Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 884178 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3800 on: February 24, 2017, 06:31:50 pm »
Thats pretty much what I said this morning. No way was Stoke a supremely positive result and Labour should be worrying about the Tories not UKIP.

If the Tories had bothered with Stoke, they very well would have won.

The graphic shows it quite clearly:

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Offline Bunter

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3801 on: February 24, 2017, 06:59:56 pm »
View from Copeland Labour supporters.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/24/the-view-from-copeland-lifelong-labour-voters-want-corbyn-out

No one wants to vote for him, he hasn't a pray of ever getting elected. Aside from a lot the ill-informed opinion in there and the way his character and perception is seemingly more important than his actually policies, he's fucked. Completely failed to engage with the electorate and no one seems to have a clue what his aims and intentions are, there is no way back for him.

Is there not a candidate between a Corbyn and Blairite that has any appeal?   

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3802 on: February 24, 2017, 07:06:42 pm »
I'm thinking of binning it off but maybe you guys are right, maybe it is time to be ever more involved? Yelling on the sidelines doesn't seem to do anything.

 I mean I was a member since my teens. Binned it off when Corbyn came in because I knew my aims and the aims of the leadership were so very different and more than anything, I didn't want those cretins wasting my money on SWP rallies and what not.

 Genuinely feel sensible people should get involved again though. I'm really considering it. The remaining Corbynistas in here are perfect examples of just why the party is fucked, frankly. The fact the nonsense about the establishment being "SCAAAARED!!!" of him tells you everything you need to know about the standard of the membership.

 They're delusional. And they're in charge.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 07:09:30 pm by TravisBickle »
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3803 on: February 24, 2017, 07:07:45 pm »
I mean I was a member since my teens. Binned it off when Corbyn came in because I knew my aims and the aims of the leadership were so very different and more than anything, I didn't want those cretins wasting my money on SWP rallies and what not.

 Genuinely feel sensible people should get involved again though. I'm really considering it. The remaining Corbynistas in here are perfect examples of just why the party is fucked, frankly. The fact the nonsense about the establishment being "SCAAAARED!!!" of him tells you everything you need to know about the standard of the membership.

Whats the point? Its run now by a cartel, albeit a large one. There isnt really a strong leader there anyway.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3804 on: February 24, 2017, 07:09:26 pm »
I mean I was a member since my teens. Binned it off when Corbyn came in because I knew my aims and the aims of the leadership were so very different and more than anything, I didn't want those cretins wasting my money on SWP rallies and what not.

 Genuinely feel sensible people should get involved again though. I'm really considering it. The remaining Corbynistas in here are perfect examples of just why the party is fucked, frankly. The fact the nonsense about the establishment being "SCAAAARED!!!" of him tells you everything you need to know about the standard of the membership.
there would be a delightful irony if those who infiltrated the party in the last year got infiltrated back out

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3805 on: February 24, 2017, 07:10:04 pm »
Whats the point? Its run now by a cartel, albeit a large one. There isnt really a strong leader there anyway.

 Just about anyone is better than the fucking fraudulent coward in charge right now. You could geninely class him as an invertebrate.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3806 on: February 24, 2017, 07:20:42 pm »
Cat Smith deserves a seat on the Trump cabinet.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3807 on: February 24, 2017, 07:44:40 pm »
#corbynmustgo trending on Twitter.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3808 on: February 24, 2017, 07:45:00 pm »
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

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Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3809 on: February 24, 2017, 07:45:10 pm »
#corbynmustgo trending on Twitter.

As if it will result in anything.

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3810 on: February 24, 2017, 07:48:38 pm »


1983 was a boundary change. 1935 was when Labour won the seat.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3811 on: February 24, 2017, 07:51:49 pm »
1983 was a boundary change. 1935 was when Labour won the seat.

I'm well aware of the semantics.  I find 1983 the more significant date, seeing it was the high point of Thatcherism, given the current Tory goverment is so utterly pathetic and incompetent it has Boris Fucking Johnson as its foreign minister.

That's what Jeremy Corbyn managed to lose to.  He's a political pygmy next to Michael Foot. 
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Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3812 on: February 24, 2017, 08:19:12 pm »
#corbynmustgo trending on Twitter.

But Labour are much better on social media than in the traditional media. So they keep telling us anyway.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3813 on: February 24, 2017, 08:37:16 pm »
Interesting.....
Abbott, Long Bailey and Rayner haven't come out to support Corbyn today...

