Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 878863 times)

Offline oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2080 on: January 19, 2017, 08:19:43 pm »
The "man (woman) in the street" is the country.
Austerity is good for the country, it's supposed to get our economy back in the black.
Not very good for the man in the street.
All the right wing nutters are frothing at the mouth right now,how this new world they are about to create is so exciting.what they view as good for the country will not be good for the man in the street. am fed up using the working class tag. it always results in a answer of just who is the working class. :)
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2081 on: January 19, 2017, 08:34:33 pm »
He is old fashioned. I agree. But this list hasn't got him voting against gay rights? https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10544/dennis_skinner/bolsover/divisions?policy=826

Yeah, but it's not the class struggle is it? It's a bit of irrelevant stuff he's had to go along with for the past few decades. But Brexit? Well Brexit will allow the Labour party to get back down to brass tacks again. Capitalism v socialism, the class struggle and the conquest of the commanding heights of the economy (now in the UK once again). It's his security blanket. Just as it is for Corbyn.

This is why they wanted out of the EU for all those years. Now Article 50 and the Tory government is doing it for them. So Labour must fold its tents and support them.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2082 on: January 19, 2017, 09:12:53 pm »
Tony Benn must not have been rational then or Dennis Skinner isn't a rational person. Plenty of legitimate reasons as to why people voted to leave the EU. Doesn't mean its going to be absolutely brilliant but reasons do exist which doesn't include racism. The UK won't be the last to leave the EU either.

 You're absolutely right. Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner were/are utterly irrational ideologues and perennial losers who would happily see the Labour Party reduced to nothing in the name of their unachievable worldview.

 Like the hard right, they hate the EU because they see it as an obstacle to their utopia, being the "capitalists club" and all. Also like the hard right, they should never be allowed in a position where they might start trying to build said utopia. However, unlike the hard right they are nowehere near power so supporting Brexit for their favoured reasons is not only utterly bonkers but completely self-defeating.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 09:19:05 pm by TravisBickle »
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Offline BoRed

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2083 on: January 19, 2017, 09:25:41 pm »
Perennial losers? Neither of them has ever lost a single election, both held the post of the Chairman of the Labour Party, and Benn served in the cabinet under two different Prime Ministers.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2084 on: January 19, 2017, 09:30:16 pm »
Has any Labour MP ever been kicked out the party for refusing to vote with the Torys as it goes against party policy. you get the feeling theres going to be a lot of backtracking over this in the next few days.
How the hell did Corbyn not see this coming weeks ago.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Circa1892

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2085 on: January 19, 2017, 10:02:53 pm »
How the hell did Corbyn not see this coming weeks ago.

Because the only people who have less of a clue about how to effectively operate in politics than him are his senior advisers?

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2086 on: January 19, 2017, 10:38:35 pm »
Perennial losers? Neither of them has ever lost a single election, both held the post of the Chairman of the Labour Party, and Benn served in the cabinet under two different Prime Ministers.

 Tony Benn thought the 1983 general election result, which would have ensured the Labour Party's destruction had it not been for the expulsion of Benn's fellow travellers, was a great victory for socialism. Thatcher had the mandate she needed to rip the state to shreds, flog public assets at disgracefully cheap prices, send inequality through the roof and crush organised labour wholesale but Benn thought it was a great result for the left. Genuinely.

 Tony Benn was a good man. I feel he lost his way in his latter years but he was still a terrific speaker and an incredibly generous individual. I went to see him speak a few times before his death because I agreed with a lot of what he said. But yes, he very much came from the section of the party which revels in glorious defeat.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2087 on: January 19, 2017, 10:39:00 pm »
Perennial losers? Neither of them has ever lost a single election, both held the post of the Chairman of the Labour Party, and Benn served in the cabinet under two different Prime Ministers.

You what? Benn certainly lost an election.

And now you mention it he was a disastrous chairman (non elected) of the Labour Party and a complete failure - as he happily admitted himself - as a cabinet minister.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2088 on: January 19, 2017, 10:51:33 pm »
You what? Benn certainly lost an election.

I stand corrected, he lost one of course. Hardly makes him a perennial loser, though.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2089 on: January 19, 2017, 10:53:45 pm »
I stand corrected, he lost one of course. Hardly makes him a perennial loser, though.

