Author Topic: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1  (Read 7896 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« on: November 6, 2015, 03:31:37 pm »
This was a classic European Home team vs Away team performance if ever I saw one. Liverpool, on this occassion decided to play the part of the home team. Rubin played the part of the away team, not that they had any choice in the matter at all.

Since Klopp decided to move us away from a possession based game, we are now keeping possession of the football more than at any time under Rodgers. Wait, What? You see under Rodgers, our problem was actually getting the ball back or stopping opponents from hurting us with it. So while Klopp isnīt focusing much right now on how we use the ball in training, the simple fact that the opposition cannot keep the ball away from us means our possession numbers are steadily climbing. So much so that at one point, the Kazan fans were celebrating their team just being able to touch the ball. Way to go Rubin Kazan!!!

So my talking points are:-
1. Running in behind - is it just me or are we seeing this now a LOT more often? And we seem a lot more penetrating as a result.
2. Jordan Ibe - Did those flashes of form returning just become a blinding light tonight?
3. Clyne - our new attacking right back?
4. The most controlling performance we have seen since the days of Rafa?
5. Skrtel - our new DM destroyer? :D
« Last Edit: November 6, 2015, 08:19:48 pm by BabuYagu »
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #1 on: November 6, 2015, 08:32:43 pm »
I think you can slowly start to see everything starting to click into place. I was never worried about the lack of goals in the initial games as Klopp was putting down these foundations to build on. And I have to say I really like what I am seeing so far. There is more to come too. One of the key elements I saw coming into play this game was runners in behind the forward. I have been saying since Klopp joined that it was a key thing we see from all attacking players in Dortmund. Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang & Reus all get a lot of goals for Dortmund doing exactly this and I guarantee you it was this element of their game which was a key reason why Klopp targeted them to begin with.


It is for this reason I have thought Henderson may very well be in contention for one of the forward 3 positions. Having someone who presses with that intensity, has en eye for a pass and loves running beyond the forward and is also a solid finisher of chances seems like the perfect skillset for Klopp in that position. It is also why I canīt see us playing with both Coutinho and Lallana as part of the attacking options. I think one of the main reasons so far under Klopp that we have lacked a little in penetration is because his system relies so heavily on runners behind the central striker. I also think having Coutinho playing as an #8 playing those balls into the runners behind Benteke will be something Klopp may try.


Another interesting thing I have noticed since Clyneīs goal against Bournemouth, he appears to have been instructed to get in the box at every oppertunity he can. A good example of all these points combined was around the 30 minute mark, we win the ball back inside the Kazan half, Clyne quickly feeds the ball into Benteke with his back to goal and then looks to get beyong him. Benteke lays the ball off to Allen who could have chipped the ball over Benteke and the defender who followed him to Clyne who would be 1 on 1 with the keeper. Another example is Bentekeīs dummy in the first half allowing Firmino a shot in on goal. Then of course the goal itself where this time Firmino plays in Ibe who ran in behind him to score.

Itīs clearly something we are now working on given the number of times it happened in just this game alone and itīs a hugely positive sign as it means we are perhaps further along in our progress with Klopp than I anticipated. We are also starting to see partnerships forming all over the pitch as the players get used to each other. Firmino, in particular, is starting to be more influential as players get on his wave length. Heīs a very very clever player.


Lastly, Jordan Ibe. In the last roundtable we discussed those flashes in his play that indicated his form was coming back. Even still I wasnīt ready for that last night. He was absolutely outstanding. 1/2 of all dribbled performed in the match yesterday were by Ibe. Think about that. The other 27 players on the pitch combined had the same number of dribbles as Ibe. Even more interestingly, all but one of those dribbles happened in the first 55 minutes of the game. Did he start to tire or was it a tactical instruction once we had gone ahead to stop running at them so much with the ball?

He was Man of the Match for me and on stats sites, received one of the best individual performance ratings Iīve ever seen. Well played Jordan. I said when Klopp signed he would be a vital player for us as the only real wide player we have in our squad. If this guy stays in form for Klopp he will be a star for us.
« Last Edit: November 6, 2015, 08:37:08 pm by BabuYagu »
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #2 on: November 6, 2015, 08:48:16 pm »
Oh and one last point, for 2 consecutive games, the oppositions #10 has been pulled early from the game. Hazard was pulled off early by Mourinho. His lack of interest in preventing Lucas & Sakho on the ball as well as his inability to influence the game in attack meant Mourinho took off his star man and the "leagues best player" in favour of Kenedy.

Last night it was Carlos Eduardo, the former Brazilian International playmaker, who was taken off at half time for a more defensive minded midfielder in Ozdoev as Rubin Kazan tried to lessen the stranglehold we had on their midfield.

Iīve noticed Klopp likes to overload the opponents players in central areas to give them too many problems to possibly solve alone causing them to seemingly have very poor games. I (hope) suspect this will be something we see more off. Opposition star midfielders "being poor", "struggling to get into the game" etc. Instead of acknowledging our way of playing, when it succeeds, will make midfielders look poor.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #3 on: November 7, 2015, 11:39:10 am »
Thanks for starting yet another round table with another insightful OP. You're really becoming the go-to person for these now aren't you? ;D

1. Running in behind - is it just me or are we seeing this now a LOT more often? And we seem a lot more penetrating as a result.

I commented in the HT thread that we needed more running beyond Benteke, as for all our possession and spatial dominance we weren't hurting Kazan enough. That said, we did make some progress, and Ibe's goal was very similar to the type of goal Dortmund would score often, with a player coming short laying the ball off to an on-rushing winger after drawing a player out of position.

The three moments that stand out in hindsight are Milner's crossbar, Ibe's goal, and Ibe's quick one-two at the end of the first half when Kazan's keeper made an excellent double-save, and what all these have in common is that we had a runner looking to get beyond their defenders. It is something we saw more of than in previous games, but we can still do it a whole lot more. I'm confident that this will come gradually with time.

2. Jordan Ibe - Did those flashes of form returning just become a blinding light tonight?

I did a bit of a double-take when I first saw Ibe's stats on whoscored, with a rating of 9.6 and an utterly absurd total of 11 successful dribbles. Surely there was something wrong with that stat, to count 11 dribbles! But sure enough his highlight video confirms just how many times he left his marker eating dust. To put that in perspective, the highest total after Ibe in 4 EL games so far is 14, so to get 11 in one game is truly outstanding.

Ibe already showed signs of improvement against Bournemouth (nearly setting up a headed goal for Origi for example) as well as against Chelsea, so I don't think this was a flash in the pan performance. Whilst Indont think we should expect performances like this every game, he clearly has confidence and backing of the manager so I see no reason why he can't continue to put in good performances.

3. Clyne - our new attacking right back?

It was a real shame that his sprint up field in the second half wasn't rewarded by a better run from Benteke. That was superb. I don't think we've seen the best of Clyne yet, as once the players get to grips with Klopp's give and go style Clyne should benefit in a big way due to how good he is at getting into the box. I remember his performances early last season where he constantly penetrated the box inside and outside the winger to great effect, best exemplified by his goal at Anfield.

4. The most controlling performance we have seen since the days of Rafa?

I think we controlled the game against Bournemouth in a similar way, but given the circumstances (away in Russia) I think this was certainly up there. I can't even remember the last time we were this dominant away in Europe, but it surely must have been during the days of Rafa.

