Author Topic: Systems - the Goalie  (Read 9052 times)

royhendo

  • Guest
Systems - the Goalie
« on: January 5, 2013, 09:00:58 am »
The Goalie

"No Pasaran" reads the Pepe Reina waver we see so often on The Kop. It means "They shall not pass". It's a lovely little paradox that, isn't it? At Liverpool nowadays, keepers *shall* pass.

The message is clear. Pepe is the man with the golden gloves - the complete goalkeeper. We've known it for years. But he's suffered from stuttering form of late, hasn't he? Or has he?

This article will look at the goalkeeper position, and at our understanding of the role. Because it may well be that Pepe's form hasn't been the issue here, and the debate about Xabi Valero's role might be a bit of a Red Herring. Players sometimes struggle to adapt to new systems - and goalkeepers are no exception.

My favourite ever goalkeeper is depicted in my avatar (well, it's me dressed as him really) - Hamish McAlpine. He was one of a few goalies who, during the 70s and 80s, confounded accepted wisdom on the subject of his position - Ray Clemence was another one who was perhaps the finest goalkeeper of his generation. These players didn't just stop shots. They were an 11th outfield player. Hamish scored his team's penalty kicks, and was often found in the opposition half, having scampered out to clear a through ball, and chosen to dribble rather than clear. Grobelaar was another. And when the ball was played in behind, Hamish was swift and decisive. As Michael Marra's ballad said, "Out comes Hamish and the ball's in Invergowrie Bay".

The traditional lore of the goalkeeper is, of course, peppered with tales of mavericks in the position, and with cliches as to how these men are laws unto themselves, at least at the highest level. And in the UK at least, goalkeepers tend to be described that way in the press - as players distinct from the team's setup. Formations are described as 4-4-2, or 4-3-3, or 4-5-1. 10 players, and a man apart. Interesting, then, to hear that in select continental coaching traditions, formations are described more holistically.

In our discussions on the game, our very own Zeb uncovered an article quoting Frans Hoek, a former goalkeeping coach for Ajax, Barca and Holland. He had worked at Barcelona under both Bobby Robson and Louis Van Gaal, and in describing Robson's system, he said, "He played in a 1:4:4:2". That in itself says a lot.

The key point he makes in the article is that there are different types of goalkeepers, and different types of systems, and that goalkeepers of one type don't necessarily suit systems other than the ones they learned their trade within. To illustrate this, he describes his time at Barca. Two managers, two different approaches to the game, and two significantly different systems. How were the goalkeepers affected?

Vitor Baia had been Robson's keeper. Hoek said, "At that moment Vitor was, in my opinion, one of the best goalkeepers in the world and he functioned well within Robson 1:4:4:2 system.”. Hoek cited his confirence, size, and strength as his strengths. But on Van Gaal taking over and implementing a different system, he said, "Baía changed from a big, strong, confident goalkeeper to the exact opposite. Afterwards I realized he was placed in a concept in which he did not feel the least bit confident. He now had a lot of space in front of him in which he played a role and was forced to become part of the build up. These were not his strongest assets."

Sound familiar? Pepe has never struggled with the ball at his feet. Indeed, he grew up within the Barca setup Hoek describes. However, he had grown accustomed to a different setup - one in which his team sat relatively deep, and hit on the counter. Yes, his distribution was excellent, but it was his uncanny ability to launch the quick counter with a long laser guided pass or throw to the sprinting team-mate's feet that we talked about. It wasn't a fuller playmaking role.

So how did Barca fix the problem? They bought a keeper who was used to playing in that kind of system - Ruud Hesp. As Hoek said, "This turned out to be a great choice.”

To illustrate the opposite effect, he cites the case of Edwin Van Der Sar. Hoek said, "He was the best Dutch goalie when he went from Ajax to Juventus, but was not able to perform at the same level at Juventus as he did at Ajax. [It was] (l)ogical as he did not get tested on his stronger assets, but rather on his weaker assets. Van der Sar does not belong in a team defending close to the penalty area. Is that Van der Sar’s fault? Of course not. It is a mistake of the people who hired him.”

Hoek concluded that goalkeepers can be described in terms of a spectrum between two extremes. Ideally of course, your keeper is 'complete' - an amalgam of the strengths of both - and top keepers are at that level (that's the level within Pepe's grasp, of course, given time to adapt).


The "R-Type" goalie

At one extreme, the "R-Type" - the "reaction goalie" or "line goalie".

Characteristics:
Strong, quick reactions, muscular, charismatic.

Strengths:
Shot stopping

Weaknesses:
1 v 1s (thunder out of goal aggressively, throw themselves at striker's feet); communicating with defence (leads, shouts, coaches, but blames after the event, better at coaching during set plays to standard routines); crosses; reading game and sweeping through balls; kicking (long and indiscriminate); dealing with back passes.

