Author Topic: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC  (Read 42047 times)

Offline sushared

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2012, 09:43:54 am »
haven't seen much on BR performance. i would say he had a shocker. when Agger was gone, he should have gone for a much better tactical change. why not play a back line of 3 of Skrtel, Carra and Kelly. i very much doubt the tactical capabilities of BR. he has a fixed system and of it works, everything is hunky dory but then if one of the spokes come off, we are in deep trouble. say Allen has a bad game in the future we would be in  more trouble, i reckon.

i know it is slightly early to criticize the manager but i just dont get the feeling that there is enough tactical know how in him to turn over games like this. i had said earlier said that we need a manager who with his tactical innovation has to ensure that liverpool hits way above their weight to achieve that elusive 4th spot. we could most probably be out of the 4th spot reckoning by end of sept the way the fixture list now.

with the owners also hell bent on destroying our youth system are we staring at a very long winter with some sporadic performance here and there. 

Offline Livo.85

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2012, 09:49:05 am »
When the game went to 2-0 with 10 men I think it needs to be analyzed if the right changes were made. Understandably it was highly unlikely that we could get a result at this stage, especially with West Brom playing really well but for all we know they could of switched off &/or our system & players could of been at least more efficient & therefore more competitive. Let's face it, we were getting completely out classed & if it wasn't for Pepe Reina it could of been a 5 or 6 goal thrashing!

Carragher for Downing (60)
Cole for Lucas (69)
Carroll for Cole (78)

After the 60th minute we got completely over run in midfield as Lucas was fatigued & Gerrard looked completely lost both mentally & positionally.
Carragher looked to struggle playing the high line & failed at wrestling with Lukaku.
Borini & Suarez link up play was scarce.
Kelly was ineffectual at full back & neither fullback gave as decent width going forward, understandable as we were getting out played in midfield.

                                                                                   Reina
                               
                                 Kelly                      Skrtel                               Carragher (60)                       Johnson

                                                        Lucas/Cole (69)/Gerrard (78)                                 Allen
                                                                       
                                                                            Gerrard (Suarez 78)

                                                     Suarez (Carroll 78)                              Borini

Question 1: Was Carragher the right defensive option on the bench?

Question 2: Was bringing Downing off the right option? Perhaps Borini would of been the better option? Equally as poor as Downing?

Question 3: The formation? Maybe 3 at the back with Kelly-Carragher-Skrtel, 4 in midfield with Johnson-Lucas/Shelvey-Allen-Downing, 2 attackers of Gerrard behind Suarez & then Suarez with Carroll?

Question 4: Was Cole medically scrutinized enough? Did the medical team make a mistake? Hind sight it's easy to say but even if Cole didn't get injured was he a better option than Shelvey?

Question 5: 3 central midfielders on the bench of Henderson, Adam & Shelvey yet Joe Cole came on for Lucas in central midfield. Why 4 players on the bench who can all cover the same position?

Feel free to disagree with any of my opinions & debate the questions that I feel need to be asked. I'm a fan of Rodger's but I feel plenty of lessons need to be learned from the game. I'm sure the manager & staff will analyze the game & perhaps discuss similar questions.

EDIT: Question 5.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 10:41:47 am by Livo.85 »

Offline LondonBarnes

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2012, 09:53:16 am »
Joe Cole on the bench was a disgrace. He should be forced to leave the club. Pay him off or something I dont know but the fact he's still getting opportunities to play while Sterling doesnt even get included in the 18 man squad is unacceptable.

Offline alfonso

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2012, 09:56:05 am »
LFC Statistical Analysis:

Dominate match – miss clear chances. Concede one goal – push the self-destruct button. Yeah, normal service is resumed for Liverpool. The common features that led to the club’s worst run of form since 1954, last season, seem to still be lingering around the squad – even with a new manager with new ideas. When will the poor run and bad luck end for the Reds? The performance was decent but bad finishing and poor refereeing cost Brendan Rodgers his first Premier League win at the club.

The stats would suggest a different performance, though – a good one would you believe.

http://www.eplindex.com/17703/lfc-statistical-analysis-west-brom-3-liverpool-0.html

Gerrard had the lowest pass accuracy at 82%
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2012, 10:04:07 am »
Terrible at he office but with a brand new system we were always going to have teething problems. Also attempting to implement a new system with our first 3 home games being City, Manu and Arsenal is also making to make things difficult.

Things I think we need to concentrate on in the up coming weeks.

1. We need to circulate the ball much faster in midfield.
WBA did a great job of putting pressure on the ball but if we were moving the ball quicker they wouldn't have been able to get near us.
It's understandable, Lucas is just back from a long lay off, Gerrard has a very hurried style of play and the rest of the team simply aren't used to passing the ball at pace. With training and learning each other runs and movement this will come but it will take time.

2. The fullbacks have to be much more effective at providing width.
I think Johnson can be just as effective as Danny Alves for Barca but he needs to right on the right so he can cross with his right foot and hopefully Enrique is back soon, if he is out of favour then we have to give Robinson a chance and hope he can take his game to the next level.
If we play Lucas, Allen and Henderson in the middle of the park then width isn't going to come from midfield, it is going to have to come from the fullbacks.

