Author Topic: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?  (Read 14228 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« on: February 14, 2005, 10:22:12 am »
First of all: the title does not mean I am equating Sami Hyypia in any way to a horse, or worse still, a donkey. I am still a big fan of the colossal Finn, and Liverpool definitely sold the right centre-back (Henchoz) this winter. But there can be no escaping the fact that Sami is getting a fair amount of criticism this season, with fans calling for him to be ditched.

The most alarming thing I've read from some quarters is that Sami has lost his pace. Well, I can't recall him having any to start with. Players just don't suddenly lose their pace (it's an easy criticism to label at older players), and certainly not by the age of just 30, without the interference of serious injuries. Our ex-captain has played 300 games in five-and-a-half seasons; so no debilitating injuries there. That is an amazing record. He's been as consistent on the pitch as he has been consistent in simply being on the pitch. You don't know what you'll miss until something has gone; I still believe that's the case with Sami. We've never had to be without him, so it's easy to think the grass would be greener.

With regards his consistency, it's worth noting that he has had a mere handful of bad games this season. He has made a couple of mistakes, and been exposed by pace and power on a couple of occasions. Given his high standards, this may seem like a crisis for the player. But you could argue mitigating circumstances: the team is defending differently from set pieces, which took a while for all the players to get used to; Sami has a new partner, Carra, alongside him; the defence has not had settled full-backs; and not only is the back line taking a position higher up the field, it also doesn't have a four-man midfield whose primary function is to screen those behind it.

From what I can tell, Sami's positional sense is still superb (you don't lose that, you only get better with age), his reading of the game remains as strong as ever, he is as good anyone at tackling without going to ground, and remains very composed in tight situations. He's a fine passer of the ball, but he needs options in midfield so he doesn't have to resort to long balls.

He also contributes, on average, four goals a season. That might not seem a lot, but it's four more than we get from all our other defenders (unless Riise is playing full-back). He tends to score crucial goals, not 'icing on the cake' goals.

Sami has weaknesses, but then who doesn't? One of Gerard Houllier's most insightful comments was that you pick players on account of what they can do; you do not omit them for something they can't. On the kind of thinking he is rightly dismissing, a manager would never have selected Michael Owen earlier in his career, as he was short and had no left foot to speak of.

If you go at Hyypia with pace and knock it into the space beyond him, there will be times when he will struggle. No doubts. Most of the time he will tackle, block or intercept the ball. But if not, he's done-for. In seasons gone by, anyone knocking it ten yards past Sami would be knocking it into the area, and straight to Jerzy, as we were defending the 18-yard line the whole time. Now we're looking to defend higher up, there is that space in behind. But defending higher up is all part of a more expansive game. It's swings and roundabouts.

One mistake Houllier did make, in my opinion, was installing Sami as captain. He just isn't captain material. Once the captaincy was stripped, Sami was seen as being "in decline". Captains need to be demonstrative: not necessarily with chest-thumping hystrionics, but at the very least they need to be constantly talking to others (as indeed Carra does). They need to do more than quietly lead by example (which Sami never failed to do). When the team struggled, Sami found his own form inhibited by the burden of being the team's leader; as if he was solely responsible for the team's ills. The time was right, just over a year ago, to make Steven Gerrard captain.

And so to Sami's latest troubles. At St Andrews on Saturday, Heskey was always going to turn him inside out; some players have their bête noire, who will give them nightmares. In training at Melwood, Heskey will have made a mug of Hyypia time and time again. Emile is that kind of player. He's made some of the best defenders in the world look like 11-year-old boys hopelessly out of their depth (Maldini and co. when England played Italy springs to mind; as do a number of games against Sol Campbell, whose pace and power should have meant he could negate Heskey, but it didn't).

It was as good as guaranteed that Emile was going to be a thorn in our side once he left, as his best games for us were always against Leicester, or in situations when he was 'wounded'. When he's fired-up, he's a frightening player. Trouble was always getting him wound-up in the first place; he was soporific in too many other games.

