Author Topic: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion  (Read 266878 times)

Offline scared_person

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1480 on: June 20, 2011, 01:55:44 pm »
You're right, we paid about 20M too much for Carrol and about 15M too much for Henderson. It's a bit upsetting to see us spending the type of money that could buy real proven top class players on unknown quantities, it's a huge and unnecessary risk in my opinion.

People make it sound like sacrilige to raise concerns about how the club management are operating, but anyone with a mind of their own will never agree 100% with everything they do. I will be 100% behind Kenny and any new signings too, and like yourself I hope they prove me very wrong, but I do wonder if it were Hodson who spend 55M on Carrol and Henderson how differently it might have been recieved by the majority of the fans.

We signed him for £13M according to all the trustworthy sources. You think they should have paid us?!

You will not get a proven top class midfielder for £13M unless he's running out of contract. When you also factor in that we have no european football its unlikely that the proven top quality would come anyway.

Offline Steve Funn

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1481 on: June 20, 2011, 02:00:45 pm »
Wasnt £13m the figure bandied about when Ngog was in the deal?  I was under the impression that had been superceded and the generally accepted figure is £16-18m?

Offline scared_person

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1482 on: June 20, 2011, 02:06:34 pm »
Wasnt £13m the figure bandied about when Ngog was in the deal?  I was under the impression that had been superceded and the generally accepted figure is £16-18m?

To be honest you might be right. It's fucking impossible to know what the real fee is.

Even if it is £18M as you suggest LFC1984 is suggesting that a young under21 international midfielder tied down to a long term contract has a true value of £3M?! bollocks, you couldn't get Paul Konchesky for that!!

Offline lfc1984

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1483 on: June 20, 2011, 02:08:48 pm »
Wasnt £13m the figure bandied about when Ngog was in the deal?  I was under the impression that had been superceded and the generally accepted figure is £16-18m?

Thats how I understood it too, but even at 13M he doesn't represent value for money. I realise that not being able to offer European football limits our ability to attract star players but that doesn't mean we should overpay for others. We should be paying what a player is worth and no more.

Offline scared_person

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1484 on: June 20, 2011, 02:21:42 pm »
Thats how I understood it too, but even at 13M he doesn't represent value for money. I realise that not being able to offer European football limits our ability to attract star players but that doesn't mean we should overpay for others. We should be paying what a player is worth and no more.

So you honestly think the value of Henderson is between £-2million and £3million?!?

Offline NuncaCaminarįsSolo

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1485 on: June 20, 2011, 02:27:05 pm »
Thats how I understood it too, but even at 13M he doesn't represent value for money. I realise that not being able to offer European football limits our ability to attract star players but that doesn't mean we should overpay for others. We should be paying what a player is worth and no more.

Sorry, but it's not 1999 anymore. 13 million for a highly rated English prospect is not expensive at all. On the other hand, for me, 20 million for Henderson is a bit much but as others have pointed out no one even knows the real fee so I think the only way to judge how Comolli & Kenny are managing our transfer budget is to see the total quantity & quality of signings made by September.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1486 on: June 20, 2011, 02:32:28 pm »
Oh come on, dont quote sterling, and suso to me, where do they even feature in this discussion.

Because its a discussion about our whole culture and strategy and YOU talked about Henderson being a drag and hinderance to the talent in our academy system. And the sullen disparagement of Henderson before he's even kicked a ball, and the implication that Kenny and our coaches are so dozy that they'd sign a player that would block the very talent they've spent the last few years nurturing can only be put down to a petulance that we haven't signed Fantasy Utopia now.

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Offline scared_person

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1487 on: June 20, 2011, 02:33:28 pm »
Sorry, but it's not 1999 anymore. 13 million for a highly rated English prospect is not expensive at all. On the other hand, for me, 20 million for Henderson is a bit much but as others have pointed out no one even knows the real fee so I think the only way to judge how Comolli & Kenny are managing our transfer budget is to see the total quantity & quality of signings made by September.

Spot on!

If he doesn't progress then we'll sell him in two years for £4-6Million, an average price for an average midfielder. If he kicks on and becomes a really good player he'll be worth well more than we paid. Like all deals for young players we'll only know in a few years time.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1488 on: June 20, 2011, 02:36:53 pm »
To be fair, considering where we were just last year, and how quickly everything's taking shape, it's easy to get impatient and expect immediate success without time. I'm genuinly excited about aquiring players like henderson, as i know it will pay dividends in the years to come, but it would be nice by the end of the window, especially with the fair play rules coming into play soon that we stock up with young but established players also.

To be fair, anyone who gets impatient now needs to be put in the stocks. Make no mistake about it, Kenny will be trying to win the league next season, but he's recruiting to set us up for the next few decades. Disparaging players he brings in like Henderson at this moment in time, simply because of impatience that is more like throwing the toys out of the pram because we can't have Fantasy Manager signings ASAP is a dig we don't need.


