Topic: Rodgers and the expediency of the negative narrative

[mattD]

Faith.

That's what separates those fans from the ones who wanted him out a few months ago. Faith doesn't waver when things are going wrong - it is something that puts fans on trial to show their loyalty as much as it is a trial for the manager to get things right again. That test of faith - many of us passed with flying colours, backing the man to the hilt in his toughest hour and at a time when the manager needed it most.

For those who didn't back Rodgers, can you seriously tell me you did not believe in him last season? And if you did believe, are you not guilty of fickleness of the highest nature, the type of which undermines fanbases today with their fair weather type attitudes? It was never deluded to have faith Rodgers. We had conviction in our belief after seeing some of the bloody sensational performances with our own eyes. It is easy to suggest delusion of faith if you supported people like Hodgson until the end - whose brand of football was utterly abject from the word go and where there was never one second which looked as if he might have a master plan.

But Rodgers? From the word go, I thought he was something special, very special. Admittedly, he wasn't my first choice for the job prior to the appointment but once it was clear he was the the manager FSG desired, I did some research on him and was immediately impressed by the numerous articles on this Northern Irishman. Then came his appointment and the much heralded press conference on 1st June 2012.

Being a student at the University of Aberdeen, I had my an exam in the morning. The sun was belting down, the air was warm and the birds sang - and so it proved in Liverpool too. After the exam and a few celebratory pints with some mates, I rushed back to my wee student house and raced up stairs to watch the press conference in full on my laptop. For this anxious lad with a natural predisposition of doom and perpetual gloom in all walks of life (I love The Smiths and The Cure!), he caught my full attention, offering a tranquility to proceedings, erasing all doubts and fears I had about the club. He was ambitious not pragmatic, realistic not deluded, hopeful not unpromising - all wrapped up in a fierce independent and single minded conviction that it was all up to him to sort this mess out. The assured nature of this young manager shocked me - this man had balls! The faith started then, conviction became more apparent even with a difficult start. We showed much promise early on in those matches where we were unlucky in many aspects, while the second half of the season we improved massively. It was clear the managers methods were taking hold. And then an unfancied team ran big spenders City close. Did I doubt him this year? Not at all - we were once again thrown into turmoil with the sale of our best player, the injury of our second best player and bedding in new exciting talent to a squad which lacked depth. It was a juggling act which was incredibly difficult for any manager. But with so much young exciting talent coming to fruition, we have - for the first time in an age - a squad with depth AND quality. That has become apparent in the last few months, and it's onwards and upwards for this young team who made the champions of England look average. Men against boys they say, or more apt with last Sundays game, boys against men.

So I just can't comprehend people who decided to fuck the fanbase and the club over by acting the turncoat and stabbing a man who made us ALL believe (don't lie - we all believed in him last season). If there was anyone who shamed and undermined the club over the last few months, it was not Rodgers, it was those fair weather fans who called for his sack.

Thank god this forum is in the majority backing the man. When did the fans of this club ever need the media to tell us what to believe? Don't believe the 'truth' I say. The globalisation of the Premier League is to blame for the fickle nature of the modern fan. That glorious League where every team is a bona-fide winner and fans love every minute according to those glossy Sky adverts, losing is simply not acceptable. It's win or die, no time for all this patient rebuilding, fuck that, blow shit loads on some world class Barcelona signing and that will get us to the top - and get that Guardiola fella in and sack that charlatan Rodgers, he'll sort it all out. Yeah, that's realistic, that will get us to the top. It must be true - Sky Sports said it, some fat bloke off TalkSport said it and so did the press, and some Man Utd fan from Suffolk took the piss out of me for supporting a shit team, so I'll take it out on the manager for embarrassing me. Yeah, that will get us back to the top.

If one thing separates true Liverpool fans from the turncoats, it's believing in ourselves rather than someone telling us what to believe in. We will make up our own minds with our own assessments and our own conclusions and that's the opinion that matters most - so thank god the majority of us still support Brendan Rodgers.

