Author Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed  (Read 767982 times)

Offline Una cerveza, por favor

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #320 on: July 20, 2010, 01:59:20 am »
paranoia and doom mongering about the club thats 400 mil in debt, growing by 50 mil a year and unable to pay those debts  compared with teh euphoria of signing of Joe Cole on a free -yep thats a balanced assessment - there should be rejoicing in the steets of Anfield tonight - we've signed the new Maradonna - he's the missing link - no doubt he's going to play left back, defensive midfield and left wing, hopping up and down that left flank on his one good leg like a gud un and paying off the debt from his own bank account:)
Good point.

While I do love the signing of Cole, we must not lose focus regarding the ownership situation. Not that it needs reminding of in every thread, but this is aimed at the 'Well well, what do you have to say about Purslow now!' brigade.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 02:02:03 am by Una cerveza, por favor »
C'est la vie.

Offline Red Cez

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #321 on: July 20, 2010, 02:11:11 am »

Brilliant post there Chopper, well said.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.

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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #322 on: July 20, 2010, 09:57:13 pm »
Hatton bankrupt the city not Thatcher, the government reduced the amount of financial control by local councils, Hatton went back on the deal and over spent, thus bankrupting the city (a policy that is still in place to this day for central government) and then Hatton became what he supposedly once detested the most, that's why he's loved so much by all our fellow scousers, but I'm sure you know that, don't you.

As for the rest, you've plainly missed what my post was and is about, but if you don't get it, you don't get it. There's no shame in that.

That offer still stands by the way, don't worry though I'll still be able to spot you, you'll be the one sporting the massive tit on your head.

And if your up to it, feel free to quote me directly next time.

/quote]

heh your a laugh aren't you, in a sort of falling over and breaking your back type of way

why exactly did the clown that was Hatton bankrupt the city? was it on a whim? was it out of some perverse sense of self flagulation or was it because the city was screwed, when central government decided to back tracked on its promises of spending, when it made arbitry and unsupportable cuts to labour run city councils around the country because the powers that be decided to make an example of a city, just as it did with the miners, to prove a point? Thatcher was a vindictive, evil woman who used her position to despoil the country of every national asset it possessed just to stay in power.

Hatton was a horrible and despised individual no doubt but the fight against Thatcher wasn't his, it was a reflection of what the people believed in - the City wanted social policies, it wanted to support its own people, thats what it voted for, not Hatton and his suits and smug grin. 

the miners strike and our cities fight against Thatcher are not something to be ashamed of - the fight was right - the result was not - it was and still is a disgrace the way this city was treated and the way the miners were beaten back to work by a police force 'only obeying orders' .

I presume you also blame the miners for the destruction of their industry and the dockers for the death of theirs - miltants to a man, no doubt and all to blame for the corrupt, vindictive policies of central government that saw manufacturing destroyed in this country and never to return, the same policies that allow banks to plunge the country a trillion into debt but blame public servants and people on benefits for the debt not the rich, greedy bankers on their fat bonus's who pissed the money away in the biggest casino in the world?

the point of your post that we should be grateful for the massive signing of Joe Cole, that not everything is bad, that there needs to be some balance - that you're bored with the debt thing and its time to change the record - i get it, I get the lack of bottle, the holier than thou, it'll be alright because we are Liverpool arrogance - I get it, I get it every day from the ostriches at work - I just dont agree with it and I dont agree with you - I can live with that, I'm sure you can too







The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Online John C

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #323 on: August 27, 2010, 08:30:47 pm »
I think this from the mad doc deserves a place in here.
It's hard to keep up the facade mate, I'm only human. 
To be honest, I've had more than enough of all of this, of wondering whether or not a player is 'willing to stay' at Liverpool FC, it's just such an alien concept to me.  Not just as a Liverpool supporter, but a football supporter, knowing how massive it is to play for Liverpool FC makes it impossible for me to figure out why the likes of Benayoun, Crouch, and Bellamy would want out of the club to play elsewhere in England.
Same with Mascherano, he's in a position where he can be a footballing legend and a catalyst for this club to go on and become great once again, but instead he just fancies joining a Barca team at it's pinnacle, a place where he will never be remembered, and if he is remembered then the chances are it will be as supporters reminisce the point at which the palace of Barcelona came tumbling down around them.  There's no glory in what he's doing, no passion, just cash with fuck all tax taken out of it.
That's fine, if that's what you're about (and the MSI and West Ham thing suggests it is) then fair play, on you go.  But I'm a footballing romantic, and I like the idea of players being motivated by achievements and their role in the annuls of history at a particular club.  That's the aim for this club and Hodgson now, forget the status of players, forget it, I'm past big name signings now.  I would much rather we bought a League Two central midfielder for £800,000 who understood the magnitude of the job at Liverpool, and was happy to earn £40,000 a week and gave 100% every week because he loved this club and it's fans and respected it's history.
Signing £20m superstars always comes with a drawback, and it's usually a mixture of their ego and bastard agents who cannot keep their mouths shut about how they could earn £8,000 a week more if they move somewhere else.
For someone earning £1,500 a month, I can see the lure of wanting to boost your income by £8,000 per week.  But I cannot fathom what a player on £40,000 a week thinks when he suddenly realises that he cannot give his all unless he's offered £48,000 a week.  What on earth do these wankers do with the extra money?  Unless he's developing his own space programme, I just think that extra money is turning gold plated taps into platinum plated taps.
Well fuck you, I'll find a park player who could win a challenge against every one of these bastards, I guarantee you that.  I just wish it was Liverpool who decided to buck the trend and impose a wage cap on players.  Again, going back to the socialism and Shankly ideals, sharing the work and sharing the rewards, everyone is paid the same.  Reign in all the scouts looking at foreign and superstar targets and just have them scouring the UK leagues, we KNOW there's top talent around, it's a country of 40,000,000 people, there's top players being overlooked every week somewhere, not being given a second chance. 