5. Skrtel - our new DM destroyer? :D

Who needs backup for Lucas when you have Lovren and Skrtel!? ;D
« Last Edit: November 7, 2015, 11:41:01 am by rickardinho1 »

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #4 on: November 7, 2015, 12:31:43 pm »
Thanks for starting yet another round table with another insightful OP. You're really becoming the go-to person for these now aren't you? ;D

[1]1. Running in behind - is it just me or are we seeing this now a LOT more often? And we seem a lot more penetrating as a result.[/b]

I commented in the HT thread that we needed more running beyond Benteke, as for all our possession and spatial dominance we weren't hurting Kazan enough. That said, we did make some progress, and Ibe's goal was very similar to the type of goal Dortmund would score often, with a player coming short laying the ball off to an on-rushing winger after drawing a player out of position.

The three moments that stand out in hindsight are Milner's crossbar, Ibe's goal, and Ibe's quick one-two at the end of the first half when Kazan's keeper made an excellent double-save, and what all these have in common is that we had a runner looking to get beyond their defenders. It is something we saw more of than in previous games, but we can still do it a whole lot more. I'm confident that this will come gradually with time.

2. Jordan Ibe - Did those flashes of form returning just become a blinding light tonight?

I did a bit of a double-take when I first saw Ibe's stats on whoscored, with a rating of 9.6 and an utterly absurd total of 11 successful dribbles. Surely there was something wrong with that stat, to count 11 dribbles! But sure enough his highlight video confirms just how many times he left his marker eating dust. To put that in perspective, the highest total after Ibe in 4 EL games so far is 14, so to get 11 in one game is truly outstanding.

Ibe already showed signs of improvement against Bournemouth (nearly setting up a headed goal for Origi for example) as well as against Chelsea, so I don't think this was a flash in the pan performance. Whilst Indont think we should expect performances like this every game, he clearly has confidence and backing of the manager so I see no reason why he can't continue to put in good performances.

3. Clyne - our new attacking right back?

It was a real shame that his sprint up field in the second half wasn't rewarded by a better run from Benteke. That was superb. I don't think we've seen the best of Clyne yet, as once the players get to grips with Klopp's give and go style Clyne should benefit in a big way due to how good he is at getting into the box. I remember his performances early last season where he constantly penetrated the box inside and outside the winger to great effect, best exemplified by his goal at Anfield.

4. The most controlling performance we have seen since the days of Rafa?

I think we controlled the game against Bournemouth in a similar way, but given the circumstances (away in Russia) I think this was certainly up there. I can't even remember the last time we were this dominant away in Europe, but it surely must have been during the days of Rafa.

5. Skrtel - our new DM destroyer? :D

Who needs backup for Lucas when you have Lovren and Skrtel!? ;D
Iīve lots of slacking to make up for from when Real Life took over. Life as a freelancer can be rough :D So starting a few round tables, or a million of them, is the least I can do on behalf of the RAWK scribes.

The important things for me about the running in behind is, itīs something we are now working on. Which tells me Klopp/Buvac are now happy with the progress being made off the ball and are now working on how to be more penetrating with our possession. I thought it would be 6-8 weeks before we saw any shifts in our attacking while we worked on our shape and being compact. This is great news though for us. Itīs something we were not doing at all for the past season and a bit under Rodgers. This is one area where Lewandowski & Benteke will be very similar. Defenders are terrified of letting them go unmarked and so a CB would rather risk following him into somewhere they shouldnīt go, rather than let him go alone. The result is they end up creating little pockets of space for runners to get into and hurt opponents. The shift from this match to the last in that sense was huge. I already canīt wait to see what we do the next 2 games nevermind after the international break. Henderson will fucking LOVE playing in this side. I also think this is what made Origi look so poor initially. Nobody was getting in behind him when he was making the same movements to create space. Perhaps in a few weeks we wouldnīt look as toothless with him as a lone striker as before?

Ibe was fantastic to watch. Would be very curious why he all but stopped running the ball once we scored though considering the great success he was having with it.

Iīll be honest, Iīve been one of the most critical people of Clyne on here. I worried that he didnīt fit the mould of a Klopp fullback. I didnīt think he would be poor for us or let us down, I just figured it was a position we would upgrade on when Klopp solved other more pressing areas in squad building. BUT, he has already changed his game in the short time Klopp has been here. Heīs still a young guy and is clearly eager to learn and willing to do anything the manager asked of him. I think Iīve probably got this one wrong, in hindsight. Clyne will be fine *that rhymes*

I remember under Rafa going into European games against literally anybody at any stage of the competition and not having an concern, nevermind fear, about what would happen. Since then I was terrified of fucking Trabonspor under Roy and never quite got back to feeling at ease in Europe. Klopps going to bring that back, you can just tell.

My running joke about Klopp throwing CBīs into midfield for a little jog about at the end of games continues. In all seriousness though, I do wonder if Ilori was here, is it something he would do for 20 minutes to see what happens with him. He wouldnīt be getting much minutes at CB anyway right now but we badly need a destroyer to backup Lucas. Ilori probably wouldnīt read the game anything like as well in here, but has far more recovery pace and aerial ability.

Think we will buy someone in January now anyway making it a moot point. Klopp does love his CBīs in midfield and DMīs at CB though. Iloriīs ability on the ball & pace makes him the most likely candidate for an experiment out of him, Lovren and Skrtel.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #5 on: November 7, 2015, 01:35:16 pm »
Iīve lots of slacking to make up for from when Real Life took over. Life as a freelancer can be rough :D So starting a few round tables, or a million of them, is the least I can do on behalf of the RAWK scribes.

The important things for me about the running in behind is, itīs something we are now working on. Which tells me Klopp/Buvac are now happy with the progress being made off the ball and are now working on how to be more penetrating with our possession. I thought it would be 6-8 weeks before we saw any shifts in our attacking while we worked on our shape and being compact. This is great news though for us. Itīs something we were not doing at all for the past season and a bit under Rodgers. This is one area where Lewandowski & Benteke will be very similar. Defenders are terrified of letting them go unmarked and so a CB would rather risk following him into somewhere they shouldnīt go, rather than let him go alone. The result is they end up creating little pockets of space for runners to get into and hurt opponents. The shift from this match to the last in that sense was huge. I already canīt wait to see what we do the next 2 games nevermind after the international break. Henderson will fucking LOVE playing in this side. I also think this is what made Origi look so poor initially. Nobody was getting in behind him when he was making the same movements to create space. Perhaps in a few weeks we wouldnīt look as toothless with him as a lone striker as before?

Ibe was fantastic to watch. Would be very curious why he all but stopped running the ball once we scored though considering the great success he was having with it.

Iīll be honest, Iīve been one of the most critical people of Clyne on here. I worried that he didnīt fit the mould of a Klopp fullback. I didnīt think he would be poor for us or let us down, I just figured it was a position we would upgrade on when Klopp solved other more pressing areas in squad building. BUT, he has already changed his game in the short time Klopp has been here. Heīs still a young guy and is clearly eager to learn and willing to do anything the manager asked of him. I think Iīve probably got this one wrong, in hindsight. Clyne will be fine *that rhymes*

I remember under Rafa going into European games against literally anybody at any stage of the competition and not having an concern, nevermind fear, about what would happen. Since then I was terrified of fucking Trabonspor under Roy and never quite got back to feeling at ease in Europe. Klopps going to bring that back, you can just tell.