Pace at the heart of the defence has long been an issue –– but Carra is more mobile than either Hyypia or Henchoz, so there is already some improvement in that area. (And Traore at full-back, for all his shortcomings, does offer pace to cover across). It's just that the defence is being asked to do a different job: more exposed higher up the pitch, and without a four-man screening midfield. We're looking to be more creative, hence not sticking rigidly with two banks of four. Getting the balance right will take time, but that's Benitez's trick: last season, Valencia had by far the best defence, but only Real Madrid outscored them, by one single goal (and Madrid's failings have never been in attacking, have they? They were scoring goals for fun last season, just conceding more).

I don't deny that our defence is the area in need of most attention. But I just don't see the point of ditching Sami for the hell of it.

One thing I've become very aware of is that fans cry out for the solving of one problem, unaware of the new issues that will arise. When people are fed up with players, they call for their heads and offer alternatives; often, their suggestions would merely result in a new set of problems. Often called for is the exact opposite of what we have: when we needed steel in our 'passing' midfield in the 90s, everyone wanted an Ince; Ince arrived, and suddenly our passing wasn't so good. We were no better off, as while he often won the ball, he kept giving it away two seconds later.

Lose Hyypia, and we lose a hell of a lot of qualities. Before he arrived in 1999, we were struggling against high balls into the box from open play. Teams were just lumping it into the 'mixer' and seeing what happened (usually panic). They know they can't do that these days.

While Carra is very good in the air, he's not the tallest, and unlike Sami, couldn't cope with someone like Duncan Ferguson. Sami's height and spring means he can nullify the threat of the tallest strikers. He's also very good at knowing when to attack the ball when it's been launched upfield towards our goal; many centre backs get sucked under a high ball, only to misjudge it and then watch helplessly as it sails over their heads. If you notice, Sami gets into position early and, once set, only a foul or a prodigious leap can stop him clearing.

If we can find a better player than Hyypia, then by all means, bring him on (and the same applies to any player in the team). That said, I can't see any improvement on the big Finn being cheap, and it's hard to know who could do a better job and isn't already at a rival club unwilling to sell. The only name that springs to mind is Ledley King, as he is both quick and tall. He's still got some improving to do, but is getting better all the time. But I can't see Spurs selling, or, crucially, us having the funds to force their hand.

William Gallas is a great centre back, but would be a better partner for Sami than for Carra (in that Gallas relies on John Terry's aerial dominance). Gallas is back in the Chelsea side, and signing him would be impossible.

Beyond this you could throw a thousand names into the hat, and still not guarantee a better centre half than Sami. It may yet be something to resolve on the training ground, once Rafa can settle on his four best defenders, and drill them to the point it becomes second nature. (Something you cannot do in half-a-season). After all, at Arsenal in the late 80s, George Graham had three good defenders and one great one –– Tony Adams –– but he spent so much time working with them that they became legendarily parsimonious. (And none had much pace, either). When Wenger changed the dynamics of the midfield, so as to have it attack more freely, that defence –– after a season of getting used to the new ideas –– proved just as capable as it had under Graham's more defensive style of play. It can be done; just not in a matter of months.

While new players can often solve problems, they are not always the only answer. But to fans sat at home on their computer, it's the easiest solution, as you cannot easily speculate on how to better organize a defence every morning at Melwood.

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 02:37:59 pm by Rushian »

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2005, 10:50:52 am »
From what I've seen, Sami has had problems with positional play also.
Look at the Crouch goal.

The only thing to do is either play him through the spell or replace him.
Who can we replace him with ?
Pelle ? he looks like he needs time to adapt.
Djimi ? looks like a nervous kitten at times but recent last ditch tackles are in his favour
Whitbread ? Not ready in my mind

No, from what I can see we have no option but to hope he gets his act together.
 but will consider any options others have
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Offline Kanonkop

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2005, 11:04:09 am »
Sound analysis and agree that Hyppia has by and large been pretty solid this season and is strong in the air and isn't our biggest problem at the moment.