I hate modern football, and I hate modern footballers.  Spineless wankers for the most part, fucking VH1-induced, moping, moody, metrosexual twats.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #324 on: August 27, 2010, 08:33:03 pm »
I think this from the mad doc deserves a place in here.

That's a polemic. Rather good, too.

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #325 on: September 1, 2010, 02:27:43 am »
should have started a sensible thread this, maybe on causes and symptoms 

Good read that.........cheers for posting it Al.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Offline Gifted Right Foot

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #326 on: September 1, 2010, 02:35:59 am »
should have started a sensible thread this, maybe on causes and symptoms

Brilliant.  Well said  :wellin

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #327 on: September 1, 2010, 06:52:19 am »
Sobering reading that, but yeah - horses for courses. The course being 'managed decline'.

Offline Shabby

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #328 on: September 1, 2010, 06:57:01 pm »
That was a good read. Here's another.

To be honest I'm finding it hard to relate to the club at the moment, it's becoming like any other club i.e. shit. They disgust me and I don't say that lightly.

The reason I'm such a proud Red (or used to be) is not because we are the most successful club in terms of major trophies, but that we did it our way. We were the best, but it didn't turn us into Billy Big Bollocks. Liverpool always had a family feel and did 'cute' things (charity games and the like), but they also didn't pander to the media (ever as far as I can recall - compare that to Broughton's response to Rafa's sacking) and we had the true 'winner' mentality. Again, not as in just the trophy-lifting per se, though that was nice, but more the Ronnie Moran "those medals son, that was last season" kind of attitude, or Paisley's "one year we came second" quip. Clever, humble and not a tad wankerish. Across Europe, into new hostile territories we showed the world what Liverpool and Liverpool FC could do - be the fucking best, against the odds, in our own way. We had the likes of John Smith and Peter Robinson as true ambassadors, with immense integrity but also great skill and capabilities - you felt they were one step ahead and they were; it was comforting and uniting.

I think the atmosphere these days may be ebbing away for a few reasons; for a start now you're watching 22 multi-millionaires play - even the ones you think 'get-it' and 'us' how can they really? Their life is a world away from yours or mine. Fans as people aren't quite as in the shit in general as they were, they go abroad every year, have more disposable income, can afford to do other things if they want, or worse you get those that can't afford to go the match period.

There is the media shite too - how our best manager in two decades had to put up with the shit he did, from the media last year deah oh fucking dear. And his own fans at the end who lap up everything as gospel "cos Aldo said it" well fuck me any chance of using that thing at the top of your spinal cord? The phone-ins and letters pages air and print controversial stuff because it's good for their ratings but it means every daft twat gets heard above the more reasoned, and patient opinions. That wouldn't matter if dicks like Broughton didn't pay any heed to it. Capello, untouchable pre-World Cup, shit Italian now. It's amazing how gullible, weak-willed, lazy and intellectually fat we have become as a fanbase - we were called the most knowledgeable fans in the game because once upon a time we didn't use to fall for this shit. I read some posters on here last year Rafa-bashing and I really, truly believe they think they can do better themselves - it's astonishing how arrogant and delusional that is.

For me, a really interesting human study recently was the number of posters on here who simply got bored of Fat Scouser's threads and threw a hissy fit about wanting to get on with some positives. What positives? Joe fucking Cole's arrival? That hints at laziness and apathy in my opinion, a sort of "it'll all be alright in the end, ya doom-mongers".

I laugh when people question the state of the club and posters come out with "Get behind Roy ffs, Rafa's gone" and other such bollocks. The club is poisonous at the moment and I suspect many fans don't quite feel comfy doing the seal impression - for one thing it must be hard to unite a chorus of support with twats like Purslow in attendance. How do you cheer wholeheartedly when the son of the owners e-mails "Blow me fuck face" to a fan? What do you do? What do you do when the manager is stabbed in the back by a Chief Exec who doesn't know jack-shit but was happy to mouth undermining shit to fans during a game about the last manager? Get on with it? Get on with what exactly - being shafted?

Some fans are mystified why Rafa is held in such affection. It could indeed be that people love Rafa FC and are pathetic - but it isn't; many fans feel that against the recent tide of this stomach-churning abdication of the club's core values that he was one man (a bloke from Spain ffs) who took our values to heart and turned us back into respected winners. We won, often in style, with two fingers up at the media. Still got booed.

I guess for some maybe it's all just too much effort for many people to be arsed. Sit in your seat, have a pie, chat shit, moan a lot and/or pass us the remote, what's Jamie saying about us now chomp chomp, put the phone-in on....

The bright spots in this whole pile of shite has been the efforts of those organising the letter/e-mail campaigns, the banners, the protest kit etc. Well done to them. Maybe there is life in the old dog yet?
£15m? It seems low, but what people have to remember is that the fee is irrelevant.

Offline scatman

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #329 on: September 1, 2010, 07:07:56 pm »
those last 2 posts were brilliant, and mae me feel sad
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #330 on: September 1, 2010, 07:24:57 pm »
The last post is just awesome. The truth, all in all, that´s what football on the top level became, it´s a circus..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline PattoLFC

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #331 on: September 1, 2010, 07:39:51 pm »
Those two posts are class, really puts things into perspective for you.  Cheers for posting

Offline SP

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #332 on: September 3, 2010, 09:59:07 am »
That's what kills me. But the blame has to be spread around if we're to be honest.

It's absolutely true that acquisitions of Johnson and Aquilani falsely inflate the availability of funds to Rafa after that hard sprint to the finish line. Both deals were financially structured in such a way that we received *more* in talent than we could have gotten for other players. There is no doubt in my mind that these were Rafa deals to the core. Can you not imagine the meetings leading up to these acquisitions?

