Topic: How do we adjust without Mane?

[Bolrick]

But without mane......the front 3 of coutinho, firmino and Lallana is not working.

You put origi or Sturridge upfront with coutinho and firmino...and it still doesn't work.

So what do you propose ?

Firmino is really good against top teams...... teams who have a go at us. But when teams sit back....we need a plan b. And that means...sometimes dropping your top striker so that the rest of the team benefits.

Moving Lallana out of midfield is screwing up the team dynamics. The quicker klopp puts him back there and sorts out the front three (by putting players with pace there)...the better.

[killer-heels]

But without mane......the front 3 of coutinho, firmino and Lallana is not working.

You put origi or Sturridge upfront with coutinho and firmino...and it still doesn't work.

So what do you propose ?

Firmino is really good against top teams...... teams who have a go at us. But when teams sit back....we need a plan b.

He scored 2 goals yesterday. 2 brilliant goals.

[Bolrick]

He scored 2 goals yesterday. 2 brilliant goals.

I know....

What I am proposing is that....without mane, firmino upfront will not benefit the team (especially when the opposition sits back). We need a different approach.

[newterp]

Easy......

1)Drop Firmino

2)Play Sturridge, Origi and Coutinho up front

3)Go back to Gini, Hendo and Lallana combo in midfield...

Its not rocket science....

Hahaha drop Firmino. It's not rocket science indeed.

[Bolrick]

Hahaha drop Firmino. It's not rocket science indeed.

Again...I reiterate. Firmino is the best complete striker we have. I am extremely happy to have him playing for my team. Yes, he scored 2 goals.....

What I am proposing is that....when we don't have mane stretching teams apart to give firmino enough space to do his thing, it might not be all that bad to think of setting up the team differently (especially when playing against teams who defend deep against us).

It is obvious that neither Sturridge or Origi can do a job on the right like how mane does. So why don't we just drop firmino against "weaker teams" and go with a front 3 of stu, origi and coutinho ?

Anyway..... the priority for this team is to move Lallana into a midfield 3. That is a must. That gives the whole team balance. The sooner we do that....the faster we go on another run.

[Johns_Barn]

Would Moreno be a solution in term of pinning the opposition back ?

[JCB]

Why not just replace Mane with like for like.... Sheyji Ojo.

He may not be at full potential or up to Mane's current caliber but playing him in Mane's absence would enable us to play the same team tactics as we did in the first half of the season.

I think there's a 50/50 chance that he would shine at this stage of his development and the team as a whole would benefit from having every other player play in their most effective position/setup.

Teams at the moment just play a compact, rigid, disciplined formation in the box against us, sometimes when this happens you need to disrupt it and break the lines up a bit by going to the byline at pace and around them. Our fullbacks just aren't doing enough of that effectively at the moment. Mane does this when he's around but in his absence I can only see Ojo providing the same level of pace and threat in our squad .

Edit: Actually Origi also has the skills and attributes to do this but it just doesn't seem to be working with him.

[.G]

Firmino does loads of work off the ball, tracking back etc.  His work rate is vital, dropping him would be madness, especially for his polar opposite in Sturridge who does hardly any work for the team off the ball.

We need to get back to the team and shape that got us where we are, Firmino up top, Coutinho on the left, Whoever you like on the right until Mane is back and Lallana, Gini and Hendo in the middle. I'd be signing some players though. Can't believe there isn't a signal player anywhere in the world, that we can get and that would improve us. Not one!

[SerbianScouser]

Can't believe there isn't a signal player anywhere in the world, that we can get and that would improve us. Not one!

It's January , that's why it is possible.

[Klippity Klopp]

If we want to go like for like - I agree Ojo is probably our best option.

I have suggested playing a diamond, as it for me is the formation that suits Sturridge the best.  However, I'm not sure at home it is the best approach to go, as everything could get a little narrow.  The diamond also didn't work terribly well the other week when used vs Man U, however I think that was more the players playing poorly that day than the formation being at fault.

Whatever formation we choose, I think Lallana has to be deeper.  He was a key part in us doing well at the beginning of the season and him looking like a different player to the one we had previously seen at the club, by playing in midfield.  He can be a play maker in that role and Wijnaldum and Can, for all their strengths without the ball can't offer what Lallana (or Coutinho when he's used in midfield) can.  I believe it makes a big difference.

