Topic: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 0-2 Arsenal

[royhendo]

Well, what can you say? I thought Arsenal were controlled, and in particular the midfield three were excellent. The two goals were genuine moments of quality in channels we're gonna look vulnerable in while we're bedding into this system - that ball in behind the full-back, who's gonna be on the turn in this formation. We need to learn how to deal with that.

Questions.

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?

- Was Sahin ready to start that game?

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?

- Will Suarez hit form?

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?

On a positive note:

- What about Sterling?

- What about Allen?

And Shelvey did well late on.

An odd position. It's clearly not the Hodgson-related feeling of powerless despair; but equally, it's not clicking yet. Will it click given time?

[archie]

My Answers
1- no
2- no (defensively)
3- no but he has to get game time and get up to speed sooner rather than later.
4 - yes I believe there is an issue with Pepe.
5 - yes Suarez is too good not to surely?
6 - Yep - in the style of a past manager who it's probably best not to mention.

There are positives and some good individual performances (Hard to believe I know!). I suppose the difficulty is that there is a lot of inexperience in our starting line - up. Some are thriving on this, others are finding it difficult. Today highlighted that.

We must be careful not to destroy those playing well with far too many games. Whilst we should protect those maybe not having the best of starts from going into their shells (Pepe included).

I really think we should sack off the Europa league. Our best players should be nowhere near it and they should be kept as fresh as possible for league games. That is our priority. It's not something I ever dreamed I would think or say but i feel that is realistic.

We knew the start of the season would be hard, we knew that tough questions would be asked. We even acknowledged that things may get a little worse before they get better. But one week ago we showed that we are capable, let's not forget that.

Saw plenty of folk here loving the Spurs boos yesterday. Well, lets remember we are better than that and we are here to support our team in a difficult period (who knows how long that could last?), not abandon it.

Nowt wrong with a bit of constructive criticism, even a bit of rage now and again.
It's 3 games in, 2nd September. Lots of football to be played.


(Sorry Roy, not really a post about the game in the end) 

[Hinesy]

"Moments and Margins" those are my keywords here. I really thought we were both evenly matched, both fairly toothless and for the majority of the game, cancelled each other out.

Gerrard's moment and Sterling's margin when striking the post were two examples of how a game can seem one sided when in fact it wasn't.

That doesn't hide the fact that Gerrard had a poor game. He can do the miraculous, I just wish he'd also concentrate slightly harder on the normal.
Like Martin last week, or Pepe midweek, it is a little alarming how senior players have 'senior' moments and I'm bothered that we still don't look like we'll score at will.

Arsenal defended well and passed well. That much I expect of them. But they didn't pass us to death nor explode into life except for the goal and several minutes later when Giroud missed. But we had no answer nor plan beyond getting to the 18 yd box.

The positives: few. Sterling one of them. It wasn't a drubbing. Slowly but surely we're finding our feet. That's it for me though. Even if we'd won, it looked a totally different vibe to last week's City game, like we were tired or not really up for it.
The negatives: Goals, Shelvey, lapses of concentration. Perhaps the transfer window shutting had given us all a stiff neck from the cold draft left by the absence of a replacement for Carroll.

[Yorkykopite]

Well Arsenal deserved to win that. They played with a useless lump at centre forward and a cumbersome centre back who picked up a yellow in the first ten minutes. Despite that they were largely comfortable winners and quite a bit better than we were. Diaby didn't lose the ball once and moved threateningly with it all afternoon. About 15 minutes into the first half I just gave up on the idea that we'd be able to take it off him. I think most of our players did too. His movement off the ball was something else as well as he constantly ran beyond our defence and allowed his teammates to pour into the gaps that opened on the edge of our box. He was fit, fast and full of purpose. In fact he looked like Steven Gerrard as his best.

We of course got Steven Gerrard at his worst. Some of his play today was moronic and only occasionally did he stir himself to come back and help when (the wonderful) Arteta escaped his defensive moorings and joined their attacks. Roy, you asked about Gerrard and the new style of playing. I'm not surprised. It's developing into a big concern. He makes so many stupid decisions when he has the ball and is often apparently amazed (and therefore rocking back on his heels) when someone does a quick, short pass to him. To be fair to Steven he fought well in the closing ten minutes and sent in Suarez with a beautiful first-time pass. But the damage had been well done by then. 

Given Sahin's understandable lack of sharpness and Gerrard's general woefulness it was no surprise that we offered very little going forward and that all the midfield menace came from them. It's far too early to make a call on Sahin. But you wonder what Mourinho wants him to learn and why he thinks the Premier League is the place he can learn it. Is it the heart to keep fighting even when the odds against you? At one point in the first half he simply stopped chasing Diaby when Diaby was bearing down on our back-4. That wasn't tiredness. It was cowardice. But then there was a bit of a yellow streak throughout the team today - especially on the ball.  Even our skilful players like Glen Johnson looked leaden and heavy.

The exception was Joe Allen who was streets ahead of all his teammates bar one. He's a special talent and, even at the end of the game, was still taking on huge burdens in both defence and attack. But you can't do that job alone. Here's praying that Lucas gets back sooner rather than later. If nothing else it will give Brendan options in central midfield. What a pity that Brendan didn't nick Leon Britton from Swansea as well. 

The only other Liverpool player who came out well was obviously Raheem Sterling. Who cares how young he is? He's got guts and self-belief as well as  enormous talent. Are there any other youngsters who've got these three qualities and might seize their chance under the present circumstances? Suso perhaps? Although the lack of a right foot might let him down, as well as a half-arsed attitude to defending. The one I'd like to see, especially given how stretched we are up front, is Michael Ngoo. Unfortunately he appears to behind Morgan at the moment.

I really can't be arsed writing anymore. Very dispiriting performance. Would Clint Dempsey have made the difference? Probably not. Would Andy Carroll? No.

[royhendo]

When the first half ended, I honestly thought we'd equalise early 2nd half and go on to win it. The goal deflated us but we grew back into it (save for Giroud's miss).

Quite harsh some of the comment on Pepe - both were good finishes.

[Chakan]

I thought we controlled most of the game. For the first 25 minutes we were knocking it around playing through Arsenal. The problem was that we hardly ever looked like scoring (where have I heard that before?) Borini had a mare infront of goal but was ok in other areas. Suarez had a mare of game. His 1 on 1's were shocking, never beat his man cleanly and got past the defender. Gerrard the less said about his game the better. He was shocking. Lost count of the number of times he gave the ball away (1 leading to the first goal).

Questions.

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?
I don't know really we looked a bit toothless upfront. When Suarez is off form who is there to fall back on? We could have used a striker , we still can.

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?
I thought we did well in midfield, it was when they (Arsenal) bypassed the midfield that they looked dangerous,we needed to get Allen on the ball more, Sahin was lacking quite a bit of match fitness and Gerrard we less said the better.

- Was Sahin ready to start that game?
I don't think he was ready, seemed very off the pace and was quite anonymous for most of the game. Sure he will get better, but honestly would have preferred Henderson/Shelvey to play instead.

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?
I don't know what is up with Pepe. The hearts howler and now the 2nd for them. He really should have done better. Seems like his confidence is shattered. We need to being in a decent goal keeper coach and get him playing at his best.

- Will Suarez hit form?
I thought Suarez was on form for the City game. Gave them a torrid time. Had a mare today with not getting past his man, which is usually his strength. Maybe playing him on thursday was a mistake? The again without that we might not have got past Hearts. Again lack of striking options is going to bite us in the ass this season.

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?
Its a strange one, on his day Gerrard can turn a match in your favor. When was the last time he did it though. His game today was woeful. Gave the ball away too many times and then never managed to fight for it back. I keep expecting him to take the game by the scruff of the neck and turn it around and so far I am still waiting. BR looks to be selecting his squad on performance based players, is Gerrard really sure of his spot? Should he be an automatic selection? Tough questions for BR.

On a positive note:

- What about Sterling?
This boy is a star and something special. So young and causing defenders to have nightmares already. His turn and shot that hit the post was sublime. Really deserved a goal. Had a great game, the only thing I worry about is burning him out. We do need some other options to bring the lad in slowly.

- What about Allen?
Allen clearly prefers to play a bit more forward, he works fantastic off Lucas. Unfortunately he is now pegged back a bit cause of the Lucas injury. In todays game you can see he didn't get the ball in attacking position too many times, he's like a Xabi midfielder except with shorter passing But he's a bargain at 15m. Think he will turn out to be our signing of the season honestly. So happy to have this lad. Can definitely do the job.

An odd position. It's clearly not the Hodgson-related feeling of powerless despair; but equally, it's not clicking yet. Will it click given time?

Tis odd, we are playing some really good football though, and yes it's just not clicking into full gear, but at least we have a direction and I can see what BR is trying to do. Trust me when it clicks it will be sublime.

[Yorkykopite]

Yes, Pepe had no chance with the first. The second was difficult too. If he'd failed to get a hand on it and the ball had simply flown into the night he wouldn't be criticised at all. Which is mad if you think about it.

