Topic: Arsenal

[Cliff Bastin]

Sorry, it was closer to 15secs. Anyway, he might have helped stop Bournemouth from scoring, if I remember right they played better after the restart.

Just a question, would you call your team bottlers the last 10-15 years?

Liverpool would certainly be in that category the last 10 years. One league cup in 10 years for a club the size of Liverpool is very poor.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Liverpool would certainly be in that category the last 10 years. One league cup in 10 years for a club the size of Liverpool is very poor.

There's a difference between not being good enough to win anything (e.g. Liverpool in the last 10 years) and bottling it (i.e. being good enough to win something but failing due to mental fragility in high pressure situations).

[Ashburton]

There's a difference between not being good enough to win anything (e.g. Liverpool in the last 10 years) and bottling it (i.e. being good enough to win something but failing due to mental fragility in high pressure situations).

Surely that is the exact definition of what happened in the Europa Cup Final.  An absolute implosion, with Kolo, ironically for this discussion being ex-Arsenal, being the only one coming away with any credit.

This season we've seen Arsenal have the most late winners and comebacks I've seen for years, nor to mention the first cup we had in years had to come from being behind.  I don't think the team is mentally fragile, or bottlers, I think the tactics are unsuited for big cup games.

The style of play is effective against poorer teams, which lets you put together plenty of points, yet anyone "as good" or better we struggle with, due to not having a workmanline pressing game.  We've managed now and again to pull this off, but the biggest step from being merely 'good' to 'title winning' has to be in sorting that out.

[Cliff Bastin]

There's a difference between not being good enough to win anything (e.g. Liverpool in the last 10 years) and bottling it (i.e. being good enough to win something but failing due to mental fragility in high pressure situations).

No, that doesn't wash. Liverpool have had some fantastic sides in that run from Torres and prime Gerrard to the genius of Luis Suarez. Liverpool have bottled games for years which they should win easily against league cannon fodder.

[ScottishGoon]

I'd have to break that down into different periods as we've had so many incarnations as a club in that time. So going back 15 years to 2002;

2002-2009: If anything, we were the opposite of bottlers in this period (overachievers? Big game players?). In the league I'd have to hold my hands up and say first Arsenal, then Chelsea, then Man Utd were just better than us. There's a good argument to say that Arsenal 2002-2004, Chelsea 2004-2006 and Man Utd 2006-2009 were the best teams in their respective club's histories. So I'd put not winning the league in that period to just not being as good as them, rather than bottling it at any point. We did however dominate Europe, hence overachieving and being the opposite of bottlers.

2009-12 (the Hicks and Gillette fallout & rebuild): We were just crap. We weren't good enough to be in a position to bottle anything.

2012-15 (the Rodgers years): We probably finished each of Rodger's seasons where we deserved to. I guess you could say throwing away a two point lead in 2014 is bottling it if you were being particularly weird, but truth is Man City were the better team and deservedly won.

2015- (the Klopp years): Who knows, way too early to say. Losing 2 finals in his first year is very bad final form (11 finals short of being Henry-esque you could say). If this keeps happening and we keep getting to, and losing, finals then yeah, I'd say we're bottlers. Ask again in a few years.

And I'd say that's fair comment. Much in the same way, throughout most of the years, we've simply not been good enough either. First Utd, then Chelsea & latterly City have had more money, better teams & better squads. Of course, you guys have punctured that a few years, in the better Benitez days & Rodgers days, but you have the same problem as us, there's bigger or richer guys out there.

Don't get me wrong, I question the mentality often still. But i think it's wrong just to label every defeat as bottling it. How to quantify it anyway? Do you just dismiss all the comebacks, all the late equalisers or winners in games you've won & only count games where you've been beat?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The right word is consistency. Neither clubs have been consistent enough to win the league. Cups are a bit different kettle of fish, but both sides have had comebacks in matches and saved face. However the lack of consistency is the main issue.

I look back at the last time we challenged. We didnt lose the title because of Gerrad or Palace. We werent consistent enough. We went on a 10 match winning streak or so in the 2nd half of the season but people forget the points dropped against Hull, Aston Villa, Newcastle and Swansea. Win two out of those mentioned games and the results against Chelswa and Crystal Palace dont matter.

Consistency is the key. It always has been.

[Something Worse]

Oh cool, the bottling debate again.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Surely that is the exact definition of what happened in the Europa Cup Final.  An absolute implosion, with Kolo, ironically for this discussion being ex-Arsenal, being the only one coming away with any credit.

