Author Topic: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup  (Read 10812 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« on: September 25, 2013, 09:50:30 pm »
This reminded me of the S'oton game, one lucky moment one way and missed chances the other. Some positives and a shit result.

Positives:
Sturridge, Suarez and Moses worked well together. Some of the attacking fluency was lovely to see. The relationship between Sturridge and Suarez is kindling nicely and seems to herald good things. Toure has settled in well, he was furthest forward a number of times, and but for De Gea making a couple of great saves, it could have been very different.

Negatives:
The same is also true of Mignolet though and once again let down by defending set pieces. Henderson needs to practice shooting. A lot. Gerrard needs protecting a little more than he gets and the margins of 1-0 works as well for us as against us.

Overall, I'm excited for a season where the attack looks sharp and exciting, the reality check of the last 7 days has perhaps reminded us to go forward cautiously but certainly.

Onwards and upwards. PS Giggs can still fuck off.
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Offline Garstonite

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 11:41:36 am »
I think it's a real shame that to read Rodgers' comments on how the 3-5-2 is effectively a temporary measure. I also think it's a real shame that Llori and Alberto are effectively £15m worth of bench filler. Where's the point in that? I know it's a long-term project, but we'd have benefited greatly from that money invested elsewhere. Namely someone like Capoue.

As I said in the post-match thread, I was unable to watch the second half as I had to drive back from work, but in the first half, we looked strong. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and refuse to admit that there were times I didn't want Suarez gone this summer. I didn't feel he was worth the hassle and would have preferred the money invested in players whose hearts were committed to the cause. BUT, it was nice to see him back on the pitch and he only knows one way of playing. He won't mope about the pitch like Torres did in his last six months. If this game achieved anything - because it obviously wasn't the system - it was shaking off some of Luis' rustiness.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 11:43:15 am by Garstonite »

Offline BazC

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 12:08:51 pm »
It's always gutting when you lose, and especially to that lot. But there were quite a few positives about that display, as I said in the post match game.

Firstly, the team's lined up ready for kick off and ... 3 at the back! We saw 3 at the back. Well, to be fair, we saw it for a brief period during the Southampton game (the period in between Skrtel and Agger going off I believe), but today we saw them set up like that from the start. I thought it was a positive change, because you could see the freedom it afforded Moses, Suarez and Sturridge, as well as give Lucas and Gerrard the support - Sakho was aggressive, in a good way, and largely good on the ball behind them. It's a formation you can see get the best out of Johnson and Cissokho (whom I haven't seen much of, but he seems to be more of an attack minded LB) and it'd give Coutinho the platform to conduct his orchestra in attack. As pointed out though, perhaps it won't be done that way if we've got everyone back fit and we'll revert to 4-3-3.

Suarez coming back and playing like that was a big plus. He lasted the whole match too, so you'd think he'd start against Sunderland on Sunday. We need him back in the goals to really start pushing this team forward. His interplay with Sturridge looked as promising as it did last season- they're 2 quick and skillful players and seem to know which run the other will make. It's just a shame that Coutinho's isn't there, because Suarez coming back in just on his own created enough space for our other attackers - the pass and move was starting to take more shape. Coutinho back fit and they'll all make each other enough space to really get at defences in a way we haven't seen for years I think. I can't wait.

We lost the 2nd game in a row on a set piece, which is a shame, because otherwise the defenders did well. Enrique is still a barmy player - he'll do something which is truly top class, but literally in the next second he'll give the ball away. He's clearly got the talent, but I don't know why he plays like he does. He's a sine wave of a player. Flits between 1 and -1, and sometimes all within 5 seconds worth of football. Barmy.

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Offline Aristotle

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 02:21:16 pm »
It's always difficult to say what is right and wrong in a cup elimination game. We're out so everything we did was wrong even what we did right. If you lose in the league on a Sunday you can win the next game and be better off than if you draw both. In the cups once you lose, you're gone until next season.

I did love that we went with a 3 at the back. I've always had a thing for them. I think that after this summer transfer window we really should go for that. With Toure, Agger and Sakho - possibly Ilori, too early to judge, we've got possibly the best ball playing back line in the league. I like Skrtel in that position, like a diet-Bonucci, if you will. It also allows us to get forward with more players. Agger would love the freedom to roam forward. So does Toure apparently and Sakho seems like he's up for it too.

This set up makes up for our lack of natural wide players, it compensates for our midfielders' ... lack of concentration. Yeah let's go with that. I thought we actually played very well. They scored that goal - and it was all that was needed - but I've never felt more comfortable playing them. I didn't ever feel threatened by them. As I said after the game it felt much like a loss for us than a win for them. Suarez and Sturridge had great chemistry, like they did. Although I'm getting quite worried about Sturridge not getting a moment's rest considering how he's been playing. He's carrying an injury, lacking in fitness and can't play to the full of his abilities. It really is a wonder that he's played so well and scored all those goals considering he looks a ways off the player we saw last season. I'd hate for his unbelievable progress as a player to be undone by Wengerism.