[Mamadou]

I did call for Rodgers to be sacked. "A few weeks ago" sounds so much more recent than "a few months ago" or "about 3 months ago". You have the evidence from twitter saved, so you can check and let us all know the precise date when I called for that. In fact, I was so 'rational' when I did that, that I said "SACH him". Clear indication of a well-thought out tweet, that.

It also demonstrates my point. My impulsive reactions during and right after games are not to be trusted. I don't trust them. I've demonstrated to myself how terribly inaccurate and selective they can be. Still, I go back, look at the evidence again, change my mind, do my mea culpas, etc. Unlike some people with their analyses and claims about certain players. Or their prejudiced fixed ideas about some posters.

Thank you for the attempted guilt-trip, by the way. It's amazing how mere 'pervasively tedious and joyless' words from me can have "a (the most significant) direct effect on many brilliant (cornerstone) posters quitting RAWK".

It is amazing that I have such an incredible capacity to "dominate threads" whilst being "boring".

You did yourself very few favors with that post, Sir.

this post is a perfect example of when someone wants to say a lot, and he ends up saying absolutely nothing

[canadianscraggledog]

The points difference has a lot of mitigating circumstances.

His first year was understandable as it's a new team, needing to get the team to understand his principles, philosophy...

Second year the points total in the first half of the season was pretty decent and we finished on 84 points.

This year we lost Suarez and Sturridge and needed to bed in a lot of players due to CL and unfortunately a lot of underperforming players and the decline of Gerrard.

So I feel next year with minimal change and only 2-3 signings we will have 85+ points. My only gripe was why he didn't change things sooner like bring in Lucas and Sakho

[Gifted Right Foot]

You called for Rodgers to be sacked a few weeks ago.

You are pervasively tedious and joyless, and have had a (the most significant) direct effect on many brilliant (cornerstone) posters quitting RAWk through your boring domination of threads.

I've missed you. 

[Redman0151]

My faith in rodgers initially waivered at Real Madrid away, no Liverpool manager should ever decide that we won't win a game before it's played, and rest his key players at real Madrid away. We'd worked for so long and so hard to get back there, and we essentially decided we weren't good enough and we should focus elsewhere. Rafa wouldn't do that, Dalglish wouldn't do that, other top managers in Europe wouldn't do that. For me it damaged my opinion of rodgers to a degree that hasn't been fixed yet, but hopefully will in the future.

He's answered nearly every question asked of him, but there's 2 that still remain: 

1) can he beat the top teams away from home. We've still yet to beat a top 4 team away from home. Rodgers is incredibly good at putting away the weaker teams, but top teams have to be able to beat the big teams and get the big performances. Especially in Europe.

2) win trophies. At the end of the day football is about winning things. It's all great declaring rodgers is one of the best managers around, but until his trophy cabinet matches it then it's meaningless. So far under rodgers every time we've faced a half decent team in a cup competition, we've gone out. Our greatest memories as Liverpool fans are these big victories and huge nights at anfield. Rodgers has to show he can carry on this tradition and bring silverware

As I say rodgers has shown he's adaptable and learns at a very fast rate, finally we've got a functioning defence that we can build from,  so he can easily get this right. But at the end of next season if he's still unable to answer these questions then discussions will have to happen, lest we turn into 2006-2014 arsenal, competing for that fourth place trophy with no real threat of challenging for anything serious. There has to be constant signs of progression, that's what it takes at the top level

[GrkStav]

this post is a perfect example of when someone wants to say a lot, and he ends up saying absolutely nothing

Thank you. Laconic as usual.

[GrkStav]

There is a 'positive narrative', too. It's also very expedient.

Do not use the 'negative narrative' stuff to attack anyone who's ever been critical of Rodgers.

There's a middle position between "faith in Rodgers" and "he's a fraud".

There, more declarative. Perhaps 'joyless'. Certainly not an attempt at 'dominating the thread'.