3. Finding effective positions for Borini, Gerrard and Suarez.
We need to find positions for these 3 that play to their strengths.
For Suarez, his strength is picking up the ball in a relatively deep position and then making a mazy run towards goal, in front of goal he is less effective.
For Borini, he seems to be a bit of a poacher, he isn't going to create many chances but he does seem to be in the right position when oppertunities drop inside the box.
For Gerrard, his strength is his intelligence inside the penalty area and his coolness when chances present themselves.
I suggest giving Gerrard and Suarez licence to play 'between the lines' and make Borini sit in front of them, their positions may shift but primerily this should be how they line up.
If Dempsey is purchased then Borini falls out of the team and Dempsey takes his place.

4. Passing, passing and passing some more is not in our DNA.
And it is not GOING to become part of our DNA until it because second nature and that requires that we keep passing even when things aren't going our way.
I'm sure many people wish Skrtel had put his foot through the ball rather then dwelling on the ball and giving away a penalty. Skrtel's problem is he didn't move the ball fast enough, not he didn't hit the ball into row Z. We aren't going to take on a new style of play if we are going to resort to type (panic) when the shit hits the fan. Iron out the kinks in training, practice passing until it's perfected, Rome wasn't built in a day.

With City, Manu and Arsenal in quick succession I think it's likely things will get worse before they get better but we have to keep working at things until we perfect them. If we are going to make a footballing identity for ourselves then we are going to have to work hard at it and keep at it even though it will be far easier to put bodies behind the ball and hit it long in the hopes something will drop for us, that is a short term plan that is going to yeild short term results.

Offline ALANM

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2012, 10:09:54 am »
You can't legislate for the 1st goal, it was a brilliant strike. The 1st penalty was correct, and the fact Agger was last defender meant it had to be a red card under current rules. 2nd penalty wasn't, Long bought it by making it look like Skrtel had tripped him. Any other forward would have done exactly the same though. After that there was no way back. We also missed some very presentable 1st half chances before they scored. Wasting chances was a major problem last season, and it needs sorting now. If it means extra shooting practice after training then so be it.

Not as bad as result suggests, but essential we get to work on what went wrong before City arrive at Anfield next Sunday.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2012, 10:09:55 am »
I've a fear that Brendan may try changing things too much too soon and that will become a problem when without major investment we wont have the sqaud to adapt to such a change. Infact I think he was alluding to that fact when he said "there will be plenty more days like this to come along the way" when he spoke yesterday. I just hope he gets the time.


Offline wah00ey

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 10:13:38 am »
How any sane, rational person not drugged out of their mind or having consumed 50 litres of Special Brew can say that that second penalty was warranted is beyond me - and that includes Hansen on MOTD.  Skrtel was running away from their player, never even looked at him.  The West Brom lad ran round Skrtel and tripped himself up in attempting to get the ball.  In reality, it's a foul the other way.

But this is all somewhat beside the point now.  For me, it was same sh1t, different season.  Gerrard might as well not have been on the pitch but if only Suarez could score!  I suspect had he converted one of his earlier chances then he may well have gone on to score more.  Borini needs to play in the middle with Luis running either of the channels.  Luis will get precisely zero decisions this season if we don't "play the game" and put pressure on the referrees outside of game time.  Perhaps put a dossier together of all the decisions he doesn't get and then run in past the FA?  Oh, hang on, maybe not!

In imposing his "style" on the defenders, Buck needs to ensure they don't dwell on the ball in the wrong areas.  I agree with the whole possession philosophy - it's what we have done historically ffs - but we put ourselves under too much pressure on the edge of our own box, certainly yesterday.

Finally, Buck must have known Clarke would know us inside out.  Clarke clearly had a plan for us and Buck had no plan B when Clarke's plan was clearly winning the day.  Disappointing.
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Offline ladcameo

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2012, 10:13:58 am »
i do admit that new manager's tactics and formations will take some time to sink but you expect at least 40-50% of it in the 1st game which didnt happen today..players were resigning once agger was sent off.someone shud tell suarez that he is not striker but a second striker

Offline The Las

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2012, 10:18:05 am »
I know its a bit of a over used phrase these days, but - KEEP CALM and CARRY ON> is rather appropriate.

It was spurs away all over again - The conspiring demons were out in force, some bad decisions, some right decisions, game changing decisions, poor finishing.

Perfect chance to put that right by next week.

I must say after yesterday im confused what fabio borinis role in this season is going to be. I hope we get another forward in before the end of the season.

United - put all their eggs in one basket with RVP, goalscorers are a rare comodity.

Offline spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2012, 10:21:47 am »
We'll soon see if Rodgers has the strength of his convictions because both GH and Rafa attempted to move to a more expansive style of play and then reverted to type when results weren't instantly forthcoming. Possession football is probably the hardest style of play to perfect and teams aren't going to just roll over for you while you attempt to perfect it.