It's possible he's lost their backing...  That would be an interesting development indeed..
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3814 on: February 24, 2017, 08:43:53 pm »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/copeland-by-election-churchillian-corbyn-knows-that-it-is-only-through-failure-that-you-find-success-a7598416.html
Quote
Copeland by-election: Churchillian Corbyn knows that it is only through failure that you find success

Friday 24 February 2017 17:15 GMT
As Winston Churchill, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby, or any other of the illustrious names that proudly fill the “success” sections of famous quote websites will tell you, failure is a noble thing so long as you learn from it.

And so we must, on this historically bad day for Labour, be prepared to praise the sheer guts with which it has carried out its immediate and non squeamish post-mortem, and in the full glare of the public spotlight too.

For it has been historic. Indeed, when future historians come to write their many volumes on the mad times in which we now live, I for one hope that at least one in their number has the wisdom to begin their tale on February 23rd, 2017, the day when, as Jeremy Corbyn correctly diagnosed, the people finally rose up against the “political establishment that has let them down” so badly and voted for the Tories.

Only to the superficial does Labour losing a by-election whilst in opposition, in a seat it has not lost in 80 years, appear to be a disaster. In fact, this was the day that Corbyn and his bold new grassroots movement set themselves inexorably on the path to greatness, with such courage and ingenuity in the face of such a setback.

When the Labour leader was asked this morning, hours after losing a seat his party has held for 80 years, whether he “ever wondered whether the problem might be me,” his response was instructive. Lesser men might have reached for the simple answer, “yes”, but Corbyn is courageous enough to hold out and search for the deeper, truer lessons. He gave an equally simple reply: “no.”

Indeed the commendations must be shared around. Well done too to John McDonnell, who within hours of defeat, the wounds still raw, had the wisdom to tour the TV studios and wisely put the blame on “Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson.” Corbyn is an exceptional leader, but no party leader has won a by-election in the same week in which the last-but-three leader from a decade ago has given a speech containing a lone hostile sentence, and that is a rule to which there can be no exception. (Had, in 1996, Michael Foot spoken out against Blair, history might have been very different).

And Paul Mason, too, as awake as ever from the false consciousness that still blinds lesser minds and lesser voters, was absolutely correct in his analysis that “Nobody can claim losing Copeland was Jeremy Corbyn’s ‘fault.’” And indeed nobody has. “The fault,” as Mason correctly attests, “lies with the careerist right-winger (Jamie Reed) who abandoned the seat in mid-session to take a better job.”

And let us not overlook Emily Thornberry, for whom the blame quite rightly lays at the feet of the “fake news” media, for allowing it to somehow “get out” that a man who has campaigned against nuclear weapons and nuclear power for three decades might, in theory, be against the nuclear industry, on which virtually every single job in the Copeland constituency directly or indirectly lies.

When, after 10 to 20 times of asking, Corbyn did commit to “new nuclear” in late January, the fake news media must be held responsible for failing to dedicate the proper resources to ensuring that this single statement was sufficient to overturn with three weeks notice three decades of accumulated campaigning against the very thing that everyone’s livelihoods depend.

Ian Lavery MP, Corbyn’s new campaign chief, wisely deduced that, “This wasn’t in any way, shape or form an election on the leadership of the Labour Party” and that power to supplant himself in the minds of thousands of Lake District voters and correctly conclude that as they made their choice between the two main parties, the leader of one was absolutely in no way a factor, will serve him well in his new job. Doubly so, as he didn’t succumb to the temptation to imagine that the simultaneous result in Stoke-on-Central, in which Labour was not defeated but victorious by a near identical margin, was about anything other than the leadership of the Labour Party. 

And there are others who deserve lesser congratulation. The MP Cat Smith should have been brave enough, like the rest, to see that it had even been a defeat, and not labour under the wrong but noble misapprehension that to be 15 to 18 per cent behind in the polls and lose by a mere 2,000 votes is an “incredible achievement” which ranks right up there with Michael Jackson’s incredible achievement in not dropping that baby off that balcony in Hamburg and merely dangling him over for a laugh.