[Magix]

There's a "he's a fraud" position. Really now.

[GrkStav]

There's a "he's a fraud" position. Really now.

I don't understand your post.

It was my summary of what some other posters had said previously. If I exaggerated, I apologize.

[Funky_Gibbons]

You called for Rodgers to be sacked a few weeks ago.

You are pervasively tedious and joyless, and have had a (the most significant) direct effect on many brilliant (cornerstone) posters quitting RAWk through your boring domination of threads.

Bingo.

[keyop]

snip

That's an excellent and refreshing post.

Quite how some fans expect a 42 year old manager to be blessed with a wealth of experience is beyond me, and I'm personally really enjoying watching him and his team grow and develop, throughout the good times and bad times.

Sadly much of the thrust of your post will be lost on some - not because it isn't true, but because it doesn't fit their agendas (and they won't understand some of the long words).

[Magix]

I don't understand your post.

It was my summary of what some other posters had said previously. If I exaggerated, I apologize.

Ah. You don't have to apologize, all clear now. 

[kcbworth]

Interesting.

The start of this season was pretty poor and there were some pretty fundamental mistakes that we seemed to be making over and over. Coupled with some of the simpletons who paint every discussion as "with or against" it did lead to some fairly balanced thinking being thrown away and people feeling they had to "pick a side".

The side I picked was Liverpool Football Club

For me:

* Rodgers made mistakes early this season
* His amazing results last season absolutely should have had us retaining the faith
* But, he deserved criticism early this season as well, no question.
* Some of the performances at the business end of last season were fairly poor (particularly the tactics against Chelsea) so I think that did add to some of the doubt
* By and large, his techniques are now paying dividends again... not massively, but we're on a great run, despite losing a couple of the key contributors to the turnaround (Lucas and Sakho)
* Calling for him to be sacked at any points was foolish. Being concerned was fair and prudent.

If we go through an identical cycle next season, I'm sure similar questions will be asked, and depending on which "side" you picked, you will end up looking like a champ or a chump.

The problem I have with all of this - and it's the same with the anti-FSG brigade - is it shouldn't be about yourself / your own agenda / pointscoring, it should be about the club. If all you are achieving is promoting ill will, or adding unconstructive noise, it's just unhelpful, and because of the nature of sporting team (it's all about the fans), potentially stupidly damaging

If things are going well - celebrate.
If there is reason to be concerned - don't stifle concern.
If a player is underperforming - support them
If recurring problems are being made - treat the problem for what it's worth, not with absolute bile and disdain. Don't let the baby be thrown out with the bathwater
If you've previously said something a bit foolish - admit it and cheer with the rest of us


*(shame I wrote this on my phone - had the makings of a good post)

[GrkStav]

I

If things are going well - celebrate.
If there is reason to be concerned - don't stifle concern.
If a player is under-performing - support them
If recurring problems are being made - treat the problem for what it's worth, not with absolute bile and disdain. Don't let the baby be thrown out with the bathwater
If you've previously said something a bit foolish - admit it and cheer with the rest of us


*(shame I wrote this on my phone - had the makings of a good post)

Nobody really notices when people who had previously been critical of a player actually support him when he's going through a rough patch or he's actually carrying or coming back from an injury. I did that with Glen Johnson (and everyone knows how much I "love" Johnson) and yet nobody noticed.

Recently, once it was made public that Lucas would be out for a month, I encouraged everyone to get behind Allen. Nobody noticed that, I am sure.

When we're winning but one feels there are causes for concern, people jump on one for being killjoy, negative nelly, and the rest of it.

If one registers critiques or voices concerns after a draw or defeat, one is accused of 'turning the knife' and 'not missing a chance to 'come in here' to badmouth the manager, etc.'.

[Gnurglan]

What's most important about Rodgers is his ability to adapt. We saw it with Suarez in Rodgers' first season. We then saw it again when Rodgers found a way to use Sturridge and Suarez together. This season we've gone to a 3-4-3. He finds a way and it's very, very good to see. He's learning all the time.