Suarez had a bad game by his standards. But christ what a worker. The ref cocked up too. That was a pen when the German lump yanked him back to stop him reaching Gerrard's cross. Wasn't it still 0-1 at that stage.

[Chakan]

Yes, Pepe had no chance with the first. The second was difficult too. If he'd failed to get a hand on it and the ball had simply flown into the night he wouldn't be criticised at all. Which is mad if you think about it.

Suarez had a bad game by his standards. But christ what a worker. The ref cocked up too. That was a pen when the German lump yanked him back to stop him reaching Gerrard's cross. Wasn't it still 0-1 at that stage.

The 2nd was difficult but for a keeper of Pepe's prowess he should have done better, got down a bit quicker and stopped it. It went underneath him hit his elbow and went in. Hard but not unstoppable. The 1st one he could do nothing about.

The problem is Suarez is never going to get those kind of Pens. EVER. No ref in the league will give it to him. Yes it was still 1-0 at that stage and it would have change the complexion of the game. As we were on top for that passage of play. I think we would have kicked on from there. But as I said , no ref in this league is going to give Suarez that type of pen.

[Hinesy]

Good account Rhi couldn't agree more.

[BabuYagu]

Well.... that was utterly uninspiring wasnīt it?

In fairness.... we had a game just 72 hours earlier and that explains how we looked exhausted second half whereas Arsenal looked fresh. We were the better team first half though that canīt be disputed. There are a few fundamental problems with this side though that has nothing to do with our lack of attackers.

Gerrard is really starting to eat away at me. He isnīt what Rodgers wants in a midfielder. Shelvey is. Henderson is. My biggest problem with him is that he seems to have no responsibility when we loose the ball. Whether Rodgers has given him that freedom or whether he just shuts off when we loose it, itīs a problem. For their first goal he gave it away. At that point he is level with Podolski. However instead of turning and charging back with the rest of the team he takes a little hop, skip and then jogs back. At other times he sprints back into position and marks their deepest midfielder.... however most of the time you see him walking back with no Arsenal player near him. He is also very careless in possession but isnīt alone there.

Enrique is going to be a problem too I think. He has a tendancy to play without looking up. Quite often you see him get his head down, shuffle around with the ball at his feet then pass blindly to where he last saw a Liverpool shirt... usually now occupied with an Arsenal shirt. Reinaīs hands have just completely gone to pot. No idea what is wrong there. He looked excellent against West Brom, one of the few who did. Ever since though he has started fumbling everything. Itīs like watching De Gea from 12 months ago.

Sahin looked quite off the pace but we know he is a top quality player. I think the 2 week break will benefit him and Assaidi (no clue why he wasnīt on the bench instead of one of the many defenders) more than the rest. Hopefully it also gives Rodgers some time to hammer some ideas into those who donīt have International commitments.

We had enough quality on the pitch today to win that game. Our attacking threats are Suarez, Sterling, Borini, Gerrard and Downing. So when Borini, Suarez and Gerrard all look completely inneffective in attack any side is going to struggle. Sterling was impressive again, Downing had a few good moments when he came on but the 3 we expect the most from are all failing massively to deliver at the moment. The freekick and his wonderful solo effort v Hearts aside, Suarez has been incredibly poor so far this season. He is still working hard for the team, as is Borini, but neither have really offered any threat at all. Neither has Gerrard and he isnīt even doing his team job very well (if at all). Until 1 or 2 of those start firing we are going to struggle.

Now for the good. Shelvey really impressed me when he came on. Downing looked better too. Rodgers seems to have instilled a little confidence in him. If he can build on that and get a couple of good performances under his belt I think we could still have a useful player there. Sterling was very impressive though and probably my pick for man of the match again. Allen would press him hard for that though. Has he made a single mistake yet in a red shirt? Agger & Skrtel did little wrong, I just wish Agger had scored that free header in the first half. How different would things have been then? Thatīs it though.

Giroud for Arsenal looks the most useless striker I have seen in this league for quite some time. He offers zero movement. Is a poor finisher with either foot and for someone so big he seemingly cannot head a ball. Maybe he is just finding his feet but I think Arsenal have signed another Chamakh there instead of the next Henry. Even when strikers are not scoring goals (Suarez, Borini) you can take some encouragement from how dangerous their movement is, how hard they work for the side. Giroud just offered nothing and I think Arsenal have signed a real dud. 

Itīs going to be a long 2 weeks stewing over that performance. Hopefully it gives us time to put our game together on the training pitch.

[BazC]

Arsenal played very well today, classic counter attacking when they inevitably won back possession from a move breaking down with Gerrard/Suarez, focusing on the gaps left down our right by a marauding RB. It was clinically executed for both goals.

The ideas are right for Liverpool but the execution was woeful today. Allen and Sterling apart of course. We're used to Gerrard and Suarez bringing top class creativity to score goals and help us win games. But, they shouldn't be at the heart of a possession based game. I remember raising this point about Gerrard a while back, because he's not intelligent enough in the middle of the park in my opinion. He should be the guy (like Suarez) who's the player in the last phase of play- in and around the box, scoring and assisting goals. Not 30 yards from goal in my opinion. That's not new of course, it's why Rafa had him on the right at one point (where he had an amazing season). It's a massive shame that Lucas is out, because we need a midfield of him and Allen with hopefully one of Sahin/Shelvey who are as clever with the ball. Gerrard needs to be in the attacking 3 and have instruction to be more direct and focused on scoring. I don't think he should be so central to our play, and I don't think we're going to be successful if he is. Allen, for example, looks like he's got the quality to be our main player in the middle of the park. Lucas will be there and hopefully we'll see Sahin give us a quality season when he gets up to speed. But Gerrard and Suarez need to be the spear heads, not dropping deep so much to collect the ball. It's just not helping us in my opinion, and certainly didn't today.

The positives, again, for me were Allen, Sterling and Shelvey. The former 2 were very good, but because they're new into this team, they're going to get better. You can still see that the ball gravitates to Gerrard and Suarez when there's no need for it to. I think Sterling fell foul of that today- but when the ball did find itself on the left with him, we looked the most dangerous we had when attacking. The more this lad plays, the more the team will learn about him, and the more he'll find himself on the ball running at defenders and causing problems.

Allen was just class. I was a massive fan of Alonso, he's probably my favourite player of all time, so I'm massively pleased we've got Allen, because the lad plays the same game. Quick turnover of possession and playing the intelligent pass. There was one point in the 2nd half where he found himself surrounded by 3-4 Arsenal players. I thought he'd lose it, but he's very adept at that slight touch/half turn on the ball in such tight areas that the ball somehow found itself to a red shirt. It was fantastic work by him to escape from that situation and I'm sure it had many a fan cooing at how class it was. Well, maybe more would have been had we not been 2-0 down at the time and most of the other men in Red barely showed half that quality today. The Allen-Lucas axis, on paper at least, looks like it can be that solid foundation we lost when the Mascherano and Alonso partnership was broken up.

Of course a lot will be made of the fact we didn't have a striker to bring on. The only "attacking" option we had was Downing, and I say "attacking" very loosely, because he's not so great at it. Although to be fair he had a couple of good instances where he did positive stuff on goal, but I doubt anyone expected him to help win us that game, and of course, he didn't.

And what's with Borini? I don't know his game much, so I'm wondering what type of player he is. If he's a striker why is he always out wide? Why is Suarez the one in the middle when it's clear as day that his best work is done from wider areas (which he finds himself in anyway). Who should be in the middle? Midfielders running in to support the attack from deep? Sahin sort of did this, Gerrard of course... but to no great effect today.

There're a lot of teething problems to get over of course but I'd still like to see more of a structure to our play. The roles of Gerrard, Suarez and Borini are the ones I don't understand in terms of how they 'fit'. I think they'll be key.

[Degs]

Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?

Yes, a massive cause of the result.
By the manager's own admission he was expecting at least 1 new player, obviously Clint Dempsey.
We're 1 first team player down and when Shelvey came on today that was the perfect situation to introduce Dempsey. The first half was tight and we kept possession well but there was never any penetration and a goal seemed unlikely.  When Shelvey was brought on it was with this problem in mind.

Did Friday's debacal cause us to play a match without the first teamer we expected to be there? Yes.  Was the lack of that player evident? Yes. Did we lack a plan B because he's on the ale with Kevin Nolan in Covent Garden? Yes.

Friday has fucked us for a good few months.

Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?

We're told Brendan Rodgers doesn't deal in numbers but in 8 horizontally banded zones.
Never was this more evident than today.
I'm bang in the middle of the Kop, today I felt like I was watching a live-action version of Space Invaders.  Every move forward was done so in a systematic moving of the line.

It was so easy for Arsenal's midfield and defence to defend against. We played the ball sideways across the front of them and slowly crept forward, waiting for the perfect opportunity to place a bending shot into the top corner of the goal.

Arsenal on the other hand had a midfield 3 that was never in a static line, Song found the spaces more than anybody but you felt that they could switch that at any minute.

Also I don't think it's 4-3-3 but 4-2-3-1

Was Sahin ready to start that game?