Examples cited:
Hoek cites Gordon Banks, Dino Zoff, Oliver Kahn and Vitor Baia. We could easily think of a few more.

[He actually cites Ray Clemence in this list - to me that demonstrates a lack of insight into Clemence on his part. One thing that might be interesting to discuss here is that maybe Clemence wasn't necessarily that profile of keeper possibly saw Shilton picked in preference to him by the national team. ]


The "A-Type" goalie

At the other extreme, the "A-Type" - the "anticipating goalie".

Characteristics:
Less aggressive, more athletic, tending to be less muscular, less charismatic.

Strengths:
Thinking and participating during team's possession, using their feet (more variety and accuracy in long passing, and play making), 1 v 1 situations (don't commit, let them make first move), patience, positioning, interceptions, sweeping up through balls, not taking unnecessary risks, reading the game, vision, coaching team to prevent situations from developing, building respect and empathy to communicate with players so they'll listen, guts.

Weaknesses:
Not as good at shot stopping,

Examples:
Hoek cites Van Der Saar and Barthez. We could easily think of a few more.


Qualities independent of 'type'

Crosses (and presumably commanding your pelanty box) are cited as a separate issue, presumably because keepers in both schools can master (or be garbage on) this aspect of their game.


The Liverpudlian tradition

Since the days of The Flying Pig, things have maybe been a little different at Liverpool than at other clubs in domestic football on this front. Shanks famously moved him forward, and the choice of keeper since was (and ought still to be) informed by that knowledge. Liverpool had flexible sides that could both sit tight to their own box and counter when needed, and make the play in their default mode. The keepers after were more complete than maybe Hoek gives credit for in that respect... albeit in the days before the back pass rule, the four second rule, and so forth, there was more scope to field with the gloves than there is now. The playmaking requirement and ability to distribute with the feet is maybe heightened in the modern day game across the board as a result.

This is in acute focus at the moment. There's talk of Liverpool cutting costs on the wage bill, and of replacing Reina with another, cheaper option. That, to me, comes with inherent risk in light of what's discussed above. Reina, well - he has everything. If we let him adapt, we could get another good few years of world class service from him as he grows and grows into the role. Rodgers seems to know the issue - his chat about choosing Worm at Swansea tells you everything you need to know on the topic. But do the scouts? Do the coaches? 

Hoek cites Michels as having faced this quandary in the early 70s, saying, "Michels did not have a good understanding of [goalkeeping techniques]. However, he did know which goalkeeper would work best within his system of play. To the surprise of many Michels opted for goalkeeper Jan Jongbloed instead of Van Beveren, Doesburg or Schrijvers who were perceived as the ‘real’ goalkeepers. However their qualities did not correlate with the system of play and Michels needed and opted for an A-type goalkeeper instead of a R-type.”

Alongside Michels? Our very own Stanfo - someone who maybe knows more about goalkeeping than Michels did, with the greatest of respect to big Rinus. Over to him.

As the dad of a keeper, I analyse every goal my lad concedes and virtually every goal I see on the tv and sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and say it was either a good goal or a situation you could have no impact on.

Coaches, managers and scouts judge keepers on the overall impact they have on a teams performance. There are lots of different types of keepers and it is how these keepers fit into a teams style that determines a best fit. Very, very rarely is a keeper a complete package, a shot stopper, someone who dominates an area, an organiser or a great distributor, but for me recently Spanish keepers come closest to ticking all the boxes and at times Cassillas, Reina and Valdes have all come pretty close to perfection for short periods.

Other people certainly in this country see the Hart's, Butland's or Ruddy's as the way forward, big shot stoppers who are limited with their feet, but pull off the spectacular headline grabber and while I appreciate their ability, I much prefer someone who can sweep behind a high defense and start the attacks through playing as an extra defender. It is very hard to teach a big shot stopper to be a footballer, believe me I have spent nearly 10 years watching kids come into academies who can shot stop, but who are hopeless with their feet and soon get found out and binned.

Rodgers has, of course dismissed the links with Butland, and some are disappointed to hear it. But they shouldn't be, if you think about it.

-

So - questions.

Q. What are the 'different types of keepers' Stanfo talks about between Hoek's two extremes?

Q. Are Hoek's two categories too simplistic?

Q. Did our own keepers over the years slot into the A-Type category as a rule? Or were they more the complete package?

Please wax lyrical. Remember Rafa and his comment on Lahm's last minute winner v Turkey in Euro 2008? How Rustu's technique didn't help, and how, had he been schooled in the Argentinian tradition, he wouldn't have grounded his knee...
« Last Edit: January 7, 2013, 02:25:37 pm by royhendo »

Offline vicgill

  • "do the simple things but do them well"
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,490
  • "Football is the simplest game in the world son,
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #1 on: January 7, 2013, 02:00:22 pm »
Hya mate,not meaning to be a smart arse but it's "No Pasaran"

Also it's penalty not plenalty
« Last Edit: January 7, 2013, 02:04:05 pm by vicgill »
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #2 on: January 7, 2013, 02:05:36 pm »
Hya mate,not meaning to be a smart arse but it's "No Pasaran"

Also it's penalty not plenalty

It's pelanty whor ah coom from, pet.