What I don't like is seeing us play one of Lallana, Sturridge, Origi or Firmino wide in the front three.  None of these players suit that role, for different reasons.

If we were going to buy, then surely we do it it earlier as Mane has already missed a few games.  So that's not really an option anymore IMO.

[Djimi Smicer34]

Play a natural wide player out wide and move Lallana back to where he's been so effective for us this season in the middle of the park. 

We're supposedly against letting players like Ojo go out on loan this month because Klopp thinks they have a part to play this season; if that time isn't now, when Mane isn't available, then I struggle to see when else it's going to come. 

The midfield has to change in some way, the Henderson/Wijnaldum/Can combination just doesn't work and is detrimental to how we play.  Shift arguably our best player this season in Lallana back to his best position and get some pace into the team.

[nico 8]

I know....

What I am proposing is that....without mane, firmino upfront will not benefit the team (especially when the opposition sits back). We need a different approach.

Disagree. When teams defend deep, you want to drop Firmino with someone with pace. Our biggest problem is lack of movement and someone who can take people on. Who would you propose?

[Klippity Klopp]

Our biggest problem is lack of movement and someone who can take people on.

Agree with this. 

Especially the lack of movement.  Firmino was a rose amongst thorns in that regard yesterday.

[Zlen]

If we lost a game at home to a dead bottom team of the league just because we missed one single player then there's no helping us.

We didn't just lose it because we missed one single player, we lost it because we miss one single quality without Mane - pace with purpose.
Without him it simply does not exist in our play and the results have predictably suffered. Klopp and Liverpool Football Club chose to ignore the issue and carry on as if nothing is going on, which is their prerogative - but let's at least stop pretending that nothing could have been done. We could have done a lot - we did nothing, it is what it is - let's carry on and enjoy the rest of the season.

[nico 8]

Agree with this. 

Especially the lack of movement.  Firmino was a rose amongst thorns in that regard yesterday.

In addition, not only should our passing be a lot more crispy I do think we need to get crosses in and then pick up the second ball and again thread it back in. Obviously we would need more bodies in the box. Currently, we are far to slow and with Coutinho dropping deep to collect, there are no options upfront. Centre backs are out of the game, Henderson merely goes sideways and Can seemingly in the way when showing for a 3 yard pass.

[JCB]

Agree with this. 

Especially the lack of movement.  Firmino was a rose amongst thorns in that regard yesterday.

Was he? I'm truly interested in your opinion on this... I think he is quite mobile, but can't vouch for yesterday's game. How would you compare him to someone like Costa who is an out an out striker. I'd imagine that Firmino is more mobile and faster, however not as effective with it.

[MinnyRed]

Quote from: nico 8 on Today at 06:24:46 PM
Our biggest problem is lack of movement and someone who can take people on.

Agree with this. 

Especially the lack of movement.  Firmino was a rose amongst thorns in that regard yesterday.

Not  exactly in my view. We do have those players and we chose not to play them. Daniel and divok can both do this. Our set up and tactics let us down yesterday. We played players out of their strengths and relied on players that were. Urging injuries.  frankly we  didn't adjust to Mane's absence.

[nico 8]

Quote from: nico 8 on Today at 06:24:46 PM
Our biggest problem is lack of movement and someone who can take people on.

Not  exactly in my view. We do have those players and we chose not to play them. Daniel and divok can both do this. Our set up and tactics let us down yesterday. We played players out of their strengths and relied on players that were. Urging injuries.  frankly we  didn't adjust to Mane's absence.

Agree that both Origi and Sturridge would have been a better option than Can allowing Llana to drop in the midfield. Just concerned that Sturridge simply isn't the player he was. At least he would look to shoot. However, I think he is currently in the mindset of trying to hard to prove himself. He also gives the impression that once he scores, he loses interest in the game. Origi would have been my choice.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Lallana has to play in midfield. it's that simple.

[Klippity Klopp]

Was he? I'm truly interested in your opinion on this... I think he is quite mobile, but can't vouch for yesterday's game. How would you compare him to someone like Costa who is an out an out striker. I'd imagine that Firmino is more mobile and faster, however not as effective with it.

I was talking about yesterday.  Thought his movement was brilliant and he got two very good goals, created a few other good chances as well. 

Compare anyone to Costa in this league so far upfront and they probably fall short, bar Sanchez.  Doesn't mean Firmino isn't highly effective upfront.