Rafa says "Get me Tevez etc." The answer is "He's too expensive, hottest thing on the market, and the Ayrabs have cash." Rafa says "OK then, how about you balance some debits with some credits and get me Johnson? They owe us cash, and you can engineer the balance sheet." The answer probably was "Yeah, ok, you know what, minus here plus there - yeah that can work." That leads onto the deal that we got for Aquilani. "This kid has talent. He can replace Xabi. And we can pay them in installments. We can pay those Italians from less than 2 seasons of CL qualification. They're probably willing to stagger the payments, since the boy's been injured for a while." Reasonable assumption, no? Certainly doesn't look anything like Purslow's dealings so far.

Anyway, Xabi was under contract, but wanted to leave, we all know that, and I think that was your starting point. We brought in, give or take, £30 million from his sale, by practically pimping our horny slut to the nightclub table with the drunkest bastard buying the most expensive bottles of champagne. How many teams managed to cash in on the second coming of Florentino Perez? Not many. We, impressively (and surprisingly!), managed to, as you succinctly put it, "hit" it.

But then it all fell apart. Impressive as he was in transfer dealings that summer, Rafa was outdone by a combination of strategic misjudgments, and rotten luck. On paper, banking 30m on Xabi and scraping the bottom of the Top Target Barrel by leveraging the acquisitions of Johnson and Aquilani should have been good enough to limit the loss column, and (can't believe I'm saying this) "steady the ship" after the impact losses of Hyypia, Alonso and Arbeloa, with 17 mature Liverpool seasons between them.

But Rafa made two crucial mistakes. Now I don't care who slates me for this, I need to get it out.

The first mistake - in hindsight of course - was selecting Jamie Carragher over Sami Hyypia. It's not hard to imagine his hands being tied over this one. Two starting spots at centreback. Two talented kids competing to cement one of those spots for the next half decade. Two veterans looking to cement the other. Agger's untouchable. Skrtel's cheap, aggressive, and can be placated for another year or two. The other two want to start. The other two *can* do a starting job on *any* team in the world. Neither is willing to play backup.

But Rafa picked the wrong legend. It's not hard to imagine why, and I at the time didn't for a minute think Carra should have been shuttled out. Carra's a hometown legend. He's not shit, far from it, he's a menace. But Carra finished the previous season on the lowest of notes - aggressively going after a teammate in a match that meant nothing (how Rafa must have had a sense of foreboding when that happened) and Sami cried before leaving. The first few matches of the new season, again in perfectly neutral and honest hindsight, saw Carra completely unsettle the backline in a way that was almost impossible to imagine, and put the entire season under pressure right out the fucking gates. He tackled Mash, broke Skrtel's jaw, and got beaten to two headers that ended up costing us 6 points to two teams that finished above us. The pressure was on us, instead of on them, from the get go.

I'm not suggesting that last season was Carra's fault, far from it. Hindsight suggests, though, that Hyypia would have on both of those headers. He would have been good for a few goals. He had leadership qualities. He was the best damn header of a ball I've ever fucking seen in my life, especially when you needed it the most. We got killed on set pieces at the opening stages of that season, and we got no goals from the back two. An unsettled back line is like a cancer - it spreads, and infects everyone. Think back to Johnson against Arsenal. It was coming. We all knew it. Sami scored Champions League goals. Ya think we could have used a few?

The other mistake he made was betting the house on Aquilani's fitness. Midfield creativity was shellshocked by the loss of Alonso.

In hindsight, again, I can maybe see was he was probably trying to do. Hands tied. No cheap replacements. Hold the middle with Lucas and Mascherano: Mash wins the ball, and Lucas gets it shortly, safely, and effectively to the flanks. The right wing had Johnson and Kuyt -perfectly balanced offensively and defensively that is, in a devastatingly deceptive way. The left wing wasn't as tight, but had, how you say, options. Three international LBs, two of whom could do a job at LM, and go forward. Then Benayoun, Riera, Babel as perfectly diverse offensive options - dribbling, crossing and speed - for whatever we may need. Of fucking course none of them is fucking Messi, but we couldn't afford to gamble on freezing out all three and bringing in Little Lionel.

Until Aquilani became fit, we'd go down the flanks. Under the circumstances he was operating in, it's pretty ingenious in hindsight. Course, he never bet on everyone laughing at Lucas, and Carra mistrusting him to the point of preferring to punt the ball over Lucas's head rather than *just fucking give him the bloody ball*.

Rafa was also undone by being dealt the most ridiculous hands I've seen in a very long time. First, we had to play two of our rivals for CL spots in the first three games. We stumbled out the gates, and Carra had a major hand in costing us both matches - Spurs and Villa - assisted by Gerrard with a fucking stupid penalty. Our leaders didn't lead - I'll go to war with those two lads, and you all know that - but they both helped dig the most massive of holes right off the starting gates.

We righted the ship for a short period of time, but on September 29th, Stevan Jovetic ripped us for 2 goals in the Champions League in Florence. Mascherano was injured and Rafa chose Aurelio to play next to Lucas in the middle of the park. Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Benayoun, Aurelio, Riera, Johnson, Reina, Lucas and Skrtel started - strong team, djes? Not defensive, not negative, djes? Even with a "creative" guy in midfield. We controlled possession - 61% to 39% statistics show - and even won 10 corners to their 4. Away. But Jovetic killed us, playing as an AM coming up the middle, right where Mash would have put him out like a fucking cigarette butt.

By the way, as a side note, Jovetic scored 5 more goals the rest of the season after his brace against us, and he's out until next summer. From September 29, 2009, until probably August 2011, he will have scored 7 goals over 2 years, 2 of them against us in one big match. Also, how many goals has Benoit Assou Ekkotto ever scored?

