Topic: Systems - Rotation Rotation Rotation

[royhendo]

In a departure from our standard format, we thought we'd have a question and answer session for this one, as it's something Al and I were debating but a few days ago on this very site.

Rotation. The group. Peak physical condition. Resting with the ball. And other stock phrases. What does it all mean?


Roy

I put it to you, Al, that Brendan Rodgers, unlike certain of his predecessors and peers, picks and sticks with a first choice team. He doesn't rotate. He doesn't substitute based on physical condition. He has done this out of choice and not it's not necessarily been necessitated by necessity.

Or has he? And has he? And has it?



Al

I don't think it is really true that Brendan doesn't rotate Roy, we have played 39 games this season and have kept an unchanged side on only two occasions for Swansea away - Spurs away and for Fulham home - Stoke away. On both of those occasions we lost the second game which may or may not have a significance.

At the other end of the spectrum we made 11 changes between the Gomel home - West Brom away League Cup game, we made 9 changes between the Everton away - Swansea home League Cup game with only Jones and Allen keeping their places, 9 changes between the Newcastle home - Anzhi away game with only Jones and Wisdom keeping their places, 8 changes between Sunderland home - Mansfield away FA Cup with Lucas, Downing and  Wisdom keeping their places and 7 changes between the Norwich home - Oldham away FA Cup game with Jones, Wisdom, Sturridge and Suarez playing both games.

As for not rotating because of physical condition I think it is noticeable that the players who struggle to repeat games Gerrard and Agger have played very rarely in the 14 Cup games with Gerrard starting four of the ten Europa games and none of the domestic Cup games whilst Agger has started 3 Europa games and none of the Domestic Cups.



Roy

So is rotation evidenced solely in 'not playing an unchanged side' then? It's clear we've had a league side and a cup side this season, but the numbers hide a pretty consistent selection in the league don't they?

Here are our league 'minutes played'. It's notable how solid the numbers for our big players are, but we have to remember the Dempsey thing, then the injuries, and that both affected the selections in the first half of the season.

23 players used, with possibly Sturridge, Borini and Kelly in a group that might have seen more playing time at the expense of others further up the leaderboard.

Gerrard   2,250
Suarez   2,156
Agger   2,107
Johnson   2,053
Skrtel   1,888
Reina   1,800
Allen   1,734
Sterling   1,703
Downing   1,179
Jose Enrique   1,132
Wisdom   969
Lucas   836
Henderson   772
Shelvey   770
Fernandez Saez   577
Carragher   461
Jones   450
Sahin   448
Borini   384
Kelly   335
Sturridge   275
Coates   140
Assaidi   57

Compare that with Man Utd for the league. 25 players used... but is the spread comparable?

Evra   2,176
Carrick   2,092
Van Persie   2,044
Rafael   1,687
Ferdinand   1,684
de Gea   1,546
Valencia   1,354
Evans 1,337
Rooney   1,306
Cleverley   1,221
Young   1,050
Welbeck   946
Vidic   823
Smalling   740
Kagawa   724
Lindegaard   720
Scholes   684
Hernandez   630
Giggs   569
Nani   459
Jones   450
Anderson   383
Fletcher   181
Buttner   90
Powell   32

Here's how the graph looks. For an evenly rotated squad, you'd expect a few higher numbers, followed by a comparatively flat line with squad players sharing minutes. For a less rotated squad, you'd expect more high numbers for first choice players, followed by a sharper decline for the squad players.



The problem is that those numbers are just the league. But based on those numbers, it shows Man Utd having rotated a little more than Liverpool have, but not to a glaring extent. Man Utd's line is a little flatter and longer, whereas ours descends a little more sharply after our key players' numbers are past. With Henderson and Sturridge now looking like fixtures, it'd be interesting to see how that affects things.



Al

Interesting numbers Roy, it probably shows what we already knew United have more depth and probably even more crucially they have less disparity in the overall difference in quality between members of the squad. Also of note is that whilst our two players with most minutes are two of our biggest goal threats with the exception of Van Persie United's players with the most minutes are a Keeper, three defenders and a holding midfield player. Which largely goes with the perceived wisdom that it is best to rotate your front players and wingers to keep them fresh and to try and keep a settled defence.

The only fly in the ointment for me would be that United are prioritising two competitions the Premier League and the Champions League whilst we are pretty clearly concentrating almost exclusively on the Premier League. It would be interesting to see numbers for all the competitions.



Roy

That's very true. And as if by magic (and with the wonders of long-term thread authoring) here are the graphs.