Offline Blingostarr

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2012, 10:21:59 am »
Nothing was ever going to be fixed in a couple of months, it is a long road we're on.  My main worries about yesterday are that Gerrard just didnt seem himself at all, I dont know if he was knackered maybe but he seemed to stop trying, hopefully just a one game blip.  Also Downing worries me and why wasnt Raheem on the bench ahead of Cole and Adam but I think a game like City at home is just what we need to bounce back.
JFT96

Offline andywilko

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2012, 10:23:02 am »
Based on his performance yesterday, Gerrard should not play in the midfield three.  He doesn't move the ball quickly or accurately enough.  Shelvey or Henderson would be better options.  Move Gerrard up into the front three with him and Suarez either side of Borini.  Having said that, there's not much you can do about a wonder goals and piss-poor refereeing (not just the pens, the whole game).  I'm not too worried. 
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Offline StevenLFC

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2012, 10:23:19 am »
haven't seen much on BR performance. i would say he had a shocker. when Agger was gone, he should have gone for a much better tactical change. why not play a back line of 3 of Skrtel, Carra and Kelly. i very much doubt the tactical capabilities of BR. he has a fixed system and of it works, everything is hunky dory but then if one of the spokes come off, we are in deep trouble. say Allen has a bad game in the future we would be in  more trouble, i reckon.

i know it is slightly early to criticize the manager but i just dont get the feeling that there is enough tactical know how in him to turn over games like this. i had said earlier said that we need a manager who with his tactical innovation has to ensure that liverpool hits way above their weight to achieve that elusive 4th spot. we could most probably be out of the 4th spot reckoning by end of sept the way the fixture list now.

with the owners also hell bent on destroying our youth system are we staring at a very long winter with some sporadic performance here and there. 

I disagree with pretty much everything you say there. Of all the negative things to say about Rodgers, saying he has a lack of tactical know how is ludicrous. Also, going three at the back sounds good, but we were still only one goal down at the time, so keeping the back door shut was sensible management. I also can't see how the owners are 'hell bent' on destroying our youth system. These round table discussions deserve better than that lazy piece you just wrote.

Offline Rafasacolytereturns

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2012, 10:32:00 am »
Its simple boys and girls you have to take your chances.

When we win, everyones happy with the team, sunshine, smiles, shits and giggles, but when we don't take our chances the same tired "battering teams but still getting beat" scenario that has plagued Liverpool for years occurs,and the fans go mental, tearing the team to shreds and focussing on minor and perhaps irrelevant issues as we do on this site every single day it seems these days.

Luis Suarez is a scorer of great goals, but not a great goal scorer. He reminds me of Steve Mcmanaman, technically one of the best players to ever pull on a red shirt, could twist defenders inside out, could move at pace, could pass short and long, create chances out of nothing but ask him to poke the ball into the back of the net from 5 yards out and more often than not it would be past the post or over the bar.

We got punished an awful lot last season due to us not putting our chances away after practically walking the ball up to the goal line, by my count the team had 6 decent chances yesterday (4 them falling to Luis, 2 of which where gilt edged) and missed them all.

The same scenario played out game after game last season, the team as a whole is in severe need of some shooting practise, but none more so than Luis, the incredible thing is that given the fact i think he can't hit a barn door, he still managed 17 goals in all competitions last year, if we watched them back most of them are probably worldies as well, reinforcing the "scorer of great goals" monkier. Its a real shame as I'd bet he'd be challenging Dixie Deans record if he had the finishing touch of Fowler in his game but that just can't be taught, its instinct, so it gives us a real issue that needs dealing with.

I wouldn't advocate getting rid of Luis in a million years but a few people have made the suggesstion of moving Suarez out wide and giving someone else a shot at being the central man, its worth considering if games continue to play out as they did yesterday (and indeed most of last season)
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Offline Cocomin

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2012, 10:34:06 am »
 
 Brendan needs to start playing big Andy or move him on if we only get offered £12-£15 million so what we need to
 take it there is no point sitting him on the bench just for the sake of it, for what it's worth i would play him we had
 Downing and Johno both putting in crosses yesterday that he would've buried.

 Adam is a lot of things but at least he is creative he should've got on long before Cole did he is just not any use anymore
 and i am totally baffled how Brendan thinks that he is; pay up his contract and get rid i am sure we can do a deal with him he
 looks like a player that wants to play Brendan tell him he to go now please.
 
 Kelly had a bad game but he wasn't helped by all around i am not bashing him after one game,Gerrard was utter mince as was big Martin
 and Borini was anonymous as was Downing.

 Johno,Allen,Pepe and Suarez were pass marks but we must do better and quickly or Europe could be gone pretty damn quickly.

 Brendan needs to learn as well to make tough decisions i know Cole was his mate at Chelsea but he needs to get rid.

Offline No.7 The King

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2012, 10:40:42 am »
My worry yesterday was how Shane Long disrupted our play. Reminds me of us against Arsenal when we drew 4-4 in 08/09. Skrtel and Agger never looked comfortable being pressed by a quick striker.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2012, 10:49:30 am »
I listened in the car on a long drive home. Until the first penalty I felt we would eventually get back into it. After that heads seemed to drop a bit which has been a familiar story over the last couple of years.

I'm almost always positive and without watching the game closely I will choose to stay that way. My concern though is when people, probably fairly, question the mentality of this team...I worry because how do we change it? Our back 5 everyone would have been happy with before kick off. Enrique for Kelly obviously but Kelly is reliable. That midfield three is what almost all of us wanted to see. Front three, well not going into Downing on here but possible room for improvement there, otherwise that was the personnel most ls us expected or wanted. So are we guilty if over rating them? How do we stop heads from dropping? Or do we just write it off as a bad day, compounded by frustrating refereeing or is that just taking the easy way out?

Bit of a ramble, sorry.

