Author Topic: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool  (Read 19593 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #80 on: October 3, 2013, 12:56:26 am »
I think you're, with all due respect, presenting your ex post facto analysis as reality. What happens next is NOT what each player knows at the time he makes a decision.

All in all, I believe you're unfairly and inaccurately assigning fault or causal significance to Lucas's decision in that instance for Sunderland's goal. And, to put it bluntly, it is irrelevant what the 'correct' answer is theoretically or abstractly regarding how many yards off a 'defender' should be when 'pressing in the defending third. In context, and without foreknowledge of what would transpire later, but knowledge of the tendencies of his team-mates, Lucas did, ex ante, basically the right thing.


You grasp of English and your articulation of it is impressive. Your grasp of Football, though, less so. Sorry. Ki had one intention when he got the ball in that position and he had three options. Dribble, shoot or pass. Regardless of which option he chose, closing him down puts his eyes on the ball and forces him to reassess his options or to change his first decision. That's why "Pressure" is the first principle of defence. It's not there to win the ball back first. It's there to force the 1st attacker to get his eyes on the ball and not see his options in front of him, then to force him to turn, and at any time in between, if the percentages favour it, tackle it away from him. No matter how you wish to twist my assertions with flowery language, I've already stated my case - that goal was a combination of 3 or 4 errors which all combined to allow the original shot to be made which directly led to the goal. If any one of those errors was corrected, the goal probably doesn't happen. This is football. This is why we coach it. This is why we study game film the Monday/Tuesday after the game, and this is what drives our future sessions - to correct errors that were easily corrected in the first place. 5 yards is too far away at the top level. If you think it's not, fair play to you. There's a reason Barca and now Bayern developed brilliant teams, and it is because of the intensity of their pressure as much as the quality of their passing. Now if anyone wants to disagree with my assertion that Lucas could have been closer, that Gerrard could have taken a better angle of cover, that Henderson could have marked Giaccherini, and that Moses could possibly have done better to get behind the ball, they're perfectly entitled to. Give reasons as to WHY Lucas was correctly positioned at 5 yards away. Give reasons as to WHY Gerrard didn't have to cover at a better angle. Give reasons as to WHY Henderson didn't have to mark Giaccherini. But don't hide behind "ex-post-facto-bisto" language tricks. Show me why you think I'm wrong. I'll be happy to learn something new. 
Better looking than Samie.

Offline alvaro

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,173
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #81 on: October 3, 2013, 01:22:24 am »
POP, what about Mignolet? Did he do the best he could?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #82 on: October 3, 2013, 01:35:07 am »
POP, what about Mignolet? Did he do the best he could?

To me, he looked unsighted until the last second, and had to change his position. It looked from behind like he though the ball would swerve around Skrtel, and not through his legs. Because of that, he had no chance to adjust his feet and dive forward - he basically made a reaction save, and did what he could.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline alvaro

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,173
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #83 on: October 3, 2013, 02:28:07 am »
To me, he looked unsighted until the last second, and had to change his position. It looked from behind like he though the ball would swerve around Skrtel, and not through his legs. Because of that, he had no chance to adjust his feet and dive forward - he basically made a reaction save, and did what he could.

Ok, I get it.

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #84 on: October 3, 2013, 06:35:44 am »
You grasp of English and your articulation of it is impressive. Your grasp of Football, though, less so. Sorry. Ki had one intention when he got the ball in that position and he had three options. Dribble, shoot or pass. Regardless of which option he chose, closing him down puts his eyes on the ball and forces him to reassess his options or to change his first decision. That's why "Pressure" is the first principle of defence. It's not there to win the ball back first. It's there to force the 1st attacker to get his eyes on the ball and not see his options in front of him, then to force him to turn, and at any time in between, if the percentages favour it, tackle it away from him. No matter how you wish to twist my assertions with flowery language, I've already stated my case - that goal was a combination of 3 or 4 errors which all combined to allow the original shot to be made which directly led to the goal. If any one of those errors was corrected, the goal probably doesn't happen. This is football. This is why we coach it. This is why we study game film the Monday/Tuesday after the game, and this is what drives our future sessions - to correct errors that were easily corrected in the first place. 5 yards is too far away at the top level. If you think it's not, fair play to you. There's a reason Barca and now Bayern developed brilliant teams, and it is because of the intensity of their pressure as much as the quality of their passing. Now if anyone wants to disagree with my assertion that Lucas could have been closer, that Gerrard could have taken a better angle of cover, that Henderson could have marked Giaccherini, and that Moses could possibly have done better to get behind the ball, they're perfectly entitled to. Give reasons as to WHY Lucas was correctly positioned at 5 yards away. Give reasons as to WHY Gerrard didn't have to cover at a better angle. Give reasons as to WHY Henderson didn't have to mark Giaccherini. But don't hide behind "ex-post-facto-bisto" language tricks. Show me why you think I'm wrong. I'll be happy to learn something new.