I take some solace from the fact that if we play more games like this, get players back from injury and our returning players up to speed. Then we'll do a hell of a lot better than we did last season. It took us until October 28th to get 10 league points, we're now standing at the same place and with a favourable run of games coming. I see room for improvement and a possibility to achieve it. Let someone else explain why or why not.

Lastly, somewhat unrelated to the game itself, I do love fickle natured beast that is the football fan. Skrtel got his fucking head torn off for conceding a corner against Soton. It was that we never should've been in a corner to concede from a corner. Toure does the same and Enrique is the one at fault.
Of course it was the team that failed collectively both times, I just find it funny how individuals are picked for being responsible, one after the other yet never on the same terms.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 02:23:57 pm by Aristotle »
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Offline BazC

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 04:23:29 pm »
Was it even definitely a corner? Anyway, it was way too harsh, and a bit mental, to blame Skrtel for that goal last weekend. He gave away a corner and the team didn't defend it properly. Just as yesterday, the fault lies with the slacking off in defending it.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 07:24:46 pm »
maybe there is a natural law at play here - we've been dreadful at defending set pieces for over a season but the stats haven't backed it up now we've lost two games on the bounce to set pieces - hopefully that natural law will be satisfied and back off or our management by metrics team will step i finally adress the issue and we can move on

loved Toure's enthusiasm but have no idea where he was playing

damn shame Coutinho is out - behind that front three it could work very well - not sure why Gerrard isn't the natural replacement in there - he could direct things very well from there and it would allow Henderson to use his natural box to box ability inside ,

three at the back was a good shout but it was against the saints too and we didn't use it - two up front from Moses, Sturridge and Suarez would alllow us to rotate and rest players - in danger of trying to play all our best players rather than a system -

nice to see kelly get on

I thought it was a decent game, we deserved a goal but I've heard that before - we do lack a killer instinct and our squad lacks the depth and experience that the league will demand - we'll need a helping hand, our best players to be available and a couple of teams to underperform to get that top 4 spot I think - we did well but I'd hoped for better or maybe less from united who where there for the taking I think - I think they'll be fighting with us for top 4 this year rather than a title



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Offline Hinesy

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 08:57:01 pm »
Bump. Back to Earth with a...
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 09:03:18 pm »
Another bit of clueless defending, Johnson, agger and
Erique are prone to lapses in concentration. You can't carry that.

As for the game, three things stand out for me. The first being how Enrique fucks up so much of our play.

Second how weak our midfield is, too many games or periods in games where we get totally overrun.

Finally our attacking play is far too greedy. Suarez, sturridge etc all miss obvious
Passes through greed. It costs us dearly.

We need better players to start.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 09:54:48 pm by itsgunnabebarnes! »
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Offline princeoftherocks

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 09:12:16 pm »
When I watched this game I was reminded of Rodgers' words in regards to how he wants his team to play.  United scraped a win.  They needed a mistake from us.  I was watching us evolving.  I was, and am, really proud of our team.  Everyone's already writing us off as top four contenders after one poor performance.  But, who are the in-form teams in the league now? Surely, we are one of them.

disclaimer:  I've had a few beers.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 09:17:51 pm by princeoftherocks »
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Offline Cormack Snr

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 09:38:22 pm »
When I watched this game I was reminded of Rodgers' words in regards to how he wants his team to play.  United scraped a win.  They needed a mistake from us.  I was watching us evolving.  I was, and am, really proud of our team.  Everyone's already writing us off as top four contenders after one poor performance.  But, who are the in-form teams in the league now? Surely, we are one of them.

disclaimer:  I've had a few beers.

I don't think DRAW- LOST- LOST can be regarded as in -form, beer or no beer.

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 09:48:16 pm »
Being a cup competition the result speaks louder than the performance, but the reality was the build up play and impetus was with us, we lacked some conviction upfront, but with a rusty Suarez and with Sturridge not 100% fit, in hindsight that could have been anticipated.

There are a few things i liked about this game, we went there with intent, we wanted to win that game and we sure as hell took it too them, we controlled the majority of the game in possession, i like how we were tactically adaptable it suggests we're intuitive to our opposition and what we have available to work with.

Had both Suarez and Sturridge been 100% at the races i've no doubt that result would have ended in our favour, as it was a heavy touch here, a burst of pace there away from them getting in and burying our chances.

As Kenny said in his tweet, if we play like that we'll win more than we lose, and wholly agree - i think the majority of frustrations vented are because we went out the cup and it was against Gollums United, also we played well enough to win but didn't see the game over the line.

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Offline Jizzinho

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 09:48:44 pm »
Don't know how many beers you've had but that's not our league form :)

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2013, 09:55:53 pm »
Results and performances don't necessarily go hand in hand. A successful team is the one that grinds results without playing well, as we've done in the first few games. But without good performances, we will never achieve anything of value.

