record in 2005/06.  We really over-performed.  Why?  IMHO, mainly because we had the best atmosphere for a couple of years beforehand, and certainly better than we have had since.  The 5th European Cup was a perfect catalyst for producing more noise, and the team responded.

If Rafa's team gets given anything like the support that Shanks's, Paisley's and Dalglish's had, then we're capable of winning 16 home games.

But the this season, the home crowd's negative attitude has cost us a lot more points than Rafa's (so-called) negative attitude.

 

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #450 on: May 19, 2009, 06:58:26 am »
We didn't win the games we should have because we had no idea how to when facing teams which parked a bus in front of the goal at Anfield, especially at Anfield. Without Gerrard and Torres present, there was no avenue to break the deadlock. But, as the season progress, our attack became more fluid and we were scoring more, hence the most number of goals scored

Offline MagicB8all

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #451 on: May 19, 2009, 07:10:43 am »
We didn't win the games we should have because we had no idea how to when facing teams which parked a bus in front of the goal at Anfield, especially at Anfield. Without Gerrard and Torres present, there was no avenue to break the deadlock. But, as the season progress, our attack became more fluid and we were scoring more, hence the most number of goals scored
this is true, but we won against STOKE ( yeah I know, let it go).  When we have Torres, Gerrard  AND Xabi our attack is very fluid and devastating against any team that comes to play.  What we're lacking is the ability to get that first goal against a packed defense and force them to come out and play.

I would suggest we work on our set pieces as  even teams like Villa get about 8 goals a season from set pieces.  Also VERY good back up to Torres AND Gerrard would be good too.
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #452 on: May 19, 2009, 07:24:33 am »

Without Gerrard and Torres present, there was no avenue to break the deadlock. But, as the season progress, our attack became more fluid and we were scoring more, hence the most number of goals scored

We got rid of Keane, and we improved our scoring record.

This is what I'm saying.  ie it's wrong to call Rafa negative just because we dont pile lots of forwards onto the pitch at the same time.  There's better ways of scoring goals than that.  And if you look at our records for (a) late goals (say 80 plus minutes) and (b) goals scored/created by subs, then they disprove the theory that we play for a draw when the scores are level as the final whistle approaches.



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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #453 on: May 19, 2009, 07:34:38 am »
We got rid of Keane, and we improved our scoring record.

This is what I'm saying.  ie it's wrong to call Rafa negative just because we dont pile lots of forwards onto the pitch at the same time.  There's better ways of scoring goals than that.  And if you look at our records for (a) late goals (say 80 plus minutes) and (b) goals scored/created by subs, then they disprove the theory that we play for a draw when the scores are level as the final whistle approaches.



I also thought that after midway through the season, the team finally understood Rafa's footballing philosophy. That's quite evident in players like Yossi. In the past, we as spectators used to cringe when we saw all the back passing and passing among the defenders. It was done for a reason and that was to change the shape of our opponent's defence. Wasn't pretty to look at but it became very effective later

Offline Gee, Stevie

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #454 on: May 19, 2009, 08:23:22 am »
For me, that shows JUST how important that disallowed Gerrard goal was. That Stoke game will have given teams like Fulham, West Ham, Hull City, Everton, Wigan, Man City et al huge confidence that they CAN get a result out of us at Anfield. If that goal had have stood I'm not being funny but I think we'd almost certainly have battered Stoke 3 or 4 nil easy, just as the Mancs did when not playing particularly well (think they won 5-0). Not only that, I think it gave our own players a lack of self belief at home initially. We appeared to be playing within ourselves so often when teams came to Anfield and didn't "go at us". I remember the Hull game and saying to the fella next to me that if they hadn't have scored the game would probably have ended up 0-0. As soon as we got level again it was the same mentality that we'd had for much of the early part of the season.

Ah well. Next season eh?

Sorry to bring you up on this mate, but it if you're saying the events of that game were so important, what is important is that we failed to score from the remaining 87 or so minutes of that game after Gerrard's goal was disallowed.

We were unlucky to have that goal disallowed, but not unlucky to draw.  We weren't good enough that day to score, simple as that.  No one else's fault.  Losers point the blame.

It wasn't a bad refereeing decision that had an influence on the players' self-belief.

Blaming referees is seriously childish.

Offline Vinay

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #455 on: May 19, 2009, 10:36:24 am »
The way I see it, the above statement is true in games against the trio of immediate rivals.

However, in other games, especially against the bottom half of the current table, surely it is worth going all out and 2 Wins + 2 Defeats is a better combination than 4 Draws, innit?

