Author Topic: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.  (Read 49894 times)

Offline Twelfth Man

  • Rhianna fan. my arse! Someone fill me in. Any takers? :) We are the fabulous CFC...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,012
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #160 on: September 24, 2013, 08:36:10 am »
Haven't watched the game again, but my reaction to that would be that we had an uneven work load. In other words, something forced Lucas and Gerrard to cover more ground than they should have to cover.
For me that was not having the natural width, Johnson and Enrique provide. I keep repeating it but the distance between Moses and Sakho and Toure and Aspas was too much, it meant that the ball was easily recycled by them when it went forward to either. This also had the effect of pinning Gerrard and Lucas back, the balance of the team was completely off, because the full-backs could not get tight to our wide attackers. If they did, we would have pushed them back, and Gerrard/Lucas/Hendo would all be pressing and playing further up the pitch where they should be, particularly at home against a team like Soton.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2013, 08:48:08 am »
Like quite a few people, I'm baffled as to why we didn't seriously pursue Eriksen early in the window but spent a sizeable amount on players of lower quality - a reserves or 2nd league player (Alberto) and Aspas. Also spent getting Ilori who is one for the future but doesn't have a look in right now, should've just taken 1 CB and Toure if funds were lacking.

Exactly - we could have gotten an option on Ilori for example. It is also galling to me that Aspas cost only about 3M less than ericksen and that Ericksen is currently the best performing signing of all the players whom Spurs signed during the window despite being the 2nd cheapest.

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #162 on: September 24, 2013, 08:52:09 am »
That too, with all the modern gadgets our fitness staff has available to them how can we have a player in our team who is strolling around the pitch every last 20 min in every game? Ultimately it's Brendan's responsibility. Not the mention Stevie's refusal to sprint anytime during the game - I'm guessing he' s trying to preserve his energy in order to last 90 min somehow. This is a huge issue for our team as one has to wonder how far can we go having two players in our engine room who fail to meet the fitness standard of PL football.

If Gerrard is truly incapable of that, then it is time for his retirement, with all due respect to him. We cannot afford to have the 2nd highest wage earner on our squad and the captain to boot, not coming up to the basic physical requirements of his position. The captain cannot be a passenger and a burden on the rest of the team.

Meanwhile if Lucas is performing well in the firswt half but petering off in the second, then there is something seriously wrong with his fitness or constitution and that is something the technical physio people need to look into sharpish.

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,053
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #163 on: September 24, 2013, 09:10:00 am »
We are trying to play a short passing Barcelona style game, with essentially Lucas aside a British midfield. It is not going to work. You can get away with it, when we take the game to the opposition, the full-backs bomb forward, Coutinho/Suarez weave their magic, but not when the opposition is well organised, and good at pressing the midfield area and negating Luis/Phil and the full-backs pushing on. I reckon you could partner Yaya Toure with Lucas on Saturday and we would still get pinned back, because we had zero width, with both Sakho and Toure reluctant to get forward and tight with our attackers. We left huge gaps down the flanks that Soton ceaselessly attacked down and meant our midfield was forever back-peddling, or forced to ping it long.

For similar reasons, Villas Boas has just replaced a more British midfield (Huddlestone, Parker, Jenas) with a continental one (Dembele, Paulinho, Capoue, Eriksen). That's the area he's done a root-and-branch reform on. Rodgers actually tried this last summer with the Allen and Sahin signings before we reverted back to type. While Allen's British he's very much a continental style player who was brought up at Swansea to play a possession game.

We need to find room for Allen in the team and blend a midfield around him out of what we have now if we want to keep on trying a possession game.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Online Draex

  • Geek God of Typing Letters. Hugo unleashes Jaws? Purveyor of fuel products in Kent.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,693
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #164 on: September 24, 2013, 09:25:31 am »
For similar reasons, Villas Boas has just replaced a more British midfield (Huddlestone, Parker, Jenas) with a continental one (Dembele, Paulinho, Capoue, Eriksen). That's the area he's done a root-and-branch reform on. Rodgers actually tried this last summer with the Allen and Sahin signings before we reverted back to type. While Allen's British he's very much a continental style player who was brought up at Swansea to play a possession game.

We need to find room for Allen in the team and blend a midfield around him out of what we have now if we want to keep on trying a possession game.

The key is what Allen does when he recieves the ball - he doesn't need a second touch to control the ball, his recievement and movement is all 1 fluid motion, that extra second he gains by this is vital in keeping possession moving and keeping the pressure off. A team cannot keep up pressing you if you are 1 touch passing for a solid 20minutes. Gerrard/Henderson/Lucas all dwell on the ball a lot - it slows our play and it gives the opposition time to cut off angles.. Alberto/Allen all recieve and move the ball (or move with the ball) far quicker and they also move to recieve the ball well so there are always out options.

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2013, 09:29:42 am »
The key is what Allen does when he recieves the ball - he doesn't need a second touch to control the ball, his recievement and movement is all 1 fluid motion, that extra second he gains by this is vital in keeping possession moving and keeping the pressure off. A team cannot keep up pressing you if you are 1 touch passing for a solid 20minutes. Gerrard/Henderson/Lucas all dwell on the ball a lot - it slows our play and it gives the opposition time to cut off angles.. Alberto/Allen all recieve and move the ball (or move with the ball) far quicker and they also move to recieve the ball well so there are always out options.