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Offline NuncaCaminarįsSolo

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1489 on: June 20, 2011, 02:38:17 pm »
Another thing we should also consider is that the playing style of a squad that a player plays in has a big impact on his performances. If there was one good thing that resulted from Hodgson's time here is that now we know that anyone can be made to look like clueless lower league Sunday footballer when being forced to play hoof ball for 90 minutes. Just look at Torres transformation from a world cup winner to a Zamora look-alike in only a half a season under Hodgson.

As a result, I think the difference in Henderson playing for Sunderland and England U21's and playing for Liverpool may be similar to the difference between Maxi playing under hodge podge and Kenny.

Just something to keep in mind.

Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1490 on: June 20, 2011, 02:45:06 pm »
Whenever I watched Sunderland, Henderson always impressed me. Whatever we say about potato face, one thing is that his side's forward players always provide good movement and Henderson was thriving on them. We do have much better player to provide much better movement than what Sunderland side provided to Henderson and that gives me lot of confidence he will be a success with us.
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Offline Steve Funn

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1491 on: June 20, 2011, 02:58:18 pm »
Another thing we should also consider is that the playing style of a squad that a player plays in has a big impact on his performances. If there was one good thing that resulted from Hodgson's time here is that now we know that anyone can be made to look like clueless lower league Sunday footballer when being forced to play hoof ball for 90 minutes. Just look at Torres transformation from a world cup winner to a Zamora look-alike in only a half a season under Hodgson.

As a result, I think the difference in Henderson playing for Sunderland and England U21's and playing for Liverpool may be similar to the difference between Maxi playing under hodge podge and Kenny.

Just something to keep in mind.
Yeah I think this, I was disappointed by his performances because well obviously you would be, if i got asked when we signed him 'would you like to see henderson be outstanding in the u21's or be a bit rubbish' id have gone for 'id like to see him be outstanding please' BUT its obvious why they were a bit rubbish, that was not a team that a henderson type midfielder is going to thrive in at all.  I mean Michael Mancienne in centre mid alongside him, really?  I dont think even Wilshere would have made much difference if swapped for Henderson, there were no passes to make and there were hardly any decent passes to recieve either.

Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1492 on: June 20, 2011, 03:09:40 pm »
Even though he was disappointing, I though whenever he stepped up with his quick give and go style, he seemed impressive. And playing him as DM is waste since clearly he is not suited for that role.
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Offline MikkeB

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1493 on: June 20, 2011, 04:09:00 pm »
Because its a discussion about our whole culture and strategy and YOU talked about Henderson being a drag and hinderance to the talent in our academy system. And the sullen disparagement of Henderson before he's even kicked a ball, and the implication that Kenny and our coaches are so dozy that they'd sign a player that would block the very talent they've spent the last few years nurturing can only be put down to a petulance that we haven't signed Fantasy Utopia now.


who said any of the above? if you confuse having an opinion, and a degree of scepticism about a player just purchased, as i've seen many a fan do year on year, with calling kenny dozy, and insulting a club i've been paying to watch for donkeys years what can i say? pal if you want to create your own arguments and exaggerate things ive said, putting words in my mouth, then thats up to you.


I'll say my opinion to you again, hopefully you'll understand.

I think the purchases of caroll and henderson, for the prices we've heard, £35mil, and £16-18mil, are very high. Because those two players in particular, aren't as good yet as their price tag suggests, we have to hope that comolli's judgement of their future potential is correct. As i'm quite sceptical of comolli's history, regarding expensive purchases of emerging british talent, and their future potential,  Bentley, Bent to name two examples, i am equally suspect that we could have two expensive players on our hands, that might not fulfil potential. As we are trying to get back into the top six as quickly as possible, buying players that do warrant the price tags now, for example Suarez, stand us much better chances of success.

Offline Armand9

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1494 on: June 20, 2011, 04:27:16 pm »
To be fair, anyone who gets impatient now needs to be put in the stocks. Make no mistake about it, Kenny will be trying to win the league next season, but he's recruiting to set us up for the next few decades. Disparaging players he brings in like Henderson at this moment in time, simply because of impatience that is more like throwing the toys out of the pram because we can't have Fantasy Manager signings ASAP is a dig we don't need.

Spot on, great summation of where we are and how we should be reflecting on matters as fans.
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Offline Stussy

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1495 on: June 20, 2011, 04:47:25 pm »
who said any of the above?

You did:

do you think that buying young players who aren't first team starters, might hinder the development opportunities for emerging reserve team players. especially ones that have the quality, but might not be considered urgent talent, using spearing as an example here.

as for adding squad depth do we just sell the players we have coming through the from the reserves?