1. All comps.



Top 11 MU - Evra, Rafael, Carrick, RVP, De Gea, Rooney, Ferdinand, Evans, Cleverley, Valencia, Hernandez
Top 11 Liverpool - Gerrard, Suarez, Skrtel, Johnson, Agger, Reina, Downing, Allen, Sterling, Henderson, Shelvey

2. League only (cups excluded).



Top 11 MU - Evra, Carrick, RVP, Rafael, Ferdinand, De Gea, Valencia, Evans, Rooney, Cleverley, Young
Top 11 Liverpool - Gerrard, Suarez, Agger, Johnson, Skrtel, Reina, Allen, Sterling, Downing, Jose Enrique, Wisdom

3. Cup comps only (league excluded).



Top 11 MU - Hernandez, Rafael, De Gea, Rooney, Buttner, Anderson, Wellbeck, Cleverley, Fletcher, Nani, Giggs
Top 11 Liverpool - Downing, Carragher, Henderson, Shelvey, Jones, Coates, Skrtel, Suarez, Allen, Reina, Wisdom

4. Europe only.



Top 11 MU - De Gea, Hernandez, Rafael, Rooney, Evans, Cleverley, RVP, Fletcher, Wellbeck, Evra, Carrick
Top 11 Liverpool - Downing, Carragher, Shelvey, Henderson, Reina, Skrtel, Gerrard, Suarez, Borini, Johnson, Jose Enrique





5. Domestic cups only (sadly the Liverpool sample size for this is quite small)



Top 11 MU - Hernandez, Rafael, Buttner, Anderson, Giggs, Nani, Wellbeck, De Gea, Smalling, Rooney, Lindegaard
Top 11 Liverpool - Jones, Coates, Robinson, Downing, Henderson, Allen, Carragher, Wisdom, Shelvey, Suarez, Assaidi



Al

Brilliant that Roy, really interesting graphs and something that will be very interesting to look back on and to use as a reference point as Brendan's squad hopefully evolves in the coming months and years. As you said in the OP this season has had a feel of two teams, almost a Lions tour scenario in which we largely have a weekend team for the League games and a mid week team for the Cup games. Hopefully that can change and we can have a more even distribution of games with a flatter graph especially in the League games.

Doing this has certainly been food for thought and I have been trying to establish some of the benefits rotation brings with it.

1. FITNESS

The obvious one to start with, rotation allows you to control the number of games your players have to play. Players need periods of recovery and recuperation between games to stay at an optimum level of fitness. That differs from player to player but ideally you would identify the players that need longer periods of recovery, players with previous injury problems and the players who rely on acceleration and explosiveness. The objective would be to try and reduce the number of times they play three games a week. Hopefully that allows you to reduce the risk of injury and to allow the players to keep their sharpness.

Players that spring to mind are Johnson, Agger, Gerrard, Sterling, Sturridge and Suarez.

From your graph on %ge of Cup minutes it is evident that we have already looked to protect Johnson, Agger and Gerrard with all three playing very few Cup minutes. Hopefully the recruitment of Sturridge and Coutinho plus any business we do in the summer will allow us to reduce the strain on Suarez.

2. BRINGING THROUGH PLAYERS

With the decline of the Central League and the emphasis on younger players within the U21 League the need for rotation has increased for me. The days of a Geoff Twentyman bringing in rough diamonds that could be polished in the reserves have largely gone. There is such a gulf in quality and intensity between the first team and the U21 League that you need to blood players in the first team now, either yours or someone else's. The United Cup graph is very interesting with the likes of  Hernandez, Rafael, De Gea, Buttner, Anderson, Wellbeck and Cleverley being prevalent.

If we are to improve and to bring in quality at the top end of the scale then it is going to be even more important to rotate and to give opportunities to young players. Henderson is a perfect example of a young player getting games with the mid week team and forcing his way into the first choice line up. The Europa League games have been an absolute godsend for Henderson.

3. SQUAD SIZE

Rotation allows you to keep more players happy. If we are to compete at the top end of the Premier League and in Europe then we need to improve our squad depth both in terms of numbers and probably more importantly in terms of quality. To keep players happy and to keep a good spirit within the Clubs the players need to be kept involved and to play games.

4. TACTICAL FLEXIBILITY

We play in an incredibly diverse League and to be successful you need to be able to compete at Stoke one week, to overcome the park the bus teams the next and finally be able to win tactical battles against the teams at the top. Though it pains me to say it United have been brilliant at it. rotation and having a big squad has allowed them to have players like O'Shea and Brown who could play at full back and help to nullify the Neanderthals of Stoke, players like Hernandez and Tevez who have given them the fire power from the bench to blow away the park the bus team and finally players like Park and Giggs who have given them energy and intelligence in the games against the top sides.

None of those players with the exception of Giggs earlier in his career have been good enough to be nailed on starters but have given United an ability to go for a horses for courses approach and an ability to change the course of games. It will be interesting to see whether Brendan goes for that approach in the future or relies on his systems flexibility.

[royhendo]

We've only looked at Man Utd in the interest of simplicity - maybe you can extend the analysis. Do we need to be more artful about this going forward? Will it only be possible as we add quality? Does a change in emphasis in training change things, as Glen Driscoll maybe hinted at earlier this season?

Over to you...

[arcticus]

I used to lament the time when Rafa used to chop and change and it did cost us, but when we play our regulars week in week out, I fear that an injury is just around the corner.