Fortunately he lost the deputy leadership too.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2090 on: January 19, 2017, 11:07:10 pm »
It's a shame they didn't wait to mount the "coup" until now. Corbyn has to have lost a lot of his student etc supporters with this...
Seriously, would anyone want the job. It must be any rational person's worst nightmare.
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Offline hide5seek

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2091 on: January 19, 2017, 11:12:52 pm »
The fightback has started I see:
CON 42%, LAB 25%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 12%

Mind its not going that well.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2092 on: January 19, 2017, 11:16:25 pm »
The fightback has started I see:
CON 42%, LAB 25%, LDEM 11%, UKIP 12%

Mind its not going that well.
shouldnt that be in the lib dem thread?

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2093 on: January 19, 2017, 11:48:04 pm »
Gisela Stuart last week, Emily Thornberry this week and Diane Abbott next week. Quite a lot of shit Labour MP's getting on to Question Time.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2094 on: January 20, 2017, 12:08:44 am »
Gisela Stuart last week, Emily Thornberry this week and Diane Abbott next week. Quite a lot of shit Labour MP's getting on to Question Time.
you must be gutted you were two weeks late for Diane Abbott

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2095 on: January 20, 2017, 12:29:33 am »
Never mind, she's on next week.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2096 on: January 20, 2017, 02:03:13 am »
I agree. But the right-wing case is more "rational" than the left-wing one. Dennis Skinner is probably the biggest conservative in the House of Commons. His political views are stuck in Clay Cross and in 1972. He even dresses like it's 1972. Nothing that's happened since 1972 merits anything but scorn from Skinner, including feminism, gay rights and the multi-racial society we now live in. But time has destroyed his 1972 idea of "socialism in one country". Inevitably. Like Corbyn, he's a relic or a fossil.

Whereas the Tories do at least have a modern version of England outside Europe. (They're deluded it will be Britain of course). Theirs is a vision of an offshore tax haven, with zero immigration and an entirely de-regulated domestic economy with a non-unionised, docile and pliant workforce. Singapore without the maths skills basically. It's ghastly, but it's coherent and it could be made to work.

The only thing to be said in favour of Corbyn (and Skinner) is that this vision, if enacted, will sharpen class conflict (because when it comes down to it we are not Singapore) and allow them to feel relevant again for the first time in 40 years. They are old men, conservative to the core, who want to get back to the simple-minded politics of their youth.

That's all Greek to me.
This sentence is not provable

Offline oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2097 on: January 20, 2017, 02:12:54 am »
That's all Greek to me.
Maybe ive got it wrong but looks pretty clear to me.
The Torys are screwing the country for themselves and some of them actually think their acting in the best interests of the country.
The old Labour men will be made up when the Torys screw up the country as it will result in poverty etc etc etc. along come the left wing Labour to save the day.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2098 on: January 20, 2017, 08:28:19 am »
The Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, has accused Jeremy Corbyn of “lamely giving up” while Britain “drives off a cliff” towards Brexit, and said future generations will not forgive Labour for failing to stand up to Theresa May’s plans.

In an overt attempt to steal votes from Labour in pro-remain constituencies, Farron said he believed Corbyn had put his party on the wrong side of the biggest political issue in a generation and was struggling because his MPs were increasingly split on how to respond.

“I think what Labour has done is to believe this is too difficult for them politically, let’s just wait for it to go away, and the meeker we are, the quicker it will go away. I think that’s the calculation they’ve made, and this and future generations are not going to forgive them for that,” he said. “We are saying that Jeremy Corbyn and now Keir Starmer [the shadow Brexit secretary] as well – you have a Labour party from top to bottom that is failing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/19/lib-dem-leader-tim-farron-accuses-labours-jeremy-corbyn-of-giving-up-over-brexit

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2099 on: January 20, 2017, 08:55:58 am »
Should be fun.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38683298

While there is likely an element of truth in what he is saying regarding the SNP (though all parties can be accused of having a Janus like disparity between what they say at Westminster and what they actually practice), unfortunately his claims will likely fall on very stony ground up there these days.

Perhaps too little, too late.

....A spokesman for the SNP said: "Jeremy Corbyn's comments are exactly the sort of carping from the sidelines that Kezia Dugdale warned about when she said that Labour would be unelectable under his leadership.

"Labour in Scotland are stuck in a sorry place between completely irrelevant and totally desperate, and today's reunion is set to be a prickly affair.