A couple of observations though.

On goals scored against us via headers, I seem to recall that we don't rate that well compared to the top three teams.  Probably not Hyppia's fault but something which needs to be sorted (i.e. why is everyone else failing at these defensive duties).  I think we have conceded 8 or so vs Chelsea 1 or 2 only.

Secondly, as we are defending higher up the pitch and using the zonal system - which I very much believe is the correct way forwards, it can as you say, open an area behind the defenders which is a risk.  Now, building on one of your other comments that changing one player may lead to necessary changes elsewhere, a way around having  Hyppia in the side (and its difficult to beat his positional awareness etc a la Tony Adams) is to have a different type of keeper.  One who is more prepared to impose himself on a one-on-one situation.  Someone in Peter Scmeichel's mould springs to mind.  I believe this might be the biggest answer to our defensive problems (and also reduce the goals scored against us by headers as both Kirkland and Dudek rarely impose themselves in the box under the high ball)
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Offline Jimmy10Men

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2005, 11:09:05 am »
Hyypia's still good enough. Great in the air, never panics, rarely see him having to go to ground. Sure, he's not the rock he was in the old set-up, but I still think he's good enough for us at the moment.

btw, Gallas has been in the side as Carvalho as been out for 6-8 weeks with a broken toe, think he's just come back now. Don't see him as a realistic signing though.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2005, 11:11:13 am »
From what I've seen, Sami has had problems with positional play also.
Look at the Crouch goal.


Was that Sami's fault? I thought that was the goal where Pellegrino gave the ball away, and Warnock was caught out of position on the left.

I think you can find any defender caught out of position in 'surprise' situations, and as I said in the piece, there is no escaping that Sami has made mistakes. But I don't see any inherent problems with his positional play, beyond being a little bit exposed by both defending higher up and having less defensive-minded midfielders ahead of him.

While he's been short of his very best, I do worry that people are being ultra-critical.

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2005, 11:21:57 am »
I think Sami is the best we have, ergo what are our options.

On Crouch goal, who was supposed to be marking him ?

I think we all like to see us defending higher up the park, but the problem of pace makes that nigh on impossible.
If we play on the half way line, one ball over the top and we're doomed.

Funny but earlier in the season I thought Carra would need covering by Sami until he settled in the new position.
Now after near 2/3 of the season all I can say is thank F*** for Carra
he has been a revalation this year and perhaps we will be looking for a new partner for him not Sami.

Sami has another couple of seasons left in him, but will the club or fan base be patient enough ?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 11:38:33 am by WOOLTONIAN »
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Offline Guy Incognito

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2005, 11:33:34 am »
We don't seem to have options at the moment. However, it is certainly one of the positions that Rafa needs to look at over the summer..... Agreed?

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2005, 11:40:53 am »
On Crouch goal, who was supposed to be marking him ?


My point was that the whole defence was out of position, and caught 'by surprise'. Any defender can be made to look a mug if his teammates make howling errors. Sami wouldn't have been touch-tight to Crouch when Pellegrino had the ball, as we were in comfortable possession as there was no sign of danger. I don't doubt Sami could have dealt better with it, but then it's all ifs and buts. The problem was Warnock being done, and Pellegrino giving the ball away sloppily.

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2005, 11:56:08 am »

My point was that the whole defence was out of position, and caught 'by surprise'.

That's the problem, it appears the defence "turns off" when we have the ball.
It's not like Sami has forward duties, he should concentrate on who he is marking, no matter who has the ball.
I'm not singling out Sami, the defences priorities are to mark attackers not enjoy watching us break forward.

Our defence as a unit have been caught many times this season watching what is going on elsewhere instead of doing what they are supposed to do.