Yes, and he did his job well. The problem is he should not have been selected with Joe Allen.
I had this problem in Rafa's last season and was harangued by the Lucas Leiva F.C. brigade but when Mascherano and Lucas were available to be selected then although they are both very good players one, Lucas at the time, should not have been in the first 11.

I foresee the same problem with Sahin and Allen.  Both are very good players but do we need both to be doing the same job in a 2 man midfield?  We looked much better with Shelvey breaking from the line of 2 and having the balls to shoot. For me Shelvey deserves a start ahead of Sahin.

Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?

Yes.

Will Suarez hit form?

Yes...if he's played on the left wing.

Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?

No, there's a very easy one.
Bench him, he's out of form and causing our attacks to break down.
I'd personally play Henderson there for at least 1 match.

On a positive note:

- What about Sterling?

- What about Allen?

And Shelvey did well late on.

Yep, the naivety of youth to just fucking go for it even if it means breaking from the pass pass pass mantra.
No fear, brilliant. 

An odd position. It's clearly not the Hodgson-related feeling of powerless despair; but equally, it's not clicking yet. Will it click given time?

It could but equally it could not.
Unlike at Swansea a bad result can not be brushed off, it's a bad taste that lingers until it is either cleansed or chokes.

I worry we're trying too much too soon.  There has been no ease into this system, even if you don't look like you fit the system you're written off before a ball is kicked (Carroll). We're in the deep end.
This is the system I want, as much as I loved our time under Houllier and Rafa it was defence first.  I want attack, I want keep ball, I want our defenders arsing about in their own area.  I'm willing to wait for it but what I can't stomach is the simple mistakes from on high like not knowing how much something will cost and how much you have to spend until 4 hours before a 2 month window shuts. 

[Yorkykopite]

Yes, a massive cause of the result.
By the manager's own admission he was expecting at least 1 new player, obviously Clint Dempsey.

Why would Dempsey have made any difference today? Let alone a "massive" difference? He's had even less of a pre-season than Sahin has had.

[Degs]

Why would Dempsey have made any difference today? Let alone a "massive" difference? He's had even less of a pre-season than Sahin has had.

I'm still massively pissed off which probably has something to do with it but the game was crying out for somebody who could play between the lines, it should be Gerrard's job (not just Sahin's) but it's obvious players suffer with Thursday/Sunday games and we're at least 1 player down, probably 2 so it will happen again.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm still massively pissed off which probably has something to do with it but the game was crying out for somebody who could play between the lines, it should be Gerrard's job (not just Sahin's) but it's obvious players suffer with Thursday/Sunday games.

I'm massively pissed off too. But the idea that Dempsey could have altered the result is moonshine surely. I think you're right about the Thursday fixture. We were made to work incredibly hard by Hearts. I said before the game that we'd struggle against Arse if the game wasn't put to bed by the 70th minute. In fact we tired even earlier. Suarez, in particular, looked tired in mind and body. It will be a very long season for him.

But let's give Arsenal and Wenger some credit. They were better than Man City. They were brilliantly organised once they'd lost the ball and they hit us quickly when we lost it in attack and sent players into areas where we were vulnerable. Wenger had thought hard about this match and it showed. Arteta is some player too. We all knew he was great on the left or right side of midfield. Who would have thought he was so accomplished protecting his back four?

[Degs]

I'm massively pissed off too. But the idea that Dempsey could have altered the result is moonshine surely. I think you're right about the Thursday fixture. We were made to work incredibly hard by Hearts. I said before the game that we'd struggle against Arse if the game wasn't put to bed by the 70th minute. In fact we tired even earlier. Suarez, in particular, looked tired in mind and body. It will be a very long season for him.

But let's give Arsenal and Wenger some credit. They were better than Man City. They were brilliantly organised once they'd lost the ball and they hit us quickly when we lost it in attack and sent players into areas where we were vulnerable. Wenger had thought hard about this match and it showed. Arteta is some player too. We all knew he was great on the left or right side of midfield. Who would have thought he was so accomplished protecting his back four?

It's not "Dempsey" as such it's A.N.Other.
We're a man down, a man down in a side that has already lost Kuyt, Maxi, and Bellamy before mentioning Carroll, a man down coming off the back of hard Thursday night game.

This will happen again.
Our Post-Europe Fixtures:

Young Boys (H)
Man Utd (H)

Udinese (A)
Stoke (H)

Anzi (H)
Everton (A)

Anzi (A)
Chelsea (A)

Young Boys (A)
Swansea (A)

Udinese (H)
West Ham (A)

We should have brought in at least 2 first teamers in the squad who can come in for Suarez/Gerrard.
We didn't, play them in Europe and the league and this happens again.

Against Hearts Suarez, Gerrard, Allen, Reina, and Skrtel all played 90 minutes.
Sterling played half an hour while today's substitutes Downing and Shelvey played 90 minutes.

Imagine when they have to fly to the worst shithole in Russia for Thursday, play 90 minutes, be back on Sunday to play at Stamford Bridge. Carry on like this and we'll get twatted everywhere.

Threadbare.

I'm struggling to try and pick a team to take into those matches:
Reina, Kelly, Carra, Coates, Robinson, Sahin, Shelvey, Downing, Assaidi, Henderson, Morgan.

Subs:  Jones, Flanagan, Robinson, Pacheco, Suso, Wilson, ?

[Azi]

 I think we can all agree first twenty mins we bossed the game and had Agger scored the result might have been different but after that i never felt were going to score, starting from the front three, Suarez  first touch was if he was wearing steel boots rather than fitba boots the ball seemed to repel him ,Borini for me is lost on the wing switch them two about and i think they may be more effective but Sterling was a bright spark although he did tire in the second half I just hope we don’t knacker him out rest him in the Europa league he’s now a guaranteed starter in my books,

now the middle of the park is where i think we lost it Sahin was not match fit and Allen (immense btw) could not do it all on his own whenever they attacked we seemed to part like the red sea (stolen from twitter ), Gerrard for me is the elephant in the room at the minute for me he brings nothing he’s looked off the pace for a few weeks now and I think he’s struggling and can’t do 2 games in three days and now going off for international duty is not going to help either  he needs to recharge his batteries i think Henderson deserves a chance in the middle while Gerrard recovers,

Defensively i don't have too many complaints back four was ok for the goals I'm not too harsh on Pepe first one was little he can do and the second one another day he saves it, it’s just a string of bad luck he’s having our main problem is we don't seem to have to have a backup keeper we can trust and do what Mr Alex Ferguson does with De Gea take him out of the spot light and play Lindegaard  (why i was campaigning for us to sign Craig Gordon at the end of last year ).


Now apart from today’s game i think our biggest problem is we're trying to run before we can walk with this new system when rafa came in his first season before he made any drastic changes the first thing he done was make sure 1 our defence was watertight and 2, we could do the basics today this season we can’t seem to do either I'm not kidding myself i know the job Rodgers has to do is huge so i won’t be getting too carried away with results like these or the ones against city last season, and am pretty sure we will be on the end of another defeat by 2/3 goals before the end of the season what’s important to me is how we react I’m not sure on the stats but i can’t remember the last time we came from behind and won a game (excluding the fa cup semi) we almost seem defeated maybe it’s a confidence thing i don’t know with Torres/kuyt you always felt in the 90th minute we could score but now its if Suarez is having a off day whose your goal going to come from ?  Even if we had signed Dempsey I don’t think he would have made a difference coming of the bench due to his lack of playing time at Fulham, Wenger got his tactics spot on and needs to get the credit for it ,Diaby was a beast for them.
Us fans need to realize its a work in progress and unless some rich Arab is going to come in and spend millions their aint no quick fix it will take time and we need to be patient. You hope FSG also know this but if the past year is to go by it seems their also learning the ropes as they go along.

[the 92A]

I was in awe of Diaby today, him and Arteta, slowly imposed themselves and by the end of the game were Giants. I'm not clever enough to know exactly where it fell down for us, at first we suffered because after some fantastic bits of inticate passing play a lazy ball would concede poccession. Often this breakdown was from Gerrard or Suarez.who both struggled today but the difference between failure or success is so small. I thought tiredness played apart today particulary towards the end but saying that we still had chances right through the second half. When shelvey came on he put in a good shift but Allen and Sterling are outstanding

Pepe's not having the best of times but so what, he's a world class goalkeeper and we're lucky to have him, during all the shite he's stuck with us, we'd be mad to consider replacing him.

Without overplaying the last day of the transfer window, it wasn't good missing out on a forward the manager obviously wanted, when the sums mentioned were so low compared to the millions we seem to have no problem writing off on Commolli's dealings. Whether missing out on a forward would have effected todays result, who knows but we could do with a forward and Lucas back. Remember Rafa saying as Gerrard aged he'd be better moved forward, may be something in that.

My biggest gripe is the crowd, apart from sections at the back of the kop, too many don't support the team, they come to moan, tried to get it going in the main stand a few times with no response. I'd ban all those who left before the end twelvth man, don't make me laugh.
 
 
 

[Vulmea]

I did think Friday impacted the game - the crowd, the players, the manager - players looked angry and frustrated even before Arsenal scored - the crowd too had a feel of, dont know how to describe it really - 'disheartened'  maybe - cracks opened further after the goal. The belief of teh previous week was missing I think almost entirely because of Friday.

