Topic: Rogue One - 2 Siths, 1 Saber

[J-Mc-]

Speaking to a mate about the character development last night and he agreed with me that a crawl at the beginning would have been incredibly useful for it.

Fair enough, we know the story because of ANH but simply having a crawl describing why Bodhi defected from the imperials and why he was so enamoured with Gailen would have helped a lot, also would have helped set up the beginning a lot more and wouldn't have needed all the jumping around either.

[TepidT2O]

Talking of the opening crawl....

This is Richard Edlund preparing the opening crawl to ANH.

Old school!

[Something Worse]

Maybe by name, but he's shite in most things he's in. I still can't believe how he actually got away with his performance in The Crying Game. That should have been a career killer.

He's been in shite, he isn't shite. Bizarre thing to say.

[Macphisto80]

He's been in shite, he isn't shite. Bizarre thing to say.

He isn't a shite actor? I take it you haven't watched The Crying Game, then? Keanu Reeves levels of bollocks he is.

[SP]

More on the crawl.

http://gizmodo.com/5542745/so-thats-how-they-filmed-the-star-wars-opening-crawl

[WillG.LFC]

Carrie fisher has had a heart attack on a flight to LA apparently

[oojason]

Carrie fisher has had a heart attack on a flight to LA apparently

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38423963

US actress Carrie Fisher, who played Princess Leia in the Star Wars films, is in a critical condition after suffering a heart attack during a flight, reports say.
She went into cardiac arrest on the London to LA flight, the LA Times said.

Passengers attempted to revive her with CPR and she was rushed to hospital when the plane landed after midday local time (20:00 GMT), the TMZ website said.
Fisher, 60, had been on tour promoting her latest book The Princess Diarist.

The heart attack happened about 15 minutes before the plane landed in LA, celebrity news website TMZ reported. A medic who was travelling on the plane administered CPR.

Paramedics then spent a further 15 minutes administering more CPR to Fisher before getting a pulse, TMZ reported. The actress was on a ventilator in the UCLA medical centre, the website said.

United Airlines issued a statement saying that Flight 935 from London to Los Angeles was met on the ground by medical personnel after the crew reported that a passenger was "unresponsive", but did not name the passenger, Reuters reported.

The LA Fire department said its paramedics met the plane and "provided advanced life support and aggressively treated and transported the patient to a local hospital".

A law enforcement official told NBC that her condition was "not good".

Fellow Star Wars actors have been posting messages of support.

Mark Hamill, who played Luke Skywalker, said he was sending all his love and Peter Mayhew, who played Chewbacca, tweeted his thoughts and prayers for "everyone's favourite princess".

Fisher appeared in the original Star Wars trilogy and Star Wars: The Force Awakens, a sequel released last year.

She also appeared in other films including The Blues Brothers and When Harry Met Sally.

She has written four novels and three memoirs and was previously married to the musician Paul Simon.

In her latest memoir, she revealed that she and Harrison Ford, who played Han Solo, had an affair during the filming of Star Wars when she was 19 years old, and he was 33 and married with two children.

Fisher is the daughter of singer Eddie Fisher and actress Debbie Reynolds.


^ in the article linked above there are some people who were on the plane who've twittered about it.

[Brian Blessed]

A cardiac arrest and heart attack are two different things. Cardiac arrest is worse.

Thoughts are with her.

[Something Worse]

He isn't a shite actor? I take it you haven't watched The Crying Game, then? Keanu Reeves levels of bollocks he is.

Correct, he isn't a bad actor.

It's almost as if an entire actor's career is more than just one bad role 24 years ago.

[voodoo ray]

I do hope she's ok

[J-Mc-]

She's stable now according to her brother but still fighting.

[Seebab]

He isn't a shite actor? I take it you haven't watched The Crying Game, then? Keanu Reeves levels of bollocks he is.

No, he isn't. See Last King of Scotland. He is mesmerizing in that.

[cptrios]

I thought it was largely middling until the actual formation of "Rogue One," then pretty great. I don't know whether the reshoots/whatever made it better or worse than it would have been, but they definitely seem to have tripped up the pacing and...I don't know, congruity?...of the first two acts. But Edwards does seem to know his way around grand-scale action.

And yeah, Peter Cushing was just weird. The CG/mocap might be there on fantasy creatures like Gollum and the Avatar aliens, and even on the Apes, but for people it's still in uncanny valley territory. All of us spend a huge percentage of our lives watching human faces move; it's going to take substantially better tech to meet the expectations created by that experience. Still, they could have pulled it off by using him more sparingly and only letting him talk with his back to the camera. I don't know why they thought giving him so much screen time was a good idea.