I knew Sterling's played a lot but 1773 minutes, that's insane for a 17/18 year old at this level no matter how talented you are

[Quaid]

I always remember Andy Gray critiscing Rafa on Sky years ago for not starting Gerrard and Torres in matches, and then being forced to bring them on the 70th minute as we were losing. He always argued that it would be best for the team to start them, cement a winning position, and then take them off with 20-30 minutes to go.

To be honest, one of the few things I agree with Gray over, I defo think it's best to start your better players against opposition in the League or in European competitions proper. FA cup fixtures like Oldham, Brighton etc. are made for full on squad rotations. Other than that, I think you should try to keep the majority of you starting XI the same, only replacing the odd couple of players when fixtures build up.

[Zeb]

I always remember Andy Gray critiscing Rafa on Sky years ago for not starting Gerrard and Torres in matches, and then being forced to bring them on the 70th minute as we were losing. He always argued that it would be best for the team to start them, cement a winning position, and then take them off with 20-30 minutes to go.

To be honest, one of the few things I agree with Gray over, I defo think it's best to start your better players against opposition in the League or in European competitions proper. FA cup fixtures like Oldham, Brighton etc. are made for full on squad rotations. Other than that, I think you should try to keep the majority of you starting XI the same, only replacing the odd couple of players when fixtures build up.

It's an interesting point, but I think the length of recovery time during Rafa's time in charge was a major factor there. It's not so much the number of matches as the time inbetween them is what seems to be the issue according to coaches. With the CL, and the need to qualify, rotation became more essential for the league matches before and after. And just when the CL goes into hiatus, you then get the traditional mad winter period in the Premier League. So wouldn't buy into what Gray says there personally. It's sometimes less about the totals, and more about when the minutes are played. If you look at the Mancs' example, you see what amounts to two distinct teams operating - without strength in depth there's a precarious balancing act for a manager. Ferguson's recent comments about changing his team this weekend to hammer home a psychological advantage was an interesting aspect to this, although if they get whipped by Real Madrid, was it the right call? If they don't, then it's obviously having your cake and eating it.

The training change was an interesting discussion. Was fascinating to read what Prof and Phase of Play were saying about that in the thread at the time, as well as what coaching staff at the club have commented upon with what they're trying to do enabling players to play more frequently. 

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Rodgers does not need to make subs for fatigue reasons or Rodgers pressing game is not working and our players are not shattered enough.

I'm yet to see much of a pressing game if I'm honest, so I suggest once that takes off Rodgers will need to be more on the ball with rotating.

[Eeyore]

We certainly looked as if we could of benefitted from some rotation tonight with Gerrard and Johnson looking very jaded after so much football in the last couple of weeks.

[PhaseOfPlay]

We certainly looked as if we could of benefitted from some rotation tonight with Gerrard and Johnson looking very jaded after so much football in the last couple of weeks.

Suarez has had much the same football though, and rarely looks jaded, so it doesn't necessarily follow. He also played a midweek game against Spain. My thinking is that Hodgson being Hodgson had them do some high intensity fitness work in the England camp, which was completely pointless and unnecessary at this stage of the season, and then played them both for 90 minutes against Brazil. We don't need rotation, because the training workloads are being managed. For me, it is no surprise that two of the players who looked most off the pace played for England on Wednesday, while others who also played midweek football didn't look as affected.

Doesn't justify the result though, but in my opinion, Ferguson wouldn't tolerate such performances after an international week, and I daresay his players would be getting "injured" every time there was a friendly week after something like today.

[woof]

We tend to over scrutinise when we lose a game we should have won. The real reason is a mental one, not tactics or fitness. West Brom came into the match with a poor form while we're red hot. Weariness may be a factor here but it shouldn't affect the way we play. Passes going astray and we're not penetrating like we should be and got killed in set pieces and counter attacks. I felt that BR should have subbed Shelvey at HT to give us more attacking options especially on the left by bringing on Sterling.

[DJ_Polly12]

On fitness (and this may be a off topic) are the pre-season conditioning drills that are being run match type situations, eg 9v9 8v4 limited touch, where players are being taught to 'rest' with the ball, or the age old sprint, rest, sprint, rest suicide type sessions?



 

[PhaseOfPlay]

On fitness (and this may be a off topic) are the pre-season conditioning drills that are being run match type situations, eg 9v9 8v4 limited touch, where players are being taught to 'rest' with the ball, or the age old sprint, rest, sprint, rest suicide type sessions?

Small sided games: 4v2, 6v3, 6v6, 9v9, Tactical Periodization and global integrated training

[DanA]

There's no question in my mind that rotation is a necessity and our lack of depth hinders our ability to rotate. I'm sure it will cost us games in the back half of this season even with Rodgers training load management techniques.

I think a good point is highlighted when we look at who has spent large minutes in the EPL for Man Utd compared to us. As far as I see any time we rotate Suarez, Gerrard & Sturridge we're putting the game a jeopardy. But this is the reverse of how it should be. We should have a rock solid back four that remains consistent, the CB's and GK in particular do very little running so can afford to play more minutes but the attack are constantly running to open up space. Until we have goal scoring options and the ability to rotate these goal scoring options we will continue to perform poorly.