My running joke about Klopp throwing CBīs into midfield for a little jog about at the end of games continues. In all seriousness though, I do wonder if Ilori was here, is it something he would do for 20 minutes to see what happens with him. He wouldnīt be getting much minutes at CB anyway right now but we badly need a destroyer to backup Lucas. Ilori probably wouldnīt read the game anything like as well in here, but has far more recovery pace and aerial ability.

Think we will buy someone in January now anyway making it a moot point. Klopp does love his CBīs in midfield and DMīs at CB though. Iloriīs ability on the ball & pace makes him the most likely candidate for an experiment out of him, Lovren and Skrtel.
Glad you find time to contribute. As you know I always enjoy reading your insightful posts :)

Agree on the movement up front improving. It's interesting to see how Benteke's role has seemingly become increasingly well-defined. From doing a bit of everything before, he's now primarily coming short and playing quick passes and lay-offs to players running towards him or past him before getting into box himself. He did this amazingly well vs Chelsea, and his evolution is a very clear sign that Klopp and Buvac know exactly how to use him to get maximum use of his skill set. Players around him are also starting to learn how to pivot around him, and even Sakho is purposefully aiming well-timed balls at him for him to flick down to AM's around him. It's just much more in sync now.

Further to that, I do agree that Origi had a bit of a thankless task to hold the ball up before players learned how to support him effectively, but he'll probably start to be more effective soon once the team develops more of an understanding in the final 3rd.

As you say, Henderson is going to be a revelation in this team. I'm admittedly quite an optimist, but I think under Klopp's guidance he can become one of the very best midfielders in the league, and perhaps even pushing for double figures in goals. His forward runs are incredibly industrious and he's likely to get goals from quick one-two's on the counter in a similar manner to his 4-3 goal against Swansea in 2014.

Even if I never agreed with your concern about  Clyne in Klopp's system, I did see where you were coming from. His strength is defending, but I think that overshadows his skill going forwards somewhat.

I don't often criticise players myself so it's perhaps easy for me to take credit when players inevitably do well, but I'm taking great satisfaction from how well Benteke and Lovren have performed recently as they're two players I was very proactively positive about before and just after we signed them. I'm particularly glad to finally see Lovren playing in the sort of system I thought we were going to play when we signed him, and hopefully he can get a goal or do something extraordinary to get some credit from fans for sticking it out in the bad times and slowly turning it around.

Two other players who I did criticise recently who have surprised me in recent games are Skrtel and Allen. Skrtel always has one of those last-man or backtracking moments in him, but he's been largely rock-solid since Klopp arrived and hasn't looked uncomfortable in a high line at any time. Perhaps his time adjusting and playing it out from the back under Rodgers has been very beneficial. I was also vocal in my criticism of Allen, but he also impressed me vs Kazan with a very tidy and professional performance to help us dominate the midfield. I still think Allen is the most "expendable" of our midfielders, but performances like the one against Kazan won't hurt his chances.

I didn't quite expect Can to improve so quickly under Klopp as he's done, but he's getting better with every game. Against Southampton he was good, against Chelsea he was strong, and against Kazan he was dominant.

Speaking of Can, I said before Klopp arrived that I could see him tried at CB, but his performances in midfield probably make that highly unlikely. He's the one DM/CB I could see realistically swapping between those positions for a duration longer than a few minutes at the end of a game. Your comments on Ilori are interesting but as I have never seen Ilori play there I'm having a hard time seeing him adjusting to that position. That isn't to say that he doesn't have the natural abilities (ie. Height, speed, technique), it's just that it's a position that takes years to understand properly, and with extremely limited experience of playing there the likelihood of that happening outside of a late sub appearance there is minuscule. Would love it if he were to come back and take a place in the squad though, as he's a very elegant CB to watch.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2015, 01:40:19 pm by rickardinho1 »

Offline Sangria

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #6 on: November 7, 2015, 01:57:47 pm »
Something that we did in this game, that I noted was a hallmark of the Dortmund footage that I've seen, was the pinball style triangles to get the ball out of a tight area and to someone with space to look up. We've done it in the past of course, but the pace with which the ball is pinging around is unfamiliar. I mentioned something like it before during Dalglish's half season where we were snapping the ball around whilst pressing hard, a football of confusion where we rack up the tempo and increase the error rate on both sides, counting on superior skill and nerve to come out on top.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #7 on: November 7, 2015, 03:09:03 pm »
Something that we did in this game, that I noted was a hallmark of the Dortmund footage that I've seen, was the pinball style triangles to get the ball out of a tight area and to someone with space to look up. We've done it in the past of course, but the pace with which the ball is pinging around is unfamiliar. I mentioned something like it before during Dalglish's half season where we were snapping the ball around whilst pressing hard, a football of confusion where we rack up the tempo and increase the error rate on both sides, counting on superior skill and nerve to come out on top.

I noticed this too and I completely forgot to mention it.

I downloaded and watched about 10 randomly selected Dortmund games over his 7 seasons there again recently and you can see various bits of what made Dortmund so dangerous coming into our play already. The target man occupying the CBīs, overloading the CM area, overloading one of the fullbacks, quick triangles to get the ball into a more open part of the pitch, runs behind the defender. This on top of the compact foundation & the gegenpressing.

I thought it would take longer for these elements to be introduced. Then again perhaps I didnīt factor in the age of our squad. Young minds and bodies learn quicker and we have only 3 attacking players over 25 (Sturridge 26, Lallana 27, Milner 29). Itīs exciting to see it developing so well already. We are going to be a threat this season in every competition we are in. I donīt think anybody wants to play us now.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #8 on: November 7, 2015, 03:59:04 pm »
Funny that you mention overloading fullbacks, as I was thinking about that during the game. Was surprised to see both Milner and Ibe playing on the right for large parts of our attack in the first half, and that really helped Ibe find space to dominate.

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #9 on: November 7, 2015, 04:24:51 pm »
Speaking of Can, I said before Klopp arrived that I could see him tried at CB, but his performances in midfield probably make that highly unlikely. He's the one DM/CB I could see realistically swapping between those positions for a duration longer than a few minutes at the end of a game. Your comments on Ilori are interesting but as I have never seen Ilori play there I'm having a hard time seeing him adjusting to that position. That isn't to say that he doesn't have the natural abilities (ie. Height, speed, technique), it's just that it's a position that takes years to understand properly, and with extremely limited experience of playing there the likelihood of that happening outside of a late sub appearance there is minuscule. Would love it if he were to come back and take a place in the squad though, as he's a very elegant CB to watch.

Good post mate. On this one point though - itīs not that I want Ilori as a DM, or think he is suited to it, more than I think we are overstocked in CB and are solely missing an understudy to Lucas in the squad. So having someone who could play like Kehl in our squad right now would be massive. None of our current options are physically imposing enough or think solely about defence. Can would be closest but he has a touch of Gerrard about him. While this is a good thing in general, it means when you just want someone to sit and do nothing but protect the defence and track runners, Can isnīt the man you want there, at the moment at least, I think later in his career he will be outstanding for this role.