[Red Beret]

A cardiac arrest and heart attack are two different things. Cardiac arrest is worse.

Thoughts are with her.

30 minutes before feeling a pulse?  That's all kinds of worse. 

2016 has been about as much fun as climbing Caradhras.  At every turn it's had some new piece of shit to fling at us.  Prayers and thoughts are with Carrie.

Back to Cushing.  I get the argument that he could have relayed some of his dialogue via reflections or in shadows, but as I said I respect the fact that they put him right out in the open as a key character.  Yes he had a cartoon mouth and I thought he was a bit expressionless at times, especially reacting to the rebel attack on Scarif and the revelation that Krennic is there.  But he was far short of being a cardboard cut out; I've seen real life actors deliver worse performances.

My guess is they preferred to underplay Tarkin's performance and keep him restrained, to maintain as much realism as possible.

Side note on Vader: just realised, if he hadn't been so busy toying with those rebel soldiers he probably could have just force pulled that data card from the rebel's hand and saved himself, and the Empire, a lot of strife.  That guy has all the time in the world to pass it to somebody else.  Expecting Cinemasins to notice that one big time!

[Kashinoda]

The problem with using GCI for humans is if it's not perfect it's so very easy to take you out of the movie, Tarkin wasn't close to perfect unfortunately.

[WillG.LFC]

Watched desolation of smaug last night and the cgi orks weren't as bad as i remember in the cinema. Maybe the cgi characters look worse on a large cinema screen. Might not stand out as much on tv

[sminp]

I thought CGI Tarkin was so convincing that I forgot he was dead and thought it was him. Everyone I went with had the same reaction. Had to explain to my wife as well that it was CGI as she hasn't seen the originals and had just assumed he was real.

[Brian Blessed]

30 minutes before feeling a pulse?  That's all kinds of worse. 

2016 has been about as much fun as climbing Caradhras.  At every turn it's had some new piece of shit to fling at us.  Prayers and thoughts are with Carrie.

Back to Cushing.  I get the argument that he could have relayed some of his dialogue via reflections or in shadows, but as I said I respect the fact that they put him right out in the open as a key character.  Yes he had a cartoon mouth and I thought he was a bit expressionless at times, especially reacting to the rebel attack on Scarif and the revelation that Krennic is there.  But he was far short of being a cardboard cut out; I've seen real life actors deliver worse performances.

My guess is they preferred to underplay Tarkin's performance and keep him restrained, to maintain as much realism as possible.

Side note on Vader: just realised, if he hadn't been so busy toying with those rebel soldiers he probably could have just force pulled that data card from the rebel's hand and saved himself, and the Empire, a lot of strife.  That guy has all the time in the world to pass it to somebody else.  Expecting Cinemasins to notice that one big time!

Let's face it, Vader's failure is just another in a long list of failures on his part.

[Kashinoda]

I thought CGI Tarkin was so convincing that I forgot he was dead and thought it was him. Everyone I went with had the same reaction. Had to explain to my wife as well that it was CGI as she hasn't seen the originals and had just assumed he was real.

So you basically thought he hadn't aged or died in close to 40 years?

Honestly not sure how anyone could think he wasn't GCI, at IMAX especially it was incredibly jarring... we started laughing in the cinema.

[OsirisMVZ]

The problem with using GCI for humans is if it's not perfect it's so very easy to take you out of the movie, Tarkin wasn't close to perfect unfortunately.

How do they make people look more lifelike in video games than in movies which have 10x the budget

[Red Beret]

I just feel people are being overly critical iro Tarkin, or maybe I'm just too forgiving and easily pleased. 

Reminds me of all the sniggering over "Rubber Arnie" in the first Terminator film.  Of course its fake, but it doesn't take me out of the film because I can respect what they're doing on a technical level; as a result I can suspend my disbelief for the story.

For myself, I was just amazed at how far the CGI has come, rather than how far it still clearly needs to go.

[sminp]

So you basically thought he hadn't aged or died in close to 40 years?

Honestly not sure how anyone could think he wasn't GCI, at IMAX especially it was incredibly jarring... we started laughing in the cinema.

I was having a slow day combined with the fact I only saw them for the first time in the late 90s so I'd forgotten how old the films really are. Everyone I know had a similar reaction to me, general thoughts were that Tarkin was extremely convincing but Leia wasn't at all. Leia didn't matter so much though because it was all of 20 seconds she was actually in the film.

[Ray K]

One thought I had while watching it was does Peter Cushing's estate get properly paid for the role?  Seriously,  every time he appeared I wondered if they got a flat fee or was it per screen time.
I guess I'm saying it was slightly distracting given he appeared so often.