This season we've seen Arsenal have the most late winners and comebacks I've seen for years, nor to mention the first cup we had in years had to come from being behind.  I don't think the team is mentally fragile, or bottlers, I think the tactics are unsuited for big cup games.

Yeah you could say that about the EL final last year. Or you could say Moreno was just being his usual self, being exposed and exploited. It happens to him in run of the mill league games, it happens to him against The Dog and Duck in the League Cup and FA Cup and it happened to him in the EL Final. Anyway, like I said, if that kind of thing keeps happening to us, then by all means call us bottlers, we'd probably deserve it.

As I mentioned a few posts above, labelling Arsenal "bottlers" probably isn't fair any more. My examples (Gallas, 2003, Euro failure even when you had a good team, etc) were just explaining why as a club with this manager you've got this reputation.

No, that doesn't wash. Liverpool have had some fantastic sides in that run from Torres and prime Gerrard to the genius of Luis Suarez. Liverpool have bottled games for years which they should win easily against league cannon fodder.

I don't think you understand the difference between bottling and not being good enough. Yep, the team with Torres, Gerrard, Alonso, etc, was fucking amazing. They'd wipe the floor with any team in the league today, of that I have no doubt. But they just happened to be in a league with probably the best Man Utd team in their history. Peak Cristiano Ronaldo (peak Cristiano fucking Ronaldo!), peak Rooney, peak Tevez, the best centre back partnership in premier league history, a world class keeper, a world class left back, Paul Scholes. They were fucking good. So our brilliant team not being able to catch one of the best teams in the history of English football isn't a case of bottling it, the Mancs were probably just that little bit better. The only small-fry we failed to beat in that run in was the time Arshavin scored 4 

Likewise in 2014, Suarez was ideed a genius. But Man City were better. When we were running on fumes we had to bring on Aspas. They brought on Dzecko. They scored 103 goals. That's not performing beneath abilities, that's finishing runner up to the better team.

An example of bottling if you need one. The 2002-2003 Arsenal team was by far the best in the league in terms of quality. They had an 8pt lead in March. They went on to be caught by an inferior Man Utd team during the high pressure business end of the season. That's what bottling is.

And I'd say that's fair comment. Much in the same way, throughout most of the years, we've simply not been good enough either. First Utd, then Chelsea & latterly City have had more money, better teams & better squads. Of course, you guys have punctured that a few years, in the better Benitez days & Rodgers days, but you have the same problem as us, there's bigger or richer guys out there.

Don't get me wrong, I question the mentality often still. But i think it's wrong just to label every defeat as bottling it. How to quantify it anyway? Do you just dismiss all the comebacks, all the late equalisers or winners in games you've won & only count games where you've been beat?

Yeah I agree, more often than not better teams beat Arsenal to the league so it's not bottling. In an earlier post I had a go at Wenger for not finishing above Leicester, despite being the only top club not in flux, and also for not beating Monaco. I don't think it's because he's a bottler, I just think that those are examples of why he's probably not a good enough manager to win the PL or CL any more. As long as it's not at our expense, I'd love for him to prove me wrong as he's one of football's good guys and I don't mind Arsenal as much as the others.

[The North Bank]

Very selective when it comes to arsenal, very general when it comes to Liverpool, in 2014 you'd beaten Man city with 4 games left, you saw them off and went top, then lost at home to a reserve Chelsea team and then went 3-0 up at palace and didn't win, Man city had no effect on those games, so if Arsenal bottled it, so did you.
In 2009? You'd beaten what you call the greatest United team ever (they dont hold a candle to the 99 team) 4-1 at old Trafford, beaten real Madrid 4-0 away, you had the best team in England at the time, you weren't exactly Leicester creating miracles, if we bottled it, so did you.

[thelinnen]

The league was gone after the Chelsea game, we were far too arrogant in our setup for a game we only needed a draw in. Gerrard gets the blame but look where the centre halves were when he lost the ball. We got Mourinho'd.

That's my only contribution to this thread today, I can't think of anything more depressing than two sets of fans debating over whose team are the biggest losers.

[Cliff Bastin]

The league was gone after the Chelsea game, we were far too arrogant in our setup for a game we only needed a draw in. Gerrard gets the blame but look where the centre halves were when he lost the ball. We got Mourinho'd.

That's my only contribution to this thread today, I can't think of anything more depressing than two sets of fans debating over whose team are the biggest losers.

