Topic: Round Table: Southampton 1 - Liverpool SIX. Everybody's talking about us.

[Jaron]

"I said to Sturridge after the game: 'Now I know what everybody is talking about, so thank you!'"

Our manager might have been referring to his first experience of seeing our lethal No15 in the flesh, but I suspect a lot of people that night may well have been saying exactly the same thing about the whole team. Ah, NOW we see what the hype is all about.

Yes, we've had some spectacular wins at Man City and Chelsea recently, but many had qualified our performances, eager to point out how "badly" our opponents had played. Perhaps that's fair comment, after all, the Reds have been far from consistent performers, struggling to impose themselves in every game played at Anfield this season. Five weeks ago, one of those games was against Southampton. This tie was a chance to see what we'd learned.

On paper, we fielded a weaker team. Mignolet, Clyne, Milner, Sakho and Coutinho either injured or rested. In their place some players from the fringes, Connor Randall making his 2nd ever start, Joe Allen who seemed to have fallen well down the midfield pecking order. And up front, Divock Origi who'd looked well out of his depth when the teams met a month ago, managing just 10 ineffectual touches before he was withdrawn at half time (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34564965).

It's always interesting to hear the opposition view, so here's the match highlights from the Saints official site: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuhYbfI_lTQ

Dressed in ninja black, we ghosted past them, overwhelming them.

So, seven goals, seven talking points.


GOAL ONE - Could do better?

Just 40 seconds in, a deep Betrand cross, Mané scores. Groan.
20 seconds into the post-match press conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGMRyarlENE) you can hear what the boss thinks of it. "Everything was wrong", he says, "everyone [will ask] what was Alberto doing, but there were 25 faults before!"
A failure of Randall and Can to hustle Tadic, or to get tighter and cut out Betrand's cross? Or a failure of the centre backs to attack the incoming cross? Most of the goals we've conceded recently seem be from crosses - how can we improve that?


GOAL TWO - the Welsh Xavi?

Origi chips the ball down the line to Allen, who lobs the ball over the last man for Danny to run on to. An exceptional finish.
What did you think about the performance of Joe Allen? Was this one of his best performances for us? He's built up a bit of a reputation for short sideways passes, is this a sign he's establishing the confidence to be more ambitious?


GOAL THREE - Emre Zidane?

Lallana nips the ball to Can, who back-heels into space and chips a beautiful ball with the outside of his foot into the path of the onrushing Sturridge. First time shot. Get in.
Are we creating better chances because we're moving the ball quicker under the new boss? Did Rodgers' team have a tendency to take a few touches when we got near the box? And how good was that pass?


GOAL FOUR - John Arne Moreno?
 
Randall wins a corner, knocked out Moreno, he smashes it in, Origi with the merest flick.
Nice to see Randall involved in the build up, recovered well from an awkward start, didn't he? And another energetic performance by Alberto - a player overlooked at the start of the season remember, have you been impressed?


GOAL FIVE - Youth Product
Allen feeds Ibe, who turns playmaker with a perfect pass to Origi. Hit first time, rockets into the net.
What did you think of Origi? How does he compare to say Utd's Martial, another 20 year old newcomer with a similar record in Ligue 1? And Ibe's pass was the 3rd through-ball of the night, is Klopp's philosophy that everyone should be playmakers?


GOAL SIX - Benteke would be proud

Backheel from Origi releases Moreno, Ibe chests down his cross and hammers home.
Can Ibe become a goal threat? Can Origi become a creative force? We often see Alberto charging up the line, but is he a good crosser too?


GOAL SEVEN - Final flourish
Lovren chips elegantly into space for Brad Smith to run onto, his perfect cross nodded home by Origi. On the touchline, even the boss is impressed.
Who says Lovren can't pass? What were your impressions of newboys Smith and Randall? Now he's off the mark, what kind of games would you expect to see Origi play in this season?


So, over to you folks... what did you make of the game?

[CHOPPER]

Worst minute of football ever, they never won the toss, they never got tight, they looked cold, they looked disinterested they looked like they'd fell out of a bucket of tits sucking their thumbs. Second after second, they wilted, chasing shadows, second to everything and with no sense of effort or will to win. Shocking.