We have FOUR players at the back marking either ONE or TWO up front, they should never be caught by surprise.
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Offline swiftylad

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2005, 11:56:16 am »
I dont think Sami is past it IMO if every body in the team upped their workrate by ten percent a lot of our problems would be solved

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2005, 12:05:02 pm »
It's not like Sami has forward duties, he should concentrate on who he is marking, no matter who has the ball.


But it is his job to find space when his partner has the ball, to give him the option of a pass.

I'm not saying he was doing that on the point in question, as I can't recall. But when in possession, it's our players' duty to find space - wherever they are playing. Of course, this will usually be by a centre half dropping back towards his own goal, to provide an angle.

I do agree that the defence needs to be better switched on, on the whole. I just think that glaring mistakes play other players into trouble, and it's tough to blame one player when he's been played into the mire by another. Cut out the mistake at source, and you have no problems.

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2005, 12:12:12 pm »
I agree with what you are saying mainly, but disagree defenders should find space by leaving their duty.
It's up to midfield players to find space not defenders

If the remaining back three all find space who is marking the attackers in case of break away.
To me it's basics that tells you to fullfil your own task before trying to become a midfield distributor.
We have four or five in midfield to find space and create
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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2005, 12:30:42 pm »
For what its worth I still think sammi is the best we have.Yes he is getting on and maybe benitez should be looking for two new centre halves but the transfer window is now closed.Someone with pace and comfortable on the ball.Please get Traore,Biscan,smicer away from LIVERPOOL FC   

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2005, 12:35:30 pm »
Our whole defence is not up to it.Look at Chelsea.Arsenal and even scum bags they all have strength pace and are good on the ball.Until we sort our weaknesses out at the back we will always struggle.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2005, 12:44:34 pm »
I agree with what you are saying mainly, but disagree defenders should find space by leaving their duty.
It's up to midfield players to find space not defenders


But watch most passing teams, and when one centre back has the ball, his partner will drop deep or wide to offer him a pass. That's how teams keep the ball at the back - by defenders finding space for one and other, and making the forwards work and chase. Midfielders will be marked man-for-man, but we should have four defenders to one or two attackers. That's where you work the ball across the back, until a man in midfield is free to receive, or, eventually, look to lump it as a last resort.

It's only a problem when a rubbish pass is played, as Pellegrino did on that occasion!   :butt

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2005, 12:55:36 pm »
You shouldn't ever pass the ball across the back Four or drop deep when your on the edge of yer own box.
Unless of course all the attackers are in their own half.

I've seen enough of Keane and Makelelelele dropping back to receive balls off their respective back fours.

As for trapping the ball and looking for a pass in yer own area, ask Djimi it's a no-no
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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2005, 12:57:41 pm »
yes your right about sami, paul, and im not convinced with cara, you need to remember also the system we deploy to defend, we have massive problems as a unit, they do not defend together, and as individuals all along that four, not one is comfortable recieving a ball, or keeping possesion of it, long hopeful ball down the flank shows desperation rather than the composure to work the ball out, but what worries me also is the lack of threat at a set piece down the other end.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2005, 01:08:46 pm »
You shouldn't ever pass the ball across the back Four or drop deep when your on the edge of yer own box.
Unless of course all the attackers are in their own half.


Teams in the Premiership do it all the time. It's only schoolboys who are taught not to, as it's something you can't risk unless you are good enough. There are, of course, differing degrees of risk (as you say, when the attackers are further away), but good players have no problem passing across their own box when forwards are closing them down. Watch and see how many times it happens in games.

As for Traore trapping a ball inside his own six yard box, that's plain suicide! Nowhere is that recommended in any coaching manuals!

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2005, 01:14:56 pm »
Paul, I don't think there is anything wrong with Sami's defending-bad day at the office on Saturday-at all. But he is becoming a liability because he cannot pass a football. He wins a huge amount of possession but then gives most of it away, causing us greater problems. if you watch Chelsea building an attack this season, Terry begins so many by driving the ball to the half way line and slipping an easy ball. Hyppia does not do this, he rarely moves forward with it and usually hits a mis hit lump up field or a mis placed short ball. All great footballing teams build from the back, we just give it away.