Fixed. :)

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,099
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #3 on: January 7, 2013, 02:07:25 pm »
Grobbelaar was as extreme an A type as there was, although with the mouth you've associated with the R type. He was exceptionally good at anticipation, but sometimes you got the impression the work was too mundane for his overactive brain, and he committed brainfarts out of sheer boredom.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline vicgill

  • "do the simple things but do them well"
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,490
  • "Football is the simplest game in the world son,
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #4 on: January 7, 2013, 02:08:49 pm »
It's pelanty whor ah coom from, pet.

Fixed. :)


 ;D  still does not detract from your wonderful work ;D
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

"Friend, mourn not, though he premature departs, his wisdom marches on within our hearts"
  
RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #5 on: January 7, 2013, 02:13:35 pm »
I'll get this out of the way early doors as it is a bit of a RAWK obsession. Shay Given, or Mr R-Type as I shall now call him. In less formidable parlance, would an R-type be your typical Match of the Day keeper? Looks brilliant on the highlights - even if there was a less flashy intervention he could have made earlier. The A-type's less flashy work, does not make good highlights reel. So when you are looking at other team's keepers, generally you don't watch that many full games, the keepers that are least suited to the way we play, always look the most impressive.

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #6 on: January 7, 2013, 02:17:19 pm »
As an aside, do stats generally flatter R-type keepers? The different styles of play do lead to differing quantities, and qualities of shot. There is an interesting investigation there into the effect of the type of keeper into their likely statistics. But it is clear that it would be very misleading to read too much into save percentages without careful consideration of the system that the keeper is playing in. Although it is not clear which way the bias would be.

Offline Johnny Foreigner

  • King of the Trabbies. Major Mod Thruster.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,843
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #7 on: January 7, 2013, 02:31:08 pm »
As an aside, do stats generally flatter R-type keepers? The different styles of play do lead to differing quantities, and qualities of shot. There is an interesting investigation there into the effect of the type of keeper into their likely statistics. But it is clear that it would be very misleading to read too much into save percentages without careful consideration of the system that the keeper is playing in. Although it is not clear which way the bias would be.

There was an old saying that the best goal keepers don't make many saves because they don't have to..

I think it also turns out that there isn't actually that many shots or necesseray last-minute interceptions that were to be made..

My prefered goal keepers have always been the a-type which can distribute pretty nicely, take what they're supposed to do - limit the mistakes and rather leave the spectacular saves to the show-offs..

That being said - there is always the problem of discussing goalies on a european level as the domestic leagues tends to pretty different in the challenges put forward for the goalies.. Stereotypically the continental ones have been portrayed as clowns/show offs which is pretty naturally as they have never been expected to or trained in dealing with the rory delap treatment..

It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline GibletII

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
  • Fug Off Luton
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #8 on: January 7, 2013, 02:31:23 pm »
Part of Reinas current problems relate to his hip injury sustained in 2011. He has lost the ability to carry out the momentum swivel associated with ball playing goalkeepers who involve themselves as part of the outfield play. Goalkeepers who are adept at the momentum swivel are at an advantage in this system as they are able to instantly use the whole pitch rather than just the small area they are facing.

Once a goalkeeper loses the momentum swivel he becomes what is termed as a statue kicker. These goalkeepers are often at the mercy of marauding forwards and inhospitable defencers.

I fear that Pepe has become a statue kicker compounded by his vibrofinger syndrome.

Offline sattapaartridge

  • The new 'pete price' of RAWK.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,535
  • @sattapaal
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #9 on: January 7, 2013, 02:43:30 pm »
Worth typing out all of the Liverpool keepers I've known:

Bruce Grobbelaar
Mike Hooper
Michael Stensgaard
David James
Brad Friedel
Chris Kirkland
Sander Westeweld
Jerzy Dudek
Scott Carson
Daniel Padelli
Pepe Reina
Cavalieri
Doni
Brad Jones
Peter Gulacsi

From that list, you already see that most of our keepers have been football playing keepers, they like to get involved, and some very flamboyant keeping styles. Certainly, Grobbelaar, James, Westerweld, Dudek, Reina all had passes in a game they played for us.

However, not since Grobbelaar, have we seen a keeper so much involved with retaining possession since we have had today with Pepe. We have always wanted to retain possession and use the entire pitch to do that. So we're very much a type A goalkeeper type team.