Would Dempsey himself have made a difference not as a player maybe but as an idea he would have, it would have been a lift rather than a let down. Sturridge on the other hand would potentially have made a major difference.

The other issue here is missing out on the last day - there is no excuse because we were told we wanted to make the deals at the start, get the team together before the US trip. Rank bad management by the club.

Most players are simple beasts give them an excuse and they'll take it - unlike against City we looked ready to get beat, many of the crowd and the players wrote the script before the game.

Some of the players did not look to be impacted by the general malaise - Allen, Sterling, Shelvey all played very well and looked like they believed maybe they haven't been infected yet .

Thursday did not help either - when you saw that team and the amount of time they played you knew we'd be tired against Arsenal - we looked it mentally and physically.

 all just speculative nonesense, these shouldn't be factors but they felt real on Sunday.

Gerrard had a poor game, he's had poor games before. He thinks of himself as a creative attacking midfielder but I'm not sure thats where he should be in the last couple of years of his career.

Suarez has run himself into the floor however dizzy he makes you watching him -= he needs help up top and its not really there - Borini looks like an understudy both look capable but both look like they need the main act to support.

Pepe his head is not right - has not been for a fair while - he's capable of being a far better keeper than he's showing but his concentration has been lacking for a couple of years now - the intensity he began with has given way to complacency almost

Style of play does seem to be very systematic - yet Suarez, Sterling and Shelvey all brought a different dynamic almost off script - and that will be a key part to achieving the penetration that Rodgers says is his goal - stil hopeful that we can make it work but the main part of that is missing - a pecey striker/ finisher

Morgan looks to be a another busy worker - buzzing about everywhere - a good third choice behind Suarez and Borini in that role - Ngoo would offer something different  I'm just not sure and nor is anybody else what you'd get from him - he's wanchopesque.

Its going to be an interesting time until January - baton down the hatches - the screeching stupid reactionary mob are coming and they are all tooled up.

[Garstonite]

Dempsey *may* have been able to trap the ball and allow our midfield to push up, which is more than Suarez (or Borini, for that matter) were capable of doing. That was our major problem. Gerrard giving the ball away on 22 occasions didn't help none, mind.

[killer-heels]

Cant add more really to what has been said but the creativity front is a worry indeed, as is the inability of Suarez to be clinical. You sense that there is loads of work that needs to be done before this group of players can be carving teams up at will, playing Rodgers' system.

[KiNki]

Dempsey *may* have been able to trap the ball and allow our midfield to push up, which is more than Suarez (or Borini, for that matter) were capable of doing. That was our major problem. Gerrard giving the ball away on 22 occasions didn't help none, mind.

short and sweet and precisely this.  Suarez with his back to goal couldnt hold the ball up for others to join in.  Not his fortay but when left without any strikers to do this job, he better learn it and fast.  Gerrard trying to force matters when patience is required.  Not gerrards strongest suit, which is why, imho he should be played further forward. 

[RooiBefok]

With Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher having arrived as youngsters at Liverpool in 1987 and 1990 respectively, no one at the time could have imagined the Legendary Status these two would rightfully attain following our last European Cup win in 2005.  The same year in which a new crowd favourite would arrive at Anfield in the person of Pepe Reina.  These three would go on to form the backbone of our Team for the next seven years and onto the current day.  The trio would be known as the Senior Members of our Team; the Captain, Vice and able Deputy as and when required.  Senior Members that through their leadership and examples, the remaining team players could look up to and follow their lead.

What then has now resulted in the trio’s lack of performance and or motivation?

Jamie Carragher is most probably the easiest of the three to pin down.  At the age of 34 (2012), Carragher still has the heart, the fire, the want and the need to give his all for everything that is Liverpool FC.  He lives and breathes LFC and would die for the cause I imagine, so there is nothing wrong with Carragher’s motivation and drive.  You can still see him mouthing off at every fellow player on the field whether in the capacity of Captain or Vice on the day.  The point being that even if he wasn’t Captain or Vice on the day, he would still be mouthing off at his fellow players, encouraging, correcting and scolding them as and when necessary.  Carragher lacks no motivational qualities and after all these years still tops this category.  However, his limbs no longer compliment the fuel in his heart.  His brain knows exactly where his body should be on the field of play at any given moment, but his legs can’t deliver him in time to the action.

Carragher’s contract ends at the end of the current season.  If the speculation is correct that he had the choice to extend his current contract by a further year and last week declined to institute this option then we can expect to be giving a fond farewell to him come the end of the current season.  This however, does not mean that we have to ensure that he features in every Premier League game for the remainder of the season, whether in the starting line-up or on the bench.  Yesterday, he was placed on the bench alongside two fellow defenders in Coates and Kelly.  What on earth for was the joint cry from every Liverpool supporter?  We do not need three defenders on the bench when playing at Home, at Anfield.  As it was we had further defensive cover in Downing given that Rodgers is in the process of converting him into a full blown defender.  Given the way our game unfolded yesterday it was obvious that we needed more Attacking replacements on our bench.  Unfortunately Carragher is no longer a Premier League player (or Substitute) and should be used in our away legs of the Europa Cup, League Cup and FA Cup Fixtures.  I am of the opinion that because Rodgers is new to LFC and because he wants to favourably cement his relationship with the Supporters, he is nervous to “drop” Carragher from the Premier League Fixtures thinking the Supporters will denounce him.  On the contrary, Rodgers will win over a large proportion of his current detractors.

Where Carragher’s loss of form is due to his body age, Pepe Reina’s loss of form can be attributed to the exact opposite – his mental frame of mind.  At the age of 30 (2012), Reina is at the prime of a Goalkeepers tenure.  His body and physical fitness is not in doubt.  His technical ability is not in doubt as has been attested to over the last seven years.  He represents his country and a year ago the majority of the top clubs around the world would have loved to have him as one of theirs.  Eighteen months on and I’m not too sure if all those clubs still value him in the same light.  He has become mentally frail at times.  One’s mental ability only operates at full awareness if the brain is fully stimulated.  In the case of a sportsman this is through adrenalin and you can only boost your adrenalin if you heart is in the game.  Reina, given the opportunity will talk to you for hours on his love and passion for LFC and its Supporters.  This is not in question but at times you have to wonder if Reina is driven to ‘walk the talk’ when on the field of play each and every time he turns out.

I am also of the opinion that Reina (because of his overall popularity) tends to act “flash” in carrying out his duties.  He tends to over elaborate in all that he does, whether its diving in an artistic arc knowing that the cameras are flashing around the field at that precise moment in time or waiting till the opposition player is practically on top of him before passing the ball to one of his defenders; when a simple dive or immediate pass out would suffice.  Is it perhaps because of this that leads to his careless mistakes at times?

Our ‘Captain Fantastic’, Steven Gerrard who at age 32 (2012) has been the Talisman for so many years, is also a point of concern of late.  At times he looks as though he would like to be anywhere else but on the field of play.  Yesterday was a prime example.  Yes he was his fantastic self when he had the ball at his feet, but the moment he lost possession he seemed to ‘just give up’ and walk away from the point of action.  Is this due to his mental attitude or fitness due to his age?

Is it that having played the full ninety minutes against Hearts on Thursday night, he can no longer play effectively for the full ninety, three days later?  Or as a Liverpool Supporter, the worst case scenario being that Gerrard was ‘saving himself’ yesterday for his upcoming international duty?  This still doesn’t answer the question of whether yesterdays form was due to his mental or physical disposition on the day!

I believe that in Gerrard’s case it is a bit of both.  Whilst he looks in peak physical fitness and his heart tells him that he is capable his 32 year old body is perhaps saying ‘hold up a little lad, I’m battling to keep pace’.  In which case he needs to be rested for the majority of the Europa Cup, League Cup and FA Cup games and saved for Premier League duty.  As for International duty I wish he would retire from that charade and by so doing add a couple of more years to his LFC playing career.  What is of most concern to me is his mental performance as Captain of LFC.  He seems to be the first to ‘drop his shoulders’ when we fall behind in the game whereas in the past he would ‘rally his troops’ and tell them to follow his lead because he is taking the fight to the opposition.  You no longer see him communicating, cajoling or even scolding his Players when the need arises.  Instead he seems to become disinterested and this I’m afraid is not leading by example and gives the wrong impression to the youngsters in the Team.

Rodgers can instill a ‘playing philosophy, style and tactics’, but if certain Players don’t arrive on match-day with their temperament in the right frame of mind, Rodgers is on a high lead to nowhere.

Gerrard, Carragher and Reina are the Senior Players, the Backbone of the Team, those to whom the younger Players look to for leadership and direction, but when these three Players produce performances like Players who think they won't be in the starting line-up for every Premier League game that is when the Teams mental strength and passion starts to quickly erode. 

Rodgers’ would not be frowned upon if Gerrard and Reina were benched for our next Premier League fixture against Sunderland.  Just so as to let them know that they are no longer ‘shoe-ins’ for every Premier League starting line-up.  Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind!