I think this is why we are seeing CBīs being thrown on for the last few minutes. Just to sit in front of the defence, offer some protection and have 1 more presence for the inevitable 2 or 3 set pieces you face right at the death. So I think if Ilori was here right now (or even more so, Jordan Williams) then they would be the player getting 10-15 minutes at the end of games. Or coming on for Lucas when games are won to rest him. Simply because while they arenīt ready to be a Premier League DM, nor maybe ever will be, the offer close to the skillset we need for that role and far more than both Skrtel and Lovren do at the moment.

It makes it very clear to me though that a DM will be the first thing addressed by Klopp. If Lucas was to be out for any significant period of time at the moment you would wonder how it would impact on us. Iīd be happy to pick up either a young deputy (like Real did with Casemiro, e.g. Neves) who we introduce gradually or someone to compete outright with Lucas or who could also be paired with him when needed (e.g. Xhaka).

I also wonder while we look at Skrtel and see much improvement.... does Klopp look at him with a fresh slate, ignoring everything before, and think "he is exactly what I want" or "heīs doing OK but I would like someone more like Hummels and at 29 I will start looking at that now rather than later". As I mentioned, Klopp started with the CBīs at Dortmund. They were his first 2 big money buys before he picked up Lewandowski a few years later. All managers tend to address the spine of the team before anything else. Do we think Klopp looks at Skrtel and seems him as his first choice CB in 3 years time? If not, I think he will upgrade. It will surprise people as he looks much better recently, but it just makes sense from a squad building perspective.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #10 on: November 7, 2015, 06:32:29 pm »
Good post mate. On this one point though - itīs not that I want Ilori as a DM, or think he is suited to it, more than I think we are overstocked in CB and are solely missing an understudy to Lucas in the squad. So having someone who could play like Kehl in our squad right now would be massive. None of our current options are physically imposing enough or think solely about defence. Can would be closest but he has a touch of Gerrard about him. While this is a good thing in general, it means when you just want someone to sit and do nothing but protect the defence and track runners, Can isnīt the man you want there, at the moment at least, I think later in his career he will be outstanding for this role.

I think this is why we are seeing CBīs being thrown on for the last few minutes. Just to sit in front of the defence, offer some protection and have 1 more presence for the inevitable 2 or 3 set pieces you face right at the death. So I think if Ilori was here right now (or even more so, Jordan Williams) then they would be the player getting 10-15 minutes at the end of games. Or coming on for Lucas when games are won to rest him. Simply because while they arenīt ready to be a Premier League DM, nor maybe ever will be, the offer close to the skillset we need for that role and far more than both Skrtel and Lovren do at the moment.

It makes it very clear to me though that a DM will be the first thing addressed by Klopp. If Lucas was to be out for any significant period of time at the moment you would wonder how it would impact on us. Iīd be happy to pick up either a young deputy (like Real did with Casemiro, e.g. Neves) who we introduce gradually or someone to compete outright with Lucas or who could also be paired with him when needed (e.g. Xhaka).

How about the DM who out-tackled every other competitor last season, by some distance, and who currently plays in the EPL? Of course, he's currently behind Lucas in the number of tackles made, but then that's a fact of life whenever Lucas plays regularly. You have the most competitive DMs in Europe who are tussling for the title of the best shielder of defences in European football. Then you have Lucas ahead of them.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #11 on: November 7, 2015, 07:01:27 pm »
It's funny that the name dropping, which players should be leaving, which ones are not good enough and who to replace them, still seems to be the most interesting thing to discuss which has been going on more or less the moment Rafa left. Pretty shallow isn't it, and I made no exception, at some point.

Before that, it was pretty much the opposite, more about discussing additions but a broad sense of believe in the players around with Rafa being the scapegoat. Since then, some players more or less became scapegoats themselves and the center of discussion as obviously nobody really took too much notion of the work and the quality of the manager which has been labeled as some sort of "work in transition", "work in progress" after "the mess Rafa left" etc.

You can only discuss the work of a manager when it's kind of impressive and making an impact which says a lot about the ones in charge after Rafa and a lot how unfair life can be as you can only be judged when sticking out your neck and trying to make something happen.

Those days of "invisible work" of the post Rafa aera are gladly over but I reckon it will still take some time until this habit of totally excluding the work of the manager stops and HIS believe in the squad finally takes over. Overall I find it to be way more interesting to discuss all those small details in work of a great manager anyway than complaining about the shortcomings of the players... 8)

Anybody noticed how he, Klopp excluded the youngsters in the beginning for having the right hierachy within the sqaud right from the start?
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #12 on: November 7, 2015, 08:41:24 pm »
Don't really have much to add but I'll just say I don't really see Henderson anywhere near the front three. We will need one winger which is a skill-set Henderson lacks, the #10 or the player behind the striker will be firmly taken by Firmino.

Roberto has the guile, skill, speed and pressing intensity in addition to goals all a level above Henderson which leaves only the left flank available. He might get a couple of games when we are rotating in Europe or Carling etc but I doubt he has enough in his locker to make that position his own as you were insinuating.

It will be fascinating to see how it all comes down though.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #13 on: November 7, 2015, 08:51:19 pm »
How about the DM who out-tackled every other competitor last season, by some distance, and who currently plays in the EPL? Of course, he's currently behind Lucas in the number of tackles made, but then that's a fact of life whenever Lucas plays regularly. You have the most competitive DMs in Europe who are tussling for the title of the best shielder of defences in European football. Then you have Lucas ahead of them.

OK I give, who are we talking about here? Matic?

For me, Lucas is the first name on the teamsheet every game. I do worry about him breaking down though if we donīt find a way to give him a rest at keep times. Those Europa League knockout games, League Cup Semiīs and FA cup matches all come thick and fast in early 2016 if we are still in all competitions.

At Dortmund his side always played with at least one destroyer, often two in difficult games. At the club at the moment, only Lucas fits that description of our current midfield options.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #14 on: November 7, 2015, 10:17:42 pm »
OK I give, who are we talking about here? Matic?

For me, Lucas is the first name on the teamsheet every game. I do worry about him breaking down though if we donīt find a way to give him a rest at keep times. Those Europa League knockout games, League Cup Semiīs and FA cup matches all come thick and fast in early 2016 if we are still in all competitions.

At Dortmund his side always played with at least one destroyer, often two in difficult games. At the club at the moment, only Lucas fits that description of our current midfield options.

Ngolo Kante, who was the most prolific tackler in Europe last season playing for Caen, and who has taken his form with him to Leicester City. Of course, while he is well regarded by Leicester fans for his ball winning prowess, he is only second in the list this season, behind you know who.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #15 on: November 7, 2015, 10:40:25 pm »
Good post mate. On this one point though - itīs not that I want Ilori as a DM, or think he is suited to it, more than I think we are overstocked in CB and are solely missing an understudy to Lucas in the squad. So having someone who could play like Kehl in our squad right now would be massive. None of our current options are physically imposing enough or think solely about defence. Can would be closest but he has a touch of Gerrard about him. While this is a good thing in general, it means when you just want someone to sit and do nothing but protect the defence and track runners, Can isnīt the man you want there, at the moment at least, I think later in his career he will be outstanding for this role.