We have won a few trophies in last few years.

[The North Bank]

The league was gone after the Chelsea game, we were far too arrogant in our setup for a game we only needed a draw in. Gerrard gets the blame but look where the centre halves were when he lost the ball. We got Mourinho'd.

That's my only contribution to this thread today, I can't think of anything more depressing than two sets of fans debating over whose team are the biggest losers.

I generally think you finish where you deserve after 38 games, its too long a time for luck/ bottle to be telling.
This season is following a similar pattern , hopefully we ll both be in the top 4, but some will make the argument that we "bottled" the big games, and you "bottled" the lesser games. In reality neither team is good enough to win the league, from what I've seen so far.

[ElCapo]

Surely that is the exact definition of what happened in the Europa Cup Final.  An absolute implosion, with Kolo, ironically for this discussion being ex-Arsenal, being the only one coming away with any credit.

This season we've seen Arsenal have the most late winners and comebacks I've seen for years, nor to mention the first cup we had in years had to come from being behind.  I don't think the team is mentally fragile, or bottlers, I think the tactics are unsuited for big cup games.

The style of play is effective against poorer teams, which lets you put together plenty of points, yet anyone "as good" or better we struggle with, due to not having a workmanline pressing game.  We've managed now and again to pull this off, but the biggest step from being merely 'good' to 'title winning' has to be in sorting that out.

This is actually true.  Surely winning (or rescuing points) in Fergie time is the opposite of 'bottling it'.   

[Xabi Gerrard]

That's my only contribution to this thread today, I can't think of anything more depressing than two sets of fans debating over whose team are the biggest losers.

Haha, too true. I guess when Gooners start arguing that the best team in the league by a country mile throwing away an 8pt lead in March is the same as Brendan Rodgers being outwitted by Mourinho, you know the conversation's exhausted

Football's depressing enough as it is this week so quite right, no need to talk about past fuck ups.

On a brighter note, any Gooner's go to the game yesterday? Is the infamous "Good Boys" banner up?

[mersey_paradiso]

Haha, too true. I guess when Gooners start arguing that the best team in the league by a country mile throwing away an 8pt lead in March is the same as Brendan Rodgers being outwitted by Mourinho, you know the conversation's exhausted

Football's depressing enough as it is this week so quite right, no need to talk about past fuck ups.

On a brighter note, any Gooner's go to the game yesterday? Is the infamous "Good Boys" banner up?

It certainly is, in fact there are two !!

[MagicHat]

On the subject of bottling, I think people tend to pick the wrong moments when they call it bottling for some reason. They see the iconic image of Gallas sulk or Gerrard slipping and that is what people remember, not the reasons that match and that season went awry. Inferior squads, fitness, mentality (not in bottling way), tactics, all sorts of things lead to failure to take that final step. We did have troubles with some games down the years where our players seemed frozen in certain games, we would usually fight our way back then end up losing anyway but that Hull cup win seems to have sorted that side out, think our run of defeats led to a mental block and nerves.

[The North Bank]

On the subject of bottling, I think people tend to pick the wrong moments when they call it bottling for some reason. They see the iconic image of Gallas sulk or Gerrard slipping and that is what people remember, not the reasons that match and that season went awry. Inferior squads, fitness, mentality (not in bottling way), tactics, all sorts of things lead to failure to take that final step. We did have troubles with some games down the years where our players seemed frozen in certain games, we would usually fight our way back then end up losing anyway but that Hull cup win seems to have sorted that side out, think our run of defeats led to a mental block and nerves.

We've also won doubles, gone whole season unbeaten, come back from 2 goals down in finals, and won many big games deep into injury time and a record number of games while down to 10 men. Liverpool have had great come backs too, won loads of finals after being down or on penalties. It's the setbacks that stick longer in the memory than the successes.

[child-in-time]

We've also won doubles, gone whole season unbeaten, come back from 2 goals down in finals, and won many big games deep into injury time and a record number of games while down to 10 men. Liverpool have had great come backs too, won loads of finals after being down or on penalties. It's the setbacks that stick longer in the memory than the successes.

And even in your "invincible" season you lost the 2 most important games - the cup semi-final vs United and the CL quarter vs Chelsea in space of 3 days.

[El Lobo]

Newcastle were the only true bottlers under Keegan

Arsenal definitely missed a big opportunity last season, but nah not bottled.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Newcastle were the only true bottlers under Keegan

Arsenal definitely missed a big opportunity last season, but nah not bottled.