It's a risk we have to take from time to time but Man Utd don't. We all know strength and depth is important but I think it's a huge edge Utd have over the rest of the competition.

[Adamski LFC]

As DanA says, the more the keeper, CB's and DM practice and play together, the better that will be.  Ideally the FB's should be solid too.  It does present a drawback though.  Any injury disrupts the above and breeds strangeness between the regulars and the new one, unless they have also practiced and played.  That is why we need rotation.  We have too many games in the season, so need a deep squad and, where opposition is weaker, use the fill ins to gain time and experience together.

[Eeyore]

Suarez has had much the same football though, and rarely looks jaded, so it doesn't necessarily follow. He also played a midweek game against Spain. My thinking is that Hodgson being Hodgson had them do some high intensity fitness work in the England camp, which was completely pointless and unnecessary at this stage of the season, and then played them both for 90 minutes against Brazil. We don't need rotation, because the training workloads are being managed. For me, it is no surprise that two of the players who looked most off the pace played for England on Wednesday, while others who also played midweek football didn't look as affected.

Doesn't justify the result though, but in my opinion, Ferguson wouldn't tolerate such performances after an international week, and I daresay his players would be getting "injured" every time there was a friendly week after something like today.

Players are different though Suarez has shown that he a ridiculous capacity to repeat games he came back from the 2010 World Cup and the Copa America and was playing again for his Club side after very very little rest. In the last few years both Johnson and Gerrard have struggled to repeat games yet they were asked to play 4 games in 12 days.

I think you are spot on about Hodgson and I could imagine eyeballs out sessions were Gerrard was competing with the likes of Wilshire, Lampard and Cleverly and Johnson going head to head with kyle Walker. What was it Terry used to say we train like we play. That is just unadulterated madness at this stage of the season.

As for Ferguson without checking I doubt any of his outfield players have played every minute of every game the way Gerrard and Johnson have for Club and country over the last couple of weeks.

[steveeastend]

I think there is one very important point which hasn´t been made here. The OP is outstanding but to me, it´s missing the one and most important argument in all this... that rotation isn´t some sort of a choice, it´s a necessity and it´s a consequence of competition.

In contrast to other leagues, there is no winter break in the PL so for that EVERY player will have better weeks and worse ones. In addition, there are those injuries and international which drag players out of squad, if you like it or not.

What I am trying to say is, there are no first 14 players existing being able to make it through the entire length of a season on top of their game. Maybe some, being in the physical prime and on top of their game like Gerrard a couple of years ago, or Agger at the moment, maybe Lucas. Yes, there are players who need to play regularly, like Suarez or Rooney, but that´s the exception of the rule and I would say the majority need to be taken out at some point of a PL season in order to get back to their level.

It ends up with having 23+ players around, sticking together in training day in, day out. The competition and work there is the foundation for the way we play on weekend. The best in training should be playing the next game and for that, rotation is also a consequence of competition.

The result yesterday was a consequence of not having enough competition around and too many players not on top of their game, we couldn´t add those extra 10% in order to finish the game off. With a bigger squad, we would have been able to make up for this and rotate.

[DanA]

I think this thing with Suarez's capacity is something we need to not take for granted. He's able to play huge game time right up until he breaks down. It's inevitable if we keep playing him as much as we are that something will come up. He might last a year, maybe two but I just don't see his body coping with getting kicked and run into the ground the we are going now. It's a world cup year at the end of next season, we need to be very careful.

[Eeyore]

I think this thing with Suarez's capacity is something we need to not take for granted. He's able to play huge game time right up until he breaks down. It's inevitable if we keep playing him as much as we are that something will come up. He might last a year, maybe two but I just don't see his body coping with getting kicked and run into the ground the we are going now. It's a world cup year at the end of next season, we need to be very careful.

You are right it is a similar situation to the one last season where we took the durability of Lucas for granted and ended up with real problems when the pretty inevitable injury occurred. As Steveeastand said rotation is in the modern game isn't really an option, probably the clearest example is Everton who despite rarely being in Europe are only capable of either a good start or a good finish but not both of them.

Hopefully Sturridge and Coutinho can give us the wiggle room to give Suarez the rest he needs to continue to perform at his best for years to come. The biggest disappointment for me is the lack of impact the players recruited in the summer have made. We really shouldn't be in a position were we have spent nearly £30m on Allen, Borini and Assaidi but are afraid to give them game time.

The run of games we have just had should of been an ideal opportunity to rest players and bring in fresh players but the drop off from the first 11 and the rest of the squad is frightening at the moment.

[arcticus]

Suarez has had much the same football though, and rarely looks jaded, so it doesn't necessarily follow. He also played a midweek game against Spain.

He forgot how to shoot last night.

He needs a nice long rest tbf

[PhaseOfPlay]

He forgot how to shoot last night.

He needs a nice long rest tbf

I think it's more detailed than that. I think he saw that he was the main striker, with no Sturridge with him, and Shelvey as back-up, and decided it was up to him and him alone to win the game. This is why it's necessary to have more than two forwards.