Lucas doesnt actually dwell on the ball from my recollection though - he only does not pass mmediately if there is no one in front of him to pass to.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,359
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2013, 09:33:08 am »
I can't say I am that informed about tactics but can I asked what is needed for us to maybe play passes out wide and particularly into the channels? It seems that with Southampton playing a high line and Sturridge and Aspas being good at that why we didn't get them into those positions and play balls into the channels for them to run onto?

Can this not be done by a long pass? Do we need to be higher up the field to do that? Is it because the likes of Gerrard were not able to shake off the pressing to be able to get their head up and do that?

Online Draex

  • Geek God of Typing Letters. Hugo unleashes Jaws? Purveyor of fuel products in Kent.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,693
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2013, 09:36:20 am »
Lucas doesnt actually dwell on the ball from my recollection though - he only does not pass mmediately if there is no one in front of him to pass to.

He never used to, does a fair bit more this season I've noticed. You are probably right it's lack of movement ahead and Gerrard the statue next to him.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #168 on: September 24, 2013, 09:37:01 am »
First time I've watched us properly in a while (for one reason or another) and right from the off I almost didn't recognise this team as Liverpool FC. Almost.

I'm not even talking about the almost pathological mental weakness - more of that later - but the complete absence of any sort of fluidity expected of a top level professional football team, never mind one that is repeatedly (ad nauseam) touted as aspiring to a Catalan-flavoured passing machine. Death by football? There's two sides to that coin, Brendan. We saw the folly of that claim against Swansea, who are ever-increasingly looking like the real deal of that model (and at a fraction of the cost, Mr Henry) as they then repeated again 4 days later in Spain.

A surprisingly good start to the season has been set back but as a few posters have already mentioned, this defeat was about much more than the mere loss of 3 points. It's one thing for a certain section of support to get carried away prematurely by the league table, but when the previous 4 final whistles are greeted more with relief, it's criminal that the same complacent attitude is adopted by the manager and players.

I'm not going to dwell on Rodgers but he has to carry a lot of the blame. Right from the off, we all knew it. It was a bizarre and indefensible (literally as it turned out) lineup that would have even given cold sweats to Claudio Ranieri. To me, it suggested his judgment was clouded with the taste of his Barclays Manager of the Month champagne. Complacency and almost certainly ego. Both attributes he's likely picked up from his mentor, the one currently publicly bemoaning that his £200m-side is made up of pub players in need of therapy.

With the manager having hamstrung the side before a ball was kicked, the players (bar a couple of exceptions) then did their utmost to show just how bad an afternoon it could get. Skrtel's mistake was pure Skrtel. Agger's lapse was pure Agger, except without the lung busting byline run and assist response we've almost come to expect of our vice-captain. But as often with CB mistakes, the core symptoms lie about 30 yards in front of them.

Talking of captaincy, the Huyton elephant in the room took another John Noakes-sized dump in the studio. A captain has to do at least one of two things on the pitch, either provide leadership, organise and motivate performances, or lead by example. Gerrard did neither and let's be brutally honest, hasn't done so for some time now. He therefore really has no business being on the pitch currently, least of all in CM. A couple of weeks off minimum is called for, with Allen (who has a lot of faith to restore in his signing) coming back in. Of course that requires serious balls from our manager to avoid the accusation that Gerrard picks himself and his position. It's not a criticism as such, there's a few predecessors that could be levelled at but at least Rodgers has the rationale to do it now and if he wants to be taken really seriously as a manager, then this is what he is paid the big bucks for.

A brief mention of our FB problems. Enrique has had a lobotomy, no doubt about it. He didn't have much grey matter to begin with. So I can't say I miss him from the starting lineup. Cissokho's injury is a real setback no doubt, particularly in tandem with Johnson's. And seriously, where the fuck was Martin Kelly? Southampton at home? Was there a more ideal opportunity to reintegrate such a quality young player at RB? Putting Toure and Sakho at FB is like having Gisele and Candice round your place one evening, and asking them to do the dishes and sort the laundry.

I've been quietly impressed with Henderson over the past 6 months. Ok ok, impressed is overegging it a bit. Reassured is a better description. But here yet again, I see those unmistakeable Kuytish qualities. Sadly not the freakishly fortunate goal-poaching ones. So much pained effort for so little output or indeed quality. A player that needs everyone else to be on top form for him to be dragged up to that level. We should aspire to better, as per Shelvey.

With Coutinho recovering from GBH at the hands of a Brummie thug (one who Rodgers was overruled from signing), and Sturridge clearly as fit as a butcher's wife as opposed to his dog, the need for Suarez' return was almost palpable. That said, we're still a one-man team on this evidence. Our Brazilian playmaker has no cover. Alberto is very talented by all accounts but is not ready at this level yet. Passing up Eriksen was stupid, let's be honest, particularly when Rodgers loaned out Suso and spent £8m on Aspas, a player who even on early evidence looks to be as useful and effective as an unfortunate hybrid of Nabil El Zhar and David Ngog.

So where does that leave us? Passing this off as a "temporary glitch" would be a big mistake. There are fundamental problems still to be fixed, and those expecting our bitey Uruguyan to instantly reintroduce himself as a badge-kissing goal machine may be disappointed. Rodgers has shown some nous in seeing Kolo as a relatively cheap voice of vast experience and example. But he sorely needs to repeat that in January with Xabi, before Juve turn his head. Three more years of an older but smarter Alonso pulling strings in our midfield should not even need thinking about, less so in our current midfield predicament. For one, Lucas would break out his capoeira routine if it came to pass.