My only critisism is how we deal with transfers. And it's the general approach, not the individuals, that I question. Rodgers is in charge, but to me it doesn't seem he's in full control. It's the loans and last summer we bought a minor army. On the pitch, we tweak our system, we give players new roles and we find a way to make it work. Things make sense. We can see how he gives players new roles. (Suarez, Markovic, Ibe, Can, even Gerrard...) That's how we get variation and not so much from having different players for each job. So why would we then go against this idea and sign many players for the first team?

I like what I see. Because Rodgers has a 'learning system' running, we should feel quite relaxed. Everyone will make mistakes, but the important thing is what you take from those experiences.

[kcbworth]

I've kind of always thought you show more balance than some - although I'd agree you sometimes take a while to make your point

[GrkStav]

I've kind of always thought you show more balance than some - although I'd agree you sometimes take a while to make your point

Not blessed with brevity. Trying my best to improve.

[GrkStav]

Btw, doesn't this kind of support those of us who thought BR was 'on the verge"?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/brendan-rodgers-believes-he-would-have-got-the-sack-from-liverpool-if-he-had-not-made-radical-changes-to-his-team-10083934.html

"“I knew I needed to do something earlier than when I did do it,” he admits

"“We played the system away at Newvastle but I couldn’t really work on the system in training because we didn’t have the players available at the time."

"“I was looking at it then and used it in the cup games so I knew what I wanted to do earlier,"

[jepovic]

OP has a point, but I think this negative narrative was never that significant. What people write in half time or within the first hour after a lousy game shouldn't be taken seriously. At those times RAWK is just a vent for frustrations, not a place for real discussions.

Replacing Suarez was going to be very tough, but I was never worried that Rodgers would get our attack back in shape eventually. Suarez last season was one of the best seasons ever performed in Liverpool.

I was, however, always concerned with Rodgers' ability to organize a defense. Up until a few months ago, it was really poor and still getting worse. This sudden defense solidity makes me very excited, because that can win us titles in the long run. The attack has improved, but we are still playing without a proper striker. Add that, and we are looking like a title challenger again.

[Zeb]

Btw, doesn't this kind of support those of us who thought BR was 'on the verge"?

I read it more as Rodgers saying that a continued run without winning would have got him the sack. Acknowledgement there too that he needed to improve as a manager and make changes sooner when things don't work. As some of us were saying at the time, it was for him to use what he had to hand and make something out of it. Some of us were pretty sure that he's got the ability to do that. And he has. He'll cock-up, he'll make mistakes, he'll overthink stuff or try something which doesn't work. And I know for some he's a bit much when he talks. But he's got something to him as well and deserves a bit of leeway to make those mistakes and learn from them.

Don't really give a toss about who said what and when, but was a tad saddened, if unsurprised, to see the calls for him to be sacked in November. And here we are early March and in with a shout of top 4 again. See what happens. I'd like the cup and that please.

[Magix]

Rodgers in the article also goes on to say that confidence was shot in the 4-3-3 or back four variant

“I knew I had to do something radical because I had seen enough of the players to know we were not going to shape up and work as we had done for the previous couple of years with what we had got.”

So it wasn't as straightforward as dropping Gerrard and reinstating Lucas to the first team. And the 3-4-3 couldn't be rolled out earlier because they "couldn’t really work on the system in training because [they] didn’t have the players available at the time."

[Coolie High]

My faith in rodgers initially waivered at Real Madrid away, no Liverpool manager should ever decide that we won't win a game before it's played, and rest his key players at real Madrid away. We'd worked for so long and so hard to get back there, and we essentially decided we weren't good enough and we should focus elsewhere. Rafa wouldn't do that, Dalglish wouldn't do that, other top managers in Europe wouldn't do that. For me it damaged my opinion of rodgers to a degree that hasn't been fixed yet, but hopefully will in the future.