We had a good performance against a weakened United team. The game was a good measure where we stand in terms of squad quality and ability. Fourth place seemed out of reach a bit, doesn't it? I know we are still on points target, but things tend to level off over the coarse of a season. To qualify for the CL we need to seriously overachieve, which we have done in the first three games without the merited performances. Why am I talking about the league in a cup game thread? Because of we play as we did yesterday in the remaining 33 games, we have a fighting chance! And that's what matters. We want to be in all competitions, but we got booted out by the Champions, not by a second division team. And who wouldnt trade that cup loss for a CL spot?

Best performance by a country mile this season, IMHO, and long may it continue. The results will come.
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Offline JimmySpindle

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 09:58:45 pm »
When I saw the lineup I was ecstatic. 3-5-2. I was talking with another member here, Wilmo, and we were wondering when it was going to be whipped out! He even mentioned that Henderson would be great at right wing back. Whilst he wasn't "great," I do think he was the best option to go for, with Wisdom being so... let's say young... Johnson out and Kelly just on his way back. The formation allowed us to play Sakho, which Rodgers obviously wanted to do with his 4 centre back debacle at Soton. ALSO it allowed us to play both Suarez and Sturridge up front. I was surprised at the strength of the team played, to be honest, because we've been tiring in the second halves I thought we might give some first teamers a break, however a new formation and Suarez to reintroduce was probably important enough to take the game as a good training session. Not that the cup means nothing or that the pace should be lower than a normal game, but I'd rather take the win against United in the league. Testing a new formation, trying Hendo rwb and also Suarez+Sturridge up front. Perfect. I just hope we're not tired this weekend.

I was concerned with Moses in the hole. We didn't have too much option - Maybe we could have played Gerrard there or Alberto, I don't know. Either way we were always going to miss Coutinho. I was wondering whether we could have played Suarez there and given Aspas another shot up front. A game that was always going to match the tempo of a premier league game without the 3 pts hanging on it would be a good chance for him, I thought.

Enrique was strong in defence and gave good options out wide in attack. Sakho looked composed and strong. Moses had some good dribbling with no end product. However I thought he tracked back well.

The commentator said it was Enrique's fault, the goal. I can see that, but what about Gerrard missing the front post header? He had all the time in the world!

Either way, with the 2 and 1 in the middle we don't have the most fluid of midfields, which feels strange to say considering our philosophy and our play in other areas. We struggle to work them in the middle. I'd expect to be harder to break down as a positive to it, but through my rose-tinted glasses we don't seem to be (I say rose-tinted because it's easy to get frustrated at a single mistake, for instance, and assume your team is playing badly when they're not playing great.)

I was happy with the performance, overall. Sturridge + Suarez weren't that sharp in the box, or we didn't create too many chances I don't know. I think we would have won if Hendo's shot had gone in.

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 10:12:16 pm »
Not too gutted by the result all things considered. Our performances were mostly poor this season but the results good. That's a situation that never lasts in the long term, hence our recent run. But at least last night we ended the run of bad performances. If we continue to play well results will for the most part follow. We did ok in midfield although the Mancs are pretty poor in that department. Family guy makes Gerrard look energetic at this point and should have walked. And Nani stank the place out just like our previous encounter. There will be sterner tests.
 
I'm starting to hate set pieces with a passion now. One brain fart costs us the game again. I'm not going to tear Enrique apart the way some inexplicably did to Skertl after last weeks game. I've seen them all cost us from set pieces by now so I have to wonder about the coaching of our defenders at this stage. You can blame a new player every week but let's remember Chelsea forgot how to defend set pieces under big Phil. I think we need to work harder in this respect.

Suarez was fantastic and as is so often the case didn't deserve to be on the loosing side. Henderson look's a little lost out wide and I'd like to see him get a chance to start in the middle in place of one of our current two.  I haven't a clue how any of this will carry into the Sunderland game but a similar level of performance would see us win. What will we get?


Offline perspectiveplease

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2013, 10:15:14 pm »
Probably better suited here than amongst the one liners in the other thread:

I think some perspective is needed. For all intents and purposes we were playing against a second string side last night. A defence consisting of Evans, Smalling and Buttner should be comfortably beaten [particularly by sides with a top 4 aspiration]. The RB, Rafael, had been injured since the start of the season and it was his first game back with little to no match fitness. In front of the shaky back line was a midfield pairing of Giggs and Jones. How were they not dominated?  One is 39, the other Phil Jones. On the wing/up front they had Nani/Kagawa and Hernandez: all lacking match fitness and rusty. The only two regular players from the starting line-up were a gash[ed] Rooney and De Gea. Based on both sides performances, a draw would have been fair for either side. But based on each sides team selections at kick off, we should have beaten them comfortably. There’s no excuses.