Offline GBF

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #456 on: May 19, 2009, 10:40:07 am »
The way I see it, the above statement is true in games against the trio of immediate rivals.

However, in other games, especially against the bottom half of the current table, surely it is worth going all out and 2 Wins + 2 Defeats is a better combination than 4 Draws, innit?

But you also run into the danger of lowering the confidence of the team if you have 2wins + 2 defeats compared to 4 draws.

I think Rafa prefer "not to lose" in order to preserve the team moral. 


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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #457 on: May 19, 2009, 11:56:14 am »
I know its a bit of a cliche, but I think all we need is one more "match-winner", i.e. a Silva, Diego or Tevez to do something brilliant to create or score a goal when we need one badly (see Manchester United Dec/Jan/Feb)
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #458 on: May 19, 2009, 07:26:00 pm »
Sorry to bring you up on this mate, but it if you're saying the events of that game were so important, what is important is that we failed to score from the remaining 87 or so minutes of that game after Gerrard's goal was disallowed.

We were unlucky to have that goal disallowed, but not unlucky to draw.  We weren't good enough that day to score, simple as that.  No one else's fault.  Losers point the blame.

It wasn't a bad refereeing decision that had an influence on the players' self-belief.

Blaming referees is seriously childish.

Yup, you're right, we did have another 87 minutes to score in and didn't, but as you frequently see, if a team is at home playing a team they SHOULD beat, the crowd gets on their backs, the anxiousness rubs off to the players and they are less likely to score in some instances. I believe this was one of them, but it was "one of those days" too. We should have beaten Stoke, but we created MORE than enough clear cut chances to have done it anyway. Sorenson was outstanding for Stoke, and they deserved credit for coming away with a point but we scored a legitimate goal that would have won us the game and were denied a win. Now in the long run, who knows how the league would have panned out? Would Man United have been as blase as they were when they played us at Old Trafford and subsequently got BATTERED if they hadn't been able to lose and still win the league? Would West Ham and Fulham et al have been unable to get those draws at Anfield? Who knows. Sunderland parked the bus at Old Trafford and almost, ALMOST got away with it but lost out at the last minute. Christ, even Middlesbrough only lost 1-0 there thanks to a Berbatov goal, but we were fortunate to beat them ourselves.

We've come close, bloody close this season and I honestly feel that we've been the better team to them this season, as many neutrals have too, and the fact that you can pinpoint this decision here and that decision there as instances why we've lost out on the league over a 38 game season is a rare thing indeed. I just hope that the players don't look at the situation and think "we've beaten them twice, only lost twice, and STILL we've not won the title - what more can we do?" and instead come back and aim for perfection because aiming for that is how we're going to win this title.

Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #459 on: May 19, 2009, 10:12:06 pm »
Correct.  And I think that we can be certain that 25 wins would not be enough next season either.

But are you saying that Rafa doesnt know that?

Of course, he knows how many wins are likely to be needed.  And of course he's striving to win as many games as possible.

Quite rightly, he believes that creating a team which is hard to beat is an essential step on the road to creating a winning team.

He doesnt go along with the idea which has popped up in the last few months (and which is plain daft, imho) that if we lose more games we will therefore win more games.  (See Newcastle 1996, who won 24 games. the same number we have won so far this year).

Nor does he think that throwing on 4 forwards, win or bust, will necessarily be a successful policy in the league. (Didnt do McClaren much good).


What will help us win more games is if we fans play our part.  LFC had a fantastic home record in 2005/06.  We really over-performed.  Why?  IMHO, mainly because we had the best atmosphere for a couple of years beforehand, and certainly better than we have had since.  The 5th European Cup was a perfect catalyst for producing more noise, and the team responded.

If Rafa's team gets given anything like the support that Shanks's, Paisley's and Dalglish's had, then we're capable of winning 16 home games.

But the this season, the home crowd's negative attitude has cost us a lot more points than Rafa's (so-called) negative attitude.
 

Actually that's what I'm saying. I'm saying Rafa has been slow to learn that to win the Premier League you need to win more games and that accounts for why he doesn't, or hasn't 'thrown the sink' at teams when we have needed to win games. For two seasons running we have drawn 7 games at home and we have done that because we have struggled to break stubborn defences down, we have sat back after scoring the first goal and been caught with equalisers and we have not taken enough chances to turn draws into victories. You cannot deny the way we have played in the last 7 games of the season has been completely different from how we played earlier in the season. We have played with a much higher tempo, pushed more men forward and pressed on after the first goal to score a 2nd and a 3rd. Read what I wrote earlier about the Arsenal game and Reinna going up for a corner at the end. When have you ever seen that before? We did it because it was a MUST WIN game but wasn't Stoke, Hull, Fulham, West Ham et al? To win the league they ought to have been and had we taken the same approach in those games do you think we might have picked up more points? So why didnt we take such chances in those games to win them?