Arsenal definitely didn't bottle it last season, I don't think anyone's said they did. They weren't even in the title race so had nothing to bottle. They didn't win the league last year because they weren't good enough, which should probably be even more depressing for Arsenal fans than bottling it. Given they were the only one of the big clubs not in upheaval last season and still weren't able to win it doesn't reflect well at all upon Wenger.

[Xabi Gerrard]

It certainly is, in fact there are two !!

Amazing 

[thelinnen]

We've also won doubles, gone whole season unbeaten, come back from 2 goals down in finals, and won many big games deep into injury time and a record number of games while down to 10 men. Liverpool have had great come backs too, won loads of finals after being down or on penalties. It's the setbacks that stick longer in the memory than the successes.

Only if the setbacks are more recent than the successes. For instance I don't really care about the Athens CL final in 2007 but the 2016 Europa League final performance still pisses me off.

[El Lobo]

Arsenal definitely didn't bottle it last season, I don't think anyone's said they did. They weren't even in the title race so had nothing to bottle. They didn't win the league last year because they weren't good enough, which should probably be even more depressing for Arsenal fans than bottling it. Given they were the only one of the big clubs not in upheaval last season and still weren't able to win it doesn't reflect well at all upon Wenger.

Upheaval?

Chelsea were defending champions and retained the same manager, hardly upheaval.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Upheaval?

Chelsea were defending champions and retained the same manager, hardly upheaval.

You're kidding right? Have you forgotten their manager had a nervous breakdown at the beginning of the season, the club doctor sued him and the club and they had to change manager. If that isn't upheaval I dont know what is!

[Yiannis]

6 undeserved points against Burnley in the last minutes of each game instead of 2.

[ScottishGoon]

You're kidding right? Have you forgotten their manager had a nervous breakdown at the beginning of the season, the club doctor sued him and the club and they had to change manager. If that isn't upheaval I dont know what is!

The thing is, in it not a bit contradictory to knock Wenger for not winning it, while almost excusing the managers / clubs he did better than because they had performed so badly they felt they had to make changes?

[Xabi Gerrard]

The thing is, in it not a bit contradictory to knock Wenger for not winning it, while almost excusing the managers / clubs he did better than because they had performed so badly they felt they had to make changes?

Not really contradictory. The point is this - Wenger doesn't seem capable of winning the big trophies any more. Its sad, but true. Most seasons he can hide behind the excuse of richer clubs going through a period of stability beating them to the top honours.

Last season he couldn't do that because there were no other clubs in a better position (in terms of resources and stability). Yet he still failed to even mount a challenge, let alone win.

To Chelsea's credit, it seems like if something isn't working (like Mourinho last year) they sort it out and more often then not start achieving even more. The complete opposite to Arsenal.

I think for anyone who wants Arsenal to win the big prizes it's obvious that it isn't working with Wenger. If you're happy with always being the bridesmaid, which it seems a lot of you are, that's absolutely fine. There are many things in football you can take enjoyment out of - if finishing 2-4th and above Tottenham & Liverpool are all you need to be satisfied, I'm happy for you. Wenger's absolutely your man.

I do feel for the Arsenal fans who have greater ambitions though (e.g. challenging for the League and CL every year). They pay more than any other fan in the world to watch their club, they're based in one of the most attractive cities in the world for a rich sportsman, they have oodles of cash and spend big wages on their players. Yet they don't fulfill their potential as a club.

[The North Bank]

Not really contradictory. The point is this - Wenger doesn't seem capable of winning the big trophies any more. Its sad, but true. Most seasons he can hide behind the excuse of richer clubs going through a period of stability beating them to the top honours.

Last season he couldn't do that because there were no other clubs in a better position (in terms of resources and stability). Yet he still failed to even mount a challenge, let alone win.

To Chelsea's credit, it seems like if something isn't working (like Mourinho last year) they sort it out and more often then not start achieving even more. The complete opposite to Arsenal.

I think for anyone who wants Arsenal to win the big prizes it's obvious that it isn't working with Wenger. If you're happy with always being the bridesmaid, which it seems a lot of you are, that's absolutely fine. There are many things in football you can take enjoyment out of - if finishing 2-4th and above Tottenham & Liverpool are all you need to be satisfied, I'm happy for you. Wenger's absolutely your man.

I do feel for the Arsenal fans who have greater ambitions though (e.g. challenging for the League and CL every year). They pay more than any other fan in the world to watch their club, they're based in one of the most attractive cities in the world for a rich sportsman, they have oodles of cash and spend big wages on their players. Yet they don't fulfill their potential as a club.