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2005, 01:15:06 pm »
Liverpool definitely sold the right centre-back (Henchoz) this winter.
Like you, I am a big fan of Hyypia's but he has never been the same player since Henchoz's injury problems began at the start of 2002-3 season.

Since then we have tried to pair Hyypia with Traore, Biscan, Carragher and recently Pelligrino and, although Carragher's individual form has been excellent this season, not even he has been able to form an understanding with Hyypia as effective as the one Henchoz had.

I think a re-evaluation of Henchoz's importance to the success of the pairing from 1999-2002 is way overdue.  Its been too easy for many to blame our previous tactics of defending deep solely on Henchoz, when its clear to me Hyypia favoured defending this way just as much, if not more.

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2005, 01:16:51 pm »
My own feeling is that our biggest problem at the back is the goalkeeper.You can see that the defence has no confidence in Dudek, his kicking has been poor,especially from back-passes, he is slow off his line, doesn't communicate (Carra can be easily heard, Dudek can't) and doesn't dominate his area. I feel that they are so worried that if they make a mistake they cannot rely on Dudek to help them out, it is affecting their own play.They looked so much more composed when Kirkland was in the side.

If you look at all the goals we've conceded recently from crosses, each one has been a high, deep ball and Dudek has just stood in the middle of his goal and watched the flight of the ball without making any attempt to, at the minumum, get in the attackers face. I just feel that once the defence have a keeper they feel confident in, then things will improve.

As for Sami, experience like his is vital to a side that wants to challenge for top honours.As was said earlier, we need a keeper behind him and Carra that will sweep, the way Clemo used to do, so that they know that if a player gets beyond them, there is someone there ready to help them out.
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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2005, 01:19:45 pm »

It's only schoolboys who are taught not to, as it's something you can't risk unless you are good enough.


That says it all in my mind, and currently we are not good enough.
Our back four looks very schoolbyish at times.
The only advice we got as schoolboys was...
see how far you can hoof it upfield
Stick to him like shit to a blanket
Lets see how fast he hobbles

cheers for the debate, enjoyed it no end
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2005, 01:21:55 pm »
The only advice we got as schoolboys was...
see how far you can hoof it upfield


 ;D

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2005, 01:23:25 pm »

Teams in the Premiership do it all the time. It's only schoolboys who are taught not to, as it's something you can't risk unless you are good enough. There are, of course, differing degrees of risk (as you say, when the attackers are further away), but good players have no problem passing across their own box when forwards are closing them down. Watch and see how many times it happens in games.

As for Traore trapping a ball inside his own six yard box, that's plain suicide! Nowhere is that recommended in any coaching manuals!
In recent seasons though there seems to have been a proliferation of this 'fannying around with the ball in your own box' stuff. I was always taught if in doubt, stick it in Row Z- but maybe that had more to do with my teammates' opinion of my passing abilities  :-[

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2005, 01:44:15 pm »

I've seen enough of Keane and Makelelelele dropping back to receive balls off their respective back fours.


quite frankly, the fact that we've had no one to do this consistently since Alsonso's injury has been our single biggest problem.  we can get the ball to Carra's or Hyppia's feet, but instead of trying to play the ball out of the back, as we did so well early in the season, we hoof it up front and lose possession immediately.

i've not seen near enough of shielding midfielders coming back to start attacks.  that's the position that is becoming the new playmaker in modern football, the players in front of the back four.

 
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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2005, 02:10:59 pm »
quite frankly, the fact that we've had no one to do this consistently since Alsonso's injury has been our single biggest problem.  we can get the ball to Carra's or Hyppia's feet, but instead of trying to play the ball out of the back, as we did so well early in the season, we hoof it up front and lose possession immediately.


That's why Alonso is a massive loss. That role is now compared to that of  a 'quarterback' (although as an American you'd understand that better!).

Hamann protects, but doesn't start moves. Alonso protects AND starts moves, long and short. He is our most important player, in many respects, as he is the fulcum.