Given the outstanding performances by the Youngsters in the Team yesterday you can safely say that in every aspect:

‘The Teachers were outclassed by their Students’ 

[MatthewRedBlood]

Walking to the ground you could feel the tension among the fans. Walking past people you’d hear the odd word, the one most uttered was “Striker”. I didn’t need to hear the rest of the sentence to work out what they were talking about. It’s no surprise really that the disappointment from deadline day resonated itself around the stadium, but what actually surprised me, was the way it seemed to affect the players. Maybe it’s a coincidence, or perhaps tiredness, but that air of optimism and fight we had against Manchester City, wasn’t evident in our play.

The game itself

I’ve not had chance to watch back over the entire game, so this is going off memory from what I saw.
Yesterday was always going to be difficult, new system or not, I think some perspective is needed. Arsenal are a very good team, and in recent years we don’t tend to have much success against them at Anfield. I think yesterday was the 11th time we’ve met at Anfield without a win in succession, couple that with the deadline day disappointment, thin squad, implementation of a new system, a mid-week game, those hoping us to brush Arsenal aside were being slightly optimistic.

One thing that really stood out for me, is the ability (or limited should I say) of Jose Enrique. Under Rodgers it’s going to be expected that our players play out from the back (someone needs to tell this to the person sat behind me who throughout the game constantly shouted “just fucking twat the thing away”) and for me Enrique seemed to struggle with this constantly running himself into blind alleys, and giving away cheap possession because he doesn’t operate fast enough. As a defender he’s alright, but in terms of the “Rodgers way” he needs to improve for me.

I remember sitting watching thinking “this is a real tactical battle” and in some ways it was, and I think we got it wrong. I’m not suggesting that we’re aiming to play like Arsenal but in some ways, you can see similarities between the two sides, the problem yesterday was, we were trying to beat Arsenal at their own game, problem being they’ve been doing it under Wenger for 14 years, we’ve been doing it for less than 2 months. After the game my dad said to me “Like it not, we should have just scrapped them. It might not of been pretty but it’d of worked. They hate it”. As much as I hate to agree with him he was right. I like to watch good football, but it does beg the question about a plan B within our squad. You’d of had to say Carroll was that option, but of course he’s now gone on loan. I like the idea of the new system X Y & Z, but on days like yesterday, something other than personnel needed to be changed, but our methods remained the same, much to our downfall.

The goal sort of came from nothing really. Sahin looked dreadfully unfit and slow chasing down Diaby, Skrtel was left in no-man’s land, and credit to Podolski, he buried his chance. The most worrying thing about the goal was Gerrard. Casually loses possession and then jogs back, expecting someone else to pick up the pieces. I’m not blaming Gerrard for the goal, because he’s given up possession 80 yards up the field, but his attitude was absolutely terrible once he’d lost it, not something new I might add.
At half time I felt we could still get something from the game. As much as people may laud Arsenal, 1-0 at Half time flattered them slightly. I don’t think we particularly threatened them, but their goal was out of the blue really in my mind.

Their second goal for me was an embarrassment. The movement of Cazorla was brilliant, but it was equally poor from our defending point of view. The guy has literally walked past our defenders, and Pepe Reina has once again produced a howler. How long does it take for bad form to become a serious concern?
Second half really did show where our major weaknesses lie. The attitude of our players when going behind has been very poor for a long time, and that was once again showed yesterday. That fight among our team seems to be completely gone, and it manifests itself in Gerrard perfectly in my opinion with his once again casual manner in our midfield. At times it was like Joe Allen was playing in the middle on his own. When once he’d grab the game the scruff of the neck, and lift the team, he’s now walking around, looking for someone else to do it. Another massive problem is now our inability to score goals, and the fact the people we’re playing are now well aware of it. With a chance to goals conversion rate of less than 10% throughout the team last season, and then offloading Kuyt, Maxi and Bellamy (arguably our best forwards when it comes to chance conversion) Arsenal didn’t really have anything to worry about. Suarez is a danger, but you can afford him 2 or 3 chances. The guy is a great player, but he’ll never be a number 9.
Jonjo Shelvey for me looks more impressive every time he plays, and wouldn’t be surprised to see him starting more games as the season goes on. I’m not suggesting Gerrard should be dropped, but the presence of Shelvey on the bench, coupled with the level of performance should certainly be putting a boot up Gerrard’s arse, or giving Brendan a very hard choice to be making. Either way I think we’re ok in this department. It’s a problem, but good problem to have in my mind.

The bigger picture

It’s very hard not to get carried away, and jump on the “talksport” bandwagon about our start to the season. It was never going to be easy even if we’d brought players in on deadline day. As I previously mentioned we’ve got a horrendous record against Arsenal (this is no excuse but it’s a fact really), not to mention last week we put a very good performance in against the reigning champions, and would of took 3 points if Martin Skrtel hadn’t had a sudden rush of blood to the head.  West Brom was a terrible day, but once again, if you look at the manner of the defeat, 3-0 is an understandable score line. 
1 point after 3 games isn’t great, but it’s a very long season. It’s hard to see past the doom and gloom, but ultimately there will come a point in the season when our fixture list is a little easier. Last season spurs had a fixture list like ours, but what it requires is great mental strength and togetherness. I, as much as anyone would love to see us beating Arsenal and Man City but the reality as we stand, is we lost one and drew the other, but in a few weeks we play Sunderland, and that now should be our main focus, and a game we should be winning irrespective of our previous poor results.

Deadline day was a massive disappointment for everyone really, and I firmly believe no blame should lie with Brendan. Whatever happened, it’s hard to put behind us, but ultimately we have to now and make do with what we have (unless we move for free agents). I’ve seen quite a lot of people post “All this fuss over Clint Dempsey”. I don’t think people are focusing on the player, it’s the state the club is in, to be haggling over 1.5 million for a player who scored 17 league goals last year, after comments from our owners in the summer claiming we have the resources to be able to compete with anyone in football.

One last thing I will add. Anyone on here commenting about Andy Carroll, and how he’s made a great impact on West Ham, needs to have a serious think about what they want. Andy Carroll playing for Sam Allardyce is a match made in heaven. Andy Carroll has always been capable (and that includes his time here) of playing as a target man. He could have done that for us. We could have had Martin Skrtel smashing 60 yard balls to Carroll, knocking the ball down for Gerrard, Suarez et al, but we didn’t. We tried to get Andy to play football last season. Think what you want of it, but Brendan has decided he doesn’t want us playing that type of football. Whether or not you feel Andy could/couldn’t do that, making a comparison of the way Andy played for West Ham at weekend, and how he could do that here is simply ignorant. To get the best out of Andy Carroll, you need the whole team to play a certain way, and ironically it’s the opposite of how our manager see’s the game.

On our summer business, I think I’m happy with it, but I’m annoyed about it at the same time. It was imperative that we found ourselves a goal scorer. My very first post on RAWK sums it up if you care to rifle through. We’ve found a great player in Allen, Borini looks average, but I hear he’s a CF being played out wide so it’s hardly surprising he’s not setting the world alight, and Sahin is once again a great addition.
The difference between us and Arsenal  last season was Van Persie.  Arsenal last season showed you don’t need an amazing “team” to come in the top 4, you need a striker. Last season as a team we created chances galore, to no avail. This season we’ve decided to go into the market for more midfielders, even more creation, and not bring in a proven top level goal scorer, and we’ll pay the price for it until January I feel. 

[Mutton Geoff]

plusses if it is one best attacking option for us was a 17 year old kid, so i will concentrate on Raheem as a good part the only other one was Allen yet again impecable performance from him.

Also Shelvey looks the part, cannot leave him on the bench i feel.

Negatives they cut through our midfield almost at will, they are better organised from back to front, they scored to good goals and have quality in abundance upfront.
Biggest worry for me is not Suarez was off form or Pepe being off form that happens, no for me the biggest worry is in most games he has featured in Stevie doesn't look like he suits this system, either we adapt it to accomodate his freespirit cavalier style of play or we make him our central striker and have him up top with Luis, to me Stevie is a great player but he is not a disciplined player and for Rodgers style you need everyone on the same page, so i feel he gives us more problems in midfield than anybody else, i would have him up front Luis on the right and Raheem on the left and Borini on the bench as an impact player and a midfield of Sahin-Allen- Shelvey.

Also didn't they get most of their deals done early maybe a lesson for the club right there.

[Gravy]

I think the TDD debacle was a direct result to they way some of our players played. If we felt angry and upset about it so did they, and some of their heads didn't look right. It also played a part on the depression in the crowd

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result? .....no unless we were actually after an attacking midfielder which we were not i think.

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio? .....looked like first half the more defensive 2 were doing fine but for their goal both sahin and allens legs looked gone....well sahins really...not sure why allen didnt realise what was happening and bust a gut to help out.
allen did well overall mind.....effectively we were pressing but had no covering midfielders to mark other short target midfielders......note simeone has this one well and truly rubber stamped at atletico madrid.
tactically things are wrong.....very wrong imo.
gerrard certainly does not fit into the team in this form....arguably even if he was in form.

- Was Sahin ready to start that game? ....last half hour maybe

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina? ....do city have a problem with joe hart??
same sort of thing...just goign through a really rough spell.


