Topic: Nobby's Green Thread. A great party with great ideas. A great bunch of lads!

[nyctex]

Best thing right now for the western democracies is if the greens suck votes from the reds in the UK just like in the rest of Western Europe. 

[jooneyisdagod]

Best thing right now for the western democracies is if the greens suck votes from the reds in the UK just like in the rest of Western Europe. 

As long as the UKIP, BNP, National Front, National Democratic Party, Golden Dawn etc can dilute the votes of the conservatives, I think it's not too much of an issue.

[nyctex]

As long as the UKIP, BNP, National Front, National Democratic Party, Golden Dawn etc can dilute the votes of the conservatives, I think it's not too much of an issue.

I don't disagree that the greens are just as out of the mainstream. Glad we can agree the greenies are just as far out of the main stream.   

Thing is those parties are pulling from the working classes( except for UKIP).   The Greens are pulling from the pseudo-intellectual upper middle class.  A much smaller cohort. 

[jooneyisdagod]

I don't disagree that the greens are just as out of the mainstream. Glad we can agree the greenies are just as far out of the main stream.   

Thing is those parties are pulling from the working classes( except for UKIP).   The Greens are pulling from the pseudo-intellectual upper middle class.  A much smaller cohort. 

I like how you said pseudo-intellectual when it appears Greens voters are most concentrated among university towns and inner-cities which have the highest percentage of university graduates i.e. the intellectuals of tomorrow.

And the Greens are pulling in a far younger crowd, with a far better representation of women (You know, roughly half the human species) and most of them are well educated, and less religiously dogmatic.

Now if the greens are pulling a much smaller cohort, then that's good for Labour/socialist parties across Europe. If they're pulling a much larger cohort, that's great as well because it shows a clear rise in a new party that speaks for a lot of younger people.

On the other hand, if the likes of the UKIP are pulling in real large numbers of voters and splitting the Tory vote, then that's great for Labour/socialist parties across Europe.

Secondly, what is mainstream now might not be mainstream soon. The greens appear to be much more popular among younger people who are the ones that are going to be voting a few elections down the line as well. It appears many of the policies in line with sustainability etc might actually be more mainstream in the future. 

[nyctex]

I used the term "pseudo intellectual" on purpose. Suck away the comfortable middle class left leaning voter into a Green Party is actually, to a point, a good for the country as a whole. 

I also pointed out that the "natural" voter of the left parties, "the working class", are moving away from the left wing  parties across Europe.   They are ones most immediately damaged by the policies of the greenies.  That isn't a good thing.  What they, the country, needs is  liberal (in the classic sense) economic growth. 

[jooneyisdagod]

I used the term "pseudo intellectual" on purpose. Suck away the comfortable middle class left leaning voter into a Green Party is actually, to a point, a good for the country as a whole. 

I also pointed out that the "natural" voter of the left parties, "the working class", are moving away from the left wing  parties across Europe.   They are ones most immediately damaged by the policies of the greenies.  That isn't a good thing.  What they, the country, needs is  liberal (in the classic sense) economic growth. 

Of course you put in the pseudo-intellectual comment on purpose. It's what they call a dig.

Irrespective of the comfortable middle class voter liking the greens or not, their policies are a lot closer to that of the traditional socialist parties. So yes, you should in theory have the working class gravitate towards them but historically, comfortable middle class voters have gone for the socialist parties anyway. It's quite telling that the Greens have stolen most of their votes from the Lib Dem and Labour which suggests that they're actually getting both the middle class vote as well as some of the working class vote in the UK.

The rest of Europe is a bit different because the class divide as I understand it is less pronounced. It's harder to draw conclusions from there. It's also telling that you maintain that the ones that are most damaged by the policies of the Greens are the working classes and you are clamouring for the conservatives whose policies are most beneficial to the rich. I understand that the left is completely dead in the US but that doesn't appear to the case in Europe even right now.

And no, I'm not some anti-business Trotskyist either. I just believe in equality and sustainability. Both are cornerstones of the Greens policies. 

[Henry Chinaski]

Begging you leftist British people to vote for change for once. 'Third way' socialism is an invention by Blair to remain the USA's lapdog. It has worsened since. With the budget cuts, the tories are obviously fucking the economy up in the long term. Please vote green, leftists, it's not impossible, and it can change the outlook of world politics.

Edit: if your green party is pro-E.U., that is of course

[nyctex]

And no, I'm not some anti-business Trotskyist either. I just believe in equality and sustainability. Both are cornerstones of the Greens policies. 

The economic policy of the greens and the economic policy of the the "far right" populist parties on the continent or the BNP aren't that dissimilar.  You just have different pantomime villains.  Both want government control. 

The greens just want to feed money to their 1%ers that benefit from the tax breaks and subsidies they are offering. 

[nyctex]

Begging you leftist British people to vote for change for once. 'Third way' socialism is an invention by Blair to remain the USA's lapdog. It has worsened since. With the budget cuts, the tories are obviously fucking the economy up in the long term. Please vote green, leftists, it's not impossible, and it can change the outlook of world politics.

Edit: if your green party is pro-E.U., that is of course

The UK isn't under "austerity".  That's a fiction. 

[Henry Chinaski]

The UK isn't under "austerity".  That's a fiction. 

Haha, why, because they still have the NHS?

[Max_powers]

The greens just want to feed money to their 1%ers that benefit from the tax breaks and subsidies they are offering.

Okay I am not sure if Green party will live up to there promises(very few parties ever do) but even if they manage to keep some of there promises a lot more than 1% of people will benefit.

from there Website

"Many of the securities that our parents and grandparents fought for – a functioning National Health Service, free education, and an affordable home – now look out of reach for most of us."

