Topic: Mamadou Sakho asked for ban, say UEFA - (Update - Cleared)

[Alan_X]

If this was cut and dried, it would have been done by now. You wouldn't have a ban run out with no resolution. That just shows that UEFA doesn't know what to do.

There is very little doubt they screwed up somewhere and now are grasping at straws....

None of that follows. It's your spin on the situation, whereas the likelihood is that there are legal discussions between UEFA and Sakho's legal team. This is a potentially complex issue that could set precedents for anti-doping policies within UEFA's area of influence and potentially for anti-doping worldwide. The list is WADA's not UEFA's so I have no doubt that WADA will be involved in the discussions.

You may not be interested in the chemistry but it's a fundamental issue for anti-doping bodies who are constantly trying to deal with new doping methods and ways to circumvent the rules. If this allows a loophole then the dopers (and they are out there) will use it to their advantage.

[Eeyore]

Completely agree with this.

I’m struggling to understand how there is any ambiguity around whether Higenamine is a beta-2 receptor agonist. There are in vitro beta-2 assays that can be utilised to understand the pharmacologically activity of Higenamine. Whether it is a beta-2 agonist or not should be relatively easy to define. I can’t see this being the reason why this is any ambiguity around it usage.

Whether Higenamine has performance enhancing properties is probably ill-defined through a lack of evidence. And this is where some of the ambiguity may be coming from.

My understanding is the debate is about the delivery method and whether Higenamine in tablet form acts as a beta-2 agonist in humans. There are plenty of drugs that work at molecular level but don't have a viable delivery method in humans. A good example are drugs that work at a molecular level for IPAH but simply don't have a viable delivery method at the moment.

WADA have cautioned against use of Higenamine and placed it on the advisory list. Whilst they can show in theory that Higenamine could possibly aid performance, without a viable delivery method and without proof that it is performance enhancing in humans they would open themselves to huge legal problems.

The other problem is that Higenamine is a naturally occurring product used in Asian cookery so they would presumably have to set a limit for the amount of Higenamine that is allowed in a sample.

[An Ex-Pessimistic Monkey Spanker]

None of that follows. It's your spin on the situation, whereas the likelihood is that there are legal discussions between UEFA and Sakho's legal team.

I'm sure there are. Because UEFA screwed up. If they had their ducks in a row, there wouldn't be any need for discussions or negotiation or whatever wrangling is taking place.

As for it being "spin", all I can say is I'm well educated in organizational behavior as well as behavioral science in general.

UEFA is not acting at all as an organization with the courage of its conviction. They're acting quite like an organization in a pickle and trying to deal with their quandary.

The Sharapova case was different totally. She admitted she took the substance, just didn't know it was banned even though it was on the list. She was provisionally banned (wasn't allowed to expire) and then very expectedly given a ban. 

Here Sakho was suspended then now he's not but he effectively still is under sanction because the case hasn't been resolved yet, which means UEFA isn't able to resolve it because they've messed something up. So they're hedging by allowing the ban to expire but not clearing him.

[jooneyisdagod]

My understanding is the debate is about the delivery method and whether Higenamine in tablet form acts as a beta-2 agonist in humans. There are plenty of drugs that work at molecular level but don't have a viable delivery method in humans. A good example are drugs that work at a molecular level for IPAH but simply don't have a viable delivery method at the moment.

WADA have cautioned against use of Higenamine and placed it on the advisory list. Whilst they can show in theory that Higenamine could possibly aid performance, without a viable delivery method and without proof that it is performance enhancing in humans they would open themselves to huge legal problems.

The other problem is that Higenamine is a naturally occurring product used in Asian cookery so they would presumably have to set a limit for the amount of Higenamine that is allowed in a sample.

They're all good points Al. As I said earlier, I don't know much about this molecule, but a cursory search didn't suggest that there was any data available for studies at human beta-2 adrenergic receptors, which could mean that this molecule has never been tested at human beta 2 receptors. If that is the case, then Sakho's legal team may have a point in saying that this molecule couldn't be considered as a human beta 2 agonist in the current absence of data.

[Jookie]

My understanding is the debate is about the delivery method and whether Higenamine in tablet form acts as a beta-2 agonist in humans. There are plenty of drugs that work at molecular level but don't have a viable delivery method in humans. A good example are drugs that work at a molecular level for IPAH but simply don't have a viable delivery method at the moment.