Rafa has learned now in my view that we have to win more games to win the league and hopefully he has learned that when we do push on we can actually do that.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:57:08 pm by Shanks1965 »
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #460 on: May 19, 2009, 10:40:51 pm »
The hull game was systematic of our season in many ways. A bit of misfortune and sloppy defending for their first two, and then a blitkreig from us to get it back to 2-2 and then after half time a more measured controlled game where we didnt create as much as we did when we bombarded them for 20 minutes before half time.




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Offline Alan_X

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #461 on: May 19, 2009, 10:56:25 pm »
Actually that's what I'm saying. I'm saying Rafa has been slow to learn that to win the Premier League you need to win more games and that accounts for why he doesn't, or hasn't 'thrown the sink' at teams when we have needed to win games.


Did you read what you just wrote? You honestly believe that Rafa has taken five years to work out that you need more points than the other top four to win the league? He was just tootling along during the season thinking everything was fine and dandy then being gobsmacked at the end of the season when we were third in the table... it's lazy tabloid nonsense to assume that Rafa doesn't know what it takes to win the league.

Maybe you're right, maybe if Baros and Cisse, Biscan, Kewell and the rest had just thrown the kitchen sink at teams we'd have won the league in 05... or maybe it's that he's taken 5 years to clear out the dead wood and now has a squad that are at least good enough to challenge and who are all playing to the same system. Maybe the fact that Gerrard has become a much more intelligent player under Benitez, has something to do with it...

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #462 on: May 19, 2009, 10:59:48 pm »
Read what I wrote earlier about the Arsenal game and Reinna going up for a corner at the end. When have you ever seen that before? We did it because it was a MUST WIN game but wasn't Stoke, Hull, Fulham, West Ham et al?


We drew with Arsenal and one of their goals came from a Walcott breakaway from one of our corners. It was a great spectacle but a more controlled defensive performance would probably have won the game and the league would have at least gone to the final day.
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #463 on: May 20, 2009, 01:13:05 am »
Rafa has learned now in my view that we have to win more games to win the league and hopefully he has learned that when we do push on we can actually do that.

Sorry, mate.  You seem to be saying that you understand the requirements better than Rafa.  Dont you think that he spends a helluva lot more time thinking about this than you do?  And if you've worked it out, then dont you think he has?

Especially since it aint rocket science.  There's never been a season (since 3 points for a win) that the champion has not had the most, or joint most, wins.

And here's how bad Rafa is at winning ...


LFC'S BEST WINS PER GAME SINCE 3 POINTS FOR A WIN

0.66  2005/06  Benitez 

0.65  1987/88  Dalglish

0.63  2008/09  Benitez    (assuming we dont win our last game; 0.66 if we do)
0.63  2001/02  Houllier/Thompson

0.62  1985/86  Dalglish
0.62  1981/82  Paisley

0.61  1990/91  Dalglish/Moran/Souness
0.61  1989/90  Dalglish


So after Sunday, at worst Rafa will have 2 of the best 4.  At best, he will have the top 2 slots.

He needs to improve a bit more.  But it's unfair to imply that he hasnt got a good record of winning.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 01:17:20 am by Jack Slater »

Offline 3rdStone

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #464 on: May 20, 2009, 03:19:16 am »
I find it sadly funny that people think Rafa somehow learned from his mistakes in the latter half of the season. Shite finishing and the odd off form performance explain more bad results than not. In some we played teams off the park and they stole a point late.

If you can only point to a few matches over 9 months then I'm not sure I can agree with you. Ever stop to think the team started playing better together over time without Torres then he came back and it made us even stronger?

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #465 on: May 20, 2009, 03:30:31 am »
IMO, it took a while for the team to gel and understand Rafa's methods. It's not easy sometimes when the manager wants you to be only in a specific area on the pitch.

Offline ARI

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #466 on: May 20, 2009, 04:51:36 am »
1)One can argue that Rafa may not understand what it takes to win the the league in his first one or 2 years but not after 5.