I think this is why we are seeing CBīs being thrown on for the last few minutes. Just to sit in front of the defence, offer some protection and have 1 more presence for the inevitable 2 or 3 set pieces you face right at the death. So I think if Ilori was here right now (or even more so, Jordan Williams) then they would be the player getting 10-15 minutes at the end of games. Or coming on for Lucas when games are won to rest him. Simply because while they arenīt ready to be a Premier League DM, nor maybe ever will be, the offer close to the skillset we need for that role and far more than both Skrtel and Lovren do at the moment.

It makes it very clear to me though that a DM will be the first thing addressed by Klopp. If Lucas was to be out for any significant period of time at the moment you would wonder how it would impact on us. Iīd be happy to pick up either a young deputy (like Real did with Casemiro, e.g. Neves) who we introduce gradually or someone to compete outright with Lucas or who could also be paired with him when needed (e.g. Xhaka).

I also wonder while we look at Skrtel and see much improvement.... does Klopp look at him with a fresh slate, ignoring everything before, and think "he is exactly what I want" or "heīs doing OK but I would like someone more like Hummels and at 29 I will start looking at that now rather than later". As I mentioned, Klopp started with the CBīs at Dortmund. They were his first 2 big money buys before he picked up Lewandowski a few years later. All managers tend to address the spine of the team before anything else. Do we think Klopp looks at Skrtel and seems him as his first choice CB in 3 years time? If not, I think he will upgrade. It will surprise people as he looks much better recently, but it just makes sense from a squad building perspective.
Great post, as always.

I agree that we lack a "shut down" player, or a "closer" if you will. Someone we could bring on to just kill a game off. Lucas did that for us vs Kazan but when he's playing there's no alternative. As you say Can doesn't track runners enough to be given that responsibility, but he'll surely develop those traits with time.

What do you think it is that would make Ilori a much better as a late-game DM than Lovren or Skrtel? If what you're looking for is a destroyer them surely someone more destructive and tackle-happy like Lovren or physical like Skrtel would be better suited than Ilori, who doesn't strike me as being particularly destructive.

You and I agree completely on the DM situation, except maybe that adding a fullback is perhaps of equal or more urgency. A young guy to ease in, or a slightly older player closer to the finished product to share duties is ideal. Neves and Xhaka are both great players, though Xhaka might be more mature physically for the PL to make an immediate impact (though Neves isn't a slouch either).

Good points in Skrtel. I think Klopp sees Skrtel as a really solid  CB to use this season, particularly as Gomez is out, but Inthink Klopp will want to plan for the future a bit regardless of what he thinks of Skrtel. Toure will leave in the summer, so that leaves us with Skrtel-Sakho-Lovren-Gomez, which is perhaps fine for another season (particularly if you add Ilori too), but I think Skrtel is the next one out, either next summer or the year after.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2015, 10:46:53 pm by rickardinho1 »

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #16 on: November 7, 2015, 11:19:12 pm »
Great post, as always.

I agree that we lack a "shut down" player, or a "closer" if you will. Someone we could bring on to just kill a game off. Lucas did that for us vs Kazan but when he's playing there's no alternative. As you say Can doesn't track runners enough to be given that responsibility, but he'll surely develop those traits with time.

What do you think it is that would make Ilori a much better as a late-game DM than Lovren or Skrtel? If what you're looking for is a destroyer them surely someone more destructive and tackle-happy like Lovren or physical like Skrtel would be better suited than Ilori, who doesn't strike me as being particularly destructive.

You and I agree completely on the DM situation, except maybe that adding a fullback is perhaps of equal or more urgency. A young guy to ease in, or a slightly older player closer to the finished product to share duties is ideal. Neves and Xhaka are both great players, though Xhaka might be more mature physically for the PL to make an immediate impact (though Neves isn't a slouch either).

Good points in Skrtel. I think Klopp sees Skrtel as a really solid  CB to use this season, particularly as Gomez is out, but Inthink Klopp will want to plan for the future a bit regardless of what he thinks of Skrtel. Toure will leave in the summer, so that leaves us with Skrtel-Sakho-Lovren-Gomez, which is perhaps fine for another season (particularly if you add Ilori too), but I think Skrtel is the next one out, either next summer or the year after.

If tracking runners is the duty that we're looking for in an alternative DM, I wonder if a defensively minded FB might be more suited for multi-skilling, in the absence of a specialist. Someone like Flanagan. But then again, especially if Ilori comes back, we'll have a surplus of CBs, but not so much of FBs. And furthermore, Klopp so far has preferred to use CBs as an additional body, so we'll have to see what his ideas are.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #17 on: November 7, 2015, 11:45:42 pm »
The beauty of a young squad like ours is the response to tactical instruction. You can tell the players respond to what they've been told to do, they don't have 10 years of exp that's telling them in the back of their mind "you should do this" they've only got what they've been told to do.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #18 on: November 7, 2015, 11:59:35 pm »
Before I start the usual nitpicking, I’d like to say these are very good posts.
It is for this reason I have thought Henderson may very well be in contention for one of the forward 3 positions.
A lot of people have said this, but it might not be so clear cut. These are the players Klopp used regularly at Dortmund wide in the 3 of his 4-2-3-1:

Mkhitaryan, Reus, Grosskreutz, Aubameyang, Kampl, Kuba, Hofmann, Perisic, Gotze, Bittencourt.

Not sure there’s too much that’s Henderson-esque about any of them. I think it’s more likely he’ll be deployed in central midfield. We’ll see.

The whole question of how highly Klopp values width from his AMs is intriguing. In his most successful years at Dortmund from 2010-2013, at least one of Grosskreutz/Kuba/Perisic/Bittencourt started every league game bar one. Two of them started more than a third of those matches.

But after that there was a definite move away from orthodox wide players – Reus was brought in in 2012, Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang in 2013, Kampl in January 2015. In part this was due to circumstance – Kuba had a series of long-term injuries, Mkhitaryan was bought as a Gotze replacement but didn’t work out as a #10 so was shifted wide.

People are right to point out the dearth of wide attacking options in the squad, but how much it will bother Klopp is less clear. He might be OK with Ibe, Milner (who’s probably best described as ‘wide-ish’) and one or more of Ojo/Wilson/Kent (I'm assuming these three can be recalled pretty much any time).

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #19 on: November 8, 2015, 11:25:10 am »
If tracking runners is the duty that we're looking for in an alternative DM, I wonder if a defensively minded FB might be more suited for multi-skilling, in the absence of a specialist. Someone like Flanagan. But then again, especially if Ilori comes back, we'll have a surplus of CBs, but not so much of FBs. And furthermore, Klopp so far has preferred to use CBs as an additional body, so we'll have to see what his ideas are.

This is actually what happens in Brazil. DM & FB becomes interchangeable. If you are a DM with some pace, youīll play at full back. If you are a full back with decent strength, you will play at DM. FC Porto love snapping up the ones that are good at both roles when they look ready to move to Europe and pick up an Portuguese passport. Like Danilo (now at Madrid) and Alex Sandro (now at Juventus).  I remember watching Santos in the Copa Libertadores final where he (Danilo) played 1 leg in DM and the other at RB.