[Macphisto80]

How do they make people look more lifelike in video games than in movies which have 10x the budget

They don't.

The problem isn't with the rendering. Tarkin is photorealistic. It's when they start animating things that it falls apart. The technology to render photo real humans has been there for around 15 years now, it's just that no computer animation system is advanced enough to capture all the micro level nuances of movement right, especially when it comes to human expressions, especially when you have to capture the likeness of someone that can't actually be captured in the flesh like Cushing. They should have just had the CGI version in shots where he didn't speak, and the rest were a body double from poorly lit areas or from acute camera angles. The director just wasn't clever enough. He went all "Lucas" when he saw the CG render of Tarkin and slapped him in there in full hero shot. It's gonna be bloody obvious doing that.

[Red Beret]

One thought I had while watching it was does Peter Cushing's estate get properly paid for the role?  Seriously,  every time he appeared I wondered if they got a flat fee or was it per screen time.
I guess I'm saying it was slightly distracting given he appeared so often.

He's not credited; the physical role was played by Guy Henry.  But apparently the film worked very closely with Peter Cushing's family in regards to this, so I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of fee paid to his estate.

[Macphisto80]

I just feel people are being overly critical iro Tarkin, or maybe I'm just too forgiving and easily pleased. 

Reminds me of all the sniggering over "Rubber Arnie" in the first Terminator film.  Of course its fake, but it doesn't take me out of the film because I can respect what they're doing on a technical level; as a result I can suspend my disbelief for the story.

For myself, I was just amazed at how far the CGI has come, rather than how far it still clearly needs to go.

Rubber Arnie is a perfect example of how a practical effect can get away with it more so than a CG effect, but only in the context that Arnie in that film was a robot that just didn't talk very much. The mechanical movements, and his dead appearance in that shot when he had the glasses off and the robot eye exposed was a perfect foil for the mechanical trappings of a mechanised puppet, because in the film, that's essentially what he is. It's plausible, even though you notice it. Not to mention that it's also physically there.

The CGI Arnie in Salvation, though. That's how Tarkin should have been revealed. Obviously not bollock naked or anything. Just the way he didn't speak, and the lighting masked the effect somewhat.

Speaking of Salvation, a mate I was watching this with mentioned that he thought this was the 'Salvation' of the Star Wars franchise. Overly grim, but different in tone. Sparse, with nothing really terribly interesting to look at, and a tedious, soulless, dull story with uninteresting characters, of whom we already know what's going to happen to them because of the previous films. It's only real redeeming feature is that the effects were well done. I agreed.

[oojason]

So you basically thought he hadn't aged or died in close to 40 years?

Honestly not sure how anyone could think he wasn't GCI, at IMAX especially it was incredibly jarring... we started laughing in the cinema.

To be fair mate, if you hadn't seen Star Wars (1977) before, or are a just casual fan who has seen the films a few times, you may not notice who he even was (let alone that the actor who originally played the Tarkin role in a different Star Wars film has been dead for over 20 years).

One thought I had while watching it was does Peter Cushing's estate get properly paid for the role?  Seriously,  every time he appeared I wondered if they got a flat fee or was it per screen time.

Not sure how the contracts/residuals etc are - but read that got permission from Peter Cushing's estate to use his image beforehand (whether out of respect - or for legalities, I don't know).

edit, link here - http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/rogue-one-peter-cushing-digital-likeness.html and https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2016/dec/16/rogue-one-star-wars-cgi-resurrection-peter-cushing

[Macphisto80]

No, he isn't. See Last King of Scotland. He is mesmerizing in that.

He just suited the role. Even Keanu was good in The Matrix. It's when they actually have to 'act' it all sort of goes Pete Tong. I thought he was shite in Rogue One. Not entirely sure what he was going for there. Subtitles would have been grand.

[classycarra]

He just suited the role. Even Keanu was good in The Matrix. It's when they actually have to 'act' it all sort of goes Pete Tong. I thought he was shite in Rogue One. Not entirely sure what he was going for there. Subtitles would have been grand.

for me his character was the worst in the film. looked,  sounded, and acted bizarrely, and contributed embarassingly little to the story (i'll credit the director with having it imposed on him in the screenplay/reshoots).

having said that, it seems like whittaker did exactly what he was told to be fair to him though. suppose he can't help the shite dialogue and gandalf line he was given

[Macphisto80]

for me his character was the worst in the film. looked,  sounded, and acted bizarrely, and contributed embarassingly little to the story (i'll credit the director with having it imposed on him in the screenplay/reshoots).

having said that, it seems like whittaker did exactly what he was told to be fair to him though. suppose he can't help the shite dialogue and gandalf line he was given

I don't actually mind him in films when he's just there playing a mundane role like a cop or something. I like some of the films he's in. I just don't think he's a great actor. I thought he would have had a bigger role in this considering how he looked and his relation to Jyn. All he essentially was, was a caretaker, who proved his uselessness by how he decided to die. That scene was some Roland Emmerich shit. There were half a dozen characters that suffered the same lack of clear distinction as what he did. Jimmy Smits was in there. Not sure why, like; and that commander bloke in the rebel base. He'd a shitload of screen time for absolutely fuck all worth of note.