For me the recent results in the league have been papering over the cracks. While 1st place is 1st place, I've maintained we've been rather lucky to be in the top position and I haven’t got carried away or bought too much into the hype as many others have. After all, we say it every year. Our wins haven't been dominant. We've scraped through numerous 1-0 wins now, some deserved and others lucky, while Mignolet has saved our blushes on many an occasion with top drawer saves [he's a fantastic acquisition]. Shelvey gifted us a draw against Swansea with his mental lapses. We snuck through the Stoke tie after a penalty save. We accepted an ugly 1-0 win against United after an early set piece goal and spent the remaining 80~ minutes in our own half with 10 men behind the ball. Last week the decision to play 4 CBs [at home, let us not forget] against Southampton was baffling and cost us the game. It's all too negative. On paper right now I would say we should be happy with 5th. If we were to continue with this form and negative tactics, I can only see us dropping further. Brendan is going off on a tangent here and it isn’t working.

Only 4 players have scored for us so far this campaign in either the LC or league. Only Sturridge has scored more than 1 goal. Our reliance on him is paramount and without him we're toothless right now. I dread an injury or loss of form, but it’s likely to happen if nobody lessens the weight on his shoulders and Brendan doesn’t rest him. We’ve already lost Coutinho and it shows on the pitch. Just not good enough.

The switching of formations/playing players out of position is perplexing and is costing us points. Henderson as a wing back is a square peg in a round hole. Enrique was poor as per. Moses was anonymous bar missing an absolute sitter. Lucas is playing as a shadow of his former self right now. Gerrard looks fatigued. The only players to really come out of the game with anything were Mignolet, the CBs and Suarez.

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 11:18:37 pm »
I’m disappointed for two reasons, mainly I love a good cup run but also wouldn’t the next week or so have been thoroughly enjoyable as the media and MU fans dissect a defeat. Alas, we’ll have to concentrate on the two positives instead, we’ve established that we may finally have a great CB in our team. I’ve only seen Sakho a couple of times but there’s a golden thread of quality running through him, from his brain to his feet.

And of course we have Luis back to make the unexpected happen again.

I’ll probably get slammed for his but for me Sturridge conducted himself in a manner that got Robbie Keane loads of stick for on here, inevitably in football things don’t go your way but just get up and play lad.

I can’t exhibit much else positive about going out of a cup, the lads gave a weakened Man U team a good game and pinned them back for large spells but I still feel we’re not creating as many chances as the standard set last season. Watching it I just felt we lacked elements of quality in so many areas – we’re rarely going to get a full squad to choose from but losing a technical player like Johnson alters what we are too greatly.

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 11:55:08 pm »




The switching of formations/playing players out of position is perplexing and is costing us points. Henderson as a wing back is a square peg in a round hole. Enrique was poor as per. Moses was anonymous bar missing an absolute sitter. Lucas is playing as a shadow of his former self right now. Gerrard looks fatigued. The only players to really come out of the game with anything were Mignolet, the CBs and Suarez.

Moses was not anonymous in the least. Even simple statistics, let alone careful reviewing of the game, should convince anyone of good faith that he was not anonymous bar missing an absolute sitter. It wasn't an absolute sitter, either.

Lucas is not playing as a shadow of his former self right now. He's not hit the zenith of his pre-injury (the knee one) form, but he's not playing as a shadow of his former self right now.

Gerrard does look fatigued and (perhaps because of that also) a bit mentally jaded. That he was 'ignored' by Enrique when Suarez passed to ball to either/both of them and he took an ill-advised shot is either another example of Enrique being Enrique (stubborn as a mule) or an example of the loss of authority by Gerrard except over the young lads (and Lucas).
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 01:28:36 am »

I was concerned with Moses in the hole. We didn't have too much option - Maybe we could have played Gerrard there or Alberto, I don't know. Either way we were always going to miss Coutinho.

The commentator said it was Enrique's fault, the goal. I can see that, but what about Gerrard missing the front post header? He had all the time in the world!


Old Trafford is a very hard place to come and play well in. That's why they've been champions of so long. We did well, but we lacked end product. In particular Hendo should've at least drawn a save with his effort, and you'd expect Moses (a forward) to score with a free header from 6 yards. He was centrally placed, had forward momentum and the ball was a comfortable height. De Gea was actually quite off to the right, so a lot of goal to aim for but he still managed to find De Gea.

I'm not convinced by Henderson in a wide position. I know he can do a job there but he doesn't have the dribbling or creativity or left foot ability to give us goal threat. I'd much rather he play centrally and we give some genuine speedsters a chance on the wing (Moses, a Sterling, Ibe). Hendo in particular has good recover pace. He's the sort of player that could recover if someone got past Lucas or Gerrard - at least enough to either block a shot or apply enough pressure to allow the defence to organise. We saw kagawa roll Lucas and Lucas just amble after him rather than try to put a bit of pressure on. Gerrard was also very poorly positioned in that move, just standing in no mans land and not pressuring. So a bit of tactical and effort improvement needed from the middle.


Enrique was supposed to be marking Hernandez and had he stuck with him, it would've been ver difficult for him to even get the ball let alone a shot. That was a routine near post clearance that Gerrard had all the time and no pressure to clear, but obviously no one is going to blame the England captain for essentially missing a free header. Even if he'd missed it, had Enrique been there, he would not have scored, so a combined error but really a very very soft goal like against Soton.