In all honesty, I am singularly interested in Lucas's contribution to Sunderland's goal.

Ideally, even before the fact, Lucas ought to have been a bit closer to Ki, and ought not to have been so easily fooled by Ki's 'fake' to his (Ki's) left. In fact, I think that the latter was his gravest error. If he doesn't go for that (it wasn't THAT good of a 'fake') he would have been in a much better position to react a bit more aggressively to Ki's ultimate move.

In all candor, I thought Lucas was too slow to change direction and recover from his having "bought" Ki's 'fake'.

There, hopefully in less flowery language. 1-3 yards (the ideal pressure defense distance) or 5 yards away (his actual distance), had he not over-committed to his right (LL's right) he'd have been much more likely to nip that move by Ki and shot, etc. in the bud.

Having rewatched the incident a number of times: Lucas reacts to Giacherini's run (Webb is actually also behind Lucas, in the same area as Giacherini enters). Gerrard, having tracked a run and effectively handed it off to Sakho, nonchalantly half-recovers and sorta maintains shape, but not really. Henderson really does sweet eff-all in response to Giacherini's move. He effectively doesn't move more than 1 yard from his original position when the pass arrives at Ki's feet. Ki deftly switches from possibly attempting the through pass to Giacherini to attacking to his right (Lucas' left). The gap between Lucas and Gerrard has not been closed by much by that time. Lucas in practice hands off responsibility for pressuring Ki to Gerrard. The latter, upon realizing that Ki is about to shoot, belatedly attempts to close the distance and to stick a leg out to possibly block Ki's shot. He fully extends his leg after the ball is already past him. Skrtel who, by now, has finally moved up to be in line with Sakho and Toure (both of whom are marking Sunderland players) reacts to the shot by making what can only be described as a comical attempt to block it with his body and/or legs. The ball goes right through him, having bounced once, and then bounces again about 2 yards away from Mignolet. Skrtel's comical attempt to block a shot right at him has left him on the ground. He obviously cannot track Giacherini. The latter, unimpeded and untouched, follows up Ki's shot, picks up the rebound and deftly puts it to Mignolet's left and into the goal.

Ranking of 'fault' in terms of importance:

Skrtel (2)
Gerrard
Lucas
Mignolet

Sequence of "fault":

Lucas
Gerrard
Skrtel
Mignolet
Skrtel

The only ones who have legitimate 'excuses' are Lucas and Mignolet. Gerrard is slow to react.

Skrtel was:

1. Slow to get up in line with Sakho and Toure in the early buildup (it worked backwards for Sunderland) of the move
2. Incompetent in blocking Ki's shot
3. Unable (because of 2) to cover Giacherini or
4. Unable to react to the rebound off Mignolet of Ki's shot.

Conclusion: Skrtel messed up. He also managed to block the vision of Mignolet.
« Last Edit: October 3, 2013, 10:37:41 pm by GrkStav »
Ludi Circenses!

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #85 on: October 3, 2013, 06:36:38 am »
See, I lose respect for people when they put words in my mouth. So I will reassert my claim that I didn't know Cpt. Reina's point, because whether JW33 quoted it or not - I DIDN'T SEE IT.

Hope that clears things up.

Alright, alright, I apologize. I'll delete. That was probably uncalled for and unfair of me.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline PaulF

  • https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/paulfelce
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,802
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #86 on: October 4, 2013, 12:41:55 am »
If Pressure is the first principle of defence, what's second and third? I'm sure I used to know this quite a long time ago!
Pop which UEFA licence were you referring to earlier A,B or Pro?  That's quite some dedication. It's changed a lot since I did my level 1/2 about 15 years back.  I know level 1 is a lot less demanding now, but back then just level 2 was a lot of commitment of time and money the UEFA licences , I suspect, are only in the reach of at least semi-pros.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #87 on: October 4, 2013, 12:52:22 am »
If Pressure is the first principle of defence, what's second and third? I'm sure I used to know this quite a long time ago!
Pop which UEFA licence were you referring to earlier A,B or Pro?  That's quite some dedication. It's changed a lot since I did my level 1/2 about 15 years back.  I know level 1 is a lot less demanding now, but back then just level 2 was a lot of commitment of time and money the UEFA licences , I suspect, are only in the reach of at least semi-pros.

B Licence. A next year. Took a long time and a lot of money to get them.

And "Cover, Balance, Consolidation, Communication and Control" are the other principles :D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #88 on: October 4, 2013, 01:23:49 am »
In all honesty, I am singularly interested in Lucas's contribution to Sunderland's goal.