I believe it also happened to Fabio Coentrão at Madrid when they had a midfield crisis some seasons back, although could be wrong.

What do you think it is that would make Ilori a much better as a late-game DM than Lovren or Skrtel? If what you're looking for is a destroyer them surely someone more destructive and tackle-happy like Lovren or physical like Skrtel would be better suited than Ilori, who doesn't strike me as being particularly destructive.

I wasnīt particularly thinking this when I replied to be honest. More that out of all the options, Ilori would be the most likely to have a regularly spot on the bench. The others are starting CBs at the moment. So if we are going to ask someone in the squad to play there in training, get used to the role etc it would be Ilori. As a younger player, he is likely to learn quicker and adapt easier. There is nothing between them now because none of them have played there. So their starting points are pretty much equal.

Also if, for whatever reason, we wanted a full 90 minutes out of someone there, Iloriīs ability on the ball and recovery speed appeals to me in there. Lucas doesnīt need speed as much anymore because he reads the game quicker than anyone on the pitch. Likewise if someone is going to be receiving passes into their feet with the back to our own goal in midfield, the idea of either Skrtel or Lovren doing that for 90 minutes scares the shit out of me. Ilori not so much :D
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #20 on: November 8, 2015, 11:32:24 am »
Before I start the usual nitpicking, I’d like to say these are very good posts. A lot of people have said this, but it might not be so clear cut. These are the players Klopp used regularly at Dortmund wide in the 3 of his 4-2-3-1:

Mkhitaryan, Reus, Grosskreutz, Aubameyang, Kampl, Kuba, Hofmann, Perisic, Gotze, Bittencourt.

Not sure there’s too much that’s Henderson-esque about any of them. I think it’s more likely he’ll be deployed in central midfield. We’ll see.

The whole question of how highly Klopp values width from his AMs is intriguing. In his most successful years at Dortmund from 2010-2013, at least one of Grosskreutz/Kuba/Perisic/Bittencourt started every league game bar one. Two of them started more than a third of those matches.

But after that there was a definite move away from orthodox wide players – Reus was brought in in 2012, Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang in 2013, Kampl in January 2015. In part this was due to circumstance – Kuba had a series of long-term injuries, Mkhitaryan was bought as a Gotze replacement but didn’t work out as a #10 so was shifted wide.

People are right to point out the dearth of wide attacking options in the squad, but how much it will bother Klopp is less clear. He might be OK with Ibe, Milner (who’s probably best described as ‘wide-ish’) and one or more of Ojo/Wilson/Kent (I'm assuming these three can be recalled pretty much any time).

Whilst I agree entirely that Henderson is different to those listed, a similar glance at Klopps CM options gives me the exact same conclusion. Henderson isnīt really like any of them. to be honest I think the same of Coutinho too. They donīt seem perfectly suited to any typical roles in Klopps 4-2-3-1 formation but have skills he will want to work with that apply to several positions on the pitch.

That said, 2 years ago we talked about how Coutinho was totally ineffective with his middle-long range shooting. Now he is a real threat there. He is someone who will work his ass off at whatever part of his game is weakest. So if Klopp is drilling him to start making more runs in behind or beyond the CF when he drops deep.... I imagine itīs something that Coutinho will perfect in time. Once he does the premier league is fucked. :D

EDIT:- Oh and I think Henderson would most likely play centrally if he is involved as part of the 3.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2015, 11:34:51 am by BabuYagu »
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #21 on: November 8, 2015, 12:23:41 pm »
This is actually what happens in Brazil. DM & FB becomes interchangeable. If you are a DM with some pace, youīll play at full back. If you are a full back with decent strength, you will play at DM. FC Porto love snapping up the ones that are good at both roles when they look ready to move to Europe and pick up an Portuguese passport. Like Danilo (now at Madrid) and Alex Sandro (now at Juventus).  I remember watching Santos in the Copa Libertadores final where he (Danilo) played 1 leg in DM and the other at RB.

I believe it also happened to Fabio Coentrão at Madrid when they had a midfield crisis some seasons back, although could be wrong.

I wasnīt particularly thinking this when I replied to be honest. More that out of all the options, Ilori would be the most likely to have a regularly spot on the bench. The others are starting CBs at the moment. So if we are going to ask someone in the squad to play there in training, get used to the role etc it would be Ilori. As a younger player, he is likely to learn quicker and adapt easier. There is nothing between them now because none of them have played there. So their starting points are pretty much equal.

Also if, for whatever reason, we wanted a full 90 minutes out of someone there, Iloriīs ability on the ball and recovery speed appeals to me in there. Lucas doesnīt need speed as much anymore because he reads the game quicker than anyone on the pitch. Likewise if someone is going to be receiving passes into their feet with the back to our own goal in midfield, the idea of either Skrtel or Lovren doing that for 90 minutes scares the shit out of me. Ilori not so much :D
One of Skrtel and Lovren will be on the bench most of the time anyways, and imo it makes little sense to reserve a spot on the bench for yet another CB.

Also, I thought you were talking about 10-15 min appearances at the end of games rather than 90 mins?

You make some good points about Ilori's skill set an adaptability which I agree with, but in theory this idea sounds a bit too much like square pegs in round holes. Why would we play a CB at DM for 15 or 90 minutes when the CB has never played there and we could easily just go out and get someone suitable? If Henderson was on the bench rncould easily do that job too and also offers height, same with Can (and Lucas obviously) - and both of them have actually played there.

Btw, good point on Brazilian FB's/DM's. Brazilians are usually really flexible generally, and actually most fullbacks will actually be converted wingers. In Brazil there is little distinction between a winger and a fullback ("lateral") so it's not as big a deal as it would be in Europe. For example, moving a player like Cheryshev to LB would be odd for Europeans, but in Brazil it would be completely natural. There are loads of examples, like Cafu, Roberto Carlos. Cicinho Marcelo, etc. Pretty much 90% of Brazilian fullbacks started as more attacking players, hence why they understand the attacking side of the game so well.

Whilst I agree entirely that Henderson is different to those listed, a similar glance at Klopps CM options gives me the exact same conclusion. Henderson isnīt really like any of them. to be honest I think the same of Coutinho too. They donīt seem perfectly suited to any typical roles in Klopps 4-2-3-1 formation but have skills he will want to work with that apply to several positions on the pitch.

That said, 2 years ago we talked about how Coutinho was totally ineffective with his middle-long range shooting. Now he is a real threat there. He is someone who will work his ass off at whatever part of his game is weakest. So if Klopp is drilling him to start making more runs in behind or beyond the CF when he drops deep.... I imagine itīs something that Coutinho will perfect in time. Once he does the premier league is fucked. :D

EDIT:- Oh and I think Henderson would most likely play centrally if he is involved as part of the 3.
Interesting view on Henderson. I certainly see where you're coming from, but I think Henderson's size and long-distance running lends itself better to the box-to-box/No.8 role. That said, I'm sure we'll see him used further forward too at some stage as Klopp varies his tactics, just as we've seen Milner alternate between the side of the 3 in a 4321 and 4231 since Klopp arrived.