"Just last week Jeremy Corbyn fatally undermined Kezia Dugdale's plans on the constitution - and the attempts to paper over the cracks with this contrived photo op will fool no one.

"But it's not just internal Labour division that is driving voters away, it's the fact that nobody knows what purpose they serve.

"While the SNP are standing up for Scotland against a Tory hard Brexit, Labour have capitulated to the Tories at Westminster - opening the door to economic catastrophe."


It's difficult to argue against those retorts from the SNP, particularly that last one.



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Offline BoRed

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2100 on: January 20, 2017, 09:38:26 am »
The Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, has accused Jeremy Corbyn of “lamely giving up” while Britain “drives off a cliff” towards Brexit, and said future generations will not forgive Labour for failing to stand up to Theresa May’s plans.

In an overt attempt to steal votes from Labour in pro-remain constituencies, Farron said he believed Corbyn had put his party on the wrong side of the biggest political issue in a generation and was struggling because his MPs were increasingly split on how to respond.

“I think what Labour has done is to believe this is too difficult for them politically, let’s just wait for it to go away, and the meeker we are, the quicker it will go away. I think that’s the calculation they’ve made, and this and future generations are not going to forgive them for that,” he said. “We are saying that Jeremy Corbyn and now Keir Starmer [the shadow Brexit secretary] as well – you have a Labour party from top to bottom that is failing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/19/lib-dem-leader-tim-farron-accuses-labours-jeremy-corbyn-of-giving-up-over-brexit

Says the leader of the party that brought the Tories into power in the first place, without which there'd have been no referendum at all.

Corbyn has unilaterally decided that the Labour party will back up everything May's government does on Europe. In other words it has told the country that it does not want to be the Opposition.   

That's a bit of a hyperbole. The job of the opposition is not to oppose the government on everything by default. Plenty of motions in parliament get passed with support from both (or all) sides. For example, the European Union Referendum Act of 2015 was opposed only by the SNP. Labour, then led by Harriet Harman, voted for it (Owen Smith, Hilary Benn, Tristram Hunt, Dan Jarvis, Alan Johnson, Sadiq Khan, and all the rest of them included), despite Ed Miliband opposing the referendum throughout his leadership. Jeremy Corbyn, true to form, was absent. ;D

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2101 on: January 20, 2017, 11:27:11 am »
Says the leader of the party that brought the Tories into power in the first place, without which there'd have been no referendum at all.

That's a bit of a hyperbole. The job of the opposition is not to oppose the government on everything by default. Plenty of motions in parliament get passed with support from both (or all) sides. For example, the European Union Referendum Act of 2015 was opposed only by the SNP. Labour, then led by Harriet Harman, voted for it (Owen Smith, Hilary Benn, Tristram Hunt, Dan Jarvis, Alan Johnson, Sadiq Khan, and all the rest of them included), despite Ed Miliband opposing the referendum throughout his leadership. Jeremy Corbyn, true to form, was absent. ;D

And it's the existence of others that gets the blame, rather than the actions of Corbyn and co. Corbyn will never get the blame for his actions. As far as his supporters are concerned, the Labour party is there to serve Corbyn's opinions. Whatever his opinion happens to be at any point in time is the correct position for Labour to take. If it happens to change during the course of a day, then his opinion is still correct throughout the course of that day. It's up to the Labour party, and as the above shows, the rest of the country, to re-adjust themselves to follow his position (which is always correct) as it changes through the course of that day.

What's that line about East Asia and Eurasia?
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2102 on: January 20, 2017, 11:30:10 am »
Corbyn's choice to fight Copeland byelection rejected by local party.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2103 on: January 20, 2017, 11:33:55 am »
And it's the existence of others that gets the blame, rather than the actions of Corbyn and co. Corbyn will never get the blame for his actions. As far as his supporters are concerned, the Labour party is there to serve Corbyn's opinions. Whatever his opinion happens to be at any point in time is the correct position for Labour to take. If it happens to change during the course of a day, then his opinion is still correct throughout the course of that day. It's up to the Labour party, and as the above shows, the rest of the country, to re-adjust themselves to follow his position (which is always correct) as it changes through the course of that day.

What's that line about East Asia and Eurasia?