All of which leads us back to mentality. That was supposed to have been addressed. No evidence for that so far after over a year. It appears weaker than ever. Never mind the Chimp Complex, Dr Steve "Supposed Miracle Worker" Peters could easily put his one-day-a-week Melwood experience to some actual use and write a follow-up called the Deer Reflex. And never mind the players, by the looks of it the manager could do with regular one-on-one sessions himself.
 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:10:53 am by rossipersiempre »
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Online Draex

  • Geek God of Typing Letters. Hugo unleashes Jaws? Purveyor of fuel products in Kent.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,693
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #169 on: September 24, 2013, 09:37:18 am »
I can't say I am that informed about tactics but can I asked what is needed for us to maybe play passes out wide and particularly into the channels? It seems that with Southampton playing a high line and Sturridge and Aspas being good at that why we didn't get them into those positions and play balls into the channels for them to run onto?

Can this not be done by a long pass? Do we need to be higher up the field to do that? Is it because the likes of Gerrard were not able to shake off the pressing to be able to get their head up and do that?

Sturridge can't run, check a video of him last season v's this season he looks like he has divers boots on and is running in treacle in the past few games.

Offline Believe

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,447
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #170 on: September 24, 2013, 09:39:28 am »
Exactly - we could have gotten an option on Ilori for example. It is also galling to me that Aspas cost only about 3M less than ericksen and that Ericksen is currently the best performing signing of all the players whom Spurs signed during the window despite being the 2nd cheapest.

If we had signed Eriksen, how do you keep either him or Coutinho on the bench? He'd also block Suso when he comes back from loan. We also scouted him extensively before we made a decision not to go in for him - your analysis is based on 3 games.

Wish people would stop using Eriksen as a stick to beat BR with.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #171 on: September 24, 2013, 09:51:51 am »
If we had signed Eriksen, how do you keep either him or Coutinho on the bench? He'd also block Suso when he comes back from loan. We also scouted him extensively before we made a decision not to go in for him - your analysis is based on 3 games.

Wish people would stop using Eriksen as a stick to beat BR with.
Sorry but passing up Eriksen (who was keen to sign incidentally when Dortmund opted for Mikihyran) AND loaning out Suso deserves a kick in the balls.

Much harder than the one poor Coutinho received.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #172 on: September 24, 2013, 09:56:00 am »
If we had signed Eriksen, how do you keep either him or Coutinho on the bench? He'd also block Suso when he comes back from loan. We also scouted him extensively before we made a decision not to go in for him - your analysis is based on 3 games.

Wish people would stop using Eriksen as a stick to beat BR with.

Sorry - are you saying that we should not sign a good player who would improve our first team at a reasonable price just because it may block the progress of Suso who may or may not make it in the end? If that is the case, then I have to disagree. The purpose is to improve the team. If that means benching or selling Coutinho for a better player, then so be it. If it means blocking the progress of Suso to put in a better player than him, then so be it.

Your argument anyway is based on an assumption that they cannot play together in the same team and at the same time. Why not?
 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:57:55 am by subroc »

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #173 on: September 24, 2013, 09:57:25 am »

Offline jaffod

  • Living a double life as Billy Bunter after midnight. Has until July 3rd to figure out what from his womans clothing range to wear.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,566
  • Common beermat and towel thief.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #174 on: September 24, 2013, 10:00:29 am »
I normally stay out of this thread because it's a little bit too high-brow for me, all the technical jargon and dissection of the tiniest passages of play where player X failed to be in the required position leaves me a little bit cold.
 This game is different though because I cannot remember a gamer where I feel a Liverpool manager, in my humble opinion I might add, got the tactics so spectacularly wrong. It was our first real test of the season, to see how we responded to dropping points for the first time at Swansea, and we failed miserably. It is nothing new as we have shown a weak mentality time and again over the years but it is compounded by the fact that every department of the team is functioning below par at the moment. We basically played low-risk, un-ambitious football that none of the other supposedly top sides would have done given the opposition.
 A lot was made of BR's decision to pick 4 CB's but that can be excused given the injuries to so many of our full-back's and the fact Enrique is also nursing an injury. What baffles me is that we sat so deep given that Gerrard and Lucas are probably the slowest pair of holding mid's in the PL and Sturridge and Moses are carrying an injury and not match fit respectively.
 Like I say I don't purport to be a tactical genius but surely it makes more sense to play further up the pitch so the mid's don't have to cover as much ground and the forwards aren't receiving the ball 50 or 60 yards from goal? I can understand the reasoning for playing so deep against the likes of Henry and Torres in their prime where a ball over the top into space can leave you chasing shadows but against Southampton it seems like madness. I know BR wants to play out from the back but we don't have the players who are capable and comfortable to do so and it just left the forwards getting frustrated and dropping further and further as southampton compressed the play. Sturridge's body language was telling I feel, far too much of the old double-teapot for my liking but then again i don't think he touched the ball more than once in the opening half hour.
 Many in the after-match thread lamented the loss of our only 2 creative players, Coutinho and Suarez. Now this raises another issue for me because if Henderson isn't considered creative then I fail to see what his role is in the team. Surely if your playing a 4-2-3-1 then all three of the '3' have to be creative? Being able to run all day doesn't cut it, you might as well sign Mo Farrah. The midfield appears to be the most dysfunctional area of the team and seeing as Gerrard's legs are becoming more and more leaden I would like to see him pushed up behind Sturridge and relieved of some of his defensive duties. Henderson and Allen can compete for a place alongside Lucas but I worry Lucas and Allen are too similar and Henderson will just turn into Jamie Redknapp Mk2 playing safe 10 yard passes sideways and backwards.
 It's difficult to find any positives from the performance other than Mignolet's excellent shot-stopping and Toure's desire. Plenty of our players should be looking to take a leaf out of his book, a proven winner who still wants to win as opposed to under-achievers who didn't look particularly bothered as we ambled to inevitable defeat.
 Suarez's return can't come quick enough although it pains me to say it. Aspas is still finding his feet and Sterling continues to frustrate with his lack of consistency and end product. I actually wanted him to start but his performance when he came on was dismal but he wasn't alone there. Still haven't seen enough of Luis Alberto to form an opinion but he just looks like another safety-first player up to now.
 There is massive room for improvement in this team and the football we have played this season is some of the poorest I can remember for a long, long time. BR really needs to start earning his corn because 15 months into his tenure is long enough to have them playing how he wants them to. We have 2 games coming up against the worst sides in the league and anything less than 6 points will be another massive failure in my opinion, let's hope we see the right response starting at Sunderland this weekend.