There are three types of players -

"Me" players think the game is all about them. They don't track back, they don't engage in the game unless they are on the ball, they lose position because they think the game revolves around them - "The team is all about ME"

"I" players play somewhat similarly to "Me" players, but they come from the point of view that they have to do the work because they are the best on the team and the team is counting on them - "I have to win the game for the team". They work hard, play hard, have talent, but usually their self-centredness detracts from the team because they become the focal point whether they are playing well or not.

"We" players, are true team players, who take as much pleasure in setting up a team-mate as they do from scoring themelves, who will put their body on the line to prevent a goal, who will take a yellow card to stem an attack, who will bear down on the goalkeeper from a good angle put slip the ball across to the open player at the back post for the easy goal with no thought to their own personal glory - "We need to play together to win - we all defend, we all attack, it doesn't matter who scores, as long as WE win".

We have some "I" players, and a few "Me" players. We have very few "We" players. Last night, Suarez was an "I" player. That's part of his psychology, but it's detrimental to the team when he's not on form.

[arcticus]

I think it's more detailed than that. I think he saw that he was the main striker, with no Sturridge with him, and Shelvey as back-up, and decided it was up to him and him alone to win the game. This is why it's necessary to have more than two forwards.

There are three types of players -

"Me" players think the game is all about them. They don't track back, they don't engage in the game unless they are on the ball, they lose position because they think the game revolves around them - "The team is all about ME"

"I" players play somewhat similarly to "Me" players, but they come from the point of view that they have to do the work because they are the best on the team and the team is counting on them - "I have to win the game for the team". They work hard, play hard, have talent, but usually their self-centredness detracts from the team because they become the focal point whether they are playing well or not.

"We" players, are true team players, who take as much pleasure in setting up a team-mate as they do from scoring themelves, who will put their body on the line to prevent a goal, who will take a yellow card to stem an attack, who will bear down on the goalkeeper from a good angle put slip the ball across to the open player at the back post for the easy goal with no thought to their own personal glory - "We need to play together to win - we all defend, we all attack, it doesn't matter who scores, as long as WE win".

We have some "I" players, and a few "Me" players. We have very few "We" players. Last night, Suarez was an "I" player. That's part of his psychology, but it's detrimental to the team when he's not on form.

Fair enough but everyone bar Carra/Sterling had nightmares last night.

So it isn't fair on him.

On the subject of rotation, I think the fewer internationals we have the better. That way they get a lot of rest and can concentrate on just the one team. We have almost always lost on monday nights especially after a week of internationals/travelling to god knows where for away ties in Europe.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Fair enough but everyone bar Carra/Sterling had nightmares last night.

So it isn't fair on him.

On the subject of rotation, I think the fewer internationals we have the better. That way they get a lot of rest and can concentrate on just the one team. We have almost always lost on monday nights especially after a week of internationals/travelling to god knows where for away ties in Europe.

We need Internationals in the team. Internationals are players who are considered the best in their country for the positions they play in. If we stop signing internationals, we'll be a relegation team. What we need to do is play funny buggers with the various FA's who won't respect our needs on friendly weeks - there was no need for Gerrard and Johnson to play a full game, and I'm pretty sure they did high intensity fitness stuff in the training camp with Hodgson. Some strategic "injuries" need to be had if the players are going to be worked into the ground at an important point in the season in a meaningless friendly.

[arcticus]

We need Internationals in the team. Internationals are players who are considered the best in their country for the positions they play in. If we stop signing internationals, we'll be a relegation team. What we need to do is play funny buggers with the various FA's who won't respect our needs on friendly weeks - there was no need for Gerrard and Johnson to play a full game, and I'm pretty sure they did high intensity fitness stuff in the training camp with Hodgson. Some strategic "injuries" need to be had if the players are going to be worked into the ground at an important point in the season in a meaningless friendly.

I'm not saying sign someone random but most of the spanish players don't get a sniff in the national team. Also look at the Germans, so much quality everywhere but most of them won't even probably get 10 starts in the next 5-10 years.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'm not saying sign someone random but most of the spanish players don't get a sniff in the national team. Also look at the Germans, so much quality everywhere but most of them won't even probably get 10 starts in the next 5-10 years.

We should be looking in those directions, you're right. But at the same time, there might be a directive to not sign too many non-British players. It's easy to say what we should and shouldn't do. We don't know the background structures that the manager has to work under though.

[arcticus]

We should be looking in those directions, you're right. But at the same time, there might be a directive to not sign too many non-British players. It's easy to say what we should and shouldn't do. We don't know the background structures that the manager has to work under though.

The problem with signing British players are if they have 3-4 good games they are immediately touted for the national team by the media. Therefore putting extra pressure on the player to drive himself into the ground and wear himself out, just in time for the club's weekend game.
The thing with Spain, Netherlands, Germany, etc is that it doesn't matter. The manager picks a system with a fixed set of players and they play. Now we all know that Gerrard and Johnson are integral to England and we may have players who might become integral to their Nation but there has to be a certain level of common sense, when picking players like Sterling. The lad's just turned 18 and already had immense pressure as being the heir to Barnes, evident from the fact that almost every Liverpool fan will make that comparison. It may or may not fuel the lad to better things but being dragged to the English setup at that age isn't right.