Alas we must wait for the insights of Owen Jones, who has promised he will “write something this weekend” but the early warning signs are there that he is set to miss the mark entirely. “Unless something drastic happens, Labour are on course for their worst defeat since the 1930s with terrible consequences for this country,” he said on Friday morning. He’s not actually going to blame Corbyn is he? Having campaigned so hard for the Corbyn leadership, and that leadership having varied not one nanodegree from the path of the entirely foreseeable, he can’t surely have come to change his mind? Not when he’s come this far, been defeated so utterly, and so stands so close to success.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3815 on: February 24, 2017, 08:50:52 pm »
The Poll Tax protests helped get rid of Thatcher but we still had seven years of John Major. It wasn't the Poll Tax Riots that got rid of the Tories, it was Blair, Mandelson, Campbell and Brown. You may prefer principled opposition and protest but it does fuck all for the people you profess to care about.

What happened to the 'heart of our class?...' Nothing. It's no wonder people like Corbyn and McDonnell are so disliked by ordinary people. People who don't see themselves as a 'class' - as the down-trodden proletariat waiting for a glorious leader to lead them in the final struggle against their oppressors. They're people Johnno, with aspirations and hopes and dreams. That's why the unions had power back in the day. It wasn't because they were all committed to the cause, it was because collective bargaining and unionisation was the best way to improve their lot.

I will break my silence for just this response. Don't ever again attempt to lecture me about who or what our peoples' aspirations are. I have fought for our people's causes and aspirations on the picket lines when they were being victimised for having any! When they promoted me to neutralise me, I formed a manager's branch of the union and carried on the pursuit of our rights at our level. Don't know what generation you are so all of this history lesson might mean nowt to you anymore if it ever did. But that aside, you can dispense with your pseudo academic analyses of what equates to class very simply if you consider this example of what the employers longer term objectives always are opposite the best interests of their employees.

The company I worked for in the early 80's deployed a then ground-breaking "new" approach to getting the work-force "on-side". I don't need to explain which team that was "on-side" with do I?
They gave us periodic freebie meals in the posh visitors dining room at which my entire shift of 16 operators and of course, the other available shifts of our chemical plant work-force gathered as a working unit. We were swamped with fancy meals and fancy talking senior managers who rotated around each shift team's tables and mosied between tables between each course talking all the time about greater productivity and engaging with the shop floor like we were important guests.

I recall the Works Engineer a Scots Tory par excellence saying as he joined my lads' table that "we were all keys to the future of the site and our commitment was crucially important". He was buttering us up (like we were kindergarten kids instead of grown-ups) about the threat posed to our jobs by the Japanese pharmaceuticals companies via their greater productivity and how would we best able to respond.
This talk by the way was against a backcloth of a failed pay round and whispers of imminent lay-offs could be on the way.
After he had delivered his spiel to my table about why we needed to "match our Japanese competitors" if our future was to be secured, he asked me for a response on behalf of my shift team.

To his amazement, I said I thought it was a brilliant initiative that we re-organise to mirror what our major Japanese competitors are already doing - and very successfully. Then I delivered the punchline. "So then Bob when can we expect to see the increased investment specifically for systemic intensive up-skilling programmes which our Japanese rivals always routinely use during the economic downturn in the global business cycle - as opposed to what we do which is lay people off when our production staff are under-utilised. It advantages their businesses such that when the upturn returns, they are always in pole position to take full advantage of the market opportunities?"

He to his credit I have to say coloured up and mumbled something about "their productivity was differently scaled but he he would certainly look into the possibilities."  With that mealy-mouthed response, he beat it onto another shifts table and no more was ever said.

Con artists extraordinaire trying to elicit something fundamentally crucial to business effectiveness for the future for no more "investment" than a freebie meal. Bosses and Tories eh what a bunch of con artists both of that ilk think they are.

Now you can just carry on with you modding activities unhindered by any further contributions from me. 
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Offline Millie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3816 on: February 24, 2017, 09:14:52 pm »
Johnno - Alan is the same generation as me - so we both lived through the Thatcher years, as adults.

Alan is right - whilst we managed to get rid of the Poll tax by protesting - that did not bring down the Tories.  It wounded them, but it did not get rid.

Does "class" even exist anymore?  My late Dad was working class - he worked in a factory.  My brothers are both engineers.  Are they "working class" ?  My daughter is a teacher.  What class is she?  The only thing we all have in common is that we are Labour voters. 

Corbyn is not up to the job, he never has been.  If you want to help your people he has to go.  It is highly unlikely that Labour will ever form a Government with him at the helm.  So how the hell can the people improve their lives?  Seriously, how?