Anyway, we lost to Chelsea next, which under normal circumstances would be perfectly acceptable. It's not like anyone (expect us) had beaten them at home. Then the beachball happened, and the entire fucking world was laughing at Rafa. Then Lyon beat us 2-1 at home, with a 90th minute kick in the teeth. I often wonder about the longterm impact of that winner, and how much it influenced that fear, that morose expectation, that was manifested in Glen Johnson imploding against Arsenal the match after next. Keep that Lyon game at 1-1, and we probably don't get stabbed by Arsenal. Build on something, no, as opposed to try and stop the bleeding? Debatable, at least.

After Arsenal came Fulham, where we realized with horror that we had become accustomed to hard luck implosions, as if we were carrying a brass King Kong on our backs. Kick ass, come from behind, squeeze every drop out of Torres, maintain a 60-40 possession ratio away, and still lose, with two red cards. Typical, we thought. If we as fans thought that Lyon, Brum, and City served to reinforce the doom, how do we think the squad felt?

I digress.

Let me try and rap up this wayward rant by going back to your point about funds and saying this. You're right. Had we pushed on, and spent more money to replace the 17 years of Liverpool leadership we lost in Hyypia, Alonso and Arbeloa, we'd have pissed the league. That is undeniable. But the fact that we didn't isn't only a function of the owners chickening out from catching the falling knife. In spite of the owners, we still could have done it, if it weren't for our manager, our leaders on the pitch, and shitty fucking luck combing in the most horrific of ways.

A team that loses 6 league games in two full seasons doesn't suddenly end up fucking 7th without the most perfect of storms. What's truly depressing is that we blamed it all on one man, an honorable, intelligent, caring, cunning, professional man - a man that oversaw the greatest influx of cash this mighty club has ever seen - and watched silently as he walked alone.

Offline PaisleyPrint

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #333 on: September 3, 2010, 10:27:12 am »
Thanks for posting that here SP - just read that in the Bebe thread.

Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #334 on: September 3, 2010, 11:43:24 am »
Yeah, only on RAWK can a post of that quality, pop up in a thread which has no relation to it at all! Mad place, this. :D

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #335 on: September 3, 2010, 12:01:31 pm »

A team that loses 6 league games in two full seasons doesn't suddenly end up fucking 7th without the most perfect of storms. What's truly depressing is that we blamed it all on one man, an honorable, intelligent, caring, cunning, professional man - a man that oversaw the greatest influx of cash this mighty club has ever seen - and watched silently as he walked alone.

That sums it up for me, great post!!
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline NeoAdjuvant

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #336 on: September 3, 2010, 12:57:51 pm »
3 fantastic posts on this page. Cheers lads.
Quote
But like the jet engine, there's sadly very little this country does better than having the raw materials to do something truly amazing that would benefit the whole of society only to piss it away due to a total lack of long term thinking and/or suspicion of anything European.

Offline deadlybuzz

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #337 on: September 3, 2010, 11:37:00 pm »
El C is on fire today. Taken from the Lucas thread:

Quote
He doesn't do it to anywhere near the extent Busquets managers. He seems to try, granted. I've seen him looking very static, having made an initial short pass, on many occasions.

I wasn't comparing him to Busquets. I asked a simple question. If he isn't all about pass, move, and maintain possession, what exactly is he about?

Quote
However, I actually think that his level would go up significantly, were Carragher to be dropped like a bad habit. I'm sure I'll be dismissed as 'hyperbolic' for that suggestion, though.

Not by me. Carra is simultaneously one of the best desperation defenders and one of the worst passers of a ball I've ever seen.

Is Lucas the right type of player for this system we have right now, with the Carras, Gerrards and Poulsens around him? I personally think he'd flourish in a different type of system, a system that, shamefully having to admit, is a prettier type of football than we're setting up play.

Watch this video. Count the number of times the ball actually leaves the ground. Note how the opposing team starts out energetic enough, and ends up just chasing the ball in tired packs of 2 or 3. Watch how when the constant barrage of short, "useless" passes leads the opposition to sway and move in increasingly tired packs of three, like a group of puppets on a string. yes, it's only the USA they're playing against, but tactically, the Brazilians used them like dirty towels. Just what the English didn't do. The Brazilians played patient, short passing, possession football, and used moments of brilliance from the right players to kill the game off.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/7hXPN-M5iPo?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/7hXPN-M5iPo?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/EZCaC5nPJeI?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/EZCaC5nPJeI?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>


When you're done, you can watch the second half too, but at some point, watch it over again, and imagine every other attack started not with measured little passes crawling up the pitch, but heavy footed hoofs to the front men. Think about how much more energy Lucas's teammates would have to expend if they constantly had to latch onto wayward throughballs, longballs, Hollywood balls and then suddenly stop, turn back and defend the inevitable giveaways. He'd be labeled shit in a system like that (!) because the match would pass him by at times. In an alternative world, he'd be rotating with Xabi and Mash, behind Gerrard and Aquilani, in front of Skrtel and Agger, and between Johnson and Aurelio. Instead, we're on a runaway train to Hoofville with Carra as conductor (remember the other day when Lucas kept shouting "Carra! Carra!" only to get a neckache, and slumped shoulders by the end of it?), and we're slating the kid because he's not searing 60 yard passes and scoring from his own half. Contrary to popular wisdom, that's not what made Xabi great. In fact, Xabi's worst two years here were littered with wayward Hollywood balls that missed the target. No, lads, short passing is king.

Finally, for what it's worth, I think people go overboard on the Lucas bashing without stopping to remember that he cost only 6m, one third of Anderson, Hargreaves, or Aquilani. Why do we constantly have to dig around for negatives, or compare him to fucking Busquets, when 3 Premiership players three times his price have put in nowhere near the 125 appearances he's managed for us? Kid earns his money, that's for sure. Love that about Lucas. We boo him, while perched at the top of the table, and he knuckles down and plays harder. Is that a common quality amongst modern footballers? We sang our guts out for Masch and he fucked off anyway.