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #175 on: September 24, 2013, 10:07:54 am »
The midfield appears to be the most dysfunctional area of the team and seeing as Gerrard's legs are becoming more and more leaden I would like to see him pushed up behind Sturridge and relieved of some of his defensive duties. Henderson and Allen can compete for a place alongside Lucas but I worry Lucas and Allen are too similar and Henderson will just turn into Jamie Redknapp Mk2 playing safe 10 yard passes sideways and backwards.

When a midfielder loses his ability to run at the speed and duration that he needs to in order to perform at the level of the relevant competition, it is time to quit. That was exactly what happened to Di Stefano. One of the world's greatest ever players and the leader of the band in Real Madrid's first legendary team, but the moment he lost his running legs, he was finished.

The question is - is this what has happened to our captain? If he is exhausted, then he ahs to take stock and think about quitting the national team in order to extend his career. But if it is more serious than that, then hard decisions will have to be made.


Offline jaffod

  • Living a double life as Billy Bunter after midnight. Has until July 3rd to figure out what from his womans clothing range to wear.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,566
  • Common beermat and towel thief.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #176 on: September 24, 2013, 10:14:50 am »
When a midfielder loses his ability to run at the speed and duration that he needs to in order to perform at the level of the relevant competition, it is time to quit. That was exactly what happened to Di Stefano. One of the world's greatest ever players and the leader of the band in Real Madrid's first legendary team, but the moment he lost his running legs, he was finished.

The question is - is this what has happened to our captain? If he is exhausted, then he ahs to take stock and think about quitting the national team in order to extend his career. But if it is more serious than that, then hard decisions will have to be made.



I'm not sure it's time to quit for Steven but I do agree we need to find a role where he can be creative and conserve energy when we don't have the ball. Maybe rest him for games against the smaller sides at home when we have more options.
 The England stuff is futile given there's a World cup in Brazil next year, it just ain't going to happen.

Offline Believe

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,447
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #177 on: September 24, 2013, 10:18:41 am »
Sorry - are you saying that we should not sign a good player who would improve our first team at a reasonable price just because it may block the progress of Suso who may or may not make it in the end? If that is the case, then I have to disagree. The purpose is to improve the team. If that means benching or selling Coutinho for a better player, then so be it. If it means blocking the progress of Suso to put in a better player than him, then so be it.

Your argument anyway is based on an assumption that they cannot play together in the same team and at the same time. Why not?

What I'm saying is that this isn't Football Manager, we have limited resources and OUR SCOUTING DEPARTMENT made the call not to get him in - so that's good enough for me over and above the 'expert' analysis from your good self and Rossisiempre.

As before, your analysis is based on 3 games - 2 in the league vs. Norwich and Cardiff and one vs. Tromso.


Offline Believe

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,447
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #178 on: September 24, 2013, 10:22:16 am »
Sorry but passing up Eriksen (who was keen to sign incidentally when Dortmund opted for Mikihyran) AND loaning out Suso deserves a kick in the balls.

Much harder than the one poor Coutinho received.

Suso had to go on loan - he's too good for the bench/ U21 league. He'll come back ready for the first team in my opinion.

Online spider-neil

  • Can watch 30 games in a day. He's not Spidey - he's Sway!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,188
  • does whatever a spider can, spins a web any size
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #179 on: September 24, 2013, 10:22:41 am »
We scouted Eriksen and Alberto and went for Alberto. We had time of time and opportunity to sign Eriksen and passed.

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #180 on: September 24, 2013, 10:34:13 am »


;D

I think you are too pessimistic, but that post still made me smile.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #181 on: September 24, 2013, 10:34:30 am »
We scouted Eriksen and Alberto and went for Alberto. We had time of time and opportunity to sign Eriksen and passed.
Which begs the question, if Rodgers et al had gone the other way, would you have expected Eriksen to have started against Southampton?

Alberto is clearly "one for the future" just as Suso is tagged with that label. The problem being is that we're currently playing in the present. Eriksen did not break the bank on either fee or wages and is clearly a "present" player, a senior international who is still just 21. A very talented and creative player who stalled at Ajax and desperately needed a fresh start a la Coutinho and Sturridge. Not looking a smart decision, less so after Coutinho is specifically targeted and eventually taken out.