It's disappointing to know that we possibly could've and should've won the game but the positives are that we played well in parts, Suarez, Enrique and Kelly are all back on the field and Allen in the squad again. If we can just cut down these soft errors, keep the ball a bit better and improve our final product then I'm sure we'll start winning.

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 03:33:55 am »
What struck me was how much better we looked when the intensity was increased.  We've played at a far too pedestrian pace a lot this season, but the last half hour in particular, we looked more threatening than in most of our football this season.

Stevie looks particularly lazy defensively at the moment, like his head isn't quite right.  That was a terrible error on the corner.  Maybe this is related to cumulative fatigue?

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 06:54:13 am »
I was just going to say Gerrard was at least as much to blame for the goal as Enrique. He pussied out of that header because he was worried someone was coming behind him. Well...someone was, and they scored.

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2013, 07:12:35 am »
It was game where although we had the ball a lot in the final 3rd, we never really looked like scoring. the ball seemed to bobble and bounce its way out of harm’s way... rustiness from Suarez, and too many games and not enough rest for Sturridge. I believe on another day, when the forward line has 10 games under their belts and we have a more settled defensive 4, we would win that game 9 times out of 10.

Now Luis is back, the goals will come, but for me the defence needs major work. Im not sure how and what to do, I am not paid to do that, but it is clear it is not right… yet!
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Offline Robbo1980

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2013, 07:18:02 am »
Enrique was excellent apart from  1 error and lapse...defensivly he was a monster and attacking  wise he was actuallly good...chances created for both luis and moses...mr realism post above is miles off the mark with almost everything written..

Offline Mingle

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2013, 07:27:27 am »
Enrique was excellent apart from  1 error and lapse...defensivly he was a monster and attacking  wise he was actuallly good...chances created for both luis and moses...mr realism post above is miles off the mark with almost everything written..

why am I off the mark?
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2013, 08:39:30 am »
Another bit of clueless defending, Johnson, agger and
Erique are prone to lapses in concentration. You can't carry that.
I think we need to stop blaming the individuals and consider if we are as well organised as we could be for defending corners.

We are defending with a very rigid man to man system, with a single front screen. Whenever I look at us defending corners (and I sit in line with the penalty spot at the kop end of the main stand) it always seems to me that we are leaving acres of space for attackers to run into.

United's corner was a simple one - they dropped it short, just behind the front screen whilst their big guys took our guys towards the back half of the 6 yard box. Hernadez came off the back post and met the ball in 3 yards of space. Admittedly, Enrique was flat footed, but he is reacting, so will always be second there.

I'm not necessarily advocating comlete zonal marking, but elements of it would help in my view. I think there are certain areas that need to be defended - predominantly the edge of the 6 yard box, especially the front half of it. Sakho marking that space (Where Hyypia did for Rafa) stops that goal 100% of the time.

To turn Andy Gray's supremely simplistic soundbite against him - I saw space score a goal on Monday night. To be more precise, the failure to close space made the goal possible.

All man to man does is gives you someone to blame, which we are getting very good at. I would prefer not to concede.
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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2013, 08:59:20 am »
Have to say three at the back looked really good. Yes we lost the game but the performance was solid and all bar Moses were playing in roles that suited them. Henderson while not a fullback has the stamina and speed to get up and down the pitch and I thought did a really good job. Should have done better with his finishing but at least he was getting into good positions. Enrique owned the left hand side and 3-4 of his crosses could have ended in a goal.  The one tweak I think we need to make is pulling Moses out of the no.10 position. He by no means played badly but I think Allen would be a better fit with his passing and ability to operate in tight spaces. Desperately need Coutinho but until then Allen I think is the best option we've got.

Much happier with Rodgers approach compared to S'oton and I'm confident we could hurt a lot of teams with that setup.   Thought Rodgers made a few very costly mistakes in that game but all you can ask is that Rodgers learns from them and adapts. I felt he did against Man Utd. It's never going to be an easy game and Old Trafford but we did a good job holding our own even if we didn't get the result.
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Offline redk84

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2013, 09:48:03 am »
We've had a reminder against Southampton and the mancs about what this season is gonna be like.

When the tide seems to be turning our way, with three 1-0s on the trot and everyone happy it can all change within a few days. Bang. Two losses, and out of a cup competition.

Against Southampton we were poor and deserved it.

Against these lot we deserved more from the game, but that matters fuck all as these days as (although i would prefer seeing a positive performance if we HAVE to lose)....the loss is all that matters.
Too many seasons have gone by where we have battered teams to a 0-0 or 1-1 draw or late loss....and so we need to be more clinical. Our mentality we all know has to improve (the main cry was to bring leaders into the squad this summer right?) well yeah there's a reason for that, games like against these...and Southampton where we need to break a team down.