Please don't lecture me for having a different view from you.  I am a labour voter.  I believe in social justice.  I am also a realist.  I know that for labour to ever get into power again Corbyn must go.  Labour must also learn from Blair (not apologising for that).  They have to appeal to so called "middle" England.   (I hate that term).  Without winning them over Labour have no chance.  That is the reality of the situation.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 09:16:28 pm by In Fowler We Trust »
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3817 on: February 24, 2017, 09:22:36 pm »
Does "class" even exist anymore?  My late Dad was working class - he worked in a factory.  My brothers are both engineers.  Are they "working class" ?  My daughter is a teacher.  What class is she?  The only thing we all have in common is that we are Labour voters. 
i don't think people think of themselves as being in a 'class', maybe aside from the top end of society

Offline Red Beret

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3818 on: February 24, 2017, 09:39:02 pm »
For what it's worth, I DO blame Tony Blair for the current state of the Labour Party.  He had a gilt edged opportunity in power to bring politics back to a centre left bearing, but instead chose to go even further to the right.

We are reaping the legacy which Blair sowed.  Out of power, even moderate centrist views appear dangerously subversive.  The fact that JC and his team compound the problems with chronic incompetence transforms a disaster into a catastrophe.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3819 on: February 24, 2017, 09:39:57 pm »
i don't think people think of themselves as being in a 'class', maybe aside from the top end of society
I dont either, we need different words to differentiate between militants and left wing political beliefs.
You can be a militant who is willing to stand up and fight any attack on your working standards but it doesn't necessarily mean you have left wing political beliefs.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3820 on: February 24, 2017, 09:44:43 pm »
Johnno - Alan is the same generation as me - so we both lived through the Thatcher years, as adults.

Alan is right - whilst we managed to get rid of the Poll tax by protesting - that did not bring down the Tories.  It wounded them, but it did not get rid.

Does "class" even exist anymore?  My late Dad was working class - he worked in a factory.  My brothers are both engineers.  Are they "working class" ?  My daughter is a teacher.  What class is she?  The only thing we all have in common is that we are Labour voters. 

Corbyn is not up to the job, he never has been.  If you want to help your people he has to go.  It is highly unlikely that Labour will ever form a Government with him at the helm.  So how the hell can the people improve their lives?  Seriously, how?

Please don't lecture me for having a different view from you.  I am a labour voter.  I believe in social justice.  I am also a realist.  I know that for labour to ever get into power again Corbyn must go.  Labour must also learn from Blair (not apologising for that).  They have to appeal to so called "middle" England.   (I hate that term).  Without winning them over Labour have no chance.  That is the reality of the situation.

I will not be a party to lecturing anyone mate. What I would urge all socialists to do is get involved and make a difference to our society. If we can't do that or choose not to whichever it is, then we have no mandate to complain when we get shafted by the combination of the Tories, the establishment rags and the media to say nothing of the failed has-beens that once purported to be believers with us.
It might not be quite 1984 Orwellian style but by Christ, there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we are being systematically brainwashed/railroaded into abject submission by our masters who believe themselves to be our rulers by divine right. Whatever happened to noblesse oblige within our ruling class?

You talk about what is class as though it's a moveable feast. My 4 sisters are/were respectively the retired Head of BBC World News service; Retired Managing Director within Cancer Care UK NHS; A former investigative journalist with Granada TV, who has a double degree and is now a very knowledgeable homeopath and my youngest sister is a legal secretary. My brother was an electronics engineer until he emigrated to Oz and is now retired.  I am an independent Quality Assurance consultant to the Pharmaceuticals and Vaccines industry. ALL of us our socialists and all of us see our roots stem from our working class parents. Dad was a steelworker in the rolling mills of a Manchester company now defunct for lack of investment in its manufacturing stock. We have clear memories lf the old fella wringing out his shirt soaked to the skin with sweat when he came home from a 12 hour shift in that inferno.

I am working class to my DNA and am proud of that. I don't have many friends who are of the Tory persuasion - in fact only one who is a very decent bloke - quite rare for a Tory I find. So for me, whatever way the political wind blows we don't sway from our heritage.
There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat nor any conceit in victory. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with skill, courage, fair play,no favour and the result accepted without bitterness. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909-1994

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3821 on: February 24, 2017, 09:47:24 pm »
Johnno - Alan is the same generation as me - so we both lived through the Thatcher years, as adults.

Alan is right - whilst we managed to get rid of the Poll tax by protesting - that did not bring down the Tories.  It wounded them, but it did not get rid.