If it was done purely for budget reasons, fair enough, but wast...sorry, spending £8m (shudder) on Aspas doesn't exactly support that theory does it?
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Believe

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,447
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #182 on: September 24, 2013, 10:39:48 am »

If it was done purely for budget reasons, fair enough, but wast...sorry, spending £8m (shudder) on Aspas doesn't exactly support that theory does it?

We should give the lad more than 5 league games before making judgments. Not every player from a different league / country slots in seamlessly. There's a good player there and I think he'll prove good value given time.

Online spider-neil

  • Can watch 30 games in a day. He's not Spidey - he's Sway!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,188
  • does whatever a spider can, spins a web any size
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #183 on: September 24, 2013, 10:42:33 am »
Which begs the question, if Rodgers et al had gone the other way, would you have expected Eriksen to have started against Southampton?

Alberto is clearly "one for the future" just as Suso is tagged with that label. The problem being is that we're currently playing in the present. Eriksen did not break the bank on either fee or wages and is clearly a "present" player, a senior international who is still just 21. A very talented and creative player who stalled at Ajax and desperately needed a fresh start a la Coutinho and Sturridge. Not looking a smart decision, less so after Coutinho is specifically targeted and eventually taken out.

If it was done purely for budget reasons, fair enough, but wast...sorry, spending £8m (shudder) on Aspas doesn't exactly support that theory does it?

I think we feel Alberto's ceiling is higher than Eriksen's. For whatever Rodgers didn't want to start with Alberto but I still think that has no bearing on whether we rate Eriksen as a better player than Alberto. It's also worth bearing in mind we have Allen and Suso who is on loan. We should be eager to see what Alberto can do rather than pine after Eriksen.

As for Aspas, we are 5 games into a 38 game season.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #184 on: September 24, 2013, 10:56:33 am »
I think we feel Alberto's ceiling is higher than Eriksen's. For whatever Rodgers didn't want to start with Alberto but I still think that has no bearing on whether we rate Eriksen as a better player than Alberto. It's also worth bearing in mind we have Allen and Suso who is on loan. We should be eager to see what Alberto can do rather than pine after Eriksen.

As for Aspas, we are 5 games into a 38 game season.
That's quite a punt considering what a 18-20 year old Eriksen already demonstrated at Champions League and international level (before the usual stuff gets said about the relative shiteness of the Eredivisie).

You say "for whatever reason" but I still can't think of any logical reason why Alberto was benched and Aspas played in that role. Ad yes, it's all very PC to say early days on Aspas but it's fairly apparent he has neither the physicality or quality (either technical ability or movement) to flourish in the PL. He may turn that round but with some players, it's right there glaringly obvious from the outset. God knows we've seen more than enough of those these past few years. And yet he cost £8m and has consistently got the manager's nod in the first team.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #185 on: September 24, 2013, 11:02:01 am »
I'll put it one last way...

We passed up Eriksen. We then loaned out Suso supposedly to enhance his development. And then basically signed another Suso in Alberto.

If someone can explain the logic there, go right ahead.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #186 on: September 24, 2013, 11:02:12 am »
First time I've watched us properly in a while (for one reason or another) and right from the off I almost didn't recognise this team as Liverpool FC. Almost.

I'm not even talking about the almost pathological mental weakness - more of that later - but the complete absence of any sort of fluidity expected of a top level professional football team, never mind one that is repeatedly (ad nauseam) touted as aspiring to a Catalan-flavoured passing machine. Death by football? There's two sides to that coin, Brendan. We saw the folly of that claim against Swansea, who are ever-increasingly looking like the real deal of that model (and at a fraction of the cost, Mr Henry) as they then repeated again 4 days later in Spain.

A surprisingly good start to the season has been set back but as a few posters have already mentioned, this defeat was about much more than the mere loss of 3 points. It's one thing for a certain section of support to get carried away prematurely by the league table, but when the previous 4 final whistles are greeted more with relief, it's criminal that the same complacent attitude is adopted by the manager and players.

I'm not going to dwell on Rodgers but he has to carry a lot of the blame. Right from the off, we all knew it. It was a bizarre and indefensible (literally as it turned out) lineup that would have even given cold sweats to Claudio Ranieri. To me, it suggested his judgment was clouded with the taste of his Barclays Manager of the Month champagne. Complacency and almost certainly ego. Both attributes he's likely picked up from his mentor, the one currently publicly bemoaning that his £200m-side is made up of pub players in need of therapy.

With the manager having hamstrung the side before a ball was kicked, the players (bar a couple of exceptions) then did their utmost to show just how bad an afternoon it could get. Skrtel's mistake was pure Skrtel. Agger's lapse was pure Agger, except without the lung busting byline run and assist response we've almost come to expect of our vice-captain. But as often with CB mistakes, the core symptoms lie about 30 yards in front of them.

Talking of captaincy, the Huyton elephant in the room took another John Noakes-sized dump in the studio. A captain has to do at least one of two things on the pitch, either provide leadership, organise and motivate performances, or lead by example. Gerrard did neither and let's be brutally honest, hasn't done so for some time now. He therefore really has no business being on the pitch currently, least of all in CM. A couple of weeks off minimum is called for, with Allen (who has a lot of faith to restore in his signing) coming back in. Of course that requires serious balls from our manager to avoid the accusation that Gerrard picks himself and his position. It's not a criticism as such, there's a few predecessors that could be levelled at but at least Rodgers has the rationale to do it now and if he wants to be taken really seriously as a manager, then this is what he is paid the big bucks for.