United tried to get at us from kick off in both halves, we weathered the storm, if you could call it that, in the first half but conceded to a piss poor corner in the 2nd half. Now a team like United love a 1-0 lead, they win championships off a 1-0 lead. You can handpick the amount of games they've dropped points to English teams after taking the lead. Recent managerial changes aside, that doesnt just go from a team (give Moyes time, he will beat that outta them im sure)....so what do u do in situations like that? what did we do?

We ll we played quite well, built up play well, weren't giving it away as much as we did on the weekend. Probably because United were not stepping up on us to pressure as much as the Saints.....but the few chances we had we did not take and the game ended and that was that.

The positives are the return of Suarez and the link up play looked alot more fluid. I thought our defence looked quite good for the most part and Agger will have to work to get back in the team. We will see many games like the last two though.....in the rest of the season.....im pretty confident in our team when we take the lead in games. Im looking for the games where we go 1-0 down, or things arent going our way......we need to start getting something from these games. Twice now we have got nothing. I will keep a keen eye on this from now on....we need to get over this complex if we want to be getting fourth and beyond
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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2013, 09:58:26 am »
This is probably going to come across as overly negative, and maybe it is, but we need to temper our views we hold regarding the quality of player we have. Now some of the following wasn't displayed last night, some was.

Mignolet, excellent shot stopper, poor with his feet.

Gerrard, looks fucked, struggles to get back and support Lucas.

Lucas, again, looks fatigued, his 'turn and recover' looks to have deserted him at the moment.

Suarez, as good as he is, loses posession far more than he should.

Sturridge, see Suarez.

Skrtel, Enrique, Johnson, all extremely solid players, yet all prone to 'Brain farts' and quite often lead to conceding.

Now I know we can't actually produce a perfect footballer, but all the above are glaringly obvious.
As is the fact that this is Brendans 3rd/4th way of setting the side up, I'm running out of ideas as to why he keeps changing it.

Perhaps this is one for PoP, or one of the other students of the game, where is he heading with it ? No injuries, what system/personnel does he play ?

Wednesday game highlighted a few of the 'faults' I listed earlier. It frustrates me that we put it down to "Another one of those nights", when do we rid ourselves of these.

I got quite excited last night at the lineup, knowing that the only way we could accommodate those players was a 352/3412. It worked, we dominated for much of the game, only to be let down by a brainfart, and an innability to finish off some of our flowing football.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2013, 10:03:33 am »
Funny old game, football. Twice we've faced United this season. Twice it's been decided by a defensively avoidable goal from a set piece, and twice the losing side had a valid argument to say that they were hard done by overall. This time it was our turn.

The most pleasing aspect for me was the evident adjustments made to negate the pressure applied to our defensive unit. There was very clear evidence that we had learnt the lessons of Southampton and to a lesser extent, Swansea, who had both caused us major problems in that regard. Time and again when in possession, Mignolet could be seen gesturing to the centre backs to push up, as we looked to drop the ball over the top of the United press and play on the second ball. It immediately made us a little less predictable and somewhat ironically, as a result it allowed us to play out from the back on occasion, only this time under less pressure thanks to United not being quite so certain about what we were doing. In addition to that, it was very evident that whenever the ball did find its way to one of the central defenders, the two holding midfielders, gerrard in particular, were making a concerted effort to create an angle and become available for a pass. That didn't happen often enough against Southampton, but here it made a big difference, this time allowing us to play through the United press and retain possession much more effectively.

The other (admittedly obvious) major plus point was the return of Suarez, who, despite a minimal amount of playing time was arguably our standout performer. We all know what he brings to the side, but with it being missing for a sustained period of time, suddenly seeing it laid out in front of you once again made that impact seem all the more stark. Without Coutinho in the side we can often appear fractured as a team, without the obvious link between the lines of defence and attack that he provides. Suarez offered us that on Wednesday night, dropping deep to collect the ball and - in typical Suarez fashion - going one further and rolling his marker on several occasions. That alone brought an invention and an unpredictability to our attacking play that has largely been missing during his absence. As others have pointed out, his presence on the field alone affords space to others as well. The prospect of a fully fit Coutinho, Sturridge and Moses alongside Suarez is a mouthwatering one. Between them, physically there's nothing that they lack. There's pace, power, invention and technical ability in abundance. The one thing that could arguably be worked on (Suarez aside) is the mentality aspect.

Now, perhaps i'm being harsh on Sturridge, who lets not forget has been consistently played through necessity despite carrying an injury and that's evidently affected his performances, and no doubt created a frustration on his part. But still, he demonstrated on a few occasions on Wednesday night, the kind of mentality that I don't like to see from our players. There were a few shrugs of the shoulders, rolls of the eyes, and when he lost out in a fifty-fifty, you'd see him sat on the floor with his arms spread as if to question the unfairness of it all. Regardless of the frustration he may be feeling, that kind of body language sends out all of the wrong signals, to his teammates, his opponents and the thousands watching. Rene Meulensteen outlined this point in a recent interview, discussing how he had laboured a similar point to Cristiano Ronaldo during his time at United:

“I put a video together for him about top professionals like Muhammad Ali, Pele with little quotes from them. ‘Just have a look at this video,’ I told him, ‘I know you have a big TV. Read the clips. It will put you in good stead.’ There were little quotes about hard work and focus: focus on performance rather than outcome, focus on putting your qualities for the team and also body language. There were loads of times with Cristiano when he shrugged his shoulders, so I put a video clip together.”