Does "class" even exist anymore?  My late Dad was working class - he worked in a factory.  My brothers are both engineers.  Are they "working class" ?  My daughter is a teacher.  What class is she?  The only thing we all have in common is that we are Labour voters. 

Corbyn is not up to the job, he never has been.  If you want to help your people he has to go.  It is highly unlikely that Labour will ever form a Government with him at the helm.  So how the hell can the people improve their lives?  Seriously, how?

Please don't lecture me for having a different view from you.  I am a labour voter.  I believe in social justice.  I am also a realist.  I know that for labour to ever get into power again Corbyn must go.  Labour must also learn from Blair (not apologising for that).  They have to appeal to so called "middle" England.   (I hate that term).  Without winning them over Labour have no chance.  That is the reality of the situation.

I will not be a party to lecturing anyone mate. What I would urge all socialists to do is get involved and make a difference to our society. If we can't do that or choose not to whichever it is, then we have no mandate to complain when we get shafted by the combination of the Tories, the establishment rags and the media to say nothing of the failed has-beens that once purported to be believers with us.
It might not be quite 1984 Orwellian style but by Christ, there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we are being systematically brainwashed/railroaded into abject submission by our masters who believe themselves to be our rulers by divine right. Whatever happened to noblesse oblige within our ruling class?

You talk about what is class as though it's a moveable feast. My 4 sisters are/were respectively the retired Head of BBC World News service; Retired Managing Director within Cancer Care UK NHS; A former investigative journalist with Granada TV, who has a double degree and is now a very knowledgeable homeopath and my youngest sister is a legal secretary. My brother was an electronics engineer until he emigrated to Oz and is now retired.  I am an independent Quality Assurance consultant to the Pharmaceuticals and Vaccines industry. ALL of us our socialists and all of us see our roots stem from our working class parents. Dad was a steelworker in the rolling mills of a Manchester company now defunct for lack of investment in its manufacturing stock. We have clear memories of the old fella wringing out his shirt soaked to the skin with sweat when he came home from a 12 hour day shift in that inferno.

I am working class to my DNA and am proud of that. I don't have many friends who are of the Tory persuasion - in fact only one who is a very decent bloke - quite rare for a Tory I find. So for me, whatever way the political wind blows we don't sway from our heritage.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3822 on: February 24, 2017, 09:50:36 pm »
Quote
now a very knowledgeable homeopath

Oxymoron.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3823 on: February 24, 2017, 10:01:28 pm »
150 seats...  I can't begin to imagine...

Senior figure obviously Watson
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3824 on: February 24, 2017, 10:11:28 pm »
Don't know what generation you are so all of this history lesson might mean nowt to you anymore if it ever did.

60 this year Johnno. Married in the year Thatcher came to power and lived through the worst of her years. I worked as a delivery driver in those days and driving round the country I saw the devastation her policies had on the industrial heartlands of Britain. Factories, steelworks, coal mines, all devastated because of her desire to destroy the natural base for socialism in this country. I've worked on building sites, in factories and done all sorts in my time. I also had my fair share of time on the dole, balancing whether to buy food, pay the rent, pay the bailiffs or hide from the 'Provident' collector. I may be metropolitan, middle class now but I don't need lectures on what it's like to work or what it was like under Thatcher. And I know the lads I used to work with - not the union leaders or the foremen, but the lads on the shop floor who couldn't give a flying fart about politics as long as they had a pay check at the end of the week.

I've campaigned on here for the last two general elections that the only thing that mattered was voting Labour because that was the only thing that would get the Tories out. Thanks to Corbyn, Labour is in such a fucking hole that I'm not sure if I can be bothered next time round.

It really hurts that I might never see another Labour government in my lifetime. I've never met you Johnno, but from your posts you seem sound and I'm sure I'd get on well if we had a pint or two. But this?... sorry. You are so far off base it's untrue. You're hankering for a world that's long gone, if it ever existed.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3825 on: February 24, 2017, 10:14:21 pm »
I dont either, we need different words to differentiate between militants and left wing political beliefs.
You can be a militant who is willing to stand up and fight any attack on your working standards but it doesn't necessarily mean you have left wing political beliefs.
even the whole 'left v right' thing as well, at least for the average person is another one (liberal and conservative as well), there's that old Chris rock bit, some things I'm liberal, others I'm conservative which I think a lot of people fall under, and whatever is their biggest priority in life at that time is they'll go that way

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3826 on: February 24, 2017, 10:14:56 pm »
150 seats...  I can't begin to imagine...