He's answered nearly every question asked of him, but there's 2 that still remain: 

1) can he beat the top teams away from home. We've still yet to beat a top 4 team away from home. Rodgers is incredibly good at putting away the weaker teams, but top teams have to be able to beat the big teams and get the big performances. Especially in Europe.

2) win trophies. At the end of the day football is about winning things. It's all great declaring rodgers is one of the best managers around, but until his trophy cabinet matches it then it's meaningless. So far under rodgers every time we've faced a half decent team in a cup competition, we've gone out. Our greatest memories as Liverpool fans are these big victories and huge nights at anfield. Rodgers has to show he can carry on this tradition and bring silverware

As I say rodgers has shown he's adaptable and learns at a very fast rate, finally we've got a functioning defence that we can build from,  so he can easily get this right. But at the end of next season if he's still unable to answer these questions then discussions will have to happen, lest we turn into 2006-2014 arsenal, competing for that fourth place trophy with no real threat of challenging for anything serious. There has to be constant signs of progression, that's what it takes at the top level

The comparison with Arsenal is silly, but then again if you were calling for Rodgers to be sacked at start of the season which i think you were then i doubt you would notice the nuances that makes your comparison with Arsenal seem way off the mark.

[Nessy76]

So I just can't comprehend people who decided to fuck the fanbase and the club over by acting the turncoat and stabbing a man who made us ALL believe (don't lie - we all believed in him last season). If there was anyone who shamed and undermined the club over the last few months, it was not Rodgers, it was those fair weather fans who called for his sack.

Good post. I wouldn't call it faith, though, that implies an uncritical blind acceptance. For me it was clear that the way we were playing last season was very much how I want to see us play in future, and the man who got us there had earned the belief, had proven his case, and deserved to be given our support because he still looked like the best man for the job.

(The phrase you are looking for is "calling for his sacking" or "calling for him to be sacked" or "to get the sack". "Calling for his sack" would mean that people wanted him castrated, and even the creeps who wanted him out of the club weren't that crazy.)

[Redman0151]

The comparison with Arsenal is silly, but then again if you were calling for Rodgers to be sacked at start of the season which i think you were then i doubt you would notice the nuances that makes your comparison with Arsenal seem way off the mark.

I didn't call for rodgers to be sacked.

[BabuYagu]

1) can he beat the top teams away from home. We've still yet to beat a top 4 team away from home. Rodgers is incredibly good at putting away the weaker teams, but top teams have to be able to beat the big teams and get the big performances. Especially in Europe.

Just on this, itīs a complete non-issue for me. Last season he won 3-0 at Old Trafford. 3-0 at Southampton. 5-0 at Spurs. This season 2-0 at Soton. 3-0 at Spurs. Those are the sides we are in direct competition with now and he is consistently going to their homes and giving them a beating.

The tier above, the Chelsea, City's and Arsenals very very rarely lose at home. Especially big games. You need to win your home games and not lose away against your main rivals. How many times has Pellegrini won at Stamford Bridge? For example.

[Nessy76]

Just on this, itīs a complete non-issue for me. Last season he won 3-0 at Old Trafford. 3-0 at Southampton. 5-0 at Spurs. This season 2-0 at Soton. 3-0 at Spurs. Those are the sides we are in direct competition with now and he is consistently going to their homes and giving them a beating.

The tier above, the Chelsea, City's and Arsenals very very rarely lose at home. Especially big games. You need to win your home games and not lose away against your main rivals. How many times has Pellegrini won at Stamford Bridge? For example.

Ferguson's united didn't win that many at Anfield, either. It's not necessary. If you beat the bottom half home and away you have 60 points on the board and you will probably only need 10 more wins to win the league.

[ollick]

Ferguson's united didn't win that many at Anfield, either. It's not necessary. If you beat the bottom half home and away you have 60 points on the board and you will probably only need 10 more wins to win the league.