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2005, 02:13:16 pm »
The problem is we need a new goalkeeper someone who commands the area and is not injury prone we also need a settled defence so it gives confidence to the rest of the team we haven't had a decent goalkeeper since Ray Clemence

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2005, 02:18:49 pm »

That's why Alonso is a massive loss. That role is now compared to that of  a 'quarterback' (although as an American you'd understand that better!).

Hamann protects, but doesn't start moves. Alonso protects AND starts moves, long and short. He is our most important player, in many respects, as he is the fulcum.

and he's a fulcrum too... :D  sorry, it's the copy-edit thing again...

still not sure how i feel about Sami, though, the problem with centre-backs, as opposed to strikers, is that it's more difficult to tell when they are past it.

with strikers, goals dry up, off you go, Son.  harsh, but easy to identify.

with central defenders, it's more subjective.  i'm not confident watching Hyypia play these days, and i think he's not winning as many balls in the air as he used to, which is his primary role alongside Carra.

but it's all "feelings" really, there's no hard evidence to back it up.  the only hard evidence i do have is his age.  and that's definitely on the slippery slide of the slope.



Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2005, 03:14:26 pm »
problem with Hyppia isn't that he's gotten slower, its that our game is played higher up the pitch and therefore he gets more exposure to fast forwards.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2005, 03:18:22 pm »
problem with Hyppia isn't that he's gotten slower, its that our game is played higher up the pitch and therefore he gets more exposure to fast forwards.

and with us maintaining possession less, he and the others in the back are under more pressure. 

plus, Dudek is not good coming off his line, which creates an uncomfortable tension in the back, witness Carra's refusal to pass back to Dudek several times when it was on during the Birmingham match...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2005, 03:27:44 pm »
quite frankly, the fact that we've had no one to do this consistently since Alsonso's injury


So who's this Alsonso fella then, if we're going to get picky!  :P  ;D

Good point on being able to tell when strikers have lost it. I just think defenders tend to improve with age and experience. Until they hit 33 onwards, and then they can start to lose it. But I don't see Hyypia as any different to Tony Adams in being able to go on for a few years yet...

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2005, 03:52:59 pm »

So who's this Alsonso fella then, if we're going to get picky!  :P  ;D

Good point on being able to tell when strikers have lost it. I just think defenders tend to improve with age and experience. Until they hit 33 onwards, and then they can start to lose it. But I don't see Hyypia as any different to Tony Adams in being able to go on for a few years yet...

duly noted, preparing to administer beating, until my morale improves, anyway... ;D
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2005, 04:31:53 pm »

So who's this Alsonso fella then, if we're going to get picky!  :P  ;D

Good point on being able to tell when strikers have lost it. I just think defenders tend to improve with age and experience. Until they hit 33 onwards, and then they can start to lose it. But I don't see Hyypia as any different to Tony Adams in being able to go on for a few years yet...

Obviously, Rafa has no problems playing older defenders- if they're still performing at a high level. Carboni at Valencia is a case in point.

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2005, 04:38:34 pm »
Couldn't agree more with you Paul. 

Sami is a first class defender and singling him out for criticism is wholly unfair.  There has not been a more consistent performer at Anfield since 1999 (Carragher included) and replacing him would be folly. 

Houllier made a hell of a lot of bad signings but the £2.6m spent on recruiting him (having seen him playing in defensive midfield, incidentally) was the best value buy of the Frenchman's reign by far.

He'll be 32 in October which gives him potentially another three years.  His injury record is enviable and he deserves more respect than having his credentials questioned by simpletons looking for a quick fix.

Unless there's a better player out there at a price we can afford (and I don't think there is), Sami is as good as it gets.  And that is still very,very good.