The judgment call has been made by Kenny. Henderson should not be considered a hinderance before he even kicks a ball for us, second guessing and presuming his presence is a block on our academy players. That judgment has been made by the man intimately connected with our academy for the last couple of years, the man who wanted to buy Jordan Henderson - KD.




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Offline Stussy

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1496 on: June 20, 2011, 05:01:35 pm »

We can't always get what we want. We can't sign players X Y and Z who are instantenously on a Suarez or Gerrard level, because we are bounded by finite resources and restrictions caused by factors like not being in Europe next season, and other clubs with money chasing after these players. Kenny has made a decision to pursue certain players not just for next season, but with a medium to long term utility to us too. We might sing one or two or (we can dream) three XY & Z super players, but impatience because we don't causing an underwhelmed dismissal of this lad is not a useful reaction.

Henderson is Premiership proven, has been gauged to be able to make a step change upwards under our coaches and in our team, and can be a mainstay of our mission for years. These judgment calls have been made factoring in everything that Kenny knows - about the immediate prospect of a talent emerging from the academy that can play as well as Henderson now and in the future, as well as with the knowledge of who we realistically can sign now.

Its also being commented on in partial darkness - because we don't know who else we are going to sign and how they are going to segue together with this signing, our remaining players and our youth prospects.

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Offline JasbinderX

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1497 on: June 20, 2011, 05:04:25 pm »
We bought Mascherano for around the same price for Henderson (naturally people who deflate the Henderson fee, will inflate the Mascherano fee to suit their argument), but give or take a couple of million it was similar. Now that was a good deal.

We bought Alonso for around 12 million, alot less than Henderson. That was a great deal.

We bought Lucas for 6 million, was hardly a risk if he came good or not.

The Henderson deal is crazy.

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1498 on: June 20, 2011, 05:32:06 pm »
.

That was then, this is now.

Jones has just gone for 16.

It's not crazy. It's the market for a young home grown player.

I wonder if the Mancs sit there questioning whether 16 was too much for Jones to the degree that we do?
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Offline Suįrez_7

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1499 on: June 20, 2011, 05:40:40 pm »

We bought Mascherano for around the same price for Henderson (naturally people who deflate the Henderson fee, will inflate the Mascherano fee to suit their argument), but give or take a couple of million it was similar. Now that was a good deal.


We bought Alonso for around 12 million, alot less than Henderson. That was a great deal.

We bought Lucas for 6 million, was hardly a risk if he came good or not.

The Henderson deal is crazy.

Was it a good deal really though buying him from west ham reserves turning him into a star and later sell him on for no profit.

Offline new-red

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1500 on: June 20, 2011, 06:10:10 pm »
the lucas deal might go down as one of our best ever transfers. 6m for a first XI player who still has yet to reach his peak. Man, great piece of business.

The alonso deal is definitely one of the best deals in our history. 12m for an absolutely world class player, you cant find many better deals than that. However, if we get Mata for 17m that might be as great.

Henderson could prove to be a great deal but he has quite a bit of work to do to live up to his price tag.
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Offline Redrider

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1501 on: June 20, 2011, 06:51:29 pm »
The purchase of Henderson seems to be a misjudgement. If his U21 performances are any guide then we already have better players playing in our midfield that finished the season.
Just have to hope that he can improve radically, he has a good quick pass, but no dominance and was often peripheral to the action, particularly when the opposition were pressing through midfield.
I half suspect that we have just purchased a prospective 'loanee' !

Offline LiverpoolForever

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1502 on: June 20, 2011, 07:07:31 pm »
The purchase of Henderson seems to be a misjudgement. If his U21 performances are any guide


Stopped reading there....they are not a guide , they are irrelevant unless Kenny plays an identical system to Pearce.

Has any player got such negative views before they have even trained with his club before? Get a grip for christ's sake.How can anyone even assume its a ''misjudgement'' before he has kicked a ball for us?  :butt



« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 07:09:20 pm by LiverpoolForever »

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1503 on: June 20, 2011, 07:09:17 pm »
The purchase of Henderson seems to be a misjudgement. If his U21 performances are any guide then we already have better players playing in our midfield that finished the season.
Just have to hope that he can improve radically, he has a good quick pass, but no dominance and was often peripheral to the action, particularly when the opposition were pressing through midfield.
I half suspect that we have just purchased a prospective 'loanee' !

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Offline NuncaCaminarįsSolo

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1504 on: June 20, 2011, 07:22:50 pm »
Stopped reading there....they are not a guide , they are irrelevant unless Kenny plays an identical system to Pearce.

Exactly. Not even Xavi could look good in a team setup to play hoof ball for 90 minutes.