I remember when Joe Cole signed, he said the same thing about Mourinho at Chelsea, at the start of the season he'd look to beat the bottom 10 teams home and away then the other teams to build up the amount of points to challenge.

[Redman0151]

Just on this, itīs a complete non-issue for me. Last season he won 3-0 at Old Trafford. 3-0 at Southampton. 5-0 at Spurs. This season 2-0 at Soton. 3-0 at Spurs. Those are the sides we are in direct competition with now and he is consistently going to their homes and giving them a beating.

The tier above, the Chelsea, City's and Arsenals very very rarely lose at home. Especially big games. You need to win your home games and not lose away against your main rivals. How many times has Pellegrini won at Stamford Bridge? For example.

Pellegrini is also facing questions that he can't step up for the big games, especially after the match at Anfield this week.

You don't, and realistically can't, expect to win every (or most) times you go to Stamford Bridge, Etihad, Emirates but you have to show at some point you CAN get a result there. Otherwise you may as well throw in the towel whenever you're drawn against a good team in the cup, and Europe is a write off.

It's something all the top managers can do, and hopefully something Rodgers learns in time

[BabuYagu]

Btw, doesn't this kind of support those of us who thought BR was 'on the verge"?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/brendan-rodgers-believes-he-would-have-got-the-sack-from-liverpool-if-he-had-not-made-radical-changes-to-his-team-10083934.html

"“I knew I needed to do something earlier than when I did do it,” he admits

"“We played the system away at Newvastle but I couldn’t really work on the system in training because we didn’t have the players available at the time."

"“I was looking at it then and used it in the cup games so I knew what I wanted to do earlier,"

Chicken and the egg scenario. Was he feeling "on the verge" because large sections of the crowd (by which I mean the knobhead section) were calling for him to be sacked/resign. He even says so much himself

"“What I learned was it does not matter how much support you have in the boardroom, from the directors, the executives, you have to get results and you have to win."

They key party he leaves out is the supporters, the fans. Because our support DOES matter to him. And when he needed it the most, some of us were too busy being knobheads to get behind him.

[Vinay]

That's an excellent and refreshing post.

Quite how some fans expect a 42 year old manager to be blessed with a wealth of experience is beyond me, and I'm personally really enjoying watching him and his team grow and develop, throughout the good times and bad times.

Sadly much of the thrust of your post will be lost on some - not because it isn't true, but because it doesn't fit their agendas (and they won't understand some of the long words).

Villas Boas, Mourinho, Guardiola, Simeone and the late Villanova say hello.

[Vinay]

My faith in rodgers initially waivered at Real Madrid away, no Liverpool manager should ever decide that we won't win a game before it's played, and rest his key players at real Madrid away. We'd worked for so long and so hard to get back there, and we essentially decided we weren't good enough and we should focus elsewhere. Rafa wouldn't do that, Dalglish wouldn't do that, other top managers in Europe wouldn't do that. For me it damaged my opinion of rodgers to a degree that hasn't been fixed yet, but hopefully will in the future.

He's answered nearly every question asked of him, but there's 2 that still remain: 

1) can he beat the top teams away from home. We've still yet to beat a top 4 team away from home. Rodgers is incredibly good at putting away the weaker teams, but top teams have to be able to beat the big teams and get the big performances. Especially in Europe.

2) win trophies. At the end of the day football is about winning things. It's all great declaring rodgers is one of the best managers around, but until his trophy cabinet matches it then it's meaningless. So far under rodgers every time we've faced a half decent team in a cup competition, we've gone out. Our greatest memories as Liverpool fans are these big victories and huge nights at anfield. Rodgers has to show he can carry on this tradition and bring silverware

As I say rodgers has shown he's adaptable and learns at a very fast rate, finally we've got a functioning defence that we can build from,  so he can easily get this right. But at the end of next season if he's still unable to answer these questions then discussions will have to happen, lest we turn into 2006-2014 arsenal, competing for that fourth place trophy with no real threat of challenging for anything serious. There has to be constant signs of progression, that's what it takes at the top level

Those are two very pertinent questions.