And for a lad that just turned 23, he's gained massive experience already. Brazilian football, Premiership football, Champions League football, Olympic football (90 minutes every game), and most likely, the way the team is shaping up, Brazilian World Cup football in 4 years time. Just two of those matches should put paid to the accusations that opposing teams love seeing him on the teamsheet. He put in 180 minutes in two matches against the Mancs that we won by a combined score of 6-1, and they fucking hated every minute of playing against him.

It would be a colossal mistake to write him off based on rabble rousing folks like the one you describe next to you at the match. He's coming of age in one of the worst periods in our history. The entire team is infected; while Lucas is not immune to criticism, he's certainly not the cause of our apathy, like a lot of people would have you believe. He's a symptom of it.
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Offline cjmclean

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #338 on: September 5, 2010, 08:07:40 pm »
Bump

Offline IanTBear

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #339 on: September 5, 2010, 08:20:19 pm »
Brilliant stuff on this page, in particular El C's.

Summed up perfectly why I'm still pissed of over whats gone on this summer.

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Offline redtrev

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #340 on: September 5, 2010, 09:29:22 pm »
Fairvplay el c I would imagine your views articulate perfectly what slot on Here think. My view anyway. Nice one mate!

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #341 on: September 5, 2010, 11:10:29 pm »
Fantastic recent posts ! All of them , from the carra comments, on transfers, shitty owners and Lucas, all great read.

amazing so many of RAWk dont even mention of carra hoofing or the hollywood balls of gerrad and alonso, or mascherano tigerish tackels but loyalty to rafa only and not the club,or insua and aquilani being hoofed out way before they were given more opportunities.

so many behind the scenes terirble tales and the only ones that gets focussed are lucas or Rafa's terrible man managemnt skills on the players or the media.

lucas being compared to busquets when so many seasons i urge all fans to compare him to anderson denilson or mikel obi , and whether these other players do 'alonso' passes or even make the brazilian team! except mikel who is plays for nigeria

i'll support hodgson as much as i have supported rafa or even houllier or evans etc.

but kinda a bit weird that too may transfer ......ehs?? has been brought up before the transfer window closes, we didnt get this much with Rafa before? insua and aquilani out on loan, buying konchesky and poulsen, getting screwed by barcelona and getting masc on the cheap...yes it is cheap compared to how much we got for alonso!
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #342 on: September 5, 2010, 11:13:45 pm »
Great thread this. Saves having to look through all the crap to find the gems. Thanks for the posters and the quoters in this case.
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #343 on: September 6, 2010, 01:47:16 am »
This is a terrific thread, and that Lucas comment above was spot on.
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Offline Arcadian

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #344 on: September 6, 2010, 05:44:57 am »

Just found the thread and am loving it.

*                         *                           *                            *                         *

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #345 on: September 19, 2010, 07:32:16 pm »
I'm not criticizing Hodgson because he was brought in by this board - I'm only suggesting that he doesn't get the automatic support that I gave other managers because of it. That's not something I can explain, it's just my own personal feelings. I've personally been against many decisions that the board and the owners have taken. It would take something special for me to line up unquestioningly behind one of their decisions, because their track record is, frankly, shit.

Like I suggested, and you picked up on, Hodgson's football results on the pitch may take me from "uncomfortable observer of Hodgson's appointment" to "outright proponent of the Hodgson Way". So far, he's really given me little to suggest the change was for footballing reasons, that we got a superior manager in the footballing sense for the 11.5 million quid we spent to upgrade managers. But football's an afterthought.

Business wise, the direction is alarming. The squad is getting older in a hurry due to the age of his recruits and the age of the Rafa-era players that Hodgson has chosen to keep, and the money's running out. We'll have to replace Konchesky, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carra, Maxi, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Kyrgiakos, and Aurelio within the next 3 years. Even Torres, Meireles and Johnson are the wrong side of 25. Even if this flock of players starts bringing in results, we're gonna be fucked soon. We don't have any Patos or Messis on our team. The youngest player who has a claim to the word "starter" is Lucas, and he's the most picked on member of this team, and I don't expect him to be around for much longer. Insua is gone. Ayala is on loan. Mikel San Jose starts for Bilbao. Two kids were swapped for Konchesky. Nemeth is in Greece. The Riojas bought for 2015 are being popped without any thought to Best Drinking Date.

But getting back to Rafa - I disagree with your statement that "we" thought he should have gone for the jugular when he "settled" for something less. Rafa had the right approach - first become dead hard to beat, then worry about converting the draws into wins. Everyone bitched about the draws in 2008/2009 - well I'd give my left arsecheek for that many draws every season. Every season Baz. I would take that many draws every season. Let me say that again so that there is no confusion. I would take that many draws every league campaign.

You know why? Because Rafa had it right - with that many draws, and taking something like 14 points from top 4 teams (that's sick) we still had the most points that any second place team ever had. If we did that every year, we'd be within shouting distance of the title every season. Most of us just cannot wrap our limited intellect around the fact that it's not about one hand; it's about getting to the final table. Just because you create chances to see a flop, it doesn't mean you go all in every hand. It's a campaign. Fuck going for it every minute, instead be hard to beat and consistent. Take the points from home/away matchups against top opposition. That's it, djes. You don't need to go for broke against Stoke. Most times, Kuyt's opener counts, and Gerrard's shot goes in off the post. Meanwhile, you accumulate a war chest from Champions League revenue, and spend a percentage of it on a lot - a lot - of cheap, promising kids.

Instead, we did what Rafa always said not to do. We pushed harder than we should have in 2009/2010 when we didn't really have a chance at winning the hand, lost when it was obvious we weren't gonna win, took that as an indictment of Rafa and the whole fucking system, and then tilted madly. Victims of emotion. Pathetic really.