But are the classifications that simplistic? Of course. David James was a great all-round keeper, he could play on the deck, he was brilliant at shot stopping, I think he had a bit of both types. At a time, he was good at collecting the ball in crowded area's but the blunders started to occur, and his confidence when and he was then sold. Pepe, has never really been a "collector/holder" of a crossing ball. He elected to punch at any occasion. Also, anticipating/sweeping, sometime you think Pepe is far too deep (and lets the ball go across him), on stays his line (could be confidence?), and james used to go on walk abouts high up the pitch, as did Grobbelaar.

"Play to your strengths" is very important at keeper level, as if you're not strong at one attribute, trying to do something youre not good at, usually costs you a goal.
did you know that 10 x 2 and 11 x 2 have the same answer?

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #10 on: January 7, 2013, 03:32:21 pm »
It’s an interesting spin on keepers but it’s a wee bit too generic and simplistic. Now maybe you can ask you keeper to play either way and maybe some keepers do fall into these categories but I’d suggest most wouldn’t.

Clem was consistently the most elegant keeper I’ve ever seen. His concentration was immense. As equally capable of pulling off a save in the 93rd minute having done nothing all match, as he was in the first. A reaction keeper, then, but those same reactions got him off his line and sweeping behind the back four. The skill was he could read the game. Added to that he was as brave as a lion, a key component for me of any keeper.

Grobelaar also breaks the rules being probably the most charismatic of keepers , incredibly agile, a brilliant shot stopper and never on his line, even when he should have been.

Tommy was a sweeper keeper but whether agile was one of his prime attributes I’m not so sure….

Westerveld was primarily a good shot stopper but with good feet, his goal kicks could rival Pepe’s for length and accuracy.

I was told that one of the reasons we signed David James, a giant but freakishly agile and a tremendous shot stopper - was because at Watford his handling of crosses was impeccable. What happened with that when he arrived with us ……keeping more so than any other position, even striker is about confidence -  with it comes a weight that knowing any mistake is costly. That’s why so many keepers are never the same after even one high profile mistake because their confidence is shredded. Great keepers are able to put their mistakes to one side and carry on their confidence unaffected.

Its one role where the sports psychologists should really earn their corn.

Unfortunately Pepe’s form has not just hit the skids since the change of style. He was, for him at least, not so great for a period last season. For him I think it is more about form than style. He has clearly had issues with where the club needs to be as opposed to where it is. With different managers and coaches the situation has been made worse. He has suffered from being one of the few genuine world class talents in the side.

For me, on form and concentrating he’s the best there is but his full confidence has not been there for a while now. His performance vs pens exemplifies his lack of authority currently. There was a time when you thought he’d save everyone. Now you don’t think he will save any. I think with Pepe it is more down to motivation than style.

Keepers in general are now taller, more athletic even the big units like Hart have an unbelievable agility but big guys often aren’t very coordinated with their feet. Some like Seaman appear to have traded agility for strength. They use that strength to intimidate, to exude authority in the box. Look at De Gea as a polar opposite.

There have always been good shot stoppers but the other aspects of the game have always been more important – commanding your area, communication, taking crosses, knowing where to be and when, getting your angles right – much of which makes keeping look easy when done right.

The issue then primarily boils down to those who can use their feet and those who can’t. It is more pronounced now when space is at a premium and with the back pass rule. Playing Rodgers systems makes it even more important but I’m not sure it is as simple as the characterisations imply.
« Last Edit: January 7, 2013, 04:32:44 pm by Vulmea »
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #11 on: January 7, 2013, 03:57:10 pm »
Hoek was definitely being overly simplistic to make his points and presenting an easy dichotomy between two extremes to hang those points upon. But it is useful in some ways to boil it down to that level as it gets you thinking about which things you want to value more than others in a keeper in any particular team - perfection, after all, is rare. And it also introduces the idea that if you put a perfectly fine keeper, who is accustomed to being behind a particular form of defence, behind a defence who play a different way he may well struggle as different skillsets are tested. As Stanfo mentioned, it's about the overall impact upon the team and having the keeper who, on balance, provides the greatest positive benefits. A goalkeeper who is quick to spot danger and come out of his area to clear it up is not much use to a team who camp on their 18 yard line for 90 minutes and isn't going to be highly valued for being able to do that if he rarely or never will be called upon to do that after all.