The second

[houkura]

Players were making the runs BK (before Klopp) but the midfielders weren't making the passes. It was almost like we were afraid to lose the ball at all and that led to aimless possession without the penetration that Rodger's spoke about quite often. Here we were making the passes and nailing them. Granted the runs are better when it's Sturridge making them. We were clinical. 6 goals on 7 shots on target? Clinical. Moreno's cross to Ibe was pinpoint as was Brad Smith's cross to Origi. Allen's and Can's passes were world class. Sturridge's runs were glorious as was his finishing.

One thing I noticed is Origi's movement was exceptional. Previously it was a bit aimless but now it was smart and effective. He looks a new player. It must be said he had 8 goals last season as a 20 year old (or thereabouts?) and was widely panned as a player. Made the "worst team" and all that nonsense. That's what happens when you sign for Liverpool-pressure. He has handled it well and he has a couple hundred minutes max and looks to be settling well on Wednesday night's evidence. Martial came out of the blocks pretty shit hot but I'd wouldn't say he's 40 million pounds better than Origi. Think they're similar players to an extent but I wouldn't trade Origi for Martial. Origi's a Red so I'm partial.

There were so many moments of pure quality in that match-this thread could be a long one.... Great OP.

[the 92A]

Worst minute of football ever, they never won the toss, they never got tight, they looked cold, they looked disinterested they looked like they'd fell out of a bucket of tits sucking their thumbs. Second after second, they wilted, chasing shadows, second to everything and with no sense of effort or will to win. Shocking. 










The second

Aren't you supposed to give it a few posts before you start you're ripping

[sinceIwassix]

Players were making the runs BK (before Klopp) but the midfielders weren't making the passes.

Did you just created two separate historical era? 
BK - AK, kinda like BC-AD!

[JackWard33]

Two things the game proved again
1) Daniel Sturridge is our best player
Even when not fully fit or at his explosive best his movement, touch, hold up play and finish transform our attack from okay to devastating

2) Joe Allen is a good player
It shouldn't need restating as he's put in plenty of very good performances for us but for some reason he's ridiculed by many on here and in our fan base. Presumably it's because of his closeness with Rodgers and the ludicrous build up he's was given early on
I like him playing further forward in the midfield - his ability to press and break up play then find openings for passes really suits him to playing further up the pitch
There should be a more rational assessment of him - he's not a world beater but he's a very competent player and do well when we need him

[houkura]

Did you just created two separate historical era? 
BK - AK, kinda like BC-AD!

That was my intent-not for posterity though, just for discussion's sake.

[Bobinhood]

Aren't you supposed to give it a few posts before you start you're ripping

Not with a shocking minute like that, surely? We did 25 things wrong before the goal Jurgen said. 25! Its diabolical. Not to be tolerated whatsoever.

[rickardinho1]

Good OP

Lots of good questions, though I think most of them have been discussed in other threads already so I've nothing to add here. Enjoyed the read and other's posts though, thanks.

[Shaved Crossbar]

Think they're similar players to an extent but I wouldn't trade Origi for Martial.

Stop drinking.

Back to the thread, we played very well but the scoreline maybe flattered us slightly. Winning 6-1 with a second string at a first choice top 7 team is pretty amazing. When we scored 6 at Cardiff and 5 at Fulham everyone was going crazy and lauded them as momentous games.

It'll take more time to reflect on it and see if the performance yesterday is an equivalent or whether the %s with regards to finishing just fell in our favour yesterday.

I think Ibe is a definite goal threat, and the sky is his limit under Klopp. He's got a magnificent work ethic and a physique to match any in world football. Give him some street smarts and Klopp could genuinely turn him into our Bale, 4/5 years down the line.

[houkura]

Stop drinking.

Back to the thread, we played very well but the scoreline maybe flattered us slightly. Winning 6-1 with a second string at a first choice top 7 team is pretty amazing. When we scored 6 at Cardiff and 5 at Fulham everyone was going crazy and lauded them as momentous games.

It'll take more time to reflect on it and see if the performance yesterday is an equivalent or whether the %s with regards to finishing just fell in our favour yesterday.