The clips were of Ronaldo’s body language. “Do you realise how important an impact body language and facial expressions have on the millions watching?’’ Meulensteen asked Ronaldo at Carrington one day. “What do you mean?’’ Ronaldo replied.

Meulensteen continued: “Do you remember the goal you scored against Sporting [Lisbon on Nov 27, 2007] at home, the free-kick? You turned around to the camera, and did this [spreads hands out]? What were you trying to say? Sorry? Or were you trying to say ‘look at me, nobody else can do that’?’’

One of United’s kit-men was present.

“I asked him what he thought the gesture meant,” Meulensteen recalled.

“I’m the best,” was the kit-man’s take on Ronaldo’s stance. So Meulensteen turned to Ronaldo and said: “That’s what the millions think. They look at you as arrogant. You do the same thing when you get hacked down, ‘ahhh’, toys out the pram: ‘You can’t kick me, I’m Cristiano Ronaldo.’ You need to learn to play football the way Bjorn Borg and Roger Federer play tennis. Ice-cold. The moment people stop kicking you is because they’ve found another way to stop you. You want people to kick you. You need to make sure you see it coming. Make sure you’re clever’.”

It was back to the video-room. “I showed him clips of Johan Cruyff, an expert at avoiding tackles. He saw them coming, would change direction, and people would slide in front of him. I told Cristiano: ‘The most important thing is your facial expression, don’t react at all. Stand up, brush yourself off, and that defender thinks, ‘what can I do next?’ Overpower him with your qualities as a footballer, belittle him with your skill. You’re in control, not someone else.’


That said, I was surprised to see Sturridge start this game. I could understand him starting previously because we had very little alternative, but with Suarez available again this was surely the time to take him out and allow him the rest he clearly needs to fully recover. There is a very real concern that we could play him into further injury if we persist in fielding him for the duration each and every game despite the clear warning signs, not least from Sturridge's own mouth.

Overall though, it was a pleasing performance unfortunately undone by another avoidable error from a set piece. There are further lessons that need to be learnt, but there is evidence that we are doing just that and that, in particular, as I began by outlining, gives me hope. One thing's for certain, we'll play far worse than that and win this season. Likewise, we'll play far better and lose. Funny old game, football.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 10:42:02 am by Grobbelrevell »
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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 10:33:59 am »
Rene Meulensteen outlined this point in a recent interview, discussing how he had laboured a similar point to Cristiano Ronaldo during his time at United:


Excellent post, I've highlighted this bit as I do really wonder if Rodgers couldn't do with a #2 like Muelensteen working with him - someone who is going to challenge his ideas, someone who isn't there just to take drills and put out cones. Meulensteen is a visionary in football, his methods and ideas are usually ahead of the curve and I think he'd form an unbeatable partnership with Rodgers. This isn't something I've pondered just since a couple of defeats, it's something I looked at last season, has Rodgers got enough strong characters around him? The addition of a committe that really questions his ideas in the transfer market (see Williams from Swansea etc.) in my opinion has made us much better in that regards, and we have a structure that has taken a bit of the control away from Rodgers who isn't really ready for a totalarian role. I'm sure PoP will dazzle me with a thousand words on the merits of yes men type coaching staff who are there to take drills and carry out Rodger's plans, but for me the strongest coaching staff we could have would include someone who will challenge Rodgers and challenge the players to really take the next step.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2013, 11:18:18 am »
Meulensteen is a visionary in football, his methods and ideas are usually ahead of the curve and I think he'd form an unbeatable partnership with Rodgers.

Very, very interesting this chap. I have only heard good things about him. I don't know much about coaching so maybe the things he says are de rigueur at that level.I am sure POP could enlighten us on this point.

His recognition on the importance of psychology, particularly the focus on performance and not on results and not showing any weakness for a defender to exploit, is very impressive.
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Offline OldBloke

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2013, 11:55:38 am »
We played a hundred times better against United than against Southampton and that is all you can really ask for. It was unfortunate that we lost to a soft goal. Gerrard misjudged the cross and moved forwards when he was already in the right place, just a mistake we didn't get away with. I was surprised Gerrard played, he looks very tired.
I don't think we give Chicarito enough credit for losing Enrique the way he did. I think he deliberately got Enrique on the line so that he would be in two minds about whether to stay there or follow him out. He's a good player and I can't understand why he stays there watching donkeys like Young and Wellbeck picked ahead of him.
If Jordan Henderson could kick a ball straight we would have walked the game. I'd have him practicing nothing else but shooting if I was Rodgers. The rest of his game is great, he must have run twice as far as anyone else during that game.
I thought the highlight of the game was Suarez shouting leave it at Giggs.
United were nothing to write home about. I don't think the team that got hammered by City or the one we played are any better than us. With Moyes' negative tactics we might even finish above them.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2013, 01:42:58 pm »
I think we need to stop blaming the individuals and consider if we are as well organised as we could be for defending corners.