The Orwell allusion is spot on. After all the modern day Corbynists are exactly the type of British socialist that Orwell was satirising in 1984.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2104 on: January 20, 2017, 11:33:56 am »
Corbyn's choice to fight Copeland byelection rejected by local party.

 ;D


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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2105 on: January 20, 2017, 11:33:59 am »
Says the leader of the party that brought the Tories into power in the first place, without which there'd have been no referendum at all.

This is bollocks. The referendum was a Tory pledge for the 2015 General Election. That election was Labour's to win, and they ran an abject campaign.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2106 on: January 20, 2017, 11:37:58 am »
Corbyn's choice to fight Copeland byelection rejected by local party.

Nothing worse than the leadership trying to parachute in their choice of candidate.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2107 on: January 20, 2017, 11:40:18 am »
Nothing worse than the leadership trying to parachute in their choice of candidate.

She had only just joined the party too, a small but definite victory for the moderates.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2108 on: January 20, 2017, 11:54:20 am »
The Orwell allusion is spot on. After all the modern day Corbynists are exactly the type of British socialist that Orwell was satirising in 1984.

McDonnell being O'Brien I assume?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2109 on: January 20, 2017, 11:56:39 am »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2110 on: January 20, 2017, 12:07:44 pm »
You're absolutely right. Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner were/are utterly irrational ideologues and perennial losers who would happily see the Labour Party reduced to nothing in the name of their unachievable worldview.

 Like the hard right, they hate the EU because they see it as an obstacle to their utopia, being the "capitalists club" and all. Also like the hard right, they should never be allowed in a position where they might start trying to build said utopia. However, unlike the hard right they are nowehere near power so supporting Brexit for their favoured reasons is not only utterly bonkers but completely self-defeating.
Is it a straight battle between Capitalism v Socialism?. What is the general view on here between both? Does anyone here think Capitalism should be destroyed?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2111 on: January 20, 2017, 12:24:25 pm »
Is it a straight battle between Capitalism v Socialism?. What is the general view on here between both? Does anyone here think Capitalism should be destroyed?

It should be reformed. Notwithstanding Clause 4, that's been the Labour party's approach to capitalism since its foundation. No one who is serious believes that it would be a wise thing to eliminate free markets in the modern world. That's been tried. It produced a catastrophe - starvation, police states, economic sclerosis, and political butchery beyond belief.

The aim, instead, should be to eliminate markets from areas of life where they do not belong - health, education, social security, the police force, the prison service, the railways, the nuclear industry, the water supply and - more contentiously - gas and electricity. As Michael Sandel said recently, the problem isn't that we live in market economy, but that we are beginning to live in a market society where everything has a price and money-relations start to warren all parts of our life, warping our values and our priorities. Elsewhere, in the production and distribution of goods and services, the free market should be regulated to prevent massive inequalities and stupid inefficiencies to develop.

If this were all done I'd be happy to call the result democratic socialism, or social democracy.

Though I understand that your more dogmatic and 'religious' type socialist would call it a massive cop out. 
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2112 on: January 20, 2017, 12:29:42 pm »
Is it a straight battle between Capitalism v Socialism?. What is the general view on here between both? Does anyone here think Capitalism should be destroyed?

The Labour party should be doing their best for the British people, regardless of how you label the resultant ideology. The reverse is what McDonnell does, which is to pursue an ideology defined by him, and shape the British people to fit that ideology. In the latter case, more suffering for the British people is welcome news for his faction, as they assume it means a more fertile ground for their ideology.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline oldfordie

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2113 on: January 20, 2017, 12:31:51 pm »
Is it a straight battle between Capitalism v Socialism?. What is the general view on here between both? Does anyone here think Capitalism should be destroyed?
Your talking about the extremes of both. how the socialists want to tear down the capitalist system how the capitalists exploit the system keeping us in poverty. etc
The problems isnt so much that these systems dont work, it's the extremes people go to f.. it all up. greed.
If we did ever tear down this capitalist system it would be replaced with another hierarchy of corrupt leaders all in it for themselves. human nature is the problem.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline BoRed

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2114 on: January 20, 2017, 12:34:47 pm »
This is bollocks. The referendum was a Tory pledge for the 2015 General Election. That election was Labour's to win, and they ran an abject campaign.