- Will Suarez hit form?....i think with gerarrd in poor form and clueless at times suarez is getting more and more isolated....note sterling doesnt do the maxi thing and come inside when the balls on the other side....borini does...gerarrd tends to hang back way too much...probably because he cant get back.

see the problem.....no real support for him.

also his touch is going through the same pattern as kuyts did after he joined us.
kuyts touch was excellent when he first joined...with the chaotic football we sometimes play its getting worse.

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard? ...no brainer...Bob would have sold him 2 years ago imo

On a positive note:

- What about Sterling? ...ok i thought...you could see he has improved even from the city game...but our coaching staff needs to get the maxi vidoes out to point out a few little things which could really help the side.

- What about Allen? ...decent player but not a holding player....see example above and the city second goal last week....he wasnt aware tevez was free unmarked....very risky and we paid for it....lucas would not have let that happen 100%

And Shelvey did well late on. ......yes ..i think he is slowly but surely getting there...dont get bigheaded shelvey...just make sure you continue to progress.

[redmark]

Questions.

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?
Yes. I'm not sure whether the players may be more affected by the lack of a striker signing, or their manager complaining several times to the media about his lack of depth upfront, but yes. One of them.

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?
No. See below.

- Was Sahin ready to start that game?
No.

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?
Yes. He's been conceding sloppy goals for over a year. I've got no idea how we deal with that, but it's certainly an issue.

- Will Suarez hit form?
Yes. Personally I'd prefer he did it on the right...

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?
Hmmmm, no. Not yet. Despite being lethargic and sloppy, he actually gradually came into the game as others were fading. He created our best chance of the game, with our best pass of the game, late on. The problem with our discussion of Gerrard seems to be that if he has a bad game (by his standards), it must be the Inevitable Decline, rather than a bad game.

On a positive note:

- What about Sterling?
The most impressive thing about him, for his age, is his awareness. Doesn't get caught dwelling on the ball, generally takes good options. I said tongue-in-cheek elsewhere, however: he might be a couple of games away from a RAWK Where's-the-end-product thread. A goal or a nice setup would do wonders for him.

- What about Allen?
Superb against City, his passing was still tidy against Arsenal and showed good awareness and clever movement. However: he's not Lucas defensively and he created little in the final third. He's a very fluid cog, not the messiah.

And Shelvey did well late on.
He did. PM'd the commentary team at half time saying at least Shelvey would provide Arsenal with the lacking physical energy, which he did, but also good in possession and prepared to shoot.

An odd position. It's clearly not the Hodgson-related feeling of powerless despair; but equally, it's not clicking yet. Will it click given time?
Yes, I think. Like many, I think Borini and Suarez are the wrong way round - or, perhaps more importantly, the front three should be moving and interchanging much more. Defensively... early season rustiness perhaps, but Reina is a concern. The midfield seems strange to me, because apparently the consensus two months ago was that we needed someone who could cover Lucas. Allen can occupy the same position on the pitch, which isn't the same thing at all. Any three of Gerrard, Allen, Sahin, Shelvey and Henderson is going to get overrun at times, I think. Should play some lovely football too, of course.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

plusses if it is one best attacking option for us was a 17 year old kid, so i will concentrate on Raheem as a good part the only other one was Allen yet again impecable performance from him.

Also Shelvey looks the part, cannot leave him on the bench i feel.

Negatives they cut through our midfield almost at will, they are better organised from back to front, they scored to good goals and have quality in abundance upfront.
Biggest worry for me is not Suarez was off form or Pepe being off form that happens, no for me the biggest worry is in most games he has featured in Stevie doesn't look like he suits this system, either we adapt it to accomodate his freespirit cavalier style of play or we make him our central striker and have him up top with Luis, to me Stevie is a great player but he is not a disciplined player and for Rodgers style you need everyone on the same page, so i feel he gives us more problems in midfield than anybody else, i would have him up front Luis on the right and Raheem on the left and Borini on the bench as an impact player and a midfield of Sahin-Allen- Shelvey.

Also didn't they get most of their deals done early maybe a lesson for the club right there.

defo would be a problem with movement.

one thing borini does do is subtle movement although he didnt get a chance to show it sunday.

with the right movement suarez will really hurt sides.

pproblem with having sterling and gerarrd would be NO MOVEMENT and just relying on link up play....sides would just crowd gerarrd out imo and wed have the same old problem...no service from gerarrd to suarez and sterling isolated.

id go a variation of 4-4-2 to play gerard right side but then imo you have to drop sterling and have two strikers in the box....that would then leave one central midfielder having to play leftish.

yes gerarrd certainyl causes more problems and imo i think finally its just not worth it.

time to use as an impact player when we are losing.

[John C]

Having edged the first 20 or 25 minutes I thought we’d settle in to a good passing game with rhythm in our play. From passing our way out of every situation neatly, spreading play and finding Sterling in space we then turned in a team careless in possession and failed to get men forward whenever we did attack. It really was a nice twenty minutes and you’re left flabbergasted wondering how it can fall apart.

Passing is fine if possession eventually leads to penetration and penetration consists of genuine chances created. We haven’t done much of the latter two against Hearts or Arsenal so BR is going to have to quickly adapt his formation to the personnel available currently.

But its always going to be difficult to control a game of football when three of your hopefuls are none existent, Gerrard, Borini and Sahin were unfortunately extremely disappointing today. Particularly when Arsenal weren’t as disjointed as I’d hoped they’d be, alas it was the home team that looked completely out-of-sorts as the game unfolded.

Sterling had a fantastic 45 mins if not a full hour, he caused them problems whilst also tracking back well, except for 1 occasion. Allen was tidy and Skrtel was pretty solid but other than that there’s not many acclamations to issue to the rest of the team.

Obviously all games get watched-back and reviewed, so on reflection of that BR has got to be pointing out where to release it earlier in the final third in particular. I don’t think it was simply the lack of a natural striker that caused the Arsenal box to be permanently vacated by Liverpool players. The Arsenal back 4 could easily had a BBQ in the Anfield sunshine.
But we didn’t lose because Andy Carroll wasn’t on the bench, there were few times last season when he saved the day anyway. There was an unknown presence missing, a void to be filled in a position to be clamed.

Only 24 hours after posting that I was satisfied with our transfer window business, I found myself looking at the bench and wondering where’s the cavalry.  We can’t spend 4 months with 3 defenders on the bench, I appreciate Assaidi will occupy it in due course but other injuries will necessitate the early inclusion of more of the youngsters.

A couple of people posted that it was the worst display they’d seen in years, it wasn’t, I saw 5 or 6 last year, this one was incomprehensibly abject though.

The supposedly ill-fated Arsenal of season 2012/13 looked a vast improvement on last year (cry / sob), meanwhile I think we’re likely to be work in progress longer than new Mersey River Gateway crossing - but with no signs of us bridging the gap.

At least the lack of collectiveness in two of our league games this season has provided RAWK with a renewed collectiveness of fear.

But a post wouldn’t be a post without my mandatory rant about the ref, once again Suarez was deprived of decisions that should have gone his way. It’s a grim reality that were likely to face for the rest of the season.

[leivapool]

Was at this one, pretty disappointing display if I'm honest.

1. My over-riding thought as I lef tthe ground was, "Did we just get out-muscled by Arsenal?"  the team who for seasons used to get out-muscled at all the grounds north of Watford.  And the answer has to be categorically YES.  Podolski, Diaby, Arteta, Vermaelen, these guys are powerful and I think we are now lacking in time-served professionals.  Borini, Sahin, Sterling, Shelvey, even Allen, they are rookies, young, talented, but nothing makes up for premier league experience.  Leaving Suarez as our only time-served forward is a disaster.  If he gets injured, what then?  As it was both he and Gerrard were very poor on the day.

2.  Lucas - Joe Allen  is a brilliant liitle player, and he deservers all the plaudits he is getting, but a DM he is not.  Neat and tidy in possession but plays 10 yards to high up the pitch at times.  Combined with Gerrards desire to lose the ball in dangerous area, at least 3 times (once leading to a goal), Arsenal players had free reign to run straight down the centre of the pitch at out CB's - who were none to pleased.  The loss of Lucas has again de-stabilised our midfield.  Not only does Allen have to play deeper than his natural instincts want, but so does Gerrard.  With Lucas, Allen and Shelvey/Sahin in midfield, we could allow Gerrard to play a more free role.  no Lucas, and this option is gone.

3.  Suarez and Gerrard.  We are screwed if either of these get injured.  We have no replacement yet both were pretty woeful on the day.

4.  Sahin - he's a good player,  not frightened to tackle, made some good runs that weren't spotted.  Needs time to adapt and get match fit, but certainly a good addition to the squad.