One thing which Hoek doesn't touch upon there is that he does, apparantly, have a minimum height requirement too (1.85m, 6'1 in old money, for him) so even within the simple framework you're not going to see him arguing the case for a midget tending goal because he's a great footballer.
« Last Edit: January 7, 2013, 04:15:45 pm by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline horne

  • y
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,526
  • through a storm
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #12 on: January 7, 2013, 04:52:25 pm »
as well as being technically good....i think its important that your keeper has a big personality,confident .
you can see the negativity ripple through the whole team when a keeper is weak,the trust goes.
Many years ago when the first million pound player came along in trevor francis i think , its always amazed me why clubs were breaking the bank for attackers,and goalies were going for peanuts.For me,the keeper is up there with being the most important player in your team...get that position wrong.....yer winning nothing
success = the absence of the fear of failure

Offline Fuzion6

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,607
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #13 on: January 7, 2013, 04:58:56 pm »
On David James - I think it is clear that it was all mental with him. A good friend of mine played for Villa (never got beyond the reserve team) and he said that in training David James was ridiculously good - he was at an incredible level. I guess in the pressure situations something just didn't click with him.

Offline Nessy76

  • Shits alone and doesn't condone public self-molestation. Literally Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,994
  • We All Live In A Red And White Klopp
    • Andrew Ness Photographer
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #14 on: January 7, 2013, 05:17:46 pm »

I was told that one of the reasons we signed David James, a giant but freakishly agile and a tremendous shot stopper - was because at Watford his handling of crosses was impeccable. What happened with that when he arrived with us ……keeping more so than any other position, even striker is about confidence -  with it comes a weight that knowing any mistake is costly. That’s why so many keepers are never the same after even one high profile mistake because their confidence is shredded. Great keepers are able to put their mistakes to one side and carry on their confidence unaffected.

Its one role where the sports psychologists should really earn their corn.


Not how I remember it. When we signed James he was known as a fantastic shot stopper, but his ability from crosses was something he was going to need to develop. In practice it was rarely a problem, but there were a few high-profile errors over a short period that really brought it to everyone's attention. When he was interviewed shortly after it (the big theory was that it was down to his habit of playing computer games - the fact he was also a heavy smoker wasn't public knowledge at the time) his response was simple "We haven't been working on them in training"

For me, this was confirmation that Joe Corrigan was a total waste of space. Here was a keeper who was already known at the time as being weak on crosses, with a dedicated coach to work with, who had decided not to work on crosses with him.

Now I'm prepared to accept that James may have been stretching the truth there, to cover up for the damage his smoking habit was doing to his concentration levels (he has since implied as much himself) but given Corrigan's awful record with other keepers at the club, I think the essence of this is probably true.

(The fact we had no-one at the club at the time capable of putting an accurate cross into the box has also been suggested, but for training purposes, it's fair to assume Jamie Redknapp could have been dragged into the sort of wide position he rarely took up in actual play.)

This bit of perplexing information has stayed with me for all these years, and I actually celebrated when Corrigan finally got the push. Valero didn't just work with the keepers, he famously worked with Torres on identifying the weaknesses and habits of every rival keeper in the league, which Torres claimed accounted for a good deal of his success.

Achterberg's appointment seemed to be something of an accident. Brought in to work with reserve players, he was promoted apparently by default when Valero left and has been incumbent since. He's one of the few first team coaching staff that Rodgers didn't seem to want to replace, though, so there must be something he's doing right.

Fascinating OP. For me, Reina is starting to look more like the assured figure of old, his distribution is back to the level it should be at, and his form has been consistent for a little while. Where we've leaked goals recently has seemed to be from tactical errors by the whole team rather than the keeper, I can't remember ever seeing us make so many of those, but that's another topic entirely.
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA

Offline Hij

  • Literally Custom-titlely neglected for literally over a decade, Ruud.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,025
  • Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97.
    • Grime Forum
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #15 on: January 7, 2013, 05:19:57 pm »
Posting to make sure I read this later. Thanks a lot for this Roy, improving my football knowledge is a thousand times better than discussing handballs!
Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97. Justice for the Survivors.

Istanbul 2005. Athens 2007. Basel 2016. Kiev 2018. Madrid 2019. Paris 2022.

Offline Lusty

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,304
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #16 on: January 7, 2013, 08:18:05 pm »
Enjoyed that.  Remember reading an article (possibly) on here about Ray Clemence a while ago that was really interesting.  There was a quote from him, can't remember exactly, something like 'every time you see a keeper dive, it means they have made a mistake'.  And I always think about that every time I see an R type or, as SP puts it, the match of the day keeper.

I think that might be why there's such a disconnect between the opinion of Shay Given on here compared to the mainstream.  Given might be really good at what he does, and it looks good on a highlights package, but we're used to keepers playing a different game.

On Reina though; surely the high defensive line is not anything new?  We used to play that way under Rafa, and Pepe was excellent.  He was a classic sweeper keeper at his peak and, if anything, I think it was Hodgson's attempts to turn him into an R type that screwed him up.