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1505 on: June 20, 2011, 07:25:31 pm »
Exactly. Not even Xavi could look good in a team setup to play hoof ball for 90 minutes.

Hi, this is the about the 100th time I've mentioned this, but the England U21s did not play hoofball.  They kept it on the deck and Henderson failed to make an impression.
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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1506 on: June 20, 2011, 07:28:35 pm »
Hi, this is the about the 100th time I've mentioned this, but the England U21s did not play hoofball.  They kept it on the deck and Henderson failed to make an impression.

Good one.
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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1507 on: June 20, 2011, 07:29:02 pm »
Good one.

Thanks, Hazell.  Always knew you had my back.
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Offline NuncaCaminarįsSolo

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1508 on: June 20, 2011, 07:36:42 pm »
Hi, this is the about the 100th time I've mentioned this, but the England U21s did not play hoofball.  They kept it on the deck and Henderson failed to make an impression.

 :o

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1509 on: June 20, 2011, 07:40:50 pm »
I wouldnt judge any player on how they perform in an England shirt, especially with Pearce as manager. The english national side, at almost all levels, is crap. Henderson looked like the rest of them - confused with the tactics and watching the ball sail over his head after hoofs from the back. Lets see what hes like playing alongside Gerrard, Suarez, Carroll etc. and with over 40,000 liverpool fans cheering him on

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1510 on: June 20, 2011, 07:41:58 pm »
His fee is not his fault
The fact that he has played in a piss poor England U21 side that bears no correlation to how we play is not his fault
The fact that he's young and English is not his fault
Kenny and Commoli seeing something in him is not his fault

Yet he is being slaughtered. Murdered in front of a crowd. Crucified. For being a Liverpool player. One of ours. This pains me but this lad is fucked without even one training session, let alone a game behind him.

Most of the bile being vomited forth on this thread is quite unbelievable. He's good enough for Kenny/Liverpool FC - He's good enough for me. Jordan son, I wish you all the best lad - YNWA.
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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1511 on: June 20, 2011, 07:42:21 pm »
I wouldnt judge any player on how they perform in an England shirt, especially with Pearce as manager. The english national side, at almost all levels, is crap. Henderson looked like the rest of them - confused with the tactics and watching the ball sail over his head after hoofs from the back. Lets see what hes like playing alongside Gerrard, Suarez, Carroll etc. and with over 40,000 liverpool fans cheering him on
Fucking right too son
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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1512 on: June 20, 2011, 07:42:42 pm »
Hi, this is the about the 100th time I've mentioned this, but the England U21s did not play hoofball.  They kept it on the deck and Henderson failed to make an impression.

They also had zero movement, so after being unable to knock the ball about on the deck for this reason - they ended up hoofing into the flanks in hope.
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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1513 on: June 20, 2011, 07:43:07 pm »
Hi, this is the about the 100th time I've mentioned this, but the England U21s did not play hoofball.  They kept it on the deck and Henderson failed to make an impression.

Oh well, that's it i'm writing him off too then (I didn't watch all of the u21 games but i'll certanly take your word for it).

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1514 on: June 20, 2011, 07:43:16 pm »
confused with the tactics

Yes.

and watching the ball sail over his head after hoofs from the back

I give up.
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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1515 on: June 20, 2011, 07:44:51 pm »
Oh well, that's it i'm writing him off too then (I didn't watch all of the u21 games but i'll certanly take your word for it).

I haven't written him off - check my posts, I'll judge him in a Liverpool shirt and he just had a bad tournament.
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Offline zamagiure

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1516 on: June 20, 2011, 07:45:09 pm »
The purchase of Henderson seems to be a misjudgement. If his U21 performances are any guide then we already have better players playing in our midfield that finished the season.
Just have to hope that he can improve radically, he has a good quick pass, but no dominance and was often peripheral to the action, particularly when the opposition were pressing through midfield.
I half suspect that we have just purchased a prospective 'loanee' !
What a load of bullshit.
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1517 on: June 20, 2011, 07:45:39 pm »
What a horrendous thread
If you can't trust Kenny, you need to find another club, seriously.

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1518 on: June 20, 2011, 07:47:46 pm »
I haven't written him off - check my posts, I'll judge him in a Liverpool shirt and he just had a bad tournament.

He didn't really get a chance to do much. Watching the ball go over his head regularly was one of the reasons. Regardlss, anyone making judgements on him over his last 3 games really shouldn't.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

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Re: Jordan Henderson-Officially a Liverpool player- Discussion
« Reply #1519 on: June 20, 2011, 07:49:02 pm »
What a horrendous thread

Whats happened to our fanbase Breitner? Roll back the years and every player got full support regardless of age , fee or how they did in their national side.God knows how Fowler would of been treated if he was judged playing for England in this present time.

If we dont back the lad to deliver the goods for us then who the hell will?