Okay he didn't get injured then and you could say that he got a taste of what he could achieve in the future but there will be a time when he pulls up with an injury because of all these games. Then what will become of all that potential? Look at Michael Johnson.

We already have a core of british players. We just need that extra flair. IMO we have way too many international captains and that isn't helping us at all. You could say that they are supposed to provide that mental toughness but it's the one thing we are lacking.

Skrtel - Slovakia
Agger - Denmark
Suarez - Uruguay
Gerrard - England
Henderson - England U21

Those are 5 players out of 11 who are supposed to have the mental toughness to hack it as a captain but as soon as we go 1 behind we just give up.

RANT OVER.

[steveeastend]

Fair enough but everyone bar Carra/Sterling had nightmares last night.

I wanna know how you come to this conclusion, absolutely nothing to do with what happened on the pitch IMO.

As for our squad, we need the best players we can possible get and as many as possible. Compromises won´t help us, the last couple of years proved this.

Start with this winger from HSV, Song, another top striker, a full back and a top center midfielder.

[DJ_Polly12]

Small sided games: 4v2, 6v3, 6v6, 9v9, Tactical Periodization and global integrated training

The only reason I ask PoP, is that I remember attending a coach's conference where the issue of conditioning was debated extensively. From that, the idea of SSF (small sided football) and 'game simulation training' had something like a 17% increase in player performance over a 48 - 58 session pre-season.

I'm certainly not debating the fact that the idea that Rodgers lack of rotation is down to quality in depth, but I think after another full pre-season, we'll definately see the advantages of the sessions being conducted that will further strengthen the argument that a preferred XI will be used, with other layers available to 'plug' gaps.

 I do not think it's a coincidence that somebody on here made the comment that Stevie had a smile on his face for the first time in god knows how long while playing, as IMO he's finally feeling the strength and fitness during games has was during the 05 - 09 seasons.

[exiledinyorkshire]

the real acid test of a rotation policy, comes only when a team is playing well winning games and has no apparent injury problems.

The media got after Benitez for tinkering, and massively over egged it in my opinion. However, without being able to recall exactly when, i think i'm right in the fact that on a fair few occasions Rafa would rest key, in form players in league games to the detriment of the result.

There is no evidence that Rodgers does this. He has clearly prioritised the league, and i think without exception he has put out his best available team(as he sees it anyway) in every single league game. players have been dropped for form as well, but i dont think he has ever saved somebody for a cup game in a league game. He is correct not to rotate his league team. The figures that Roy and Al discuss in the OP are ascued slightly, because its more relevant to look at who the form players are at the time. Allen's figures are not due to rotation they are because of a lack of form. Sterling is not on a prolonged rest at the moment, he isnt playing because he isnt the best option at this point.

[Eeyore]

the real acid test of a rotation policy, comes only when a team is playing well winning games and has no apparent injury problems.

The media got after Benitez for tinkering, and massively over egged it in my opinion. However, without being able to recall exactly when, i think i'm right in the fact that on a fair few occasions Rafa would rest key, in form players in league games to the detriment of the result.

There is no evidence that Rodgers does this. He has clearly prioritised the league, and i think without exception he has put out his best available team(as he sees it anyway) in every single league game. players have been dropped for form as well, but i dont think he has ever saved somebody for a cup game in a league game. He is correct not to rotate his league team. The figures that Roy and Al discuss in the OP are ascued slightly, because its more relevant to look at who the form players are at the time. Allen's figures are not due to rotation they are because of a lack of form. Sterling is not on a prolonged rest at the moment, he isnt playing because he isnt the best option at this point.

Hasn't Ferguson at United for instance always rested players for League games prior to Champions League games though. It's a bit of a double edged sword when you look at Benitez he may of picked up the odd point or two here and there if he had of always picked his strongest line up for League games but on the other hand the money made from the CL successes largely bankrolled the building of the squad.

I used to find it quite strange people complaining about Torres for instance being very occasionally rested for League games considering that without success in the Champions League Torres would more than likely never of been at the Club in the first place.

The point about Allen is a good one but without rotation how is someone like Allen ever going to get his form back. With four games in 11 days for the players on International duty maybe that run of games was a good time to bring Allen back into the fold and to alleviated the strain on Gerrard who has played an incredible number of minutes for someone with his past injury problems.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The only reason I ask PoP, is that I remember attending a coach's conference where the issue of conditioning was debated extensively. From that, the idea of SSF (small sided football) and 'game simulation training' had something like a 17% increase in player performance over a 48 - 58 session pre-season.

I'm certainly not debating the fact that the idea that Rodgers lack of rotation is down to quality in depth, but I think after another full pre-season, we'll definately see the advantages of the sessions being conducted that will further strengthen the argument that a preferred XI will be used, with other layers available to 'plug' gaps.