[BabuYagu]

Pellegrini is also facing questions that he can't step up for the big games, especially after the match at Anfield this week.

You don't, and realistically can't, expect to win every (or most) times you go to Stamford Bridge, Etihad, Emirates but you have to show at some point you CAN get a result there. Otherwise you may as well throw in the towel whenever you're drawn against a good team in the cup, and Europe is a write off.

It's something all the top managers can do, and hopefully something Rodgers learns in time

So Manchester United, Spurs and Southampton arenīt "good teams"? Heīs gone to each of their stadiums and beat the piss out of them. Also - again, to win a league or a cup, you donīt need to go to "Stamford Bridge, Etihad, Emirates" and win. If that was the case, Chelsea would have won everything under Mourinho as nobody could beat him at home. Your point is way too simplistic and it's taken a tiny, insignificant sample of games and giving them supreme importance.

Want further proof?
2013/14 League Champions = Manchester City
Away Record in the League? Lost to Liverpool (2nd) Chelsea (3rd) and drew at Arsenal (4th)

2013/14 FA Cup Champions = Arsenal
Away Record against the top sides? Didnīt play them. Played every game at home.

2013/14 Carling Cup Champions = Manchester City
Away Record against the top sides? Didnīt play them. Away wins against Newcastle, Leicester and West Ham

So all three major competitions were won in English football by teams failing to do something you feel is essential to win trophies. Maybe you are giving this far more importance that reality indicates you should?

[Redman0151]

So Manchester United, Spurs and Southampton arenīt "good teams"? Heīs gone to each of their stadiums and beat the piss out of them. Also - again, to win a league or a cup, you donīt need to go to "Stamford Bridge, Etihad, Emirates" and win. If that was the case, Chelsea would have won everything under Mourinho as nobody could beat him at home. Your point is way too simplistic and it's taken a tiny, insignificant sample of games and giving them supreme importance.

Want further proof?
2013/14 League Champions = Manchester City
Away Record in the League? Lost to Liverpool (2nd) Chelsea (3rd) and drew at Arsenal (4th)

2013/14 FA Cup Champions = Arsenal
Away Record against the top sides? Didnīt play them. Played every game at home.

2013/14 Carling Cup Champions = Manchester City
Away Record against the top sides? Didnīt play them. Away wins against Newcastle, Leicester and West Ham

So all three major competitions were won in English football by teams failing to do something you feel is essential to win trophies. Maybe you are giving this far more importance that reality indicates you should?

I'm talking about the top teams and the top managers. You simply can't go through your entire career without being able to get the result in any big away game, it's essentially what Moyes did for a decade. You won't ever do well in Europe, and you're relying on a lucky draw to win a cup.

As I said hopefully Rodgers learns to win these games in time, but it is a blot on his record

[Nessy76]

I'm talking about the top teams and the top managers. You simply can't go through your entire career without being able to get the result in any big away game, it's essentially what Moyes did for a decade. You won't ever do well in Europe, and you're relying on a lucky draw to win a cup.

As I said hopefully Rodgers learns to win these games in time, but it is a blot on his record

Learns to win these games? Learns? As in, he hasn't noticed that it would be useful yet? Or as in something else?

We were very unluckly not to win at Chelsea and Man City last season, and we trounced every other "big" club we went to visit. I'm sure he has no intention of sending a team anywhere in this league without the plan being to win the game. No-one wins all of those games, no-one needs to.

[Redman0151]

Learns to win these games? Learns? As in, he hasn't noticed that it would be useful yet? Or as in something else?

We were very unluckly not to win at Chelsea and Man City last season, and we trounced every other "big" club we went to visit. I'm sure he has no intention of sending a team anywhere in this league without the plan being to win the game. No-one wins all of those games, no-one needs to.

Learn as in find a way to get his teams over the line rather than us saying we were unlucky or deserved more in them.