Senior figure obviously Watson


As I keep saying Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and the likes don't care as long as the Labour Party is matching their ideology they don't care if they have 50 or 150 seats.........They don't care about being in government and have never cared about that - only about being in charge of the Labour Party.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3827 on: February 24, 2017, 10:15:07 pm »
150 seats...  I can't begin to imagine...

Senior figure obviously Watson

tories won 165 in 1997 as a reference

As I keep saying Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and the likes don't care as long as the Labour Party is matching their ideology they don't care if they have 50 or 150 seats.........They don't care about being in government and have never cared about that - only about being in charge of the Labour Party.
Think Abbott can be taken off that list now

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3828 on: February 24, 2017, 10:23:42 pm »
tories won 165 in 1997 as a reference
Think Abbott can be taken off that list now

I'd take 150. At least Labour might still exist. If Corbyn & McDonnell are still in charge I don't think there's a lower limit to how far Labour could go. Parties have disappeared and become irrelevant in the past, and Labour could quite easily go the same way. We may take the piss out of the Lib Dems now but for almost a hundred years the Liberals were regularly in power.

1846-1852    Lord John Russell    Liberal
1855-1858    Henry John Temple, Viscount Palmerston    Liberal
1859-1865    Henry John Temple, Viscount Palmerston    Liberal
1865-1866    Lord John Russell    Liberal
1868-1874    William Gladstone    Liberal
1880-1885    William Gladstone    Liberal
1886            William Gladstone    Liberal
1892-1894    William Gladstone    Liberal
1894-1895    Archibald Philip Primrose   Liberal
1905-1908    Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman    Liberal
1908-1916    Herbert Henry Asquith    Liberal
1916-1922    David Lloyd George    Coalition
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Its all about winning shiny things.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3829 on: February 24, 2017, 10:25:32 pm »
I don't think the penny will drop for some of the more "idealistic" supporters.

They've nailed their colours to Corbyn's mast and will happily go down with the ship.

Their suicide will be ideologically pure but God help those who Labour is supposed to support and will be left to Tory mercy.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3830 on: February 24, 2017, 10:47:00 pm »
even the whole 'left v right' thing as well, at least for the average person is another one (liberal and conservative as well), there's that old Chris rock bit, some things I'm liberal, others I'm conservative which I think a lot of people fall under, and whatever is their biggest priority in life at that time is they'll go that way
Very true. am sure i would be classed as left wing but we all have different opinions on many things.  I imagine most people have different opinions on crime and defense, immigration,Royalty.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3831 on: February 24, 2017, 10:48:24 pm »
Emily Thornberry should get a massive punch in the face. The fucking useless, incompetent dickhead.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3832 on: February 24, 2017, 10:48:40 pm »
An interesting analysis in this evening's London Standard by the editor of the New Statesman.

Tories’ Copeland win could spell political death for Jeremy Corbyn, writes Jason Cowley

Conservatives’ gain of the seat for the first time in over 80 years suggests Labour has lost its traditional identity

Jason Cowley

Labour’s defeat to the Tories in the Copeland by-election in Cumbria, which the party had held for more than 80 years, is a humiliation for Jeremy Corbyn and his moribund party. This is the first time a governing party had gained a seat in a by-election since Margaret Thatcher’s party won Mitcham and Morden in 1982.

The victorious candidate, Trudy Harrison, who increased the Tories’ share of the vote in this former Labour stronghold by more than eight per cent, hailed the victory as “truly historic”, while Labour MP John Woodcock called it a “disaster”, and even the shadow chancellor and Corbyn ally, John McDonnell, conceded it was a “profound disappointment”.

At a time in the electoral cycle when a credible opposition should be winning by-elections and riding high in the polls, Labour is in disarray: rejected, humiliated, ridiculed. It has all but collapsed in Scotland, where the Tory leader Ruth Davidson has emerged as the popular, unapologetic leader of Unionism. And in England the danger now is not that it will lose seats to Ukip — whose leader bad bootle meff was rejected yesterday in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election, which Labour held on a low turnout after a dispiriting campaign — but to Theresa May’s Conservatives.

The Copeland result was a vindication for the Prime Minister. When I interviewed her in Downing Street recently she had a simple message for Labour: we are coming after your voters — and she is.

Because of its embrace of the radical Left, May accused Labour of abandoning many of its traditional supporters. The party was not responding to their concerns on issues such as “the impact of immigration on lower income levels”.