2) Our unfortunate over reliance on the group of players who've been here prior to the previous summer meant that the squad was familiar with Rafa's methods as proven by our 2nd half performance in 07/08 season.

3) I truly believe many of us underestimate how much impact uncertainties regarding Rafa's contract AND those of the staff and players had on team morale and confidence and hence results. The previous season we had to deal with the Yanks trying to oust Rafa at almost the same period we had to deal with his contract uncertainties this season. Look at Everton's performance after Moyes' contract was sorted. For that matter look at the Heathens' performace when Fungus wanted to resign. Wolfsburg this season was sailing but once Magath announced he was leaving for more money they lost 1-5 to Stuttgart. These are more than coincidences. Look at Chelsea. Look at Kuyt when his dad died.

4) My admiration for Rafa knows no bounds considering what he has had to put up with and done for the team. The main reason being  for anyone to thrive at the highest level of one's profession one must possess immense mental strength to handle the pressure from friends, foes and fans alike. And Rafa is one tough cookie. But he is only human and and so are the rest of the squad. At the highest level of sports, any sports, when the mind goes you're a dead duck. And I can't believe Rafa and the team was not affected by what happened, regardless of what Carra says about it not affecting him. The fact that the pundits and journos have hardly acknowledged this fact when assessing the team and Rafa is a sad indictment of their poor grasp and knowledge of what it takes to build, achieve and maintain success. Yet we only lost TWO league games all season despite all the unwanted intrusions.

5) Of course there were also other reasons that may have affected our performances but to just lay the blame on the playing side of things is lazy and over-simplistic.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 04:57:55 am by ARI »

Offline keyo

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #467 on: May 20, 2009, 05:29:57 am »
I find it sadly funny that people think Rafa somehow learned from his mistakes in the latter half of the season. Shite finishing and the odd off form performance explain more bad results than not. In some we played teams off the park and they stole a point late.

If you can only point to a few matches over 9 months then I'm not sure I can agree with you. Ever stop to think the team started playing better together over time without Torres then he came back and it made us even stronger?

by jove i think you're on to something!!!

there is a lot of nonsense in this thread.........you set up to win each game, but use different approaches for each game to achieve that win (horses for courses and all that).......you certainly do not want to lose to your rivals and therefore an approach that guarantees a draw with a reduced chance of winning is sometimes seen (Chelsea away for instance)......all other games, i have no doubt the plan is to win the game not to "not lose"........and you have a fuck of alot better chance if you do not concede a goal on the first place

"throw the kitchen sink at them" was the cry.......hmmm, what exactly do you want, gung-ho approach from beginning, forget about your strengths and just assume that be everyone piling forward we are bound to score.........people talk about benitez taking time to "learn how to win the premier league" but what does this mean?  does it mean he hasn't learnt that the way to beat stoke is to change your style of play and throw the ball up into the box more often, and get loads of men in there?  or does it mean teaching your players to put one of the 23 shots that you had during the game into the back of the net?

benitez has a style of play that requires good ball retention, change of pace and creation of space for attacking players to play.........we have been good for the majority of the season, after a disjointed start, with the exception of a dodgy spell in february which ended with the defeat to boro - our worst performance and result of the season.......but we have developed the way it is clear you would expect a team from benitez to develop......we have become a solid stable unit at the back (despite the dodgyness that came in to pass the last month or so) our midfield controls the possession of the ball and the pace of the game........and our forwards, although working back regularly, appear to have now developed the level of movement required to make use of the solid base formed by the defence and midfield

it appears to me, that as the season has gone on, our ability to turn good possession/performances into good results has improved........and this has been the key, not tactics and not just form

we need to continue to develop, cos regardless of this years improvement we are still not top dog, and each of our rivals is likely to improve, so to reach our goal we need to improve on this year and then some...........and if our form of the last 2 months is anything to go by, there is much to be hopeful and optimistic about
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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #468 on: May 20, 2009, 07:22:00 pm »
Sorry, mate.  You seem to be saying that you understand the requirements better than Rafa.  Don't you think that he spends a helluva lot more time thinking about this than you do?  And if you've worked it out, then dont you think he has?

Especially since it aint rocket science.  There's never been a season (since 3 points for a win) that the champion has not had the most, or joint most, wins.

And here's how bad Rafa is at winning ...