Offline gandalf50

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2012, 10:52:57 am »
Based on his performance yesterday, Gerrard should not play in the midfield three.  He doesn't move the ball quickly or accurately enough.  Shelvey or Henderson would be better options.  Move Gerrard up into the front three with him and Suarez either side of Borini.  Having said that, there's not much you can do about a wonder goals and piss-poor refereeing (not just the pens, the whole game).  I'm not too worried. 
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Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2012, 10:53:50 am »
Where to start really.

First game, awful day at the office. I hate away games on opening day, because no matter who you play, they usually play well. And let's not be twats here, West Brom played really, really well at times yesterday.

With that being said we weren't anywhere near as bad as people make out, it just transpired that things went tits up spectacularly that led to the scoreline.

First half, if you remove Gera's wonder goal (he's a villain, his first name is Zoltan for fucks sake) we were at least even and should have been ahead before that strike. Second half, tits up, down to 10, went to shit. It happens.

Individually there were a lot who had poor games, but poor for different reasons. So lets start at the back. I thought the back 4 were poor across the board yesterday, defending wise. Kelly to me now looks like a young CB who is playing well out of position at RB. Skrtel and Agger both looked a shadow of themselves from last year and I'll be honest, I hate Glenn on the left. He's nt good defensively out there on that side and while he's still effective going forward, no where near as much as on the right.

In the Middle. Lucas looks well short of fitness, which is to be expected, but was still ok. Allen looked like a lad who was at a new club for the first time, but was still ok and Gerrard had a "gomel first leg" stinker of a game.

Up front Borini looked ok in places, but also like a young lad in others, a young lad struggling to impose himself on the game. Suarez had a head like a 50p piece and couldn't hit a barndoor with an oversized banjo no matter how good he was leading up to chances and Downing was....well Joe cole showed him up when he came on. That says it all really.

Reina had a ok game though I thought.

So if you take into account that mostly our players played pretty shit, and you weigh up that despite that we should have been winning before they scored their first, then there is scope to say "Hang on a minute. Let's not fracture our own skulls with our knees. Things will get better" Yeah, I know that we've been saying it for years, but as mny have said, these things take time. Rodgers will do well to have turned things around and have us challenging for top 4 in 3 years, especially with the owners being tight fisted and some of the players we need to shift on not going.

Could or should Rodgers have done things differently? Possibly. Fucking easy to be a manager in hindsight though isn't it. I'd personally not have put Carra on so we didn't have to watch Lukaku brush him aside like he wasn't there. Mayb bring Carroll on earlier. Maybe this, maybe that.

All we can do is learn from this, plug away and really see a reaction against Hearts.

I hope.
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Offline John C

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2012, 10:56:14 am »
It was messy, disjointed and frankly disappointing – but that’s not a criticism because I wouldn’t even call it early days, we’re at the embryonic stage of our season, indeed journey (again).

I’m sorry, but despite everything I’ve read and heard I sincerely believe Dowd had a stinker and his decisions impacted the game as much as the fantastic strike that rocked us. Lucas received a petty booking while a few of their players we’re afforded a couple of telling off’s.

We controlled the ball well enough without playing brilliantly, albeit our passing was sloppy, but that goal was simply a sickener and at a bad time of the game. If you look at it closely I think Borini makes an early decision not to take one for the team and leaves Johnson to close Gera down – Borini should have been in his face earlier.

Dowd could even have told Long to get up when Agger glanced him with his hand but the fact is that Agger should have got goal-side far quicker – as he was running back he hesitated and gave himself a massive positional disadvantage.

Skrtel was unlucky to concede, again Dowd exhibited bias imo. It was actually quite sad to see such an overall performance from an experienced referee.

The third goal was littered with defensive errors but we were a team down to 10 men and probably drained by then.

People shouldn’t be too disheartened by what they saw, the additions of Assaidi and probably Dempsey will make us more dynamic and energetic.

Whatever happens at City we need to look forward to going on a really good run during the Autumn and build from there.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2012, 11:07:47 am »
Possession for possession's sake. Ball going backward too much. Passing was slow too. Gerrard was a waste of a shirt. Downing too. Suarez tried really hard but can't do it on his own. Johnson is a big tart.

Too many players are not good enough.

Don't like Rodger's quote that "there will be more days like these"

Inspires confidence no?
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2012, 11:09:35 am »
The final third. The final third. The final third.

I've been banging about it all Summer. All our problems last season stemmed from our lack of creativity in the final third and our lack of ruthlesness in front of goal.

Sure there were games where we lacked control. A lot of that was due to Lucas' absence. But the main issue we had all of last season, Lucas or no Lucas, was in the final third.

Quite simply: we have very little creativity there. Our entire gameplan once we get to the box is either to 1) Give the ball to Luis Suarez and have him dribble past 3 defenders (as seen in the 1st half yesterday) 2) Throw in an aimless cross into the box.

There's no creativity. No slide rule passes that cut defenses in 2, no quick 1/2s that create an opportunity, no pacey wingers that get to the byline and pull back the ball for a striker.

And on the few instances when we do create something, we dont have a killer in the box. We dont have a player that can score from a half chance or even from a good chance.

Borini has potential and had a good few months last season but God knows if he's any good. Noone of us know. What we do know is that we sold one of the greatest strikers in our history and replaced him with Andy Carroll. Now, Carroll's been ostracised and Borini's taken his place. We've gone from Fernando Torres to Fabio Borini in less than 2 years. For me, that's not good enough.

Suarez was bought to complement Torres, not replace him. At the moment, he's been asked to be our Mcmanaman and our Fowler at the same time: chief creator, chief dribbler and chief scorer. He's an amazing player but he's not Leo Messi. The boy needs help.