True enough: Corbyn favours mass immigration and open borders yet is an economic protectionist — a classic Marxist position but electoral suicide in our new, emerging, post-liberal era in which populist movements are rising across Europe and an America First nationalist is in the White House.

“I hope there are Labour voters,” May told me, “out there who will now look at us afresh and say, ‘Labour hasn’t responded to our concerns, it hasn’t recognised what matters to us, but the Conservatives have seen that and are responding to it’. I want our greater prosperity not to be confined to particular groups of people or a single part of the country.”

The polls suggest that more than just disaffected Labour voters are looking at the Tories afresh, as we embark on the epic challenge of negotiating the Brexit settlement.

May believes Brexit was not only a vote to leave the European Union but a demand for change from those people — many of them in places such as Copeland — who felt ignored and excluded from prosperity and greater opportunity.

Her vision is for a “Great Meritocracy” (whereas Corbyn’s is for a socialist republic) combining greater social justice with enhanced social mobility. It’s an intellectually fascinating and ambitious project and, if successful (and many doubt her, not least her own Right wing), it has the potential to condemn Labour to electoral oblivion.

The collapse of the Labour Party as a stable and credible political force is dismaying. Many of the party’s problems precede Corbyn, who is sincere and determined but is not a national leader. But then neither was Ed Miliband, who misunderstood the financial crisis, which he believed had created a “social democratic moment”, and misread the country he sought to govern. Miliband treated politics like an elevated Oxbridge PPE seminar and introduced the new rules by which the party elected its leader, disempowering MPs and creating the opportunity for the far Left to capture the party. Nice work, Ed!

The distinguished Cambridge historian Robert Tombs has called the European Union a system of “managed discontents”. Something similar could be said of Corbyn’s Labour, except that its discontents are scarcely managed at all.

Most Labour MPs despise or are embarrassed by their leader. The MPs are divided and demoralised, with some pondering whether to follow Tristram Hunt and Jamie Reed (whose departures created respectively the Stoke and Copeland by-elections) out of politics. The Corbynites are breaking up into factions (one hears talk of “hard” and “soft” Corbynites), and Corbyn himself is incapable of appealing to those who do not share his ideological convictions.

For now, the Labour leader retains the support of activists and members and, crucially, of Unite, Britain’s biggest union and the party’s paymaster. But even his friends must accept that he is leading the party in only one direction — into the abyss.

On the eve of the two by-elections, Corbyn posted a message on Facebook: “Whatever the results, the Labour Party — and our mass membership — must go further to break the failed political consensus, and win power to rebuild and transform Britain.”

The statement was received with derision on social media. The idea that Labour can win power any time soon (notwithstanding some black-swan event) is magical thinking. Corbyn’s personal ratings among traditional working class, semi-skilled and unskilled Labour voters are catastrophically poor. He appeals to students, affluent metropolitans with degrees  and minority groups. As for the majority of the electorate, forget it.

MPs are reluctant to challenge Corbyn because they know any leadership contest would revitalise his leadership, as happened last summer when the Welsh MP Owen Smith mounted an ill-considered challenge. Nor is there a pre-eminent candidate waiting in the shadows, as Michael Heseltine was in the last years of the Thatcher administration.

So Labour will continue to be the Zombie Party: too weak to win but too strong to die. Its founding mission was to defend the labour interest and to create a fairer, more ethical society. But Labour has lost its role, its confidence and sense of purpose. Obsessed by identity liberalism, bewildered by Brexit and led by a radical socialist, Labour can only look on helplessly as the Tories start to win seats in its former heartlands and hunker down for another decade or more in power.

Jason Cowley is editor of the  New Statesman

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/tories-copeland-win-could-spell-political-death-for-jeremy-corbyn-writes-jason-cowley-a3475476.html

This line should give pause for thought to Johnno, Trada and the other Corbynistas who keep banging on about the 'working man...'

"Corbyn’s personal ratings among traditional working class, semi-skilled and unskilled Labour voters are catastrophically poor. He appeals to students, affluent metropolitans with degrees  and minority groups. As for the majority of the electorate, forget it."
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3833 on: February 24, 2017, 10:53:29 pm »
Emily Thornberry should get a massive punch in the face. The fucking useless, incompetent dickhead.
whats she done now?