 I do not think it's a coincidence that somebody on here made the comment that Stevie had a smile on his face for the first time in god knows how long while playing, as IMO he's finally feeling the strength and fitness during games has was during the 05 - 09 seasons.

It wasn't one of Verheijen's, was it?

[Zeb]

Hasn't Ferguson at United for instance always rested players for League games prior to Champions League games though.

Interesting factoid, Ferguson once went 166 games without naming the same team in succession. It coincided with the height of media coverage of foreign managers doing the same but being damned for it. Agree very much with it being a necessity given certain assumptions. What's interesting is whether or not those assumptions ought to be questioned a little more, especially given what is coming out of the coaching staff about training and how that relates to things. PoP has his suspicions about what Hodgson gets up to at England get-togethers, and they're ones shared by some outspoken foreign coaches too, aren't they? There was that whole fuss pre-Euros when a Dutch coach highlighted how utterly nuts it was to have players doing high intensity training at the end of a long season, and then the managers doing that having the temerity to moan about losing players to injury or about how jaded their team looked when they got into competition.

So whilst fitness may play a role in rotation, how far can it be managed so that you can avoid it too frequently for that reason alone? Is there a trade-off needed? Or is it just a different approach to training which pays dividends in a different way to what we've been used to?

[Rohit]

I think it's more detailed than that. I think he saw that he was the main striker, with no Sturridge with him, and Shelvey as back-up, and decided it was up to him and him alone to win the game. This is why it's necessary to have more than two forwards.

There are three types of players -

"Me" players think the game is all about them. They don't track back, they don't engage in the game unless they are on the ball, they lose position because they think the game revolves around them - "The team is all about ME"

"I" players play somewhat similarly to "Me" players, but they come from the point of view that they have to do the work because they are the best on the team and the team is counting on them - "I have to win the game for the team". They work hard, play hard, have talent, but usually their self-centredness detracts from the team because they become the focal point whether they are playing well or not.

"We" players, are true team players, who take as much pleasure in setting up a team-mate as they do from scoring themelves, who will put their body on the line to prevent a goal, who will take a yellow card to stem an attack, who will bear down on the goalkeeper from a good angle put slip the ball across to the open player at the back post for the easy goal with no thought to their own personal glory - "We need to play together to win - we all defend, we all attack, it doesn't matter who scores, as long as WE win".

We have some "I" players, and a few "Me" players. We have very few "We" players. Last night, Suarez was an "I" player. That's part of his psychology, but it's detrimental to the team when he's not on form.

Totally agree on Suarez. Its the pros and cons of him basically playing as a lone striker. If the team isn't doing well or he doesn't have trust in his team mates, he'll either drop off into midfield or wide areas to recieve the ball and it leaves us with no focal point in the team. When he's on form it doesn't matter as he'll take on a whole defense and score or set one up but either way he needs runners of him playing there. Yesterday the team was no set up to make runs off him and if they were they didn't execute it well enough. With Sturridge there or another forward of quality him dropping to pick the ball isn't an issue as we always have a reference point or someone at least exploiting the space Suarez makes by moving away from his markers.

[Eeyore]

Interesting factoid, Ferguson once went 166 games without naming the same team in succession. It coincided with the height of media coverage of foreign managers doing the same but being damned for it. Agree very much with it being a necessity given certain assumptions. What's interesting is whether or not those assumptions ought to be questioned a little more, especially given what is coming out of the coaching staff about training and how that relates to things. PoP has his suspicions about what Hodgson gets up to at England get-togethers, and they're ones shared by some outspoken foreign coaches too, aren't they? There was that whole fuss pre-Euros when a Dutch coach highlighted how utterly nuts it was to have players doing high intensity training at the end of a long season, and then the managers doing that having the temerity to moan about losing players to injury or about how jaded their team looked when they got into competition.

So whilst fitness may play a role in rotation, how far can it be managed so that you can avoid it too frequently for that reason alone? Is there a trade-off needed? Or is it just a different approach to training which pays dividends in a different way to what we've been used to?

I think you were bang on the money with your earlier post Zeb about it not being the overall number of games that players play but the proximity of the games to each other and the lack of recovery time. Changes in training may improve the ability of players to repeat games but eventually if you keep playing three games a week the lack of recovery time starts to catch up with players. Knocks and strains get less chance to recover and eventually you start to see a downturn in players physical abilities and also for me a downturn in mental capabilities. As tiredness begins to set in players start to make poorer decisions, poorer decisions leads to the need to make more physical exertions and you end up in a vicious circle of downward performance levels.

The biggest problem then is that the players you would look to bring in to the team are cold, they haven't had much football, they lack sharpness and confidence and often cause as much of a problem to the team's performance levels as tired players do. I think you are right to try and reduce rotation based on purely fitness issues but for me rotation brings with it far more advantages than merely keeping fitness levels high. Done properly and it pains me to say it but Ferguson has been a master of rotation it gives you the ability to keep more players happy, it allows you to keep the fitness and morale of the entire squad happy, it allows a progression path for the next generation and it allows you to have a bigger squad with more variety and far more tactical options.