When he had Coutinho and Mane alongside him earlier in the season he was electric and that attack complimented itself so well, as they all had different strengths.

That would suggest to me Firmino is not the issue, but when we miss one or both of Coutinho and Mane, then he's not as effective.  So the cover for those two players is not at the level required possibly.

[nico 8]

Lallana has to play in midfield. it's that simple.

Without a doubt. He can run at players and beat them thereby pulling defenders out place and creating space. Coutinho does it on the other flank. Can and Wijnaldum(whom I like for different reasons as he compliments the team) cannot do this effectively and as required.  Furthermore, we had no overlapping play on the wings. All too pedestrian.

[Black Bull Nova]

Quote from: nico 8 on Today at 06:24:46 PM
Our biggest problem is lack of movement and someone who can take people on.

Not  exactly in my view. We do have those players and we chose not to play them. Daniel and divok can both do this. Our set up and tactics let us down yesterday. We played players out of their strengths and relied on players that were. Urging injuries.  frankly we  didn't adjust to Mane's absence.

Would have like to see Ojo get some minutes yesterday instead of an off form Origi

[JCB]

Ahh sorry...that makes more sense, totally misinterpreted that.

[.G]

It's January , that's why it is possible.

There's millions of players out there. Are we seriously saying we can't find any player who would improve the squad and whose club can be persuaded to sell that we can get, none at all? There's no Coutinho's, Suarez's or Sturridge's out there?

I struggle with that.

[Binomial]

It's a real shame our 2 strikers are off form/misfiring at the moment, because when they're both on form they can be unplayable.

[Black Bull Nova]

There's millions of players out there. Are we seriously saying we can't find any player who would improve the squad and who's club can be persuaded to sell that we can get, none at all? There's no Coutinho's, Suarez's or Sturridge's out there?

I struggle with that.

Please stop mentioning Suarez, it's upsetting to think what Klopp and Luis could do together

[SerbianScouser]

There's no Coutinho's, Suarez's or Sturridge's out there?

We already have a Sturridge and we can't get the best out of him. Where's a guarantee a new guy would settle in straight away and play the best they can? If you look at Swansea game our issue is much bigger than the quality upfront.

Let's find a way to get a better service for Origi and Sturridge to get the best out of them and we won't be longing over new signings. We have enough quality upfront as it is.

[.G]

We already have a Sturridge and we can't get the best out of him. Where's a guarantee a new guy would settle in straight away and play the best they can? If you look at Swansea game our issue is much bigger than the quality upfront.

Let's find a way to get a better service for Origi and Sturridge to get the best out of them and we won't be longing over new signings. We have enough quality upfront as it is.

Our squad is paper thin quality wise which is evidenced by Mane leaving and us having no one of sufficient quality to replace him. Ditto for when Matip, Coutinho and Henderson get injured, their replacements are a significant drop off in quality. Klavan looks every bit the bargain basement backup he is and we have midfielder playing a left back and his only backup has no brain. We have to fill out the bench every week with kids. I'd say there's plenty of areas we can improve the squad. Its a bloody miracle big Jurgs has us where we are at all.

[Malcolm Night]

Don't think we can replace Mane, we have no one else like him in the squad apart from Ojo who is still very raw.

As has already been said we need to play Lallana in midfield, I'd much rather it were Gini pushed into the front three than Lallana. We looked pretty good against Spurs with Gini in our front three. He also had a good goal scoring record for Newcastle coming from LW so I'd quite like to see that given a try, although perhaps on the right side of the front three.

[SerbianScouser]

evidenced by Mane leaving and us having no one of sufficient quality to replace him.

Chelsea don't have anyone to replace Costa, Arsenal don't have anyone to replace Alexis etc, etc...

[JackWard33]

Chelsea don't have anyone to replace Costa, Arsenal don't have anyone to replace Alexis etc, etc...

there's a far bigger drop off from our best forwards to their replacements than there is at either of those clubs

[SerbianScouser]

there's a far bigger drop off from our best forwards to their replacements than there is at either of those clubs

Our attacking depth measures up with anyone in the league. Midfield and defence not so much.

[Klippity Klopp]

Our attacking depth measures up with anyone in the league. Midfield and defence not so much.

I don't agree.  If we lose one or two of Coutinho or Mane, we struggle to have wide players close to what they offer.