Online goalrushatgoodison

  • crapinbed
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,317
  • Still waiting for the great leap forward.
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #17 on: January 7, 2013, 08:57:39 pm »
Interesting OP, especially the point that Van De Saar is used to make.

Fans of my generation remember when two keepers who would fall into the A & R brackets vied for the England keepers jersey.

Ray Clemence was the epitome of the goalie come sweeper who invariably played as an extra defender behind a high line. In addition he thrived on taking the pressure off his defensive colleagues by competing for crosses. In this regard Hoek was just wrong. Peter Shilton was exactly the opposite of Clemence. He was a line keeper who rarely ventured outside his own six yard box but was lauded for his undoubted shot stopping abilities.

The point about certain types of keeper suiting certain styles of play is not something i had thought about back then. I used to just compare the two on their merits as a keeper. it says a lot about how English managers looked at the game, back in the day, that Ron Greenwood, a hugely respected but old school coach, couldn't decide which keeper was best for his style of play. Bobby Robson appears to have been much more forward thinking in this regard, choosing Shilton to play behind a deep lying defence for practically the whole of his tenure.



« Last Edit: January 7, 2013, 09:00:35 pm by goalrushatgoodison »
Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #18 on: January 8, 2013, 06:15:09 am »
Need to be enlightened. How is it that keepers who are one one spectrum, cannot be good at another spectrum ? And how does that relate to Pepe's form in those recent months ?

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #19 on: January 8, 2013, 07:36:39 am »
The idea, Alvin, is that you participate in a discussion about it, and tell us your thoughts on the subject. The o.p. provides a few leading questions. So wire in.

Offline Johnny Foreigner

  • King of the Trabbies. Major Mod Thruster.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,843
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #20 on: January 8, 2013, 08:23:45 am »
I think Reina has been covered very well in some very good posts above, but that leads me on to Jones.

He is most definetely not high on the "A"-scale and I'm not yet too convinced on the "R"-scale either.. Added on top of his his aerial work is not outstanding either.

I maybe too harsh on him, but I don't rate him that highly on the highest competitive arena - but that leads to the next question - the reserve goalie : should he always be "good enough to cover on the odd game" or would a situation of aiming for two strong goalies inevitably leads to a loss of confidence/power fight ?
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,229
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #21 on: January 8, 2013, 09:40:08 am »
A very interesting discussion, are there any other articles in which keepers are categorised?

Would Peter Schmeichel fall in to category 'FA' for fully accomplished? He enjoyed relative success at Bronby then joined MU where he excelled beyond what anyone could predict. Frustratingly I don't recall MU having a specialist goalkeeping team but his game developed to an extent probably unrivalled since. He is of course pretty unique.

And what about Neville Southall - one of the most unorthodox but finest keepers you'll see. He's probably a classic 'R Type' with a bit more.

Certainly goalkeeping the the most complex and risky position on the pitch in which confidence has an impact on everyone of them sometime or other during their careers.

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,104
  • JFT 97
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #22 on: January 8, 2013, 11:55:03 am »
It's strange that whilst people will talk about a Striker like Torres or Carroll not getting the service or the team not playing in a way that suits them very little is made of how a change of style can affect a Keeper. Under Rafa we defended high up the pitch pressed  teams all over the pitch and Reina came into his own with his terrific concentration and ability to play the sweeper keeper role.  It was a regular sight to see Pepe reading the play and making interceptions 20-25 yards from goal.

Then for me two things happened Carra's lack of pace meant we defended deeper and then Hodgson arrived a man who wanted his defenders to defend their own six yard box. Instead of accentuating Pepe's positives his weak areas were exposed he isn't the biggest and isnt comfortable dealing with crosses or dealing with shots when he hasn't had the chance to narrow the angles first.

Hoidgson wanted a Schwarzer style keeper and instead got Pepe and tried to change his game with Mike Kelly the fella who destroyed David James and Brad Friedel at Liverpool under Souness.

For me Reina is the right keeper for Liverpool we just need to defend a bit higher up the pitch and get him playing on the front foot instead of being stuck on his line.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #23 on: January 8, 2013, 01:40:26 pm »
I think that's about where I am with it Al. It's a process of adjustment, but that's what he's used to, and the more accustomed we get to the system, the more able we'll be to do that.

It harks back to the Cruyff story about the Barca coaches talking him out of starting with an 11th outfield player in goal, to some extent, doesn't it?

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,104
  • JFT 97
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #24 on: January 8, 2013, 02:00:16 pm »
I think that's about where I am with it Al. It's a process of adjustment, but that's what he's used to, and the more accustomed we get to the system, the more able we'll be to do that.

It harks back to the Cruyff story about the Barca coaches talking him out of starting with an 11th outfield player in goal, to some extent, doesn't it?