A brief mention of our FB problems. Enrique has had a lobotomy, no doubt about it. He didn't have much grey matter to begin with. So I can't say I miss him from the starting lineup. Cissokho's injury is a real setback no doubt, particularly in tandem with Johnson's. And seriously, where the fuck was Martin Kelly? Southampton at home? Was there a more ideal opportunity to reintegrate such a quality young player at RB? Putting Toure and Sakho at FB is like having Gisele and Candice round your place one evening, and asking them to do the dishes and sort the laundry.

I've been quietly impressed with Henderson over the past 6 months. Ok ok, impressed is overegging it a bit. Reassured is a better description. But here yet again, I see those unmistakeable Kuytish qualities. Sadly not the freakishly fortunate goal-poaching ones. So much pained effort for so little output or indeed quality. A player that needs everyone else to be on top form for him to be dragged up to that level. We should aspire to better, as per Shelvey.

With Coutinho recovering from GBH at the hands of a Brummie thug (one who Rodgers was overruled from signing), and Sturridge clearly as fit as a butcher's wife as opposed to his dog, the need for Suarez' return was almost palpable. That said, we're still a one-man team on this evidence. Our Brazilian playmaker has no cover. Alberto is very talented by all accounts but is not ready at this level yet. Passing up Eriksen was stupid, let's be honest, particularly when Rodgers loaned out Suso and spent £8m on Aspas, a player who even on early evidence looks to be as useful and effective as an unfortunate hybrid of Nabil El Zhar and David Ngog.

So where does that leave us? Passing this off as a "temporary glitch" would be a big mistake. There are fundamental problems still to be fixed, and those expecting our bitey Uruguyan to instantly reintroduce himself as a badge-kissing goal machine may be disappointed. Rodgers has shown some nous in seeing Kolo as a relatively cheap voice of vast experience and example. But he sorely needs to repeat that in January with Xabi, before Juve turn his head. Three more years of an older but smarter Alonso pulling strings in our midfield should not even need thinking about, less so in our current midfield predicament. For one, Lucas would break out his capoeira routine if it came to pass.

All of which leads us back to mentality. That was supposed to have been addressed. No evidence for that so far after over a year. It appears weaker than ever. Never mind the Chimp Complex, Dr Steve "Supposed Miracle Worker" Peters could easily put his one-day-a-week Melwood experience to some actual use and write a follow-up called the Deer Reflex. And never mind the players, by the looks of it the manager could do with regular one-on-one sessions himself.
 

Some Stats that back up what you said Rossi.


We are tenth for pass success rate



Tenth for percentage of possession



And Eighth for number of short passes



With Swansea ahead of us in every single category and leading the division in two of the three categories, with Martinez's Everton leading the other category. What has happened to the manager's philosophy ?
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #187 on: September 24, 2013, 11:04:16 am »
What I'm saying is that this isn't Football Manager, we have limited resources and OUR SCOUTING DEPARTMENT made the call not to get him in - so that's good enough for me over and above the 'expert' analysis from your good self and Rossisiempre.

As before, your analysis is based on 3 games - 2 in the league vs. Norwich and Cardiff and one vs. Tromso.

I admit I am not an expert. Still, just looking at it objectively, we have a player who has played in the CL, who was a regular with Ajax and who is first choice for his national team. We have another player who was last playing for Barca's B team in the Spanish 2nd division. And who only cost 5M less than the first player. And who is only slightly younger.

Even on that basis alone, it is hard to see why Alberto was so much more attractive an option to the scouts.

I also agree it has only been 3 games so far. Still early days of course. However, the immediate creative effect he has had on Spurs has been as remarkable as Coutinho's introduction for us last season:-
 
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/1852?cc=4716

He already has 1 goal and 1 assist for Spurs in 3 games. We wouldn't mind having some of that for our team, right?

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #188 on: September 24, 2013, 11:11:01 am »
Hey Rossi!  How are you?  Good to see you posting.

You're awfully harsh on Rodgers here mate.  With hindsight you can do anything.  We just played badly aided by the team selection.

I don't know if it was Alan_X or someone else who said that Rodgers may need to become familiar with his own vision again.  Clearly the positive results at the start of the season have given us a scent of top 4 so we've become results focused.  And with that comes the cagey football lacking fluidity.  I want to see us beat that 71 goal total of last season.  We aren't going to do that playing how we have in the first 5 games.

But it's a tough job being manager.  He's got to deliver results and build.  I think he needs to get back to building because in the long-term I truly believe we will have benefits.  We've got a number of good young players coming through and while the Suarez's of this world will leave if CL football is not achieved these youngsters will want to play in a good footballing side.  Look after the ball and it will look after you.