5.  Our support.  I was sat in PK7, infront of a scouse lad who spent the whole first half (dunno where he was second half) shouting abuse at our players.  Borini was a shithouse more times than I care to remember,  Enrique needed to hoof the ball more often and everyone else was just shit.  When Henderson started warming up infront of us, he called him some terrible names and said he should have fu*ked off to Fulham.  Seriously, if this is you, you should be ashamed to call yourself a Red.  Not once did this lad say anything posiitve in the whole first half.  Maybe he'd had an argument with his misses, but seriously, we aren't called 'supporters' for nothing.  This combined with the couple who left on 60 mins made me wonder what has happened to the LFC fans.  No singing, no supporting, just bloody moaning and bellowing abuse.  My daughter was left pondering on whether she wants to go the game again

[BabuYagu]

(1) I am also of the opinion that Reina (because of his overall popularity) tends to act “flash” in carrying out his duties.  He tends to over elaborate in all that he does, whether its diving in an artistic arc knowing that the cameras are flashing around the field at that precise moment in time or waiting till the opposition player is practically on top of him before passing the ball to one of his defenders; when a simple dive or immediate pass out would suffice.  Is it perhaps because of this that leads to his careless mistakes at times?

(2) Rodgers’ would not be frowned upon if Gerrard and Reina were benched for our next Premier League fixture against Sunderland.  Just so as to let them know that they are no longer ‘shoe-ins’ for every Premier League starting line-up.  Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind!

Excellent post mate. Those are the two points I would not agree with though.

(1) I donīt see Reina doing this to be honest. He does hold onto the ball longer in possession but that has never been a problem really. I donīt remember him ever getting caught on the ball or passing it to an opponent. Usually he is doing this to either wait for people to move infront of him to create a bit of space or occassionally to drag an opponent towards him leaving someone else unmarked. The longer he waits the longer before the guy closing him down can get back into the game.

(2) I think Gerrard should be on the bench for a whole host of reasons. The first would be "if you donīt want to close down when we loose the ball, Shelvey/Henderson will". The second is to give us an attacking threat from the bench. Our bench was so disheartening yesterday and I think when we were struggling to make something happen the players on the pitch deflated knowing there was nobody who could come on and pick them up. Gerrard with fresh legs against a tired team is also going to pose the biggest threat to an opposition than from the start IMO. Also using him sparingly will ultimately prolong his career. He isnīt a young lad and his injury record in recent seasons is almost on a par with Aurelio. If we play him week in week out I guarantee you he will miss 50% of the season with injuries, rehab or getting back match fitness.

Reina, however, is another point entirely. I think this 2 week break will be great for Reina. Maybe if we had Doni it would be worth entertaining but neither Jones or Gulacsi are good enough. Even Reina in his current form is far superior to them both. Plus I donīt think Reina needs that kick up the arse by being benched. Also what happens if we bench him and get spanked by Sunderland? It may even compound problems. It would make Reina undroppable even for cup and european games as Jones/Gulacsi would have zero confidence.

[stoopid yank]

[

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result? mentally? should not have been

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio? Allen tried- who were our other 2? 

- Was Sahin ready to start that game? no

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina? Somethings not right- how hard is it to get his old gk coach back?

- Will Suarez hit form? not if he is run down by playing 90 minutes Thursday nights..

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?
yes - can a 32 year old play 90 minutes on a Thursday night and still perform 100% come Sunday Morning? If you have played competitive football and are over 32 years old, you know the answer.


In my opinion, the Europa games are a big concern going forward. Just not enough recovery time for so many key players. Is the squad  deep enough to cope? Remember they didn't even have to travel this time. 

[steveeastend]

Great posts so far and not much to add, to me the fitness of our midfield was key, as well as two individual mistakes (again).

Everybody who played football on a reasonable level will know that itīs pretty much impossible to compete when the freshness isnīt there unless itīs against a noticable weaker opponent.
But this wasnīt the case here, Gerrard just lacked this little extra bit in order to do what he wanted to do on the pitch.... but he couldnīt. Same with Suarez and Sahin obviously lacked match fitness and considering this I thought we didnīt too bad.

The system of Rodger is obvious to see, the difference compared to last year pretty noticable as well as that it needs probably until November to get it close to what we wanna see. But then again there is the question if itīs possible to perform on a top level on a regular basis on match day considering the size of the squad not anywhere near big enough to handle thursday/sunday games and the overall number of games (including internationals). Without fitness we will see only an outline of Rodgers ideas but nothing anywhere a finish business required to be competitive.

I think the circumstances couldnīt be more difficult, itīs all been said and discussed... I still believe in Rodgers and his modern approach to football, to me there is no way around this anyway.

[Kansti]

1) In a way yes. The fans, players and even our manager seemed flustered and anxious. There was a creeping negative vibe, if it makes sense. But footballing wise, probably not.

2) Nope. The absence of Lucas was apparent, and Diaby walked all over us.

3) Nope. Looked leggy, but he was bound to play sooner or later anyway.

4) Yes. He's never been the same since Rafa left, its not a case of poor form at all, its his mentality. I would think.

5) Yes. But like many have mentioned, it will probably come if he starts playing off a central striker.

6) Yes. Its a simple decision. Front 3, or bench. Simple as that.


Well, we were pretty much stagnant really. Where can I begin? Lets start with Gerrard. We all know it, he ain't got the engine, but he's still got the legs. Given our current plight, he's probably our most clinical finisher actually. Thats probably the only reason I would keep Gerrard in the squad. Having said that, even if BR puts him up in the front trio, does Gerrard have the discipline to do so? The game against Arsenal: Sometimes I would see him in his best role, roaming behind Suarez, next moment, he's beside Allen, occupying Sahin's position (no wonder he looked confused). I don't understand that at all.

Imho, Gerrard should just play in a false 9 role, or perhaps on the right, since Borini can profit from Gerrard's quality crosses. I know some may argue, that Gerrard is better with his face to goal, rather than his back. But the truth is, the midfielders in Rodger's system requires players who are able to apply pressure quickly, patient in possession, and acute passing. (This is also another reason why I feel Henderson might be a better choice over Gerrard/Shelvey in the bigger games, reflecting back on the Arsenal game, I'm pretty sure Diaby would have a tougher time if Henderson was in there.) Back to Gerrard, you can clearly see that he doesn't possess much of those traits, and he doesn't have the legs and engine to constantly close players down.

In terms of our lack of firepower, I'm not as worried as compared to my worry for players not playing in their natural positions. Borini is an intelligent player, go back to the Borini thread and there is a video of a comparison between his and Andy Carroll's runs. His runs were all sneaky, swift and intelligent. But no one picked up his runs, and it was sad to see that. Credit to him, he has the heart, because he continues to make the runs. Thats why I would like to see him in a Central role, because he can clearly benefit from Gerrard's through balls, and crossing. Suarez can dribble all he want on the left flank for all I care. Another reason why I would want Borini in a central role, because we have Sahin and Allen. In Allen, we have a player who has accurate passing, precise and simple. But people overlook the fact that when he attempts a penetrating/incisive pass, its still accurate. Sahin as we know, is a player of great vision, enough said. Shelvey isn't a bad passer of the ball either, but he needs
to work on keeping possession. Henderson, is also a fantastic passer of the ball. Remember his through pass to Suarez against Hearts? Yeap, I would expect to see more of that if Borini is making the runs down the middle. Just my 2 cents 

[jaffod]

It's not "Dempsey" as such it's A.N.Other.
We're a man down, a man down in a side that has already lost Kuyt, Maxi, and Bellamy before mentioning Carroll, a man down coming off the back of hard Thursday night game.

This will happen again.
Our Post-Europe Fixtures:

Young Boys (H)
Man Utd (H)

Udinese (A)
Stoke (H)

Anzi (H)
Everton (A)

Anzi (A)
Chelsea (A)

Young Boys (A)
Swansea (A)

Udinese (H)
West Ham (A)

We should have brought in at least 2 first teamers in the squad who can come in for Suarez/Gerrard.
We didn't, play them in Europe and the league and this happens again.

Against Hearts Suarez, Gerrard, Allen, Reina, and Skrtel all played 90 minutes.
Sterling played half an hour while today's substitutes Downing and Shelvey played 90 minutes.

Imagine when they have to fly to the worst shithole in Russia for Thursday, play 90 minutes, be back on Sunday to play at Stamford Bridge. Carry on like this and we'll get twatted everywhere.

Threadbare.

I'm struggling to try and pick a team to take into those matches:
Reina, Kelly, Carra, Coates, Robinson, Sahin, Shelvey, Downing, Assaidi, Henderson, Morgan.

Subs:  Jones, Flanagan, Robinson, Pacheco, Suso, Wilson, ?