We have to play Origi, Lallana, Sturridge or Firmino out of position and all struggle in different ways & we are no where near as threatening as a result.

Klopp has said it himself he thinks the squad lacks wide players.

[MinnyRed]

there's a far bigger drop off from our best forwards to their replacements than there is at either of those clubs

Not sure. I'd take sturridge over Pedro and giroud. Point is, if Chelsea had the games missed that we have up and down their lineup they'd have sacrificed some points too. Matip, Phil, Daniel, Hendo, mane have all missed significant time and firmino and lallana have  missed some not to mention the "oops" from klopp on Migs. We've had our spine ripped out at times. Very few could cope with that. Chelsea would be back by us with that injury / absence record.   

[jckliew]

No Mane,no one to get in behind the defensive bus. We do not have enough speed from the front and the wing backs.
Milner is too slow to get in on his own. Clyne hardly gets in behind the defence. So our strikers are going to find it hard on going when a bus is parked.

[Bolrick]

No Mane,no one to get in behind the defensive bus. We do not have enough speed from the front and the wing backs.
Milner is too slow to get in on his own. Clyne hardly gets in behind the defence. So our strikers are going to find it hard on going when a bus is parked.

That's why I like to see us change our gameplay when we play against these teams.

Don't get me wrong....Firmino is an asset to this team. But without the right personal and with a low lying defence, does it make sense to persist with firmino's pressing ?

Even with Mane and coutinho next to him.......he would have problems getting enough space to make a real difference in the opposition penalty box. It really looks like teams have found out a way to negate our attack. Just defend and overwhelm the central midfield and defence when there is a chance. 

And when we have players doing a job in a unfamiliar position (Milner - LB, Hendo - Deep playing playmaker, Lallana as a front 3, Sturridge and Origi playing on the wings....etc), this just compounds the problem, especially when things are not going our way.

We gotta have a plan B. Sometimes poachers like sturridge can be benefical when played at his right position. And if he needs a strike partner...then pair him with origi and set up rest of the team  around these 2.

If we keep persisting with the same players even when when its not really working......... then expect more results like this. There were warning signs (aginst soton and frickin Plymouth). We did not heed them. Now look what happened ?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

We scored two goals, not scoring was not the issue in this match, defending was, it's clear as day. It was the issue against sunderland, and west ham and bournamouth. That's 10 points dropped there, there's your difference between us and chelsea. Defending.

Not scoring.

[JackWard33]

We scored two goals, not scoring was not the issue in this match, defending was, it's clear as day. It was the issue against sunderland, and west ham and bournamouth. That's 10 points dropped there, there's your difference between us and chelsea. Defending.

Not scoring.

We created almost nothing. Both goals were from nothing crosses and apart from that we created very few chances especially considering the paucity of the opposition
In our last last few games against Plymouth, Southampton and United we've created very little
It's night and day compared to earlier in the season when Mane and Coutinho were fit and firing.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

We created almost nothing. Both goals were from nothing crosses and apart from that we created very few chances especially considering the paucity of the opposition
In our last last few games against Plymouth, Southampton and United we've created very little
It's night and day compared to earlier in the season when Mane and Coutinho were fit and firing.

I agree, we're not fluid and we're not creating as much, however considering the players missing and the situation, we're still scoring. We're not droppoing points because we can't score. It's true that we're not playing as well, but what's costing us points is defending, pure and simple.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

We created almost nothing. Both goals were from nothing crosses and apart from that we created very few chances especially considering the paucity of the opposition
In our last last few games against Plymouth, Southampton and United we've created very little
It's night and day compared to earlier in the season when Mane and Coutinho were fit and firing.

But that is the reality that all clubs face, very few can go through a whole season clicking at 100%. Chelsea have been lucky that they've had very few injury issues, bar Costa and his tantrums. But for the rest, there have been significant drop offs due to injuries, form and suspensions also. For us, that is something we will have to put up with, grinding out results when things are not optimal. If we didn't have issues defending like we did the past little while, there would be no complaining.

And if you're suggesting that we buy to compensate, well, good luck with that. Unless if the incoming talent was exceptional, there will still be a period where they'll have to settle to be effective. Even Suarez took his time with us. Besides, with the pound down 20% since Brexit, it's not like our buying power is immense over at the continent nowadays, TV money or not.