Henderson is perfect for that alternating role to the right of Lucas. His one-touch passing as the "1" in a 1-2 is underrated too, as he likes to do neat back heels around the box, so I think he'd be useful as the No.10 too at times. As I said though, I think his main use will be in the no.8 role most of the time, and Firmino/Lallana/Coutinho should be the 10's more often than not.

Come to think of it, Milner was the 10 for 15 minutes at Chelsea at the start of the second half before being subbed off, so maybe that's a role Henderson gets too at times. We shall see.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2015, 12:44:29 pm by rickardinho1 »

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #22 on: November 8, 2015, 01:04:00 pm »
Before I start the usual nitpicking, I’d like to say these are very good posts. A lot of people have said this, but it might not be so clear cut. These are the players Klopp used regularly at Dortmund wide in the 3 of his 4-2-3-1:

Mkhitaryan, Reus, Grosskreutz, Aubameyang, Kampl, Kuba, Hofmann, Perisic, Gotze, Bittencourt.

Not sure there’s too much that’s Henderson-esque about any of them. I think it’s more likely he’ll be deployed in central midfield. We’ll see.

The whole question of how highly Klopp values width from his AMs is intriguing. In his most successful years at Dortmund from 2010-2013, at least one of Grosskreutz/Kuba/Perisic/Bittencourt started every league game bar one. Two of them started more than a third of those matches.

But after that there was a definite move away from orthodox wide players – Reus was brought in in 2012, Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang in 2013, Kampl in January 2015. In part this was due to circumstance – Kuba had a series of long-term injuries, Mkhitaryan was bought as a Gotze replacement but didn’t work out as a #10 so was shifted wide.

People are right to point out the dearth of wide attacking options in the squad, but how much it will bother Klopp is less clear. He might be OK with Ibe, Milner (who’s probably best described as ‘wide-ish’) and one or more of Ojo/Wilson/Kent (I'm assuming these three can be recalled pretty much any time).

Why does everyone seem to assume that Klopp needs a specific type of player in each position, in order to make his system work?

He has already said that he has the right tools and when he moved from Mainz to BRB, he didn't take the same player types to the new job.

Basically, Klopp has already demonstrated that whilst he has a system that he aims for, he will adapt the system to the players available and then slowly change BOTH (system and player's playing style) over a longer period of time.

This is what makes him a great manager for me - He is not so set in his ways that he HAS to have a certain player type in certain positions (see Hodgson bringing in the likes of PFK).  On the other hand, nor is he going to rip up his system to accomodate the players playing the way they were under Brendan.

This is a man with one of the most active football-management brains in the business, who can see not only what he needs both the players and the system to be right now, but how to adapt both over the coming year(s), to get the absolute best out of both.

Frankly, I think that anyone who assumes that {Player X} is "not his type of {name your position}" is short-changing Klopp's abilities.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #23 on: November 8, 2015, 01:05:08 pm »
One of Skrtel and Lovren will be on the bench most of the time anyways, and imo it makes little sense to reserve a spot on the bench for yet another CB.

Also, I thought you were talking about 10-15 min appearances at the end of games rather than 90 mins?

You make some good points about Ilori's skill set an adaptability which I agree with, but in theory this idea sounds a bit too much like square pegs in round holes. Why would we play a CB at DM for 15 or 90 minutes when the CB has never played there and we could easily just go out and get someone suitable? If Henderson was on the bench rncould easily do that job too and also offers height, same with Can (and Lucas obviously) - and both of them have actually played there.

Btw, good point on Brazilian FB's/DM's. Brazilians are usually really flexible generally, and actually most fullbacks will actually be converted wingers. In Brazil there is little distinction between a winger and a fullback ("lateral") so it's not as big a deal as it would be in Europe. For example, moving a player like Cheryshev to LB would be odd for Europeans, but in Brazil it would be completely natural. There are loads of examples, like Cafu, Roberto Carlos. Cicinho Marcelo, etc. Pretty much 90% of Brazilian fullbacks started as more attacking players, hence why they understand the attacking side of the game so well.

I think you are misunderstanding, Iīm not talking about this as a solution or something we should do. I was saying from the beginning IF he was here, I think this is what would happen.

Also regarding Skrtel/Lovren/Sakho - as starting CBīs you want them always training as CBīs. Which makes it harder for them to adapt to playing even occasional minutes in midfield. However, had Ilori been here, he could have trained as a DM making it easier to adapt.

I have zero desire to make Ilori a DM, just stating that had he been here, it may have been a temporary solution to a temporary problem (weīll buy someone for this role in january I am sure) in terms of having another destroyer in the squad. As for the 90mins - I was talking about "if it was needed, for whatever reason". It wonīt be needed, for any reason, because Ilori isnīt here and none of this will ever happen.

I was just talking about what MAY have happened had Ilori been here when Klopp arrived and he realised he had lots of CBīs, 1 destroyer and needed to use a CB as one in games to make up for this shortfall.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #24 on: November 8, 2015, 01:11:56 pm »
I think you are misunderstanding, Iīm not talking about this as a solution or something we should do. I was saying from the beginning IF he was here, I think this is what would happen.

Also regarding Skrtel/Lovren/Sakho - as starting CBīs you want them always training as CBīs. Which makes it harder for them to adapt to playing even occasional minutes in midfield. However, had Ilori been here, he could have trained as a DM making it easier to adapt.

I have zero desire to make Ilori a DM, just stating that had he been here, it may have been a temporary solution to a temporary problem (weīll buy someone for this role in january I am sure) in terms of having another destroyer in the squad. As for the 90mins - I was talking about "if it was needed, for whatever reason". It wonīt be needed, for any reason, because Ilori isnīt here and none of this will ever happen.

I was just talking about what MAY have happened had Ilori been here when Klopp arrived and he realised he had lots of CBīs, 1 destroyer and needed to use a CB as one in games to make up for this shortfall.
Ah now I'm with you amigo! Thanks for clarifying, makes perfect sense :)

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #25 on: November 8, 2015, 01:26:14 pm »
Why does everyone seem to assume that Klopp needs a specific type of player in each position, in order to make his system work?

He has already said that he has the right tools and when he moved from Mainz to BRB, he didn't take the same player types to the new job.

Basically, Klopp has already demonstrated that whilst he has a system that he aims for, he will adapt the system to the players available and then slowly change BOTH (system and player's playing style) over a longer period of time.

This is what makes him a great manager for me - He is not so set in his ways that he HAS to have a certain player type in certain positions (see Hodgson bringing in the likes of PFK).  On the other hand, nor is he going to rip up his system to accomodate the players playing the way they were under Brendan.

This is a man with one of the most active football-management brains in the business, who can see not only what he needs both the players and the system to be right now, but how to adapt both over the coming year(s), to get the absolute best out of both.

Frankly, I think that anyone who assumes that {Player X} is "not his type of {name your position}" is short-changing Klopp's abilities.

Actually, he had a huge turnover of players in his first 3 years in Dortmund. He also does need his players to have a certain skillset to work best within his system. Thatīs not a slight on him, itīs pretty much true of all coaches at the top level. How did Ibrahimovic look fitting into Barcelonaīs system for example?

Thatīs not to say that he canīt use what he has. Of course he will. But he will also see areas in his squad where he will think (for example) "if I had more height in central midfield, we would fare better as our pressing results in a lot of long ball landing in that area from the GK/FBs."