There's no goals in this team. Allen doesnt score, Lucas doesnt score, Downing is a 1 in 8 historicaly at best. Borini is settling in. We're totally reliant on a 32 year old Gerrard (whos best years are patently past him) and Suarez for our goals, or a Srtkel set piece effort. Thats it. That's the sum total of our attacking threat. Quite simply, thats nowhere near good enough.

We needed major investment in the final third this Summer for one reason: last year, we spent 55m on Downing and Carroll, 2 final third players who both bombed. They need replacing with players of better quality. Simple as that.

Lastly, I've been banging about the wings all Summer. We've gone from Maxi, Kuyt and Bellamy to Cole, Borini and Assaidi. Without prejudging anyone, that just doesnt seem to be an improvement to me. The mere presence of Joe Cole on our bench is an insult as far as Im concerned. At best, it looks as we moved sideways when we've drasticaly needed improvement.

Posession is all good and well but it gets you nowhere if you get to the edge of the area and have no idea what to do with the ball. It gets you nowhere if you somehow create a chance but have noone to put the ball in the net. Those are the areas in dire need of investment, not anywhere else. We have 2 weeks or so to invest heavilly there or buy very smartly there, or we'll finish 7th or 8th again.

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2012, 11:21:44 am »
i very much doubt the tactical capabilities of BR.

This is the sort of sentence that would be impressive if you'd posted it on the eve of the match. I might have been intrigued enough to read on in that instance. As it is I didn't read on. Maybe you come up with some blinding and frightening insight about Rodgers's fundamental ineptitude, in which case I apologise, but I suspect it's just a slightly more refined form of wailing after an unexpected defeat. You're sad and it's all Rodgers's fault.

I'm sad too. I'd mentally scratched in 3 points for this one, in readiness for the more uncertain ties to come. Mistake! I was also, for once, really looking forward to the match. I mean really.  Of course I always do, but anticipation is normally mixed with a degree of trepidation. What will happen when Kuyt gets the ball? How slow will Carragher be this week? Will Carroll show his claws or will he stay curled up on the sofa? And above all, will we start hoofing when things don't go our way? But yesterday I settled in to watch a command performance. I expected we'd have the ball and that eventually gaps would open in the opposition's lines. I expected to be delighted by Liverpool and to be able to breathe normally watching them - as I used to do in the 80s.

It looked great for 44 minutes. The Throstles (one for the oldies there) had a storming, chaotic first 3 minutes but for the next 41 we looked slick, fit, patient and skillful. We also looked in command. West Brom, the home team, started to surrender two-thirds of the pitch. The ball moved really quickly when we had it. No one hoofed.

Not that we were firing on all cylinders. Lucas did some good things but he was reminded that being fit to face a piece of shit like Gomel is not the same as being genuinely Premier League fit. Shane Long nicked it off him at one point and almost scored, reminding our lad that the best attackers in England don't believe in such a thing as a 'lost cause' and will chase anything and use muscle to get it. That was a good reminder. He needs to use muscle to defend it.

Kelly also looked out of sorts at right back. There was one dreadful Carragher-esque miscue when under no pressure, although that was untypical of the lad. What is slightly more concerning for him is that he lacks the foot-skills (as opposed to raw pace) to beat an opponent - which is precisely what the Rodgers system demands of an advanced full back like himself. On reflection it would have been better to have had Johnson on the right and the very promising Jack Robbo on the left.

I see Suarez has come in for some stick for not burying that header at the end of the first half. He did on the commentary too where it went down as 'a regulation chance' or some such bollocks.  My reaction to that type of comment is that either 1. You have never played football and have no sense of what is possible in the air 2. You have played football but are clearly deluded about your own aerial skills.  Suarez could never have scored that a goal from that cross. The ball was simply too high. In fact he did remarkably well to get his forehead on it at all. A less technical player would have seen the ball skim off his crown. But it was always going to be too much to ask for him to head the ball down. Even Carroll, with his extra height, would have struggled. 

I won't go into the second half except to say that it was hot, we were playing with one less player than them (two less if you count old man Carragher), and the ref had a very poor game.

Of the new boys Joe Allen was excellent. Borini looked thrown out of joint by the physicality of the Premier League, but he'll come good I'm sure.

The most worrying aspect, Kelly apart, was Gerrard. He looked sadly lacking in athleticism again and you wonder if old father time is catching up to him quicker than he thinks. He was also noticeably out of sync with the rest of the team in the first half. Six or seven probing passes and the ball comes to Gerrard high up the pitch. What's needed is a boring little pass backwards to Lucas or Allen so that they can quickly get the machine moving in another direction while retaining the ball. Not for Stevie. It's as if his patience breaks. "Six or seven passes is enough", he seems to say. "If we haven't created a chance by then I'm gonna try something else". And a cross is whipped into a packed penalty box.

It's cleared of course. And the opposition get their breath back. And their shape.

We might need a proper number 10.   

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2012, 11:23:06 am »
Possession for possession's sake. Ball going backward too much. Passing was slow too.