The biggest difference for me between Reina's early days and now is the strength of the comparative midfield's. We used to be able to shut down a game  with the midfield virtually at will. Now we look a good side when we are playing at full throttle, pressing and looking to get at teams but look a poor side when we come off the accelerator. We look to control the game with our defence, keeper and Allen when he plays instead of squeezing teams all over the pitch.

Reina for me looks a dominant keeper when he plays as a sweeper keeper but looks unsure and a little small when pinned back onto his line. As you say hopefully when the team adjusts to the managers methods we will see more of the former and less of the latter.  Something I have noticed is Pepe kicking it more but instead of hitting high hanging  kicks it is more of the low skimming variety that gives our attacking players a chance to get infront of their markers instead of being outjumped.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline Adamski LFC

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
  • Polymath, ... I think not
    • Dash Equestrian
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #25 on: January 8, 2013, 02:38:50 pm »
I think Reina's A-Type keeping is clear for all to see when the dividing lines are drawn so succinctly, my concerns come with Skrtel and Allen/Lucas fouling close to the box as seems to be the norm, putting pressure on Reina unecessarily.  Until we address silly fouls AND playing a high line we are not playing to Reina's strengths.  A low lying defence needs a low lying midfield otherwise the gaps are likely to be punished.  With Reina I wonder if the appointment of Steve Peters, as well as seeing Downing improve suspiciously in sync, would have a good impact.

Is his scything kicking down to his inability to twist his torso to fling such balls any more?

Brendan said in his last round table with fan sites that Steve Peters is there for players to go and see as and when they will, and I remember the article I read on Craig Bellamy who used him.  He has had transformative impacts in the past and imbues confidence in Sports People by reducing pressure matches to 'just another 11 guys trying to score past me' or 'here I go with another frame of snooker'.  His approach takes emotion out of the game so that learned skills come to the fore.  Pepe has 'A' skills in good measure and if we can trust him to deploy those effectively and NOT defend deep, hence not causing free kicks close to the box, we will reap rewards.

Agger is relatively swift but his reading of the game is impeccable meaning he rarely needs flat out speed to be able to sort things, Skrtel seems to have less tactical nous and hence looks more short of pace.  Playing a high line needs either raw speed or great game intelligence, or both, and I think unfortunately he has neither.

Our forthcoming game against the Manchester United, who have very swift attacks, will surely test and punish any deep lying defence and Pepe will need to be back at his best against Van Persie, Nani etc.
Hoping not to embarrass oneself should not be the ultimate aim when posting

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #26 on: January 9, 2013, 06:55:58 am »
The idea, Alvin, is that you participate in a discussion about it, and tell us your thoughts on the subject. The o.p. provides a few leading questions. So wire in.

Read the thread again, and this i think comes closest to my own opinion.

Hoek was definitely being overly simplistic to make his points and presenting an easy dichotomy between two extremes to hang those points upon. But it is useful in some ways to boil it down to that level as it gets you thinking about which things you want to value more than others in a keeper in any particular team - perfection, after all, is rare. And it also introduces the idea that if you put a perfectly fine keeper, who is accustomed to being behind a particular form of defence, behind a defence who play a different way he may well struggle as different skillsets are tested. As Stanfo mentioned, it's about the overall impact upon the team and having the keeper who, on balance, provides the greatest positive benefits. A goalkeeper who is quick to spot danger and come out of his area to clear it up is not much use to a team who camp on their 18 yard line for 90 minutes and isn't going to be highly valued for being able to do that if he rarely or never will be called upon to do that after all.



I'm not as well versed than many of you here, but it sounded very theoretical to me, over-generalization for the purpose of putting it into concepts. Then again, it isn't complicated to begin with. A lot like the kind of defenders you need to play the kind of game you want. Fact is, it applies to all the positions. The balance of the team is down to the characteristics of the players you put on the pitch.

The interesting thing would be to examine if training varies across countries. I am personally more familiar with the Spanish ones recently, and of course some of the English ones. We can then see the compatibility of the keepers' characteristics with the kind of game specific to the country playing culture.

Stanfo has mentioned several times regarding Pepe's form, linking it to the training and the coach, thus Roy, i am asking the more knowledgable lot of you if more can be shed from experts' opinions (such as from the links you provided) on how it affected Pepe's form. Was it that the coach focused on other attributes or other details ?

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #27 on: January 9, 2013, 08:16:39 am »
So what you're saying is that you can't be arsed researching? ;D

The idea of the series is to provoke exactly that kind of thinking about all positions, units of the team, and collective movement / formation / balance / patterns of play.

The goalie is just one aspect, but maybe a logical place to start. We maybe need to think of our goalie as an outfield playmaker as much as we do our DM (that is, maybe even more than our centre halves). Historically Liverpool fans have learned to think of their centre halves in a different way to most clubs, so it's not that outlandish a thought. It ought to rule out the likes of Butland and long term you'd hope we grow our own to spec.