WADA have cautioned against use of Higenamine and placed it on the advisory list. Whilst they can show in theory that Higenamine could possibly aid performance, without a viable delivery method and without proof that it is performance enhancing in humans they would open themselves to huge legal problems.

The other problem is that Higenamine is a naturally occurring product used in Asian cookery so they would presumably have to set a limit for the amount of Higenamine that is allowed in a sample.

Thanks for the explanation and further information. The main premise seems to be that there is a lack of data and evidence to link Higenamine to displaying performance enhancing properties.

If Higenamine is the substance in his case then I'd assume this lack of clinical evidence is the basis of Sakho's argument against a ban. Given WADA have cautioned against the use of the substance and placed it on it's advisory list you've got to think Sakho has been naive in the extreme to get himself in this situation. And I'm being kind calling him naive.

[rocco]

Are we there yet ?

[24/7]

As for it being "spin", all I can say is I'm well educated in organizational behavior as well as behavioral science in general.

Errrr...........you couldn't have learned much cos you've shown little else than a tedious superiority complex on this site, in every thread you've posted in, and attempted to paint yourself as an expert on. well, everything. I have no doubt that you are educated......but you clearly are not capable of implementing effectively whatever learning you claim to have derived from previously said disciplines. Try another website. Or planet.

[rakey_lfc]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/20/liverpools-mamadou-sakho-to-learn-of-possible-drugs-ban-within-three-weeks

[Ocean Red]

This is getting ridiculous, we have to wait roughly another three weeks to find out about a possible ban for sakho.

[TobyLFC]

Incompetence at its peak

[Alan_X]

Incompetence at its peak

That's a bit harsh - Sakho took something he shouldn't have but it was probably an error, not incompetence.

[Chakan]

That's a bit harsh - Sakho took something he shouldn't have but it was probably an error, not incompetence.

I thought the latest was he took something that wasn't on the list, so it wasn't banned?

[PhilV]

This is crazy, why does it take this long to sort this out? Are the UEFA chaps all busy watching the Euros?

[RayPhilAlan]

I thought the latest was he took something that wasn't on the list, so it wasn't banned?

The rest of the thread is educational on this, particularly the contributions from Alan and Al. My summary is that what he took was covered on the list, but his legal team's argument is that it shouldn't be.

I imagine the threat of being sued means UEFA are very keen to take all the time needed to come to the right decision.

[kcbworth]

This is crazy, why does it take this long to sort this out? Are the UEFA chaps all busy watching the Euros?

Most likely

[WanderingRed]

From what I can gather Sakho questioned whether the substance should have been on the banned list and UEFA must have agreed to some extent as they launched their own investigation into the substance which is ongoing.

The ban wasn't extended as UEFA decided to start this investigation into the substance. The reason why it is taking so long to close the case if they want the findings of their investigation.

I'd imagine if they find that it should be banned then Sakho would be suspended again.

[Red Beret]

This is crazy, why does it take this long to sort this out? Are the UEFA chaps all busy watching the Euros?

Well they're probably all getting drunk on champagne in the director's boxes...

I'd imagine if they find that it should be banned then Sakho would be suspended again.

Perhaps.  The length of the investigation suggests, to me at least, that even if they decide the substance is correctly banned there was enough ambiguity at the time that they decide not to extend Sakho's punishment - but that in future with the situation clarified a player would be punished accordingly.

On the other hand, banned is banned.  If he's knowingly taken something that was on the banned list they might still decide to make an example of him.  UEFA is so incompetent it's hard to judge how the situation will pan out.

[TepidT2O]

Oh I'm not sure about that..

Ambiguity isn't ever considered to be their fault.

[Halibut-Thumb]

Any updates on when the next proceedings will take place? If he gets a suspension will it be served from the time he began the voluntary suspension? In that case hopefully he only gets 6 months and misses only a few months of the start of the season..

[CraigDS]

Any updates on when the next proceedings will take place? If he gets a suspension will it be served from the time he began the voluntary suspension? In that case hopefully he only gets 6 months and misses only a few months of the start of the season..

Start of July at some point apparently. And it's likely it would be back dated to the date he started the initial ban, but who knows with UEFA.

[Chakan]

http://www.empireofthekop.com/2016/07/01/sakho-is-brilliant-mama-opens-school-for-people-with-disabilities-in-senegal/?utm_content=buffer66a23&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Mamadou Sakho could be forgiven for feeling sorry for himself this summer.

Our centre-back was provisionally banned after taking a fat burner last season, missing the culmination of our campaign (including a Europa League Final…) and Euro 2016 with France as a result.