I thought the passing was quick (when we had eleven players). But that aside I predict a miserable season for you. You're not going to like the new Liverpool I think.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2012, 11:30:32 am »

The most worrying aspect, Kelly apart, was Gerrard. He looked sadly lacking in athleticism again and you wonder if old father time is catching up to him quicker than he thinks. He was also noticeably out of sync with the rest of the team in the first half. Six or seven probing passes and the ball comes to Gerrard high up the pitch. What's needed is a boring little pass backwards to Lucas or Allen so that they can quickly get the machine moving in another direction while retaining the ball. Not for Stevie. It's as if his patience breaks. "Six or seven passes is enough", he seems to say. "If we haven't created a chance by then I'm gonna try something else". And a cross is whipped into a packed penalty box.

It's cleared of course. And the opposition get their breath back. And their shape.

We might need a proper number 10.   



I agree about Stevie Yorky, but at the same time I completely understand him: it's soley up to him to create.

There's noone else he can turn to in the final third. Downing is not going to create neither is Borini. When the ball gets to Stevie after a few passes like you say, his natural instinct must be to think "Right, I need to get the ball to Luis because otherwise, noone else will".

That's how I see it. And, you know what, a few years ago that would be fine. But his best days are behind him. We either buy some quality players around him to share the creativity burden or we'll be stuck in the same mess.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2012, 11:33:31 am »
While I can see a lot of the good things mentioned by people on here like trying to play the new system and the higher line etc, yesterday still highlighted 2 major flaws in the squad that we've carried over from last season. One being the obvious lack of finishing of some excellent chances, and the other being the fact that this squad does not have any fight. One or two things go against us in a game and it's over. Gerrard doesn't seem to have the ability in his locker anymore to grab the team by the scruff of he neck, and no one else does either. We are weak mentally as a squad

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2012, 11:35:58 am »
It's a harsh lesson and a harsh start for BR. And it's not going to get any easier when our next 3 games are games from hell. I thought we played well in the first half. Some of the players were understandably nervous and Suarez was once again profligate.

But it doesn't mean we have to push the panic button now. It's game #1 of 38 and the season is long. We're not going to be world beaters over night. I'd rather see BR's footballing philosophy being applied like he intended and then a fair judgement can be made.

Offline Zlen

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2012, 11:38:08 am »
A kick in the teeth.
I don't think we'll be going anywhere fast in the league with our current squad, there is simply not enough goals, creativity and penetration in our attack to make any kind of impact. We need to make more moves in the market because the fabled system itself just won't be enough, even when it clicks.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2012, 11:41:37 am »
Some posts I have read state that EVERYBODY knows how Rogers wants to play. They know what to expect and how to set out their teams to play against Liverpool.

Now this isn't a problem for Barcelona or for Spain. A fast pressing, short, quick passing game, executed well is something teams can't cope with 95% of the time.

Rogers said there will be more days like this and as much as I want a top 4 finish this season, its safe to expect it will take us 2+ seasons to adopt these new ideas on a consistent basis to see the fruits of our labour paying off. 

Trying to change our players way of thinking and playing will initially cause a lot of errors and frustration. I was excited about this season but yesterday the reality set in. Patience is needed.

From what I saw I think the players were way too far apart to be playing any sort of passing game and they weren't making themselves available for eachother enough which lead to dwelling on the ball and giving away posession in key areas.

WBA knew what to expect, Shane Long harried our defence whilst they were in posession for most of the game.

I was expecting the guys on Sunday Supplement to rip into Liverpool as they did Arsenal, yet they never...its clear to them that we're not title contenders, not even top 4 contenders...that at best we'll get a Europa League spot, the media have already lowered their expectation, they did state though that the Fans won't be able to accept that it will take time and thats where the trouble starts.


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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2012, 11:44:39 am »
I can ‘morbidly’ imagine what must have unraveled on RAWK in the ‘post-match-thread’ last night.  It must have been similar to that of a pack of hyenas at a recent kill.

Whilst Allen, Suarez and Reina were our best performers, Kelly and Gerrard were by far the worst with the balance been very average.

Kelly looked in total ‘shock and awe’ throughout the game which was a pity as I really rate Kelly.  He however left his A game at home yesterday, what with shanked clearances and woeful, at times, positioning.

Why we have to move Johnson to Left Back in the absence of Enrique is beyond me.  Whilst Johnson is a fantastic defender both on the Right and Left he is a superb attacking Wing Back but only on the Right Flank.  The Left Flank does not suit his attacking attributes and should not be played there.  We loose half-a-man in doing this.

Robinson is more than capable to be an able replacement should Enrique not be available and Rodgers should not be afraid to play the youngster when needed.  Robinson has great attacking skills as a Wing Back and can only grow if given First Team game time.  He would most certainly not have been any worse than Kelly and had he played yesterday our attacking down both Flanks would have been far better without loosing out on defense.

Our Captain Gerrard looked as though he would have rather been someone else – anywhere but at the Hawthorns!  At one stage when on attack he received the ball and was running into Zone 17 with West Brom’s defense back tracking in every direction.  This gave us the best shot-on-goal option in the entire game but instead, Gerrard passes a long ball out of Zone 17 to Downing who is running down a blind alley towards the corner flag.  Pathetic mind set is all I can say in this regard.  As for his Captaincy, I would have expected to see him rallying (at least communicating) with his players once Agger was sent off and cajoling the Team onwards and upwards.  But instead he was the first to drop his shoulders and head and the rest quickly followed his example in unison.

Allen on debut was easily man-of-the-match for his overall work effort and performance stats.  The shinning light in the den of horrors and all bodes well for his future as a Liverpool player.  Well done to the Lad!