Thus, he upgraded the 5'6 and 5'7 central midfielders at Dortmund to players all closer to, or above, 6'. Itīs not to say he will never play Allen there because he is only 5'6. Clearly he will, and has. But when the day comes to sign another body for CM, one of the things he will want from that player is height. Likewise when he is targetting new players for the forward areas - he will look at physical attributes first before technical ones. Although ideally he will get players with both, like Mkhitaryan, Reus and Aubameyang.

He will use what he has. Later, when he has the freedom to get any players he wants, then he will start targeting specific players with certain skill for the roles. Rafa did the same thing too btw. Every coach does.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #26 on: November 8, 2015, 01:42:46 pm »
If tracking runners is the duty that we're looking for in an alternative DM, I wonder if a defensively minded FB might be more suited for multi-skilling, in the absence of a specialist. Someone like Flanagan. But then again, especially if Ilori comes back, we'll have a surplus of CBs, but not so much of FBs. And furthermore, Klopp so far has preferred to use CBs as an additional body, so we'll have to see what his ideas are.

I think 'body' is the key word. From what I understand at Dortmund he preffered big lads in midfield and his choice of Can to partner Lucas may indicate that as well. So maybe a DM that has some size will be what he opts for. Putting Lovren and Skrtel in midfield, granted for a few minutes only, is partially down to wanting an imposing body in the centre.

I don't think Flanagan would fit because of that despite his physicality. Although God knows we'd all love for Flanagan to succeed when he comes back this season. I'm still very hopeful that he can adjust like so many players have and earn a place as a wingback in Klopp's system. I think his passing ability should help him earn that spot.


I like the idea of having a FB that can play in midfield. When he was healthy, Rafa would slot Fabio Aurelio into midfield occasionally.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2015, 01:50:53 pm by Giono »
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #27 on: November 8, 2015, 01:46:13 pm »
Actually, he had a huge turnover of players in his first 3 years in Dortmund. He also does need his players to have a certain skillset to work best within his system. Thatīs not a slight on him, itīs pretty much true of all coaches at the top level. How did Ibrahimovic look fitting into Barcelonaīs system for example?

Thatīs not to say that he canīt use what he has. Of course he will. But he will also see areas in his squad where he will think (for example) "if I had more height in central midfield, we would fare better as our pressing results in a lot of long ball landing in that area from the GK/FBs."

Thus, he upgraded the 5'6 and 5'7 central midfielders at Dortmund to players all closer to, or above, 6'. Itīs not to say he will never play Allen there because he is only 5'6. Clearly he will, and has. But when the day comes to sign another body for CM, one of the things he will want from that player is height. Likewise when he is targetting new players for the forward areas - he will look at physical attributes first before technical ones. Although ideally he will get players with both, like Mkhitaryan, Reus and Aubameyang.

He will use what he has. Later, when he has the freedom to get any players he wants, then he will start targeting specific players with certain skill for the roles. Rafa did the same thing too btw. Every coach does.

I just want to say i dont look at the minutia of any game myself i just look at elements in the game, like Attitude and Style , but i really enjoy your posts they are always thought provoking.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #28 on: November 8, 2015, 01:46:43 pm »
. Likewise when he is targetting new players for the forward areas - he will look at physical attributes first before technical ones. Although ideally he will get players with both, like Mkhitaryan, Reus and Aubameyang.

Hate to sound negative during times like these especially when it comes to players but this is where the sticking point with Henderson comes. We still have great pulling power as we've seen and we don't need to shop gradually anymore. We can attract players that are a good blend of these two from the get-go.

Coutinho and Firmino are grafters as well as being a cut above Henderson when it comes to the final third. That is not a knock on Henderson who is quite 'cute' himself but will need some work on the training ground if he has to get near their level. Personally, if Henderson makes himself a main-stay in the starting 11, I see him taking Can's role. We will see, I suppose.

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #29 on: November 8, 2015, 02:18:18 pm »
Hate to sound negative during times like these especially when it comes to players but this is where the sticking point with Henderson comes. We still have great pulling power as we've seen and we don't need to shop gradually anymore. We can attract players that are a good blend of these two from the get-go.

Coutinho and Firmino are grafters as well as being a cut above Henderson when it comes to the final third. That is not a knock on Henderson who is quite 'cute' himself but will need some work on the training ground if he has to get near their level. Personally, if Henderson makes himself a main-stay in the starting 11, I see him taking Can's role. We will see, I suppose.

Long term, Henderson and Can might be the perfect CM partnership for Klopp. Can will stop wanting to be the action man at some point and be content with a more defensive minded role and learn discipline in terms of tracking runners. Playing alongside Lucas in this regard will be a fantastic time of learning for him Iīm sure.
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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #30 on: November 8, 2015, 02:57:48 pm »

Actually, he had a huge turnover of players in his first 3 years in Dortmund. He also does need his players to have a certain skillset to work best within his system. Thatīs not a slight on him, itīs pretty much true of all coaches at the top level. How did Ibrahimovic look fitting into Barcelonaīs system for example?

Thatīs not to say that he canīt use what he has. Of course he will. But he will also see areas in his squad where he will think (for example) "if I had more height in central midfield, we would fare better as our pressing results in a lot of long ball landing in that area from the GK/FBs."

Thus, he upgraded the 5'6 and 5'7 central midfielders at Dortmund to players all closer to, or above, 6'. Itīs not to say he will never play Allen there because he is only 5'6. Clearly he will, and has. But when the day comes to sign another body for CM, one of the things he will want from that player is height. Likewise when he is targetting new players for the forward areas - he will look at physical attributes first before technical ones. Although ideally he will get players with both, like Mkhitaryan, Reus and Aubameyang.

He will use what he has. Later, when he has the freedom to get any players he wants, then he will start targeting specific players with certain skill for the roles. Rafa did the same thing too btw. Every coach does.

Which is pretty much what I was saying.

Some posters on here are talking as though certain players will either never get a game or are cast-iron certainties to be shown the door almost immediately.

Credit needs to be given to both the manager and the players themselves in respect of the fact that BOTH can and (most) will adapt to the best way to play right now.

Following that, I'm also 100% certain that he will bring in players that will improve us, which is precisely what we want and need him to do.

I'm just fed up with people who seem to believe that neither the players (Henderson in this case - who has already disproved the theory by going from surplus to captain under BR) nor Klopp are either willing or capable of adapting to each other in order to get an immediate improvement in both.
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Offline warrenpe

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Re: Round Table: Rubin Kazan 0 - Klopp's Liverpool 1
« Reply #31 on: November 8, 2015, 03:39:17 pm »
Why does everyone seem to assume that Klopp needs a specific type of player in each position, in order to make his system work?
I was just pointing out that Klopp favoured three types of players wide in the 3 at Dortmund – orthodox wide players; #10s who could function in a wider role, and who would sometimes switch positions with whoever was playing centrally; and the Reus/Mkhitaryan type. Henderson doesn’t seem to fit in with any of these.

It turns out BY was talking about Henderson being deployed centrally, so it was a case of crossed wires anyway.
He will use what he has. Later, when he has the freedom to get any players he wants, then he will start targeting specific players with certain skill for the roles. Rafa did the same thing too btw. Every coach does.

Completely agree with all of this.