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,427
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #189 on: September 24, 2013, 11:14:57 am »
From all of the above (and I don't want to get too downbeat after a very positive start to the season) its clear the one area we are struggling in is the middle, where control is not being exerted. Alberto may fill that void, but I think the addition of a seasoned pro (like Xabi as Ross suggested) in January would make the side far more formidable for the remainder of the season until we address this position more fully in the summer. Thing is, I feel we are making progress, that different parts of the jigsaw are being put together, perhaps not quick enough for some, but overall it feels like we are going in the right direction. I can't share Ross's pessimism, but do acknowledge the righteousness of his observations.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline wah00ey

  • Gappy Gumbo, especially at the back.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,179
  • Stay away from Twitter, it's no good for anyone.
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #190 on: September 24, 2013, 11:16:56 am »
I'm not sure it's time to quit for Steven but I do agree we need to find a role where he can be creative and conserve energy when we don't have the ball. Maybe rest him for games against the smaller sides at home when we have more options.
 The England stuff is futile given there's a World cup in Brazil next year, it just ain't going to happen.
Why not swap him and Hendo for a start?  Or give him the Coutinho role while he's out?  Central midfield for us is currently too slow and laboured and I agree with others on here that it really needs shaking up.  If Sakho's as good as I think he might be then Lucas as a DM becomes less of a necessity and we could freshen things up even further in that area.
Look up "Odious" in the dictionary and Martin Samuel is the given definition.  Call me Klopphooey please.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #191 on: September 24, 2013, 11:19:00 am »
I can't say I am that informed about tactics but can I asked what is needed for us to maybe play passes out wide and particularly into the channels? It seems that with Southampton playing a high line and Sturridge and Aspas being good at that why we didn't get them into those positions and play balls into the channels for them to run onto?

Can this not be done by a long pass? Do we need to be higher up the field to do that? Is it because the likes of Gerrard were not able to shake off the pressing to be able to get their head up and do that?


Against teams like Southampton making it narrow at the back it´s pretty hard to find spaces. With a long ball, this ball has to be perfect on the feet of the player with this player being from the talent to control and pass on the ball immediately. What I am trying to say is that it´s more risky to lose a ball with playing a long passing game then controlling the game with short passes and waiting for the right opportunity.

Losing the ball constantly tires the team, it wears you out as you have to chase the ball and start all over again. Gerrard, IMO, plays the long ball too often against teams offering little to no space IMO.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline subroc

  • cut at you with a clipper? Gas Face given, I beg to differ.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,292
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #192 on: September 24, 2013, 11:22:22 am »
I think we feel Alberto's ceiling is higher than Eriksen's. For whatever Rodgers didn't want to start with Alberto but I still think that has no bearing on whether we rate Eriksen as a better player than Alberto. It's also worth bearing in mind we have Allen and Suso who is on loan. We should be eager to see what Alberto can do rather than pine after Eriksen.

It is not about pining for any playre - it is about the methodology behind the decision making that is being questioned here. Why after spending 14M on two youth players, we are no stronger right now than what we were before we signed them because neitgher of them are ready for the first team yet. 14M that could have ben spent on one player who is ready.

The fact that Rodgers did not start with Alberto is his tacit admsision that Alberto is not yet ready for the big time. But if he is not ready, then why did we spend 7M to sign him to put him into the squad? We should reserve that kind of expenditure for players who are ready to improve the first team immediately.  Otherwise it is only fritteing away your budgt and padding out the squad with players who cannot be relied upon to perform at the requisite level of quality immediately from the get go

For players like Alberto, we should be spotting them and signing them a few years earlier at 1-2M. if we are to spend 7M+, then spend it on players who are already better than what we have, not just potentially so.

Offline incredibleL4ever

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,627
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #193 on: September 24, 2013, 11:24:27 am »
For me that was not having the natural width, Johnson and Enrique provide. I keep repeating it but the distance between Moses and Sakho and Toure and Aspas was too much, it meant that the ball was easily recycled by them when it went forward to either. This also had the effect of pinning Gerrard and Lucas back, the balance of the team was completely off, because the full-backs could not get tight to our wide attackers. If they did, we would have pushed them back, and Gerrard/Lucas/Hendo would all be pressing and playing further up the pitch where they should be, particularly at home against a team like Soton.

Agree with this.  In football you have to work in little groups....e.g. the RB works with the RM and the RCB, they over each other, make themselves available for a pass etc.  So instead of following the ball or trying to cover everyone, you have specific players to watch and work with.  Trouble arises when players become isolated.  They have no easy outlet and cant take a risk, coz there is no cover.  This is partly a training ground issue, and partly about playing players in positions they are suited to and with partners that suit them.  Trouble currently is we have a fair few new players and a fair few out with injuries so it will impact on performance.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #194 on: September 24, 2013, 11:26:08 am »
. What has happened to the manager's philosophy ?

That´s the big question. To me, after the Norwich win away last season, 5:2, we started to gave up on it step by step, not entirely but nothing from the initial plan he started out with IMO.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 11:42:13 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #195 on: September 24, 2013, 11:27:58 am »
Sorry mate but that is classic case of putting head in the sand. You need to rewatch last 15 min and you'll be absolutely shocked at how dead on the feet lucas was. There was a situation where he literally couldn't move. With the money these players get per week it's a bit unproffesional to be that unfit. We were supposed to be chasing result but how can you do that when your engine is completely out of steam.
Of course they weren't the only one fallible but the say nothing is wrong with them is I'm sorry but it's a bit laughable.

POP mentioned the fitness issuess, apparentely we changed something during pre season which might have a negative impact on the current fitness of the players..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #196 on: September 24, 2013, 11:31:15 am »
From all of the above (and I don't want to get too downbeat after a very positive start to the season) its clear the one area we are struggling in is the middle, where control is not being exerted.