[Something Worse]

I don't actually mind him in films when he's just there playing a mundane role like a cop or something. I like some of the films he's in. I just don't think he's a great actor. I thought he would have had a bigger role in this considering how he looked and his relation to Jyn. All he essentially was, was a caretaker, who proved his uselessness by how he decided to die. That scene was some Roland Emmerich shit. There were half a dozen characters that suffered the same lack of clear distinction as what he did. Jimmy Smits was in there. Not sure why, like; and that commander bloke in the rebel base. He'd a shitload of screen time for absolutely fuck all worth of note.

You don't know why Jimmy Smits was there?

[Macphisto80]

You don't know why Jimmy Smits was there?

Na. Didn't care either. Jimmy Smits being Jimmy Smits, he probably just wanted to snake Mon Mothma.

[Something Worse]

Na. Didn't care either.

Impressive.

[Macphisto80]

Impressive.

Obi Wan has taught me well.

[oojason]

for me his character was the worst in the film. looked,  sounded, and acted bizarrely, and contributed embarassingly little to the story (i'll credit the director with having it imposed on him in the screenplay/reshoots).

It does seem that his character may have suffered the most from the reshoots - given the info we have from the trailers and tv posts and the final cut of the film.

I’d love to see the re-inclusion of more lines of dialogue from Saw - the ‘what will you do when they catch you?.. what will you do if they break you?.. if you continue to fight…?.. what will you become…?’, and the ‘the world is coming undone… Imperial flags reign across the galaxy…’ lines - and imagine there's a fair bit more missing/alternatively shot too.

Should be interesting to see what and how many deleted/alternate scenes there''ll be in the dvd/bluray - or the very slim chance of a directors/alternate cut release, or even if someone pieces together an original cut from whatever they can get their hands on (original script leak, novelisations, etc)

[Red Beret]

It does seem that his character may have suffered the most from the reshoots - given the info we have from the trailers and tv posts and the final cut of the film.

I’d love to see the re-inclusion of more lines of dialogue from Saw - the ‘what will you do when they catch you?.. what will you do if they break you?.. if you continue to fight…?.. what will you become…?’, and the ‘the world is coming undone… Imperial flags reign across the galaxy…’ lines - and imagine there's a fair bit more missing/alternatively shot too.

Should be interesting to see what and how many deleted/alternate scenes there''ll be in the dvd/bluray - or the very slim chance of a directors/alternate cut release, or even if someone pieces together an original cut from whatever they can get their hands on (original script leak, novelisations, etc)

I'm guessing there was a whole segment dedicated to him raising Jyn and training her, which was only alluded to in the film.  They probably decided it didn't suit the pacing of the film, so they junked it.  Alas, they probably jettisoned some good character development along with it, for both Saw and Jyn.

[DHKopper]

Just watched it again at the IMAX.  Loved it even more second time around.  The music didn't seem to bother me as much this time either.  I can't say the CGI bits bothered me one jot.  I now have my two nieces saying "You may fire when ready" in a Tarkin voice constantly so that'll be fun for the next couple of days for my sister  .

[Paul JH]

we started laughing in the cinema.

Must genuinely be awful to live life so cynically mean spirited and smug when watching a piece of entertainment.

Personally, as a piece of CGI it was stunning. We are NEVER going to be fully sold on CGI humans. But to laugh at it is a bit over the top.

[Paul JH]

They should have just had the CGI version in shots where he didn't speak, and the rest were a body double from poorly lit areas or from acute camera angles

Which would have been an atrocious even MORE obvious way of doing it.

[classycarra]

Must genuinely be awful to live life so cynically mean spirited and smug when watching a piece of entertainment.

Personally, as a piece of CGI it was stunning. We are NEVER going to be fully sold on CGI humans. But to laugh at it is a bit over the top.

Bit defensive and over the top! For a start, I think it's a good quality to find enjoyment from a crap bit in a film, even after your shelled out so much money to go to the cinema (I didn't laugh, I was too distracted)

Also, your defence of cgi works on the assumption that it was a necessity that we had a fake human in this film. We didn't, it was a preference of the makers, and for a lot of people it wasn't very good