I think Ibe is a definite goal threat, and the sky is his limit under Klopp. He's got a magnificent work ethic and a physique to match any in world football. Give him some street smarts and Klopp could genuinely turn him into our Bale, 4/5 years down the line.

Not drinking. Honest question-what makes Martial better? 5 goals in a whole lot more minutes than Origi's 3? He's a great prospect, no question, but I think Origi has at least everything Martial has. He led the line for Belgium at the World Cup!

[Shaved Crossbar]

Not drinking. Honest question-what makes Martial better? 5 goals in a whole lot more minutes than Origi's 3? He's a great prospect, no question, but I think Origi has at least everything Martial has. He led the line for Belgium at the World Cup!

I'm one of Origi's biggest fans, but you need to watch Martial play. It's not been long enough to say definitively but Martial might just be the best prospect since Neymar. Origi is 'merely' a great young player.

Martial has a composure on the ball that's rare in world football, let alone for someone of his age. There's a lot he still needs to learn about his trade but that composure at his age is scary.

I don't want to divert this thread though, PM me mate

[Red in Korea]

Isn't it interesting how Sturridge comes back in and suddenly our midfielders are all maestros that can play perfect through-balls. Not taking anything away from Allen or Chan - brilliant through-balls they were - but isn't is great to have Studge back?

[the_red_pill]

I'm one of Origi's biggest fans, but you need to watch Martial play. It's not been long enough to say definitively but Martial might just be the best prospect since Neymar. Origi is 'merely' a great young player.

Martial has a composure on the ball that's rare in world football, let alone for someone of his age. There's a lot he still needs to learn about his trade but that composure at his age is scary.

I don't want to divert this thread though, PM me mate

Different sort of footballers- both strikers.

Who cares who looks more silky, the fact is both can finish and where Martial normally takes on a few players on his own and wazza some people, Origi pops up in the right places, reads throughball very well and is good in the air(think about the amount of balls his won- most of them lacking confidence to make anything useful of them). If you haven't noticed - due to his qualities - ORIGI WAS INVLOLVED IN ALL THE GOALS. That shows you what a prospect we have. I'll take that thanks.

I wouldn't swap the two. We've got one of them and I'm satisfied. As I said different skilsets, but they can both put the ball in back of the net- that's good enough for me.

[Coolie High]

Different sort of footballers- both strikers.

Who cares who looks more silky, the fact is both can finish and where Martial normally takes on a few players on his own and wazza some people, Origi pops up in the right places, reads throughball very well and is good in the air(think about the amount of balls his won- most of them lacking confidence to make anything useful of them). If you haven't noticed - due to his qualities - ORIGI WAS INVLOLVED IN ALL THE GOALS. That shows you what a prospect we have. I'll take that thanks.

I wouldn't swap the two. We've got one of them and I'm satisfied. As I said different skilsets, but they can both put the ball in back of the net- that's good enough for me.

There skill sets are very similar, Martial is just more advance in his progression and probably has more potential which he should given the 40m differerence in transfer fee.

[the_red_pill]

There skill sets are very similar, Martial is just more advance in his progression and probably has more potential which he should given the 40m differerence in transfer fee.

You can't look beyond the fact Origi was the main frontman for Belgium though, Coolie.
That's becaue he's more direct and he has power - similar to someone like Benteke. That tells you something about his progression in relation to Martial.
Martial spends more time on the ball, Origi doesn't- his first gaze is towards goal and the quickest way to get there(which always invloves passes and runs- not taking on 3/4 players)- look at his involvement in the goals: he plays forward immediately in every situation- using passes or runs into space towards it.

In a passing team- Martial would look more accomplished, but at the end of the day- it's the net that matters and we have someone who's like Martial in Sturridge and others who can bring Origi/Benteke into play.

[LiamG]

Great tactical analysis here http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/12/03/southampton-liverpool-16/

[Roger Federer]

Isn't it interesting how Sturridge comes back in and suddenly our midfielders are all maestros that can play perfect through-balls.

Indeed. Can's touch and pass we're both brilliant but look at Sturridge and how early he starts his run. As soon as Can has bought himself the space to make his pass, Sturridge is on his way well before the defenders have a clue about what is going on. He's about level their right back when Can first gets the ball, but all alone as when he scores.