Prior to our game at the Liberty Stadium last week, I listened to a Swansea supporter assessing their team and prospects. One of the things that he was utterly persistant about was the importance of Leon Britton and the role that he played in ensuring their system functioned efficiently. Leon Britton is not likely to appear on any MoTD highlight reels any time soon, but what he offers is most certainly undervalued or even overlooked entirely. He's constantly available, always looking to keep the ball moving and the tempo high. He keeps things simple and ticking over. He is the foundation of Swansea's entire system and - according to the Swansea supporter in question - when he is missing from the side, their system does not function in anywhere near the same manner. Like removing a major cog from a machine and switching it on. He offered Shelvey as the comparison and the fact that he (much like Gerrard) has that desire for the diagonal ball, which goes largely against the short passing, possession based model and will often result in the loss of possession and in turn, the dillution of the overall blueprint.

For me, Joe Allen is the closest player in terms of attributes and technical ability that we have in comparison with Leon Britton. He could perform that kind of role for us, assuming Brendan is still looking towards that ultimate vision for the club. Joe Allen excelled in that role in the opening months of last season and personally, i'd like to see him given the chance to do so again. As an aside, he also possesses more energy (and stamina?) than Lucas and Gerrard as a pair, which we're consistantly lacking.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 11:34:57 am by Grobbelrevell »
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,427
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #197 on: September 24, 2013, 11:43:51 am »
Prior to our game at the Liberty Stadium last week, I listened to a Swansea supporter assessing their team and prospects. One of the things that he was utterly persistant about was the importance of Leon Britton and the role that he played in ensuring their system functioned efficiently. Leon Britton is not likely to appear on any MoTD highlight reels any time soon, but what he offers is most certainly undervalued or even overlooked entirely. He's constantly available, always looking to keep the ball moving and the tempo high. He keeps things simple and ticking over. He is the foundation of Swansea's entire system and - according to the Swansea supporter in question - when he is missing from the side, their system does not function in anywhere near the same manner. Like removing a major cog from a machine and switching it on. He offered Shelvey as the comparison and the fact that he (much like Gerrard) has that desire for the diagonal ball, which goes largely against the short passing, possession based model and will often result in the loss of possession and in turn, the dillution of the overall blueprint.

For me, Joe Allen is the closest player in terms of attributes and technical ability that we have in comparison with Leon Britton. He could perform that kind of role for us, assuming Brendan is still looking towards that ultimate vision for the club. Joe Allen excelled in that role in the opening months of last season and personally, i'd like to see him given the chance to do so again. As an aside, he also possesses more energy (and stamina?) than Lucas and Gerrard as a pair, which we're consistantly lacking.

the problem with Allen is not Allen. The problem with Allen is when he is played alongside Gerrard. May as well ask to be raped overrun in the middle. For me, its a simple choice, either Allen or Gerrard, but not the two. And increasingly its looking like Gerrard needs to be dropped and Allen given a go.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #198 on: September 24, 2013, 11:58:33 am »
Hey Rossi!  How are you?  Good to see you posting.

You're awfully harsh on Rodgers here mate.  With hindsight you can do anything.  We just played badly aided by the team selection.

I don't know if it was Alan_X or someone else who said that Rodgers may need to become familiar with his own vision again.  Clearly the positive results at the start of the season have given us a scent of top 4 so we've become results focused.  And with that comes the cagey football lacking fluidity.  I want to see us beat that 71 goal total of last season.  We aren't going to do that playing how we have in the first 5 games.

But it's a tough job being manager.  He's got to deliver results and build.  I think he needs to get back to building because in the long-term I truly believe we will have benefits.  We've got a number of good young players coming through and while the Suarez's of this world will leave if CL football is not achieved these youngsters will want to play in a good footballing side.  Look after the ball and it will look after you.
Maybe I am Hank but feel it is deserved criticism. Mostly because I'm really disappointed in him after making some good progress. It's made me question certain things again, doubts I once firmly held from the early days of his tenure. You quote Alan saying he needs to become familiar with his own vision again. But think about that for a second. Is a firm vision that easily mislaid? To suggest that after just 4 games, he became results-focused carried away with talk of top 4, and just parked his philosophy (which I all but said but in less flattering "champagne" terms) causes me great concern. A vision should be like principles. Fixed and resolute. Not something conveniently adopted in press conferences when advocating for time to deliver.

I'm also deeply disappointed that the reality check wasn't delivered against his old club last week when we lost our 100% record. Aside from being lucky to come away with a point, the fact we were almost embarrassed by Laudrup's team in the second half, giving Rodgers a taste of his own medicine if you like, should have been sufficient to rethink and elicit a response. Southampton at home was not a time to complacently shrug it off, let your ego rule and tinker. Perhaps when we were 3-up with 15 to go, but not from the first whistle.

Which is why I think your "we just played badly aided by team selection" assessment is dangerously superficial. And I pray Rodgers isn't saying the same thing to himself in the bathroom mirror. Personally I think this was much more than just a bad day at the office compounded by injuries, as I explained in my post. It exposed some underlying fundamental flaws and realities that need dealing with and quickly.

I completely agree it's an extremely tough job though, to simultaneously build for the future and deliver in the present. But I'm afraid that's the deal when you're given the reigns of a five-time European Cup winning club, a sizeable transfer kitty, and paid a seven-figure salary.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,053
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.
« Reply #199 on: September 24, 2013, 11:58:52 am »
If we had signed Eriksen, how do you keep either him or Coutinho on the bench? He'd also block Suso when he comes back from loan. We also scouted him extensively before we made a decision not to go in for him - your analysis is based on 3 games.

Wish people would stop using Eriksen as a stick to beat BR with.

Coutinho isn't ready to play number 10 for Liverpool every game. He's a developing player, he can't be expected to carry the team and have so much burden on him. He can also play left or right.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season