Suarez (bless his effort and tenacity) left his head and both feet at home when it came to his finishing touches.  My heart went out to him yesterday as he was the only out-and-out attacking player that looked as though he actually wanted to win the game for us.  Nevertheless, I wish he would count to three when on the ball in Zone 17.  His head and feet tend to react a couple of seconds before his brain has instructed them accordingly.   Suarez needs to move to Inside Right as his attacks and shots on goal are far more effective and devastating when he is attacking the goal from a diagonal or side-on position.

Borini who played Inside Left, had a mediocre game but through no fault of his own.  Because Johnson was ineffective on the Left Flank, Borini was not included in any Left Flank attacks.  All the attacking balls from Mid-Field tended to be passed out to Downing on the Right Flank which again contributed to Borini been somewhat excluded.  Nevertheless, Borini seemed rather hesitant and nervous in the rough and tough exchanges and for this reason together with the fact that he is a superb finisher he should be moved to Center Striker.

This would entail a front three of Suarez (Right), Borini (Center) and Assaidi (Left). 

I cannot help but suggest that if we sign either Clint Dempsey or Nuri Sahin (or both) that based on yesterday’s match performance, Gerrard would be the one relegated to the bench so as to accommodate one of these two signings.  I never thought I would find myself thinking this, but there, I’ve now said it.  Forgive me Stevie, but hopefully you will make me eat my words which I would rather have to do.

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Offline Hazell

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2012, 11:49:15 am »
Awful day yesterday, once we had 10 men after being behind it was always going to be tough. Played well up until that point though some of the problems from last season were still evident - unable to take the chances we create and dropping our heads after a certain point in the game. The latter is something we've lacked since Rafa's time and it might take some time for that to remedy.

Still, the first half was encouraging, we played some nice stuff and West Brom didn't do a lot until they scored and though the run up to the goal could have been avoided, it was an unstoppable shot. Second have started much the same way as West Brom were content to hold what they had - and then Skrtel slipped and Agger 'fouled' Long - who was going down like that all day and Dowd was his usual horrible self - and then we just lost any confidence we had, despite the save.

As said, the first half was encouraging, we moved the ball well and created a few opportunities but went behind to a wonder goal. Didn't think it affected us too much but once Long won his penalty and Agger got sent off, we let our heads drop. Still some of the same wastefulness that was evident through last season.

Still, it was the first league game of the season under a new manager and we obviously need to get better but some of the reactions to the loss have been crazy. I hope Rodgers is given the time in this job, the club's (and some of the fans to an extent) been too quick hasty in recent years. Long way to go yet.
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Offline DyingAtheist

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2012, 11:54:20 am »
Obviously not a great start to the season, but most of us realised this wasn't going to be an overnight process, and the fact is if we happen to beat City at Anfield this will suddenly seem like a blip.
I do worry people are going to read far too much into this. Rodgers and the team (although some of the players need to sort themselves out sharpish) will need time to gel and develop.

Offline BazC

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2012, 11:56:37 am »
I agree with most of that yorky- for most of the first half we were looking like we were in control. But there was one thing, and I don't know if I'm misreading it here- but our defence didn't seem to be a solid unit yesterday. Of course this was the case after the sending off, but the sending off itself was just one of the symptoms of it- and they were apparent all game for me. You mentioned Lucas, but Skrtel and Agger didn't seem to be their solid selves when the ball was on the deck, and I don't know if the cover from midfield was there either. It seemed a bit chaotic at times and West Brom did create chances from them. It was epitomised by both penalties. The first one it's obvious why I say that I think, but the second one was surprising because normally Skrtel's first to those balls. In fact, he's been called too aggressive at times because of how he'll deal with those situations normally. But yesterday he gets well and truly caught out and gives away a foul in a split second because he's 2nd to the ball.

I'm hoping it was a case of a lack of mental and physical fitness, getting slightly caught out by a buzzing home team and enterprising Shane Long- he had a great game and pretty much single handedly destroyed our game which was impressive in a way.

I agree with Lucas perhaps finding out that he's got to get back into the swing of things in the PL, but I think maybe there were a few more players who found that out yesterday.

One thing I'd disagree with was Suarez' header. I just don't think he times it well enough - I've seen it the once only (didn't want to watch MOTD last night), but he did seem to jump too early and by the time the ball came to him it was always going to be hard to control. But even then, if we give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, there were still at least a couple of other instances where he should have buried it. I do like the idea of him being more of a peripheral attacker. Firstly because of this apparent inconsistency of being able to finish chances. Secondly, because he's so direct he just goes straight for goal wherever he picks the ball up- and gets a lot of joy when he does it from out wide. He'd certainly get into more goal scoring positions than the likes of Downing and Joe Cole, who seem to be the other options for the wide attackers. A front 3 of Gerrard, Suarez and Borini would be more interesting than the front 3 yesterday in my opinion. I just don't rate Downing as an effective player personally, but do hope he can 'find himself' in this new Liverpool team- I'm certainly not going to expect it though. In terms of the midfielder taking Gerrard's spot in yesterday's line up, I'd like to see more of Henderson and Shelvey playing between Lucas/Allen and the attackers.

As Rodgers said yesterday, there'll be a few more games like this on the way. And he's right. Everyone's still learning about things in this new team. We have a young manager bringing in new ideas to a young team. As time goes on and this unit works hard and goes through experiences like yesterday, they'll become a more cohesive team.