Ideally, even before the fact, Lucas ought to have been a bit closer to Ki, and ought not to have been so easily fooled by Ki's 'fake' to his (Ki's) left. In fact, I think that the latter was his gravest error. If he doesn't go for that (it wasn't THAT good of a 'fake') he would have been in a much better position to react a bit more aggressively to Ki's ultimate move.

In all candor, I thought Lucas was too slow to change direction and recover from his having "bought" Ki's 'fake'.

There, hopefully in less flowery language. 1-3 yards (the ideal pressure defense distance) or 5 yards away (his actual distance), had he not over-committed to his right (LL's right) he'd have been much more likely to nip that move by Ki and shot, etc. in the bud.

Having rewatched the incident a number of times: Lucas reacts to Giacherini's run (Webb is actually also behind Lucas, in the same area as Giacherini enters). Gerrard, having tracked a run and effectively handed it off to Sakho, nonchalantly half-recovers and sorta maintains shape, but not really. Henderson really does sweet eff-all in response to Giacherini's move. He effectively doesn't move more than 1 yard from his original position when the pass arrives at Ki's feet. Ki deftly switches from possibly attempting the through pass to Giacherini to attacking to his right (Lucas' left). The gap between Lucas and Gerrard has not been closed by much by that time. Lucas in practice hands off responsibility for pressuring Ki to Gerrard. The latter, upon realizing that Ki is about to shoot, belatedly attempts to close the distance and to stick a leg out to possibly block Ki's shot. He fully extends his leg after the ball is already past him. Skrtel who, by now, has finally moved up to be in line with Sakho and Toure (both of whom are marking Sunderland players) reacts to the shot by making what can only be described as a comical attempt to block it with his body and/or legs. The ball goes right through him, having bounced once, and then bounces again about 2 yards away from Mignolet. Skrtel's comical attempt to block a shot right at him has left him on the ground. He obviously cannot track Giacherini. The latter, unimpeded and untouched, follows up Ki's shot, picks up the rebound and deftly puts it to Mignolet's left and into the goal.

Ranking of 'fault' in terms of importance:

Skrtel (2)
Gerrard
Lucas
Mignolet

Sequence of "fault":

Lucas
Gerrard
Skrtel
Mignolet
Skrtel

The only ones who have legitimate 'excuses' are Lucas and Mignolet. Gerrard is slow to react.

Skrtel was:

1. Slow to get up in line with Sakho and Toure in the early buildup (it worked backwards for Sunderland) of the move
2. Incompetent in blocking Ki's shot
3. Unable (because of 2) to cover Giacherini or
4. Unable to react to the rebound off Mignolet of Ki's shot.

Conclusion: Skrtel messed up. He also managed to block the vision of Mignolet.

Fucking hell fire. Lucas doesn't get pressure on the first attacker, he's the first defender and he doesn't do his job. Players fuck up every minute of every game. Don't fucking cry about it. First basic error and the easiest one to rectify is not getting to that ball fucking quick enough when your the closest. End of.

Offline GrkStav

  • Has a statuette of Lucas on the bonnet of his car which he polishes lovingly with Lucas Brasso. Glen Johnson's biggest fan. Doesn't have a "fucken clue" where L4 is
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,981
  • Not very good at 'banter'.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #89 on: October 4, 2013, 03:04:34 am »
Fucking hell fire. Lucas doesn't get pressure on the first attacker, he's the first defender and he doesn't do his job. Players fuck up every minute of every game. Don't fucking cry about it. First basic error and the easiest one to rectify is not getting to that ball fucking quick enough when your the closest. End of.

It's never "end of", but fair enough. That is your analysis. It's not always or necessarily the first person at fault who has the greatest impact.

Btw, since I only watched the match on T.V. I couldn't tell (the network showed a replay of the previous shot at the time) how, from a goal-kick, Sunderland ended up with the ball in our defensive third. If we're really going to assign "fault" to the first person who effed up, I bet it would go to whoever surrendered possession to Sunderland in the first place and in our defensive third to boot.

Those of you who saw the game live and in person, what actually transpired? Mignolet played it short to Enrique and he misplaced the second pass, or what?
Ludi Circenses!

Offline PaulF

  • https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/paulfelce
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,802
  • Nothing feels as good as fat tastes.
Re: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool
« Reply #90 on: October 4, 2013, 10:32:08 am »
B Licence. A next year. Took a long time and a lot of money to get them.

And "Cover, Balance, Consolidation, Communication and Control" are the other principles :D

Good luck with the 'A'.  I overheard a couple of guys last night, who I can only assume are coaching kids.  I won't elaborate, but thank the maker we have guys like you who really get what it's all about.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.