This is where feel good factor has become more important than league positions, there is a lot of feel good factor about Liverpool Spurs and even Man utd that fans will see missing out on top 4 as success because they feel the club is progressing and the view is backed up by the media, even if Arsenal finish above all these teams but below Chelsea, it'll be seen as failure, and it'll be backed up by excuses of upheaval and transitions at other clubs.
Spurs have a young team, Klopp hasn't built his team yet, neither has pep and its mourinho's first season. Last season was upheaval, this season transition, next season there will be other excuses, the only difference between Wenger and other "top" managers, is that their excuses are ready made.
The best one being that everyone took a year off last season and arsenal still failed to win the league. While things are not great, there are certainly double standards, if we have been 6th all season, or lost to everton 4-0, or got knocked out of a piss easy CL group, or just lost at home to Swansea, the media will be in meltdown calling for his head, at other clubs they'll blame the players.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Granit Xhaka accused of racial abuse and interviewed by police after Heathrow Airport incident

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/01/24/granit-xhaka-arsenal-accused-racial-abuse-interviewed-police/

[Xabi Gerrard]

This is where feel good factor has become more important than league positions, there is a lot of feel good factor about Liverpool Spurs and even Man utd that fans will see missing out on top 4 as success because they feel the club is progressing and the view is backed up by the media, even if Arsenal finish above all these teams but below Chelsea, it'll be seen as failure, and it'll be backed up by excuses of upheaval and transitions at other clubs.
Spurs have a young team, Klopp hasn't built his team yet, neither has pep and its mourinho's first season. Last season was upheaval, this season transition, next season there will be other excuses, the only difference between Wenger and other "top" managers, is that their excuses are ready made.
The best one being that everyone took a year off last season and arsenal still failed to win the league. While things are not great, there are certainly double standards, if we have been 6th all season, or lost to everton 4-0, or got knocked out of a piss easy CL group, or just lost at home to Swansea, the media will be in meltdown calling for his head, at other clubs they'll blame the players.

Good points. I think you downplay last season though as if the upheavals were some sort of abstract nonsense. It wasn't, there were tangible factors stopping your rivals from mounting a challenge - managers being sacked halfway through the season, managers being told they were going to be sacked halfway through the season, etc. These were real things which opened up the title race for anyone with a bit of stability.

I disagree with your point about why Liverpool, etc, should be held to the same standard as Wenger. Speaking as a Liverpool fan I get that we're not any better than Arsenal yet but I still hold Klopp to a different standard than Gooners should Wenger right now. We were much better at the end of last season than when he took over, and we're even better now than at the end of last season. There's clear ongoing improvement. We don't know what his ceiling at Liverpool is yet and probably won't be able to judge fairly until the end of next season. I'd say it's the same for Pep at City and Mourinho at Man Utd.

Now look at Arsenal's situation. We know what Wenger's ceiling is in modern football, right? He's shown he's not able to usurp bigger stable clubs (a la Simeone at Atletico or Benitez at Valencia). He showed last season he wasn't able to win when the bigger spenders were in chaos. The same problems seem to happen for you year after year without any sign of improvement. So answer me this as an Arsenal fan (any of you, not just TNB);

1) What do you think a club of Arsenal's resources should be aiming for? (My personal opinion is a proper challenge every season for PL & CL)

2) Is Wenger capable of a proper challenge every season for PL & CL?

3) If answer to 2) is yes, what circumstances are you waiting for for this to happen? Because whether the league opens up for you (like last year) or the league's a closed shop for the mega-rich (like most years), he hasn't been able to deliver it. So what's going to make Arsenal suddenly start challenging under Wenger?

[Cliff Bastin]

6 undeserved points against Burnley in the last minutes of each game instead of 2.

Burnley parked the bus and the plane and didn't deserve anything.

[Omygoditsomar]

Both goals were offside whether or not Burnley deserved a point is irrelevant

[Cliff Bastin]

Both goals were offside whether or not Burnley deserved a point is irrelevant

They can have the offside, just give us our penalty on Mustafi then. Maybe if they had more ambition they might have got something from the game.

[Yiannis]

Burnley parked the bus and the plane and didn't deserve anything.

They can have the offside, just give us our penalty on Mustafi then. Maybe if they had more ambition they might have got something from the game.