I can't speak for most people, Baz, but my discomfort with how we look now isn't about plucking random results and comparing them. It's about the entire tournament, indeed, the entire portfolio, not an isolated case by case comparison. Rafa made it so that you didn't give a shit which fucking ball emerged of Platini's jar. On any given day, Rafa's Rojas - a portfolio full of individual results that may look questionable in isolation - looked like something I'd put my money on. On any given day. You can't say that now. Would you fancy something out of an away trip to Inter Milan right now? Would you fuck. He'd fucking rip us to shreds, then look at his watch, the fat fuck.

Whether he bought Alonso for 10m or sold him for 30m, whether he bought Mascherano or sold Sissoko, whether Crouch fired blanks or became prolific for England, whether he swapped Josemi for Kromkamp (sp?) or Dudek for Reina, whether he played Gerrard on the right or off Torres, whether he "went for it" or "settled for a draw", whether he won in Istanbul or made 2 finals in 3 years, whether he stuck with Bellamy or bought Torres, on or off, whether his team conceded 4 to Arshavin or hit Chelsea for 4 at the Bridge - Rafa earned my respect, and my support because the longterm results were overwhelmingly positive. Random decisions and results mean nothing.

If Rafa were a fund, I'd invest in it. It looks like it would feature consistent performance, profits, and dividends - possibly boring, but those are usually stellart investments. I didn't disagree with any single individual thing Rafa did, especially not fucking subs or silly shit like "going for it" because I knew that over time, I was in the right hands. Day to day decisions may have indeed been random; but the long term results were on an upward trajectory. In his shittiest year, he came within minutes of a European final. That's long term results smoothed out for ya.

Unfortunately, some of us sound like folks who sold a longterm winner at the first sign of trouble, hopped onto a risky stock, and are now peering intently at the price over the last week, while alarm bells are ringing on the one year chart. "Oh it'll be alright, Rafa lost at Trafford too, it's not so bad," they say.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Offline Hazell

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #346 on: September 19, 2010, 07:44:12 pm »
That's an excellent post on Rafa El C. Sums up how I feel. Though it's simple for me regarding Hodgson - I'll support him until there are reasons not to - everything else you've said hits the nail on the head.
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Offline INABITSKI

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #347 on: September 19, 2010, 09:27:40 pm »


Skipping through the thread I would have missed that later on. Nice one for posting it up.


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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #348 on: September 19, 2010, 09:33:11 pm »
El C is dominating the the quality/important posts of late! Came in here to pop that last one myself. All I can say is that is exactly, 100%, how I felt about the entire thing.

Somewhat related is also that today is the first time in years I was resigned to defeat before it even happened. I guess it relates to the past, like El C mentions, the fact that we had a direction and overall positive trend. Sure there were speedhumps along the way but overall I had hope. As sad as it is, that hope is all but washed away.

Sorry for the ramble but yeah, excellent post El C.
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Offline rusty-la

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #349 on: September 19, 2010, 09:39:23 pm »
That was a good read. Here's another.

All Reds should read that.

Thats so much more than a good read, thats gold dust that.

Great job RedinExile.


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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #350 on: September 19, 2010, 09:43:18 pm »
Quality, El C, sums up my feelings too. Especially like the bit 'if Rafa was a funds, i'd invest in it'. Said that when people where questioning whether he should get 'one more season': I'd give him many more. Because he's building us up for the future. Last season meant nothing. But he's gone now, and with every passing day more and more people seem to fall for the media re-writing of our history and subscribe to the idea that it was, somehow 'all Rafa's fault.'.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #351 on: September 19, 2010, 10:17:41 pm »
I think this deserves to be in here as well...

My biggest problem with Roy so far is that he appears to be making all the stubborn "mistakes" Rafa made. He makes odd substitutions and looks hellbent on playing his players.

I can not for the life of me understand the tactical failures of those substitutions today. Taking Meireles off (although I think someone mentioned he picked up a knock) for Jovanovic, putting Agger in for Konchesky and Ngog for Maxi. Changing the entire left flank of our team when we are weak there to begin with, but at that moment had the upper hand. They were stunned, all we had to do was go for the jugular. But he breaks up the (then) winning formula and completely offsets the balance of the team. Since he took off Meireles he should've stuck Lucas in and moved Gerrard up front with Torres.

And if there ever was "Babel time" that second goal was it. They were ours for the taking, they were looking shaky at the back and we needed to attack them directly, which just so happens to be Babel's only capability.

Now I'll support our manager, but I won't do it blindly. I have nothing to base it upon. Hodgson was brought in under the worst circumstances. Replacing the man that brought us European glory and title challenges and who was a big favourite, after reports that managers like Pellegrini, Deschampes and Hitzfeld were, up to a certain point, interested in the job. And biggest of all the undisputed King of the Kop wanted the job. Credit to Hogdson and all that, but when you are bottom on an (alleged) 5 man shortlist it's hard to strut along confident that the decision made was a purely footballing one.


I can accept that I may just be a head-in-the-sand ignorant, spoiled fan living on former glory and if so there's not a lot I can do about that and there sure as hell is a lot less that any of you can do about changing that. And I really don't give a shit if I am that unoriginal in bringing Rafa into it, but even at the absolute worst of times we always, always had something to look back on to find confidence.
When he first came here the only thing most people knew about him was that he won the league dominated by Real Madrid and Barcelona for the last half a century or so. And he was the man that came to Anfield and whose team, at times, made Liverpool look like an average Sunday league team. He was the man that brought us victories (some of them against all odds) against Chelsea, Arsenal, the Mancs, Juventus, Inter, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid. Who brought us 2 European finals in 3 years, an epic FA Cup final and many, many, many memorable wins against just about every team.
Even after a horrible, horrible game we could look back, with confidence, at the time we won at the Nou Camp, when we ended Chelsea's home streak, the 2 weeks where we scored 4 against Real Madrid and the Mancs and won Aston Villa 5-0 knowing deep down he was the man who could bring us back to that regardless of team sheets and odds.