LFC'S BEST WINS PER GAME SINCE 3 POINTS FOR A WIN

0.66  2005/06  Benitez 

0.65  1987/88  Dalglish

0.63  2008/09  Benitez    (assuming we dont win our last game; 0.66 if we do)
0.63  2001/02  Houllier/Thompson

0.62  1985/86  Dalglish
0.62  1981/82  Paisley

0.61  1990/91  Dalglish/Moran/Souness
0.61  1989/90  Dalglish


So after Sunday, at worst Rafa will have 2 of the best 4.  At best, he will have the top 2 slots.

He needs to improve a bit more.  But it's unfair to imply that he hasn't got a good record of winning.


Mate, I'm not suggesting that or anything of the sort. For the record I think Rafa has done a great job. You're comparison with previous managers however is pretty irrelevant. The only thing that matters is comparison with the team that won the league isn't it? Winning more games than Sir Bob did or Kenny might have done won't win us the Premier League next year will it? Our points total this season (if it's 86) would have been more than enough to win the league 7 times (I think) since the Premier League began but Chelsea raised the bar a few years ago and United responded to that to the point that 86 points is now not enough. To get more than 86 next season we either have to avoid losing (not realistic) or turn some of the draws into wins and to do that (in my opinion) we have to play like we have in the last 7 games from the start. We do have to throw the sink at teams like Stoke and Fulham and West Ham and Hull when we're not winning and time is running out so that we get the extra points. That's all I'm saying.

Had we done that earlier in the season I'm convinced that we would have won some (a majority) of those games but we didn't, not to the same extent that we have in the last few weeks. Is it any surprise that our goal tally was massively increased since we started to treat every game as must win games? I want to see us playing at home to sides like Stoke early in the season when it's 0-0 with 10 minutes to go, like we did in the last 10 minutes at Pompey and Fulham when we did just about everything humanly possible to get the winner.

The league isn't won before Easter but as we've seen this season it can be lost then.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:30:03 pm by Shanks1965 »
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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #469 on: May 20, 2009, 07:27:23 pm »

We drew with Arsenal and one of their goals came from a Walcott breakaway from one of our corners. It was a great spectacle but a more controlled defensive performance would probably have won the game and the league would have at least gone to the final day.
You could be right but I'd argue that on balance, if you take those chances on a regular basis you will win more games than you lose. Not every team is as good as Arsenal at counter attack. Let's face it. Fergusson has done it for years and made an art form out of scoring late goals to win games. This year we have done more of that than ever before in recent times. All I'm saying is we have to be prepared to do it earlier in the season when the 3pts are just as valuable as they are in the last few weeks of the season. You may not agree with me but I believe we have played differently (with tempo and urgency and with pushing men forward) in the last few weeks because we HAD to win those games. I'd argue that to win the league we HAD to win the majority of those home draws too but we didn't play with the same desire earlier in the season.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #470 on: May 20, 2009, 10:33:06 pm »
You could be right but I'd argue that on balance, if you take those chances on a regular basis you will win more games than you lose. Not every team is as good as Arsenal at counter attack. Let's face it. Fergusson has done it for years and made an art form out of scoring late goals to win games. This year we have done more of that than ever before in recent times. All I'm saying is we have to be prepared to do it earlier in the season when the 3pts are just as valuable as they are in the last few weeks of the season. You may not agree with me but I believe we have played differently (with tempo and urgency and with pushing men forward) in the last few weeks because we HAD to win those games. I'd argue that to win the league we HAD to win the majority of those home draws too but we didn't play with the same desire earlier in the season.

I agree with that. We conceded a breakaway goal v Arsenal at home because a draw wasn't quite good enough and we were pushing for the three points.

The real failure against the Arse was at Ashburton Grove where we didn't push on for a victory against 10 men.
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Offline SMD

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #471 on: May 21, 2009, 08:34:47 am »
Uh, didn't most of our last minute wins come at the beginning of the season?
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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #472 on: November 14, 2010, 01:07:29 pm »
Frying pan and fire anyone?

More like frying pan and firey cauldron I'd say.
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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #473 on: November 14, 2010, 02:38:41 pm »
I remember this thread well. I thought of it when I read this...

I have often said that you should, whether you are going for the league or fighting for a mid-table finish, go for 3 points every game. I mean, for instance, 6 draws equals 2 wins and 4 losses. In other words isn't it worth trying to win every game, even if it meant a couple of more defeats? On the other hand it might be devestating...  :-\

But the thread title will be a little misleading to many. Maybe worth an edit?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 04:17:21 pm by Callaghan. »

Offline fowler9_god

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Re: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.
« Reply #474 on: November 14, 2010, 04:09:06 pm »
Depressing read now. We were very close.
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