I don't think I mentioned winning every game, I specifically stated nobody can be expected to.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Villas Boas, Mourinho, Guardiola, Simeone and the late Villanova say hello.

I'm not disagreeing, merely mitigating - but...in many ways they had slightly more advantageous circumstances to their careers.

Guardiola had been a stalwart at Barca, working under managers the calibre of Cruyff, then Bobby Robson, then off to Italy with Mazzone who is one of the most experienced managers ever.

Mourinho, as we all know, was Bobby Robson's translator at Porto, Barca, then working with Van Gaal at Barca and Heynckes at Benfica.

Villas Boas under Mourinho, Villanova under Pep.

Now I know Brendan worked under Jose at Chelsea a bit.

But those managers named had every advantage in that they could watch the greats at work consistently, in order to learn and base their philosophies on what they agreed with or didn't. Brendan has in effect worked his way up in Britain, with much less pedigree from above to guide him.

The opportunities the likes of Mourinho had, for example, are immense. Ten years before he was winning the league with Chelsea, he was translating for Robson and winning leagues with Porto, getting to CL semi finals with them. Five years before he won the league with Chelsea, Van Gaal was letting him play at being Barca manager in the Copa Del Rey.

Ten years before almost winning the league with Liverpool, Brendan Rodgers was head youth coach at Chelsea. Not quite the same as being with the first team day in day out, and although they appear good currently, I'm not convinced the youth setup at Chelsea is really that important to them. Five years before almost winning the league for us, Brendan was just taking over at Championship side Swansea.

He needs time on the big stages to adjust - some mangers you've named above have lived on those stages their entire lives.

[Nessy76]

Learn as in find a way to get his teams over the line rather than us saying we were unlucky or deserved more in them.

I don't think I mentioned winning every game, I specifically stated nobody can be expected to.

The phrase just seems to hark back to exactly what the OP was criticising, though, the attitude that wee Brendan is just a newbie and we can all see what he has to do to improve. He puts out the best team he can and sets them up as well as he can. Mourinho sets teams up to draw the big away games more often than not. Rodgers doesn't. The reason we don't win a lot of those games is the same reason no-one else does, not any lack of knowledge from the manager.

[Redman0151]

The phrase just seems to hark back to exactly what the OP was criticising, though, the attitude that wee Brendan is just a newbie and we can all see what he has to do to improve. He puts out the best team he can and sets them up as well as he can. Mourinho sets teams up to draw the big away games more often than not. Rodgers doesn't. The reason we don't win a lot of those games is the same reason no-one else does, not any lack of knowledge from the manager.

I don't mind not winning a lot of them, my worry is that we haven't won any of them. Every time we face a good team in the cup or a top 4 team away in the league, we don't come out on top. I'm not attempting to patronise rodgers' ability as he knows more than I'd ever hope to know, but If next season finishes and the same questions still haven't been answered then I think the concerns will be serious.

Now let's hope we go to Emirates and twat arsenal

[BabuYagu]

Learn as in find a way to get his teams over the line rather than us saying we were unlucky or deserved more in them.

I don't think I mentioned winning every game, I specifically stated nobody can be expected to.

You also side-stepped the point that by your definition, Soton, Spurs and Man Utd away wins donīt count as "winning against good teams".

I remember this time 2 years ago Rodgers needed to learn how to beat the big teams. Now he has to beat them away. Endless goalpost moving? You donīt need to beat the best sides at their home ground to win anything. Iīve proved that to you. Itīs such a rare occurrence anyway in football as the top sides very very rarely lose at home. And it is just the latest in very small sample size facts used to beat the manager with in my opinion.

If the benchmark for managers is "can you win at Chelsea" then we are going to be going through managers quicker than food goes through Darren Fletcher.

[SerbianScouser]

If the benchmark for managers is "can you win at Chelsea" then we are going to be going through managers quicker than food goes through Darren Fletcher.

It`s the Andy Allerton school of thought. I`ll commit to him when he wins something.