Now we are in a situation where we stand on the brink of financial oblivion with a manager who has not won away since August 2009 (read that somewhere, if I'm wrong I stand corrected) and when he has been challenged so far as boss, failed tactically.

You can call me whatever you want. Doom monger, naysayer, ignorant, pessemistic, unsupporting or any other unoriginal thing you want. That's the way I see it, that's how I feel and there's not a single thing related to Liverpool Football Club at the moment that's telling me that it will change any time soon.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Degs

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #352 on: September 19, 2010, 10:35:49 pm »
The sad thing is it seems everybody who loves footy and the club and stops to think about what's going on is coming to the same conclusion independently.

I'm reserving judgement now, he's had 3 very tough games out of 5.  15 league games into the season I'll start moaning/praising, but at the minute the outcome isn't rosy and the posts above are striking a chord.

At the minute I've got this horrible sinking feeling, for the first time in a long time it's not just due to off the pitch events.

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #353 on: September 19, 2010, 11:11:57 pm »
I think this deserves to be in here as well...


You are right Steve.  It's right up there with El Camps post. 
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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #354 on: September 20, 2010, 03:12:53 am »
powerful stuff there from EL C.


I'm reserving judgement now, he's had 3 very tough games out of 5. 

true that, I think most thought we would have 5 or 6 points after 5 so we're playing to par, you're right that the next 10 will give a true test of where we're at. Even with The Derby and Chelsea at home you'd expect us to rise rapidly up the table and be in a decent position (5th maybe?) in the new year.

Obviously we could also be completely shit and lose to the likes of Blackburn and Bolton, Roy could be looking for a new job before he's finished his Christmas shopping.

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #355 on: September 20, 2010, 03:14:57 am »
Skipping through the thread I would have missed that later on. Nice one for posting it up.


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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #356 on: September 20, 2010, 03:26:38 am »
Crap I wanted to post El C and Aristotle's posts.
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #357 on: September 20, 2010, 03:35:37 am »
I haven’t posted on the takeover for some time, and for a variety of reasons - chief of which was a growing feeling that the information provided was actually helping Hicks and Gillett work out where the threat was coming from and concentrate their efforts on digging the dirt and launching a fightback. But today has been a woeful end to a depressing week and amid all the gloom I feel that people should know that all is not lost. Nonetheless, I won’t believe Hicks and Gillett have gone until their names no longer feature in our club profiles, so I’ll keep this as informative as possible without being specific. As ever, take it at face value or bin it. And as has always been the intention, I’ll spill the beans, fully, when it’s safe to do so.

Firstly, huge respect and support to the groups and individuals who continue to fight the good fight. There is no doubt that the campaigns work, and we should continue to keep on with the emails, petitions, adverts, T-shirts and all other forms of protest and direct action until Hicks and Gillett are gone.

But in no particular order, here are some things that are still worth knowing. The Rocket was launched. It scored a direct hit. Most of the regular posters on this forum are decent and humane people who take little pleasure in the suffering of others. Knowing that George Gillett has retreated to his mountain hideaway, shell-shocked, punch-drunk and waving the white flag will no doubt distress the many who have come to view this jovial old devil as one of our own.

Hicks and Gillett entered into a “Joint & Several” arrangement when they re-financed the time before last. That means they’re responsible for one another’s LFC obligations if one or the other defaults. As a result of the direct hit, George Gillett has been bankrupted and stands no chance of paying his share of the RBS debt by 6th October. Tom Hicks is now legally obligated to pay Gillett’s 50% of the debt. So the obvious danger arising from Gillett’s demise is that if any financial institution were insane enough to lend Tom Hicks the money, he now has the right to buy out Gillett’s 50% of the club.

That’s scary. But a more agreeable way of looking at it is to imagine Hicks and Gillett handcuffing themselves to each other on that fateful day they entered into that Joint & Several pact. Gillett has now given up; he’s jumped off the pier. A horrified Tom Hicks realises he’s still cuffed to him. He clings on by his fingertips as his former partner sinks, his dead weight dragging Hicks closer and closer to the edge. Hicks, wild-eyed, is pleading to the merchant seamen who pass by, begging them to grab his hand and haul him back from the brink. One or two of them come over for a look, but recognise Hicks as the man who killed their trade in Brazil, or Texas… it’s just not worth them getting involved with a man like this. He’ll always shaft you in the end, so they turn a deaf ear to his pleas for one last chance. If Hicks can’t get someone to throw him a lifeline, he’s going down with Gillett, and soon.

Just as Kirdi was in all likelihood a stooge created by Gillett, for the precise purpose of wheeling him out as a stalking horse whenever an offer came in for the club, it’s equally likely that the Blackstone bombshell is Hicks’s last gamble; an empty bluff from a poker player who doesn’t have a hand. But from the RBS’s and from a legal point of view, it’s still complicated. Martin Broughton, Christian Purslow and Ian Ayre are not the enemy. They are carefully and skilfully navigating a path through a minefield, keeping a keen eye on what needs to happen (Gillett and Hicks out) and the strict legalities and procedures for bringing that about. To give just one blunt example, a recent report about Hicks’ refinancing fiasco stated that Martin Broughton is “open minded” about the prospect of Hicks staying on. He can hardly state otherwise, can he? Any suggestion, let alone confirmation that Broughton was not acting in the best interests of the owners would only lead to another hiatus as Hicks stalls and sues and refuses to go. Equally, the supposed Purslow Smirk after today’s game is much more likely to be “if only I could tell you…” rather than “why should I care”. The U.K-based element of the board have gone through a lengthy and diligent legal process to ascertain what they can lawfully do to prevent Gillett and Hicks from re-financing. They’re hardly going to blow it now by playing to the crowd.