Couldn't care less how they played. They do it every bloody game.
Fact is you beat them with goals that shouldn't have stood in the dying minute(s) of your respective fixtures. Am not saying anything like "Oh this team deserved (or didn't) to win with the chances they had" etc.

The penalty on Mustafi, not so clear violation, is it? Thinking of it, a similar situation in basically the same exact part of the pitch happened on Chelsea vs Hull and that was clear cut.

[The North Bank]

Both goals were offside whether or not Burnley deserved a point is irrelevant

Both Man city goals against us were offside, no one mentions it when we get robbed.

On Xhaka, he's starting to become a liability and needs to sort himself out.

[The North Bank]

Couldn't care less how they played. They do it every bloody game.
Fact is you beat them with goals that shouldn't have stood in the dying minute(s) of your respective fixtures. Am not saying anything like "Oh this team deserved (or didn't) to win with the chances they had" etc.

The penalty on Mustafi, not so clear violation, is it? Thinking of it, a similar situation in basically the same exact part of the pitch happened on Chelsea vs Hull and that was clear cut.

In the first game Burnley players clearly saved shots with outstretched arms in the box, nothing was given.
The mustafi push was as blatant as the Burnley pen. He was elbowed in the face too and not even a card given.
Against Everton Sanchez was blatantly tripped in the box in injury time, the ref played on, same as against Sunderland.
Against Bournemouth the most blatant push on bellerin was not given for their third and a less push on their player was awarded with a pen.
Against city 2 offside goals.
I don't understand this tag of being lucky. We have had some shockers by refs this season, even the xhaka red , I've seen Rojo do much worse every week and get away with it.

[Cliff Bastin]

Couldn't care less how they played. They do it every bloody game.
Fact is you beat them with goals that shouldn't have stood in the dying minute(s) of your respective fixtures. Am not saying anything like "Oh this team deserved (or didn't) to win with the chances they had" etc.

The penalty on Mustafi, not so clear violation, is it? Thinking of it, a similar situation in basically the same exact part of the pitch happened on Chelsea vs Hull and that was clear cut.

Mustafi got to the ball first and was fouled. Clear penalty. I have no sympathy for those types of teams. They base what they do on luck by trying to hang on. Get what they deserve.

[Yiannis]

Here we go again with the 'deserve'. I know it's easy to use it, and I still do it at times but there is no 'deserve' in football unless you've been clearly butchered by a ref.

On the performances thing, I don't like it either, most of the teams have done that thing against us this season but I don't blame them. That's the best they can, that's what they do. It's up to you to unlock them.

[Cliff Bastin]

Here we go again with the 'deserve'. I know it's easy to use it, and I still do it at times but there is no 'deserve' in football unless you've been clearly butchered by a ref.

On the performances thing, I don't like it either, most of the teams have done that thing against us this season but I don't blame them. That's the best they can, that's what they do. It's up to you to unlock them.

We do the vast majority of the time. Why they bother still doing it is beyond me. Have a go, try to score. Managers with that mentality won't do anything historically important in the game.

[Ashburton]

In the first game Burnley players clearly saved shots with outstretched arms in the box, nothing was given.
The mustafi push was as blatant as the Burnley pen. He was elbowed in the face too and not even a card given.
Against Everton Sanchez was blatantly tripped in the box in injury time, the ref played on, same as against Sunderland.
Against Bournemouth the most blatant push on bellerin was not given for their third and a less push on their player was awarded with a pen.
Against city 2 offside goals.
I don't understand this tag of being lucky. We have had some shockers by refs this season, even the xhaka red , I've seen Rojo do much worse every week and get away with it.

It's simple, the highlights only usually show the 'goal' incidents, only fans of that club would be watching the full 90 and wondering why Mustafi got elbowed twice and tripped in the box, yet got nothing for it.  Yet somehow because a Burnley player kicks Koscielny in the head in the box it's "lucky".

We do the vast majority of the time. Why they bother still doing it is beyond me. Have a go, try to score. Managers with that mentality won't do anything historically important in the game.

Di Matteo and Mourinho might have something to say about that.

I don't agree with the 'deserve', I think just because you have "bigger" players and a larger fanbase, doesn't mean smaller teams need to roll over and give you 3 points.  If they want to defend for 90 minutes, be well drilled and stifle the better team then I don't see anything wrong with that - it is up to the team to carve a way through.   Indeed up until Xhaka's red card I felt the game was going to open out to a 2-0 or 3-0 once Burnley had to push forward seeing their equaliser.