Instead of holidaying in exotic destinations like his counterparts do, and separating himself from the outside world, Sakho’s engaged himself in countless charity work instead.

SEE MORE:
Mamadou Sakho UEFA ban update; hearing date named

Today, he unveiled the opening of his school for children with disabilities in Senegal – the country where his parents are from.

Since arriving at Liverpool, he’s taken part in countless community run activities, and does so with a smile on his face. He’s a tremendous ambassador for our club and the game; and we truly hope his lawyers can successfully argue the substance he ingested shouldn’t have been on the banned list in the first place.

UEFA will let Sakho know his fate soon.

[KiNki]

well, whenever they are ready, no rush like.

[Chakan]

well, whenever they are ready, no rush like.

Taking the piss now really.

[pyroparty]

This is an utter fucking disgrace. Pre season starts tomorrow, the season next month and we still dont know if we'll need another CB or not! And more importantly the player himself hasn't got a clue whats going on!

[HighSix]

Can he start pre season as not suspended?

Although guess none of this time now will be included in any future ban apart from the month Uefa granted him.

[OneTouchFooty]

A fucking joke how blasé UEFA are being about a young lad's career. Leaving him in limbo like this, the club should press hard on the issue.

It's been really heart-warming stuff seeing him help out those less fortunate though, top bloke.

[RainbowFlick]

Sakho <3

[Ratboy3G]

Has Sakho returned to pre-season training? He is still posting pictures of his charity work and I don't think I've seen any pictures of him in training.

[xbugawugax]

Has Sakho returned to pre-season training? He is still posting pictures of his charity work and I don't think I've seen any pictures of him in training.

he already has. Pictures has been posted on his social media. My guess is there wont be any official photos of him till the issue with uefa is sorted out.

No reason for Uefa bigwigs to delay their coke and orgy party in france for such a trivial matter.

[Ratboy3G]

he already has. Pictures has been posted on his social media. My guess is there wont be any official photos of him till the issue with uefa is sorted out.

No reason for Uefa bigwigs to delay their coke and orgy party in france for such a trivial matter.

I haven't seen any on his Instagram page, I'm not on twitter so I have not seen if he has posted any on there, can't see any on Facebook either. A bit odd but as you say the club may have taken certain measures to keep him out of the pictures. 

(Just seen he has posted a pic inside the changing room at Melwood)

[Lolo]

If (Fowler forbid) he received a ban, would this be backdated to the start of/to include the original 1 month ban? 

[TepidT2O]

If (Fowler forbid) he received a ban, would this be backdated to the start of/to include the original 1 month ban? 

It would be.


This will be why he hasn't returned to training..

[suede lady]

I'm quite sure Sakho was includede in the pictures from pre season training. He is there.

I am not sure how they will backdate it. If he is guilty they are likely to include the one month ban, but it is far from sure that the summer will be included. It should be, seeing as he was almost certain to be included in the French squad.

[DonkeyWan]

I don't care what anyone says, I believe this has been handled badly by UEFA.

[CraigDS]

I don't care what anyone says, I believe this has been handled badly by UEFA.

That's just a given really, it is UEFA after all.

[HighSix]

Easy to blame Uefa but not sure they have done much wrong. Whatever the result tomorrow seems its a complicated issue & will be sorted only a few months since the positive test. Its very unfortunate he was missed a final for us & a home Euros but he took the risk going against the very clear school like guidelines provided by the governing body.

[CraigDS]

Easy to blame Uefa but not sure they have done much wrong. Whatever the result tomorrow seems its a complicated issue & will be sorted only a few months since the positive test. Its very unfortunate he was missed a final for us & a home Euros but he took the risk going against the very clear school like guidelines provided by the governing body.

I think it's hard to say either way (that Sakho went against those guidelines, or that UEFA have done anything wrong) at the moment given we know practically nothing.

[10 years on]

He's going to get hit for a year isn't he, and in cases like these do the players always not use the clubs lawyer's?

[CraigDS]

He's going to get hit for a year isn't he, and in cases like these do the players always not use the clubs lawyer's?

No the issue is between the player and UEFA, so they'll use their own. Although they will likely be in contact with the clubs over certain issues.

Plus I doubt the club's lawyers specialise in dealing with such issues, so better getting a specialist on board.

[clinical]

He'll get a ban but shouldn't be bad. 6 months i reckon. Would have probably been a year. But he's missed a lot of games already because of it which should be taken into account.