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Offline kennedy81

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2012, 12:03:23 pm »
One thing that really struck home to me yesterday, was the fact that Rodgers style of play is not simply something that the players can be just told to do.
It must become habit, an unconscious thing. And habits take time to form.
Joe Allen's performance yesterday was the most obvious example of this. While we were oohing and ahhing at his game yesterday, for him it was just another day at the office. Simple, patient passing. Working the opposition, bending and straining them until something gives and gaps appear which we can exploit. Then pressing hard when we loose the ball, something I thought we could have done better yesterday.

Compare this to Gerrard's game. Too often, he was going for the killer pass when a simple, square ball would have sufficed. We give the ball away and we're back to square one. This is especially important when we go a goal behind. The players need to learn to stick to the game plan, not panic and get rushed. During our heydays, it was a cliche to say that Liverpool were at their most dangerous when we went a goal behind. We've lost that in recent years, and all too often heads drop to easily for my liking. The stats regarding games won when we went a goal behind last season bear this out and it need rectifying. Not an easy task when trying to instil a new philosophy which requires level heads and patience.

I thought the first half, we were really bossing it for much of it. Suarez was giving them nightmares, Johnson was getting into great areas, and I even thought Downing had his moments. On another day, we could have gone in at the break a couple of goals to the good, but a cracker from Cera had us reeling instead.
One thing that worried me was that Suarez seemed to let the ludicrous yellow card for dissent (towards a linesman the other side of the pitch) get to him a little. I hope there's not a persecution complex forming there, and he can shake these things off in future. The spark seemed to go out of his game a little after that.
I couldn't help but notice when Long gave the same linesman an earful of abuse, not 5 feet from his face not long after, there wasn't a dicky from Dowd, who clearly isn't fit to be refereeing a premier league game. Agger's foul was sloppy, but still looked outside of the box. As for Skrtel's 'foul'...had it happened in the center circle, it would surely have been given the other way, had a competent ref been in charge.

But these are the kind of things that are really going to test this new philosophy. Sticking to the game plan when things aren't going your way, and we're obviously just not quite tuned into that mindset just yet. But I still think it will come. I was gutted for Rodgers yesterday, he didn't deserve that.
Another thing we should remember is that the opposition's coach had been our assistant coach for the past season and a half. He knew where our weaknesses were and how to exploit them, though I bet he couldn't believe his luck the way things went their way. I was pleased for him, he seems a decent fella and I hope he has a good season.

I'm just really glad we will have those extra European games this season. We need games and we need time for this new style to become second nature. So roll on Hearts. Maybe we'll get a look at this Assaidi fella? And for the love of nora, please someone remember to stick the ball in the bloody net once in a while.

Offline RichardM

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2012, 12:08:47 pm »
Far, FAR too early to judge. However it's never nice to lose like that and due to our last 3 seasons in the PL it fills me with sincere doubt. However I have faith and hopefully a good win on Thursday will get everyone's confidence back for the City game.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2012, 12:09:34 pm »
What is it they say about madness?

Doing the same thing time and again and expecting different results?

Well, Carragher's still too slow, too old and too 'keen' to be playing top flight football, Joe Cole is still unfit and still looks like he took up the game at the age of 28 and Suarez is still missing chances he should be scoring.

Now I know Rodgers is new. But did he really think he could turn back time and make Jamie Carragher good again? Does he really believe that he could awaken the 19 year old Joe Cole from his comatose state and does he honestly feel that he can instill some composure in to a player notoriously lacking in it?

A bit of research (and dare I say it) common sense would determine that the first two of those 3 are lost causes.

For a man so determined to push Carroll out of the door before he'd even taken a look at him he seems to be all too willing to attempt to play Carra and Cole and expect different results, what have they done to earn those chances? How good can Cole and Carragher be in training? Because they're certainly not pulling up any trees on matchday.

Just find myself asking, why?

Neither player was to blame for this defeat. But it's madness to continue to plough those furrows. Even this early in the season. It doesnt fill me with confidence going forward.

Offline LiverpoolKopKings

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2012, 12:16:45 pm »
Suarez is good at everything bar finishing. Not having a dig at him, absolutely not. I am absolutely thrilled that we have him. But the truth is simply that we need a striker that is good only at one thing and one thing only, to put them in, full stop.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2012, 12:22:46 pm »
We had a few decent chances to score first half, looked quite comfortable apart from the odd break from them and then Gera hits a wonder strike. We started well second half, the sending off killed us.

When you're down to 10 you have to expect a difficult time of it and of course it’s very hard to make any sort of accurate conclusion once it's 10 v 11, given the structure of the whole team changes.

Bad start but, in all honesty, pretty much everything went against us.

Only real gripe was not playing Robinson and Johnson as full-backs.
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Offline Asam

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2012, 12:25:31 pm »
Far, FAR too early to judge. However it's never nice to lose like that and due to our last 3 seasons in the PL it fills me with sincere doubt. However I have faith and hopefully a good win on Thursday will get everyone's confidence back for the City game.

we've had the same problems for the last few seasons

We don't create enough clear cut chances
We're not efficient at finishing them when we do
Certain players only show character in the big games
We lack leadership
Our options from the bench have little impact

BR has a massive job on his hands but all of the above are long standing problems, we don't play as a team and we don't have enough quality in the final third.