Origi also made a great run for his second goal, but no one does is so consistently well as Sturridge. His hold up play is underated too, the ball sticks to him even now when he isn't at his best. Brilliant player, our most important one.

[FlashingBlade]

The second

Gerrard to Owen.

[Sangria]

I'd like to point out a few pieces of technique that's gone unmentioned so far. Firstly, Sturridge's finish for the second. Can's pass has been justifiably praised, but the finish was also superb. First touch on the half volley, which is never easy, but also with his right foot. A couple of years ago, Sturridge would have been going into contortions to try and get the ball onto his left foot. Nowadays, he's comfortable enough with his right foot, which is no longer just for standing on.

Secondly, Ibe's pass to Origi and the fourth. Thanks to Origi's position and the awful positioning of the defenders, Ibe actually had a fairly large area to aim at. Nonetheless the pass was perfectly weighted, and just as importantly, as soon as the opportunity opened up, he slid the pass through, even though it was on his left foot.

Thirdly, Ibe's goal. Again, what tickled me was how Ibe saw the opportunity of a gaping near post, and just smacked it home without any more complications. When you see the chance, take it as simply as possible.

[redbyrdz]

Don't want this to sound like I'm ripping into Origi, though he did brilliantly. But to me there's still quite a big gap in in class between Sturridge's finishes and Origi's finishes.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Don't want this to sound like I'm ripping into Origi, though he did brilliantly. But to me there's still quite a big gap in in class between Sturridge's finishes and Origi's finishes.

Well, this is to be expected
---  one player is 26 years old, played with three of the best clubs in England (Europe), and has over 80 league goals.
---  the other is  20, just getting to a club with some pedigree (apologies Lille), and has had fewer opportunities

The real comparison should be age-related -----> At Age 20 this is how they performed (goals scored)

Man City Sturridge (26 appearances - 4 goals)
Liverpool Origi (11 appearances - 3 goals)

Lets give the lad some time before comparing him to the top forwards in Europe.

[CHOPPER]

Aren't you supposed to give it a few posts before you start you're ripping

Started with a schoolboy basic error and never recovered from that. Everyone knows its tails. Tails, tails, tails all the time....  coz Tails never fails!


We need to practice our tossing

[Giono]

Isn't it interesting how Sturridge comes back in and suddenly our midfielders are all maestros that can play perfect through-balls. Not taking anything away from Allen or Chan - brilliant through-balls they were - but isn't is great to have Studge back?

Very true. It takes two to make a thing go right.

His runs and timing have been greatly missed.

[Jaron]

I'm going to throw this out there.
I believe that successful attacking teams do one of two things with the ball.
They pass it first time or they run with it, (either kicking and chasing or close-control dribbling).
Both are challenging to defend against, both tend to make things happen.

My memories of Rodgers' final team was of one that had lost the confidence to play balls first time, and lost the players who we prepared to dribble or knock and chase (chiefly Suarez and Sterling). As a result, our strikers stopped making runs beyond the last defender - because really, there wasn't any point, if your team-mates aren't going to release it at just the right time, you're always going to offside. If you ever receive the ball at all.

My pet hate is what I've seen the Reds do far too often in recent years: receive the ball, trap it, and jog forward with it. It was as if it had been drilled into them, the ball is precious, we are possession team, don't loose it. The problem was, we become slow, turgid and predictable. Remember being told after another underwhelming performance, "disappointing, but look how much percentage possession we had..."

In Rodgers' last few months it was like watching a Rugby Union side playing, episodes of meticulously practised passing as if we were trying to work an angle to set up a drop goal attempt. Which reached its nadir in the ludicrous shoot-on-sight tactics we saw in the game against Carlisle.

I wonder if analysis companies like ProZone keep stats on momentum?
You could define as the speed the ball travels forward divided by time.
The faster and further a player moves a ball, the greater their contribution to our momentum.
I would love to see stats like that.

Der Boss may be famous for gegenpressing, but I don't think that's the whole story. I think it's a marriage of what do without the ball (press it, win it) and what you do when you've got it (pass it or run with it, just don't dick about with it). And that's fundamentally what's changed since Klopp took over.

Discuss.