Not nearly as abject as the Lib Dems, though. It was the coalition government that took the hostile line towards the EU, trying to get the UK an even more special status, resulting in the public opinion swing against the EU. And even when the Tories made it clear that they were planning to call a referendum, the Lib Dems still stayed in that coalition. They could have brought down that government at any chosen point, and now they expect us to believe that they will save us from the Tories.

Miliband may have run an abject campaign, but he was against the referendum throughout. The Lib Dems now pinning the blame for Brexit on Labour is utter hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:37:55 pm by BoRed »

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2115 on: January 20, 2017, 12:40:02 pm »
Not nearly as abject as the Lib Dems, though. It was the coalition government that took the hostile line towards the EU, trying to get the UK an even more special status, resulting in the public opinion swing against the EU. And even when the Tories made it clear that they were planning to call a referendum, the Lib Dems still stayed in that coalition. They could have brought down that government at any chosen point, and now they expect us to believe they will save us from the Tories.

Miliband may have run an abject campaign, but he was against the referendum throughout. The Lib Dems now pinning the blame for Brexit on Labour is utter hypocrisy.

You are saying that the Lib Dems should have brought down the government over a manifesto pledge for the next parliament? There were many reasons why they should have collapse the coalitions, but policies being put to the electorate should never be one. What the Tories were planning on standing on was nothing to do with the Lib Dems. If they disagree with another party's manifesto, they need to convince the electorate not to vote them in. The Lib Dems were punished for the coalition electorally. Labour were punished because they ran a really crap campaign.


Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2116 on: January 20, 2017, 12:43:13 pm »
Miliband may have run an abject campaign, but he was against the referendum throughout. The Lib Dems now pinning the blame for Brexit on Labour is utter hypocrisy.

They are complaining about the reaction to the Brexit vote. The country did not vote for a right wing free market Nirvana. Labour are currently nodding along and complicit with sleepwalking into the Tory choices. "Leave the EU" does not have to mean May's plan. There are many less damaging interpretations, but there is no challenge to the Tories from the Labour front bench. 

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2117 on: January 20, 2017, 01:16:29 pm »
Your talking about the extremes of both. how the socialists want to tear down the capitalist system how the capitalists exploit the system keeping us in poverty. etc
The problems isnt so much that these systems dont work, it's the extremes people go to f.. it all up. greed.
If we did ever tear down this capitalist system it would be replaced with another hierarchy of corrupt leaders all in it for themselves. human nature is the problem.
But isn't greed just part of society? I mean you only have to look at footballers who earn astronomical amounts of money. Greed is a natural reaction. I don't see how you will be able to eliminate that. It has always been weird how we talk about spreading wealth around and yet we are happy for our football clubs to spend hundreds of millions on transfers and millions on wages with no hint of irony.

Offline BoRed

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2118 on: January 20, 2017, 01:16:43 pm »
They are complaining about the reaction to the Brexit vote. The country did not vote for a right wing free market Nirvana. Labour are currently nodding along and complicit with sleepwalking into the Tory choices. "Leave the EU" does not have to mean May's plan. There are many less damaging interpretations, but there is no challenge to the Tories from the Labour front bench. 

I disagree entirely with the Labour front bench's approach. However, I still believe that the Lib Dem posturing is no more than, as the article says,
an overt attempt to steal votes from Labour in pro-remain constituencies

Anyone considering voting for the Lib Dems should remember 2010.

Oh, and I'm not suggesting they should have brought down the government over a manifesto pledge for the future elections. I'm suggesting that it was the government they were part of that stoked up the anti-EU rhetoric and embraced a hostile approach towards the EU. If they objected to that, they should have stepped out. And, for the record, the Tories proposed a referendum bill in parliament as early as 2013, it passed with the full support of David Cameron, and tacit acceptance of the Lib Dems who abstained (as did Labour), but was then blocked by the House of Lords.

I am, of course, also suggesting that they should never have gone into a coalition with the Tories in the first place, and that I wouldn't trust them not to do so again if the opportunity arises.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #2119 on: January 20, 2017, 01:18:27 pm »
They are complaining about the reaction to the Brexit vote. The country did not vote for a right wing free market Nirvana. Labour are currently nodding along and complicit with sleepwalking into the Tory choices. "Leave the EU" does not have to mean May's plan. There are many less damaging interpretations, but there is no challenge to the Tories from the Labour front bench.
I think if May could remain in the Single Market but gain control on EU immigration she would. But it isn't possible. The EU won't budge on it. It is a red line for them.