Very true. am sure i would be classed as left wing but we all have different opinions on many things.  I imagine most people have different opinions on crime and defense, immigration,Royalty.
aye, can even be left and right on certain issues (e.g. crime - I'm rather right wing when it comes to nonces, pretty left wing on the legality of prostitution), which brings the biggest flaw of the current leader, projecting competence. Corbyn and May aren't particularly competent (would say May is likely a bit more competent) but she comes across as competent to many whereas Corbyn comes across as a div surrounded by divs

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3834 on: February 24, 2017, 10:57:41 pm »
whats she done now?
aye, can even be left and right on certain issues (e.g. crime - I'm rather right wing when it comes to nonces, pretty left wing on the legality of prostitution), which brings the biggest flaw of the current leader, projecting competence. Corbyn and May aren't particularly competent (would say May is likely a bit more competent) but she comes across as competent to many whereas Corbyn comes across as a div surrounded by divs

She exists.

Offline Mag Hull

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3835 on: February 24, 2017, 10:59:12 pm »
Quote from Jonno: "I am working class to my DNA and am proud of that. I don't have many friends who are of the Tory persuasion - in fact only one who is a very decent bloke - quite rare for a Tory I find. So for me, whatever way the political wind blows we don't sway from our heritage."
[/quote]

Hi Jonno,
Bit about me - I'm 50 next year but remember on my 18th birthday being made up - finally - to be able to join the Labour Party. Bit like Alan, I also grew up during the Thatcher years being part of god knows how many marches and protests, including almost being flattened by 30 odd charging Police Horses on Waterloo Bridge as part of the original "Grants not Loans" protest in 88.
My Dad - a printer who was always FOC, and who had a very Bobby Grant attitude in terms of Union taking precedence over family, was arrested protesting at Eddie Shah breaking the closed shop, and had the greatest influence over my early political development.
Needless to say, I was totally inculcated in all things Socialist - when I lived in Germany (Cologne) I even got involved with the local SPD to get a better angle on the German Left Wing thinking. Despite having a couple of degrees and an MPhil to my name and working in manufacturing in a senior Managerial position - Automotive (Halewood, Cologne, Crewe) and Aerospace (Bolton, Burnley), I've always considered myself working class and still do; working with people on the shop-floor keeps you grounded in a good way!
However, being the passionate socialist that I am - I am concerned, without being hyperbolic, that there are uncanny parallels with the party under Corbyn and the Republicans under Trump: there's something unpalatable about the cult of personality, persecution complex, blaming of unfavourable press coverage, and total ineptitude. We are currently losing the fight and god alone knows how, have ceded the moral high ground to the most ineffectual Tory government ever. I understand why the majority of people on this forum get pissed off - its because we are pissing in the wind while shit happens and under Corbyn, who, if he appears on TV over the weekend takes days off in lieu, this ain't going to change.

As an unfunny foot note to this - my Dad who got me going on this path to begin with - now votes fucking UKIP.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 11:11:42 pm by Mag Hull »
Get your fucking hedge cut!!!!

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3836 on: February 24, 2017, 11:08:57 pm »
Just saw Cat Smith on the news. Jesus wept.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3837 on: February 24, 2017, 11:10:03 pm »
whats she done now?
aye, can even be left and right on certain issues (e.g. crime - I'm rather right wing when it comes to nonces, pretty left wing on the legality of prostitution), which brings the biggest flaw of the current leader, projecting competence. Corbyn and May aren't particularly competent (would say May is likely a bit more competent) but she comes across as competent to many whereas Corbyn comes across as a div surrounded by divs
Yeah, your selling yourself to the country,it's a game. if you look like your wining the arguments then you must be right and that's Corbyns problem,he's coming out second best all the time.
I thought May would be better than Cameron at first but shes far weaker as she does fluster and voters would see this if Corbyn could exploit it, problem is Corbyns not the type to stick the dagger in like the Torys, she also has ammo on him over different issues and she can throw his past history back at him when she cant think of a argument against his points.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 11:16:05 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3838 on: February 24, 2017, 11:13:34 pm »
Just saw Cat Smith on the news. Jesus wept.

She has had a bit of a shocker to say the least

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #3839 on: February 24, 2017, 11:15:29 pm »
How many safe seats do Labour even have these days? Most of the seats in the north west are fairly secure but outside of those there are perhaps just a dozen or so guaranteed victories for Labour. Wouldn't even be confident about Labour retaining their seats in London; I think the Lib Dems could make some gains there. Backing Brexit is going to be a colossal mistake for generations to come and could've hammered the nail in the Labour coffin.