At the moment for me we have a squad containing too many over used tired players and too many cold players lacking in sharpness and confidence. It is harsh to criticise Rodgers because quite simply he has never had to contend with so many competitions and so many games but a little more rotation may well of left us with a better balanced squad going into an important part of the season.

[exiledinyorkshire]

I think it's more detailed than that. I think he saw that he was the main striker, with no Sturridge with him, and Shelvey as back-up, and decided it was up to him and him alone to win the game. This is why it's necessary to have more than two forwards.

There are three types of players -

"Me" players think the game is all about them. They don't track back, they don't engage in the game unless they are on the ball, they lose position because they think the game revolves around them - "The team is all about ME"

"I" players play somewhat similarly to "Me" players, but they come from the point of view that they have to do the work because they are the best on the team and the team is counting on them - "I have to win the game for the team". They work hard, play hard, have talent, but usually their self-centredness detracts from the team because they become the focal point whether they are playing well or not.

"We" players, are true team players, who take as much pleasure in setting up a team-mate as they do from scoring themelves, who will put their body on the line to prevent a goal, who will take a yellow card to stem an attack, who will bear down on the goalkeeper from a good angle put slip the ball across to the open player at the back post for the easy goal with no thought to their own personal glory - "We need to play together to win - we all defend, we all attack, it doesn't matter who scores, as long as WE win".

We have some "I" players, and a few "Me" players. We have very few "We" players. Last night, Suarez was an "I" player. That's part of his psychology, but it's detrimental to the team when he's not on form.

i am doing  little scrap book of things i pick up from you POP. This is going in there son. Thankyou.

[Fromola]

Rodgers picks as what he sees as his best team for every league game and rotates in the cups. But i've feared all season about Gerrard and Suarez, for example, suffering burn out, as Joe Allen already did months ago. There was maybe signs of that Monday night.

You have to give players a breather sometimes. Even if it's taking Gerrard off after an hour when you're a few goals up, but Rodgers won't even do that.

[GrkStav]

I like to think of player rotation literally. Two players for a position each being deployed no more than two or three games in a row.

It doesn't have to be in every position, obviously.

I don't think BR does it. Nor does Barcelona, for that matter.

To me, BR underuses and overuses players at times, some without apparent justification.

[Fromola]

I like to think of player rotation literally. Two players for a position each being deployed no more than two or three games in a row.

It doesn't have to be in every position, obviously.

I don't think BR does it. Nor does Barcelona, for that matter.

To me, BR underuses and overuses players at times, some without apparent justification.

Barca do rotate apart from Messi. And Messi is such a one off talent that he can walk through games when he needs to to conserve energy and still score a couple of goals.

On Sunday in the league, Barca rested Alves, Busquets, Fabregas and Pedro for example.

With Rodgers you're either in your out. You play every game in the league or you don't play at all; you're either in favour or you're not. Out of favour at the minute - Skrtel and Allen.

[loozy]

Barca do rotate apart from Messi. And Messi is such a one off talent that he can walk through games when he needs to to conserve energy and still score a couple of goals.

On Sunday in the league, Barca rested Alves, Busquets, Fabregas and Pedro for example.

And the one time they rested Messi for more than half the match, he got injured when he came on 

[Benimar Col]

Play the best team and go from there

[Thog]

I'm pretty sure Rodgers would change the squad more if we had the options to do so. As it stands we don't have the kind of squad that allows us to alter our formation and tactics depending on the opposition. It's virtually the same line up every game and this could lead to predictability within the side. For example, although Sturridge has made an immense start to his Liverpool career, teams will start sussing him out like they have with Suarez and we might start to become ineffective once again. We're not Barcelona so we can't get around that, teams know what they're going to do, it's just a case of stopping that's the hardest part. Again, going back to the Barcelona point, the quality of the squad isn't great so a lot of games may come down to tactically outwitting the other side if we want to win rather than trying to outclass them.

It's pretty good that we've stumbled across our first XI though, now we can identify the weak links in the group from now to the end of the season and look to rectify that in the summer. Then anyone that's not quite good enough, we can use them as squad players that can compete for a first team place, keep the first team players on their toes and give the manager some food for thought before selection. The wage expenditure may be high but it's the price you have to pay if you want a squad capable of challenging for honours.

I've always advocated rotation personally. This isn't 20 years ago, there are so many games in quick succession at such fast speed. If we're still looking to implement the pressing game then it will improve our fitness long term but in the short team it will take its toll on the lads so mixing it up regularly would be something we need to do to keep out fatigue and stop drop in morale.

[Fromola]

And the one time they rested Messi for more than half the match, he got injured when he came on 

He's not used to coming on off the bench. He comes on as sub once in a blue moon, so Barca just start him and let him play games at his own pace when he needs to conserve energy. Gerrard and Suarez have never played that way. Suarez is a workhorse and Gerrard's playing in the middle of the park where pressing, running and high energy are needed throughout the game. So it's daft not to manage their game time better. Even if it's just taking them off at 3 or 4-0 up.