Offline murgaz

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2005, 05:27:07 pm »
Unless there's a better player out there at a price we can afford (and I don't think there is), Sami is as good as it gets.  And that is still very,very good.
That's our problem though isn't it? As good as it gets-no chance. Hyppia is a solid defender but his abysmal distribution is a liability now. If we are going to play the way Benitez wants us to then we need a centre back who can pass the ball and Hyppia, sadly, can't. It's time to slay a few of our sacred cows. Put Sami in our hall of fame as a great and cash in while we can

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2005, 06:06:47 pm »
The question is not if, but when we should replace Sami. When next season comes to an end, both Sami and Pellegrino will be off. By then we'll be forced to purchase a new CB. I'm not convinced we should wait that long. Perhaps it's better to rip it all up and sort things during the summer. That would mean Sami is off while Pellegrino stays. Plus we sign a top quality CB (who has pace).

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Offline Eric

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2005, 08:18:48 pm »
Thought the penno on saturday was a little rough.  Heskey went to ground way too easy for me, and thought Sami was just caught out  when Dudek should've played the cross.

Offline Kop4

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2005, 11:05:59 pm »
Thought the penno on saturday was a little rough.  Heskey went to ground way too easy for me, and thought Sami was just caught out  when Dudek should've played the cross.

You watching the same game?

SH ran from in front of EH (where he could have intercepted) to behind him, and still felt the need to foul him.
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Offline Kop4

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Re: Sami Hyypia: time to be put out to pasture?
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2005, 11:08:07 pm »
The question is not if, but when we should replace Sami. When next season comes to an end, both Sami and Pellegrino will be off. By then we'll be forced to purchase a new CB. I'm not convinced we should wait that long. Perhaps it's better to rip it all up and sort things during the summer. That would mean Sami is off while Pellegrino stays. Plus we sign a top quality CB (who has pace).


That's our problem though isn't it? As good as it gets-no chance. Hyppia is a solid defender but his abysmal distribution is a liability now. If we are going to play the way Benitez wants us to then we need a centre back who can pass the ball and Hyppia, sadly, can't. It's time to slay a few of our sacred cows. Put Sami in our hall of fame as a great and cash in while we can

Very much inclined to agree.  And yes it was apparent last year when GH tried to change things.
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Offline Kop4

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A slightly dissenting view of Paul Tomkins take on Sami Hyypia
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2005, 11:45:14 pm »
Checking the official site highlights section, I reckon that at SH can be implicated in about 14 of our 29 league goals conceded this season, most recently Heskey's v Brum.

If he is subjected to he same scrutiny as other less favoured players, especially (eg) a goalkeeper, you may care to check the following games (in date order) for goals conceded....

Tottenham
Fulham  x2
Blackburn  x2
Middlesbrough  x2
Portsmouth
Newcastle
MU
Southampon  x2
Fulham
Birmingham

These games show a variety of errors ..... poor pace, spring, positioning, distribution etc etc.

Some you may feel are harsh but all are worth considering.  If you have access to .tv check them out.

Oh, btw I do think he is our best option at the moment, so I am not anti SH as such. 

Here are some v. rough notes I made whilst watching the highlights:

Tottenham no challenge on Kanoute
Fulham mcbride leaves sh fd. Sh males no attempt to cut out the cross. 2nd sh too slow to close down boa morte
Blackburn – 1st sh tries to play o/s 30 yds out …… 2nd sh hesitant and passes to Emerton
Middlesbrough – sh no attempt to challeng header, Riggott fron 4 yds.  2nd sh fails to close down Hasselbaink
Portsmouth – sh beaten by lua lua after dudek parry
Newcastle – sh leaves Kluivert to close down dyer.  PK scores tap in
MU – SH steps aside for Rooney shot
Southampon – 1st sh passes cross out to Pellegrino. 2nd sh pulled into mf then doesn’t close down cross.
Fulham – was marking Cole but ran away from him and missed the cross.
Birmingham – 50yd punt – sh in front of eh, runs behind rather than intercept. Fouls eh.


Should I get me helmet? ???
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 11:50:25 pm by Bob Kurac »
A travesty of a sham of a mockery.