We are defending with a very rigid man to man system, with a single front screen. Whenever I look at us defending corners (and I sit in line with the penalty spot at the kop end of the main stand) it always seems to me that we are leaving acres of space for attackers to run into.

United's corner was a simple one - they dropped it short, just behind the front screen whilst their big guys took our guys towards the back half of the 6 yard box. Hernadez came off the back post and met the ball in 3 yards of space. Admittedly, Enrique was flat footed, but he is reacting, so will always be second there.

I'm not necessarily advocating comlete zonal marking, but elements of it would help in my view. I think there are certain areas that need to be defended - predominantly the edge of the 6 yard box, especially the front half of it. Sakho marking that space (Where Hyypia did for Rafa) stops that goal 100% of the time.

To turn Andy Gray's supremely simplistic soundbite against him - I saw space score a goal on Monday night. To be more precise, the failure to close space made the goal possible.

All man to man does is gives you someone to blame, which we are getting very good at. I would prefer not to concede.

Whether it's man to man or zonal, an individual or two are always to blame for conceding goals, bar a freak goal. It doesn't matter whether you close space, or mark players - somebody is eventually going to have to contact the ball and direct it to the net, and that means somebody is responsible for that player, whether they were man-marking them, or zonal marking. The principles of defence apply equally to set pieces as they do to open play.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 01:47:03 pm »
One of the things that pissed me off the most during this game was an early misplaced pass by Moses. Suarez threw his hands in the air and completely stopped playing for a good few seconds.

I couldn't help but throw my hands up at the TV every time Suarez misplaced a pass after that.

Offline TomMorganLittle

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2013, 02:40:46 pm »
Llori
I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I.

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Offline Garstonite

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2013, 11:34:34 pm »
I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I, I-L-O-R-I.



Arsed.

Offline Macedonian Red Reborn

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2013, 11:47:29 pm »
I think it's a real shame that to read Rodgers' comments on how the 3-5-2 is effectively a temporary measure.

I wouldn't take Rodgers' comments on the 3-4-1-2 being a temporary measure very seriously. He hasn't collected 8 central defenders (Agger, Sakho, Skrtel, Toure, Ilori, Wisdom, Kelly, Coates) for a temporary measure.
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2013, 09:02:39 am »
Whether it's man to man or zonal, an individual or two are always to blame for conceding goals, bar a freak goal. It doesn't matter whether you close space, or mark players - somebody is eventually going to have to contact the ball and direct it to the net, and that means somebody is responsible for that player, whether they were man-marking them, or zonal marking. The principles of defence apply equally to set pieces as they do to open play.
Interesting that, mate, because from memory the only individual who ever got blamed for us conceeding when "zonal" was Benitez. In fact, he wasn't so much blamed as lampooned.

I get what you're saying - ultimately you still have to do your job and attack a ball. 

My issue is that, with a strict man to man system, I think it is easier to score cheaply from a corner. Enrique was flat footed, granted, but given he was starting goal side, and Hernadez came forwards and out, and given Hernandez presumably knew where the corner was supposed to be going, where Enrique was reacting to Hernandez, is it not inevitable that Enrique is second to that ball? If so, United have emptied out the most dangerous area, dropped a ball in there and had a good finisher beat his man there. Blame Enrique, fine, but for me there are areas that merit defending from a corner even if there is no player there.

You obviously study the game intently - do you not think we leave very inviting spaces from set plays?
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Offline Uninformed

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2013, 09:46:44 am »
Unfortunately we'll never know how easily we could have won that game.

Kagawa and Nani hadn't played for ages and were totally off the boil. Giggs (39) and Jones (an over-rated CB) were the midfield 2. 3 of the back 4 hadn't played for months.

If we had sent out:

---------------Migs

Hendo--Ilori--Toure/Sakho--Enrique

---------------Lucas

---------Suso*-------Alberto

Sterling------Sturridge----Suarez

and told them to see if they could be the first club in history to get 100% possession, I reckon we would have dicked all over that lot. *Can Suso be recalled - he's our form midfielder at the moment!

The only thing i'm happy about is the fact that it was the worst Manure team I have ever witnessed.

Offline OperationIvy

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2013, 10:11:27 am »

As for the game, three things stand out for me. The first being how Enrique fucks up so much of our play.

Second how weak our midfield is, too many games or periods in games where we get totally overrun.

Finally our attacking play is far too greedy. Suarez, sturridge etc all miss obvious
Passes through greed. It costs us dearly.

We need better players to start.

I think all 3 reasons you have mentioned are so true and why we still have not scored in the second half of a game yet.