It's not just about Reina. You say the balance of the team is down to the players that you put on the pitch - that's the fundamental shift now I think - the system will increasingly dictate the players chosen. People are already whining about losing Sahin - "we didn't use him properly", they say. But that's something that'll happen again and again, and like Villa and Henry at Barca, sometimes good players will join us and take a while to adjust, because it's system-driven.

That's acutely true of the keeper I think. The theory, while intrinsically limited, is valid.

Offline Johnny Foreigner

  • King of the Trabbies. Major Mod Thruster.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,843
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #28 on: January 9, 2013, 08:33:09 am »

The goalie is just one aspect, but maybe a logical place to start. We maybe need to think of our goalie as an outfield playmaker as much as we do our DM (that is, maybe even more than our centre halves). Historically Liverpool fans have learned to think of their centre halves in a different way to most clubs, so it's not that outlandish a thought. It ought to rule out the likes of Butland and long term you'd hope we grow our own to spec.


There was a time during what I consider to be Reinas prime that I trusted him more with the ball than a fair few of our outfield players...

Leads me on to think at what level Reina actually could do a job as an outfield player; might be totally sci-fi but not sure if I have seen any keepers that have been so composed/accurate with both feets ever..
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #29 on: January 9, 2013, 11:22:37 am »
So what you're saying is that you can't be arsed researching? ;D

The idea of the series is to provoke exactly that kind of thinking about all positions, units of the team, and collective movement / formation / balance / patterns of play.

The goalie is just one aspect, but maybe a logical place to start. We maybe need to think of our goalie as an outfield playmaker as much as we do our DM (that is, maybe even more than our centre halves). Historically Liverpool fans have learned to think of their centre halves in a different way to most clubs, so it's not that outlandish a thought. It ought to rule out the likes of Butland and long term you'd hope we grow our own to spec.

It's not just about Reina. You say the balance of the team is down to the players that you put on the pitch - that's the fundamental shift now I think - the system will increasingly dictate the players chosen. People are already whining about losing Sahin - "we didn't use him properly", they say. But that's something that'll happen again and again, and like Villa and Henry at Barca, sometimes good players will join us and take a while to adjust, because it's system-driven.

That's acutely true of the keeper I think. The theory, while intrinsically limited, is valid.

Not sure if researching is my biggest forte, but certainly right up your alley Roy, hence the very informational post. I'm certain you have read more about football than i've any books in my entire existence.

I don't think the theory was invalid, i merely think its convenient, without discrediting the experts. Its no coincidence the kind of players are usually stereotypical of the geographical regions they are born/brought up.

I was observing Fulton during last night's game, and he struck me as being very capable with both feet. Quite in sync with our currently ideology.

Stanfo has been a great source of knowledge regarding the academy and especially on the subject of goalkeeping, and he'd definitely be able to say with more authority on this issue regarding our current goalkeeping situation.

If we concur however, that excellent post by Vulmea on tactical flexibility, there would be games we would play deep, and games which we press on. Then we look at this particular country, big burly forwards or the Stokes, i'd personally opt for somewhere between the types, but skewing towards R-type.

Offline Stanfo

  • Sleeping with the Enemy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,743
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #30 on: January 9, 2013, 04:33:51 pm »
Ryan Fulton was the U11 keeper when my lad first signed and was first coached under Billy Stewart and Tim Dittmer (now Man City academy coach) who put great emphasis on keepers who could play with their feet. It would surprise many just how much time was spent doing various footwork drills and how much benefit it was to lads who could play a bit of football. Ryan was good with his feet, had a great attitude but was also a very rounded young keeper.

When those two coaches were replaced, first Stewart and then Dittmer the same philosophy remained throughout the goalkeeping area of the academy. When Valero was given responsibility for all of the club, including the academy, he worked with Mark Morris and John Achterberg to carry this on further. I always come across as a great supporter of Valero because he took the trouble to meet all the keepers and their parents as a group and explain the methodology he was putting in place.

This methodology seemed to be an attempt to produce keepers who could play as close to Pepe in style as is possible with different skill sets. Great emphasis was put on keepers working with the outfield players in sessions, not just shot stopping as is the norm within most academies. Goalkeeper coaches didn't just do keeper sessions but became actively involved in outfield sessions as well, which to my mind is an excellent way to coach keepers in real world situations. My own lad still gets complimented on the things he learnt under these coaches, despite having been at Blackburn for nearly 3 years. Things like the Reina side volley, quick distribution and good feet have all seen him stand out against lads who have not had this grounding, hence the positive way I look back on this period of training.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: Systems - the Goalie
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 11:19:44 am »
Ta for that Stanfo. It was your posts that prompted the thread mate.

How's he getting on at Blackburn?