That's a fucking frightening set of fixtures after our EL ties. Seriously, the way I feel about things right now I'd be surprised if we took more than 2 points from those 6 games.
 I think Brendan's plan backfired spectacularly against Hearts. I think he thought the tie would be done and dusted before the hour was up and then he could have hooked Gerrard, Suarez and Allen. As we know it didn't quite turn out like that and if it hadn't been for a moment of genius from Suarez then all 3 would have played an extra-half hour on top.
 It was poor preparation going into the game against a fully rested Arsenal. I'm afraid I just don't get many aspects of this new system BR is trying to implement. From what I can gather 'pressing' is vital in order to win back possession and play our passing game. We didn't press at all yesterday, just sat deep and allowed Arsenal's centre-mids the freedom to do pretty much whatever they wanted.
 Our full-backs play further forward but to what purpose? They just appear to over-complicate things for me and condense the play. Surely they should be looking to get beyond the opposition back 4 but there is very little evidence of this happening. Even if they did there would be very little to aim at in the box. The 2 centre-forwards we have spend far too much time in areas where they will cause no danger. For me Borini needs to play more central as a focal point to the attack and maybe switch Sterling to the right hand side.
 Joe Allen was again the only positive on a grim day and Shelvey at least showed a willingness to shoot when he came on. Sahin produced a nothing display and with hindsight shouldn't have started. I wouldn't blame Pepe for the 2nd goal as he was left totally exposed yet again by our statuesque defence.
 Before we return to action BR really has to work on chance creation and getting men into the box. I've sat in those stands for 3 hours last week and witnessed some of the dullest football I've seen in a long time. I've seen some shite over the years but even during dire performances there will have been a couple of occasions where you are out of your seat, Suarez's goal aside there has been nothing to get excited about whatsoever.
 Hard to be positive about anything right now on or off the pitch I'm afraid.

[BabuYagu]

5.  Our support.  I was sat in PK7, infront of a scouse lad who spent the whole first half (dunno where he was second half) shouting abuse at our players.  Borini was a shithouse more times than I care to remember,  Enrique needed to hoof the ball more often and everyone else was just shit.  When Henderson started warming up infront of us, he called him some terrible names and said he should have fu*ked off to Fulham.  Seriously, if this is you, you should be ashamed to call yourself a Red.  Not once did this lad say anything posiitve in the whole first half.  Maybe he'd had an argument with his misses, but seriously, we aren't called 'supporters' for nothing.  This combined with the couple who left on 60 mins made me wonder what has happened to the LFC fans.  No singing, no supporting, just bloody moaning and bellowing abuse.  My daughter was left pondering on whether she wants to go the game again

Sorry to hear that happened. Iīve been in that situation many a time at games (not at Anfield though). You end up weighing up whether to say something or not. I remember a guy with 2 young kids at a game asking someone to cut down on the language after the guy spent the first 20 minutes calling everyone a "wankah" or a "cahnt". Of course as he was with a group of mates he couldnīt loose face by getting told what to do by some middleaged guy so he took a swing at him.

Itīs safe to say those 2 kids will have 0 desire to goto a game ever again.

When I lived in Ipswich I ended up attending their games quite regularly and the stewards there were excellent. People were asked to tone it down and ejected from the game if they persisted. Or course people complained that it was heavy handed stewarding but once the 5 or 6 assholes were banned from our stand I started to enjoy the game a whole lot more. People started bringing their wives and kids to the games too. There was more singing from that stand too as people didnīt feel intimidated by the assholes standing behind them.

Sorry, went off on one there a little. IMO this is a stewarding issue. Not sure if the stewards at Anfield can speak to people about that sort of thing but if it was me and I had my kid with me, Iīd speak to the stewards about it and see what happens.

[kenworthy]

Questions.

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?

- Was Sahin ready to start that game?

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?

- Will Suarez hit form?

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?

On a positive note:

- What about Sterling?

- What about Allen?

And Shelvey did well late on.

An odd position. It's clearly not the Hodgson-related feeling of powerless despair; but equally, it's not clicking yet. Will it click given time?

My answers:

1. Absolutely not
2. No. But I am not sure it was due to Lucas' absence or the fact that it was the first time that trio played together as a unit.
3. Yes. He was not spectacular. But also did not make a major gaffe. He was also playing left of center, not his usual position.
4. My heart tells me no. My head tells me we may. Never rest on your laurels and look for a way to improve?
5. Yes, at some point. However, his form is not as clear as just scoring goals. He is not a natural out-an-out goal scorer in the mold of a traditional no. 9
6. There could be, yes. Especially if/when Lucas returns.
7. Sterling looks ahead of his years. I am reluctant to play him every match because of his age. But our squad depth may dictate otherwise.
8. Allen is clearly the man to keep the ball ticking over in the middle of a Brendan Rodgers' midfield. Perfect for the possession-oriented pass-and-move style Rodgers' wants to install.
9. Shelvey is lively and I think should start more. He was aggressive and I think has the right mentality to succeed at the highest levels. Hard to remind ourselves he is only 20.
10. Definitively. May not be until late in the season, or even next year if Rodgers needs to add a piece or two. But yes, eventually it will. Growing pains will continue for some time though. Rodgers should be given time.

[helmboy_nige]

First things first.  We CANNOT blame this result on us having to play on Thursday.  If we do then we are truly screwed this season as we are going to have to go through this many times over, starting with the Man U game (which comes a few days after a europa game).

The atmosphere was woeful and it was in stark contrast to the Man City match.  I can only put that down to the transfer deadline day.  We played well against City and didn't play that badly against Hearts, we should have been on a decent high.  Again, I don't think that signing someone like Dempsey would have made much of a difference on Sunday, because I feel our problems were elsewhere.  But the downbeat attitude must have affected the players as well.

The key issue for me is that we were hampered in central midfield by having only 1 of the 3 (Allen) putting in an acceptable shift.  Gerrard was all over the place on Sunday and seemed incapable of sticking to his role.  If we want him to maraud around the forward line, then he should be in it for me.  His pass that led to the goal should not be used as a stick to beat him with, as other players should have done better when the break started.  However, Gerrard did not hassle in midfield the way that role demands.

Similarly, we were hampered by having a clearly off the pace Sahin in the centre.  He looks good and I think he'll could do an amazing job for us, but having him in the starting lineup, and with Gerrard constantly going missing, the pressure was on Allen to essentially hold the midfield against a very good Arsenal midfield.

Truth is that Arsenal dominated the midfield and were more incisive up front and it killed us.

I may regret this, but I actually think that despite the debacle of the transfer deadline day, this team has a lot of goals in it.  But we need to sort the forward line and midfield 3 as I don't think the setup on Sunday was at all right.

Edit: and my answers to the questions.

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?
Partially, in that the atmosphere and teams body language was poor from the off.
- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?
No. Allen was essentially left to sort it out himself.
- Was Sahin ready to start that game?
Maybe. He wasn't match fit, but I think that would have been fine had the other two stuck to the script. I don't feel Gerrard did.
- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?
Yes. But it's a confidence issue rather than him not being good enough.
- Will Suarez hit form?
Depends on what "form" is.  He'll never lead our line in terms of scoring many goals imo, but as the creator he absolutely should hit form.
- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?
Yes.  And for me it is that he shouldn't be in that midfield 3.  Perhaps he needs to be in the front 3.  Worth a go.
On a positive note:

- What about Sterling?
Superb in first half. Went off the boil for periods of the second half, but that felt like the team not giving him the ball, which was a bit weird.
- What about Allen?
Awesome again.  Felt sorry for him as he really was left on his own.

[Funky_Gibbons]

- Is the transfer deadline day oversight in any way a cause of the result?

Thought the atmosphere at the ground was a little subdued due to the depression of no striker signing on Friday which transferred to some of the players. Didn't have the normal feel of a big game.

- Did our midfield three cope tactically with an excellent Arsenal trio?

I think our midfield trio were not embarrassed by the Arsenal midfield, I certainly wouldn't say they dominated us. We had more shots, more passes, higher pass completion rate, more passes in the final third and more corners, not many teams will record those stats against Arsenal. Decision making the final third was missing once again.

- Was Sahin ready to start that game?

He played ok but was probably the quietest of our midfield trio. I'm sure the game will do him no harm.

- Do we have an issue with Pepe Reina?

Yes but we have no adequate replacement. It's interesting that Fergusson dropped De Gea this weekend after his mistake against Fulham but we don't have an able understudy to replace Reina with. I think a lot of keepers would have tried to have saved the second one with their legs rather than trying to use their body.

- Will Suarez hit form?

Suarez can go in and out of form within minutes during a game. He tries to off load the ball as soon as he receives it, which isn't a bad thing but often ends with a stray pass. Once he has done this a couple of times you just want him to put his foot on the ball and play himself back into the game but he continues with his one touch passing. His miss in the second half was disappointing.

- Is there a difficult decision to make re Gerrard?

Gerrard and Suarez lost possession 46 times between them against Arsenal. Whichever way you look at it that is very disappointing when your two most experienced attacking players are so frivolous with the ball. For the first goal I was more disappointed with Johnson allowing Podolski to run past him without attempting to match him until the ball was passed.

- What about Sterling?

Another good performance but he is beginning to look tired, the international break has come at the right time for him. His willingness to attack the Arsenal defence and put the effort in put some of his more experienced team mates to shame.

- What about Allen?

Another fantastic performance, you only have to read the Joe Allen thread to see what the fans think of him, has a great future. Thought he was a bit more attacking in the second half. Someone had said in another thread that he has not been showing any of his attacking game in the first two games and when he starts showing his dribbling you will see how good he really is. I think we started seeing some of that.

- And Shelvey did well late on.

Very well, deserves to start next game.


- Will it click given time?

Yes, we are showing signs but we need to cut out the individual mistakes particularly at the back.