Me neither. That’s all for now. Go to bed knowing that it’s not over yet. But neither is it Over.

Think this deserves a spot.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #358 on: September 23, 2010, 10:06:33 am »
Emotional critics without getting carried away..

I've read a few posts now saying 'give Roy a chance'. 'the players are just as much to blame'. I have decided to post the reasons why I feel Hodgson is the most culpable person for this result. Feel free to counter argue if you disagree.

Firstly he made 11 changes for a cup game. Now, when Benitez first started mass rotations the media were up in arms, saying he did not take the cup seriously. But Benitez always left experienced players on the bench as a fall back in case things got tricky. Hodgson did no such thing. While I welcomed the change in personnel (though was frankly concerned at so many changes) not having any experience in case of emergency was a bad mistake.

The make up and formation of the team was also questionable. Hodgson effectively played 4 Cbs in a flat back four. I know Kelly has played quite a bit at RB but he is more suited to a central berth, while Wilson is still raw and an unknown quantity, but was signed as a CB. Again, while it can be argued that players playing FB rather than CB is not that problematic, there was no plan B on the bench, no back-up in case it all went wrong.

In midfield we had the inexperienced Spearing and Pacheco, as well as the experienced Lucas and newbie but experienced Jova. Unfortunately the make-up of the midfield was unbalanced. Pacheco is an attacking player who is usually played centrally and behind the strike force. Jova is a wide man who hugs the touchline. Last night Spearing and Lucas played deep like you would in a 433, Jova stayed wide like a standard winger in 442, while pacheco kept cutting into central positions. The result was massive gaps all over the pitch, put particularly across the middle of the park.

Up front both Ngog and Babel seemed confused as to their role. Were they playing a 442 side by side, or a 433 with Babel in the hole? In the end both players just ran to wherever they thought they could get the ball. Babel kept occupying the same space as Jova, while Ngog kept dropping off to try to receive the ball. There was no synergy between the forwards and none between the forwards and midfield.

The game panned out strangely, a static backline rarely venturing forward, a wayward midfield following their own instincts rather than a gameplan and unorthodox forward play by strikers unclear as to the role they were playing. The shape of the team was poor and needed direction, but none was forthcoming from the manager.

After the game Hodgson claimed that the team didn't play as he wanted them to, until the last 15 minutes. This criticism of the the team by the manager (and I really don't like our manager making comments like this) automatically generates the following question. If you didn't like the way the team was playing, why didn't you change it? This is the next mistake by the manager, imo, the slowness of reaction. It was not until the 90 minutes that he made his first change. The same lack of gameplan and discordant formation was in evidence and still in use in normal playing time. Why wait so long to make a move? Is that not poor management? Even when the change came, it made little sense. One of our experienced players (Jova) was taken off from a wide position and replaced by Ecclestone, a would be forward. Now the imbalance on the right was being mirrored by the imbalance on the left. Little wonder that a tiring and ragged Wilson was caught out of position and lacking cover for the second goal. With no experience on the bench and changes coming so late, inexperienced and young players like Wilson and Pacheco were out on their feet.

the next change when it came was also inexplicable. Jonjo, a box to box midfielder, came on for Ryan Babel.  Now, say what you like about Babel and his performance, but taking him off when a goal was needed and penalties in the offing for a midfielder was not the move of a man with a clear plan. Rather it was reactive, and while Jonjo did well, it still reflects the managers bizarre frame of mind. The final substitution was even more unusual, Young Ince, a raw talent, but not the man to get goals or be in place for penalties came on for a flagging Pacheco. Now, having Pacheco for penalties would have been useful, but I can understand the need to replace him... but for someone so far from first team football?

In the end we clawed back a goal, but only in the most ridiculous manner. We sent a CB up front, played 3 at the back and started balls long in the hope Soto would get a flick on. That is the recourse of the desperate, a long ball game unsuited to a top side... however, Hodgson later admitted that it was during this period that the team played as he wanted them to. Is this what Hodgson wants from his team? 3 CBs pumping long balls over the the top of a mish mash of midfielders to a big man up front? Is that where we want our manager to take us as a club?

The final error as I see it was in the selection of the penalty takers. Selecting a raft of youngster to take the penalties was a mistake, originating from the lack of experienced options on the bench and compounded by the decision to withdraw our most experienced players (Babel and Jova, the goal scorer) from the pitch. Ecclestone should not have been asked to take on such a responsibility, nor should Jonjo (though kudos to him, he took his goal well).

Ultimately this was a failing of management, someone who did not take the competition or the opposition seriously, put out a poorly balanced and prepared team, failed to rectify errors due to a lack of options from the bench or an alternative plan B if plan A failed and who selected too many inexperienced and raw players for the final test, a penalty shoot-out.

One final observation; When Benitez struggled to make 4th last year, at least he was competing for that position, and that was with a raft of injuries and poor officiating decisions (beachball). Already with nearly the same team Hodgson has us mired near relegation and out of a cup. He has already as good as said in the media we need to re-evaluate our expectations, that this team is not good enough to challenge. Thing is, only 2 of the players he brought in were on show and he withdrew 1 of those. Where was Cole, Poulsen and Meireles last night? They all need playing time for match fitness and to gel with team mates. How come they weren't at least on the bench? They are his players after all.


« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 10:09:05 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline vicgill

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Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #359 on: September 23, 2010, 10:51:33 am »
Great post donkeywan, I have to say that when I saw the team sheet I thought "OK, good to see some lads getting a game",  then I saw the bench and thought "Oh Fuck, if things go tits up there isn't any experienced back up".

Roy says that he gives all opposing teams respect but I didn't see anything like that in his line up.As you quite rightly say, some of our first team players needed a bit of game time, twenty or so minutes would have helped them and possibly provided us with a different outcome.

Anyway it's done, we now have Sunderland at the weekend let's hope the lads play well and start to turn things around.
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