"We believe that public services should be for the benefit of the public, not sold off in bits; we believe that education is worth investing in and not something that should mean a lifetime of debt; we believe in leaving behind a better world for our children and grandchildren."

And to say that these policies are similar to policies of Far right parties is beyond silly.

In Canada too we are facing a similar conundrum We have Conservatives and Liberal but really Liberals are a center party and this has led to rise of NDP and Green party. In last election although Conservatives won, NDP overtook Liberals as the second biggest party causing Liberal Party to push forward a more left wing leader this time around.

[nyctex]

Haha, why, because they still have the NHS?

Just look at the expenditures

[jooneyisdagod]

Okay I am not sure if Green party will live up to there promises(very few parties ever do) but even if they manage to keep some of there promises a lot more than 1% of people will benefit.

from there Website

"Many of the securities that our parents and grandparents fought for – a functioning National Health Service, free education, and an affordable home – now look out of reach for most of us."

"We believe that public services should be for the benefit of the public, not sold off in bits; we believe that education is worth investing in and not something that should mean a lifetime of debt; we believe in leaving behind a better world for our children and grandchildren."

And to say that these policies are similar to policies of Far right parties is beyond silly.

In Canada too we are facing a similar conundrum We have Conservatives and Liberal but really Liberals are a center party and this has led to rise of NDP and Green party. In last election although Conservatives won, NDP overtook Liberals as the second biggest party causing Liberal Party to push forward a more left wing leader this time around.

Pretty much. The Greens are not anti-business but certainly they have place a great deal of value on the value of some institutions like the NHS. But more globally, the Greens have shown that they value things like freedom and education. This is definitely the case here in Australia.

And you're absolutely spot on about how the Greens won't live up to their initial promise and they'll probably have to make some deals if they ever want to have a position of power, which I sincerely hope they don't do for the record (Would make them like any other political party) but even if they do, their overall policies look far more promising to me as an average person that those of the conservatives and the mainstream parties. 

[nyctex]

Okay I am not sure if Green party will live up to there promises(very few parties ever do) but even if they manage to keep some of there promises a lot more than 1% of people will benefit.

from there Website

"Many of the securities that our parents and grandparents fought for – a functioning National Health Service, free education, and an affordable home – now look out of reach for most of us."

"We believe that public services should be for the benefit of the public, not sold off in bits; we believe that education is worth investing in and not something that should mean a lifetime of debt; we believe in leaving behind a better world for our children and grandchildren."

And to say that these policies are similar to policies of Far right parties is beyond silly.

Silly?

“Marketisation,” and particularly the Conservative-created Private Finance Initiative (PFI) schemes imposed by Gordon Brown, has been a disaster which is saddling Trusts and the taxpayer with enormous debts. We totally reject this attempt to turn the nation’s health service into a private profit centre for giant corporations.

The abolition of fees for most university students? Yup.

Electoral planks of the BNP. 

Just saying the far left and the far right are much closer than you'd like to admit. 

The banksters cannot be let off the hook for their role in the current financial crisis. The *********** demands that the banksters responsible for the catastrophe which has crippled the international banking system be held personally legally liable for their actions in terms of corporate governance laws. They should have to pay a personal price for the mess they have created, and not be rewarded with huge bonuses which have come from taxpayer-funded bailouts.

Whose manifesto did I pull this from?   Hard to tell.

[jooneyisdagod]

Source: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010


Now people on RAWK can actually take the same test and see where they end up and then perhaps decide on which party might be most suitable to their needs.


I'm going to go out on a whim and say most people on the website will be in and around where the Greens sit.

[jooneyisdagod]

Whose manifesto did I pull this from?   Hard to tell.

Nah. Very easy actually. It says banksters and therefore has to be the BNP.

[Max_powers]

Yes but those policies are not what make those parties far right do they. Its more to do with there Anti Immigration gay, Anti Gay , Anti EU rhetoric. Its like saying FDR and Hitler were both politically on the same page because both invested large sums of money in infrastructure in response to the great depression.

[sms1986]

Source: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010


Now people on RAWK can actually take the same test and see where they end up and then perhaps decide on which party might be most suitable to their needs.


I'm going to go out on a whim and say most people on the website will be in and around where the Greens sit.

I've taken this test a few times and I'm always in the green box.

[viteslesrouges]

Suspected I was always meant to be a Green Party follower, and when I used Vote For Policies it pretty much confirmed it for me.

I came out 50% Green, 50% Labour on this............not surprised really but no Green candidate in my area.

Some of those policies from other parties look as if they come complete with uniforms. Real scary shit

[jooneyisdagod]

I've taken this test a few times and I'm always in the green box.

  You're far out mate. I'm probably slightly more libertarian than the current Greens position and slightly more business friendly but still firmly in the green. Actually, well into the green.


Edit: Just checked and I'm just slightly more libertarian than the Greens. One point in fact.

[MarkoStudge]

I fall into the green segment as well, and I think a lot of people would. The main problem for the Greens is the fact that so many people feel forced to vote strategically to keep out the Tories and now, I guess, Ukip, so the Greens rarely get a look in. I suppose a lot of people vote based on their family's voting history - if you come from a family which traditionally has always voted Labour or always voted Tory, you'd probably vote for them by default rather than consider other options, even if they align better with your ideology. Not everyone, but I think there's a tendency.

[adopted_scouser]

I will definitely vote green if they are running in my local constituency.  Previous General Elections though, have just been Lib/Lab/Con.  In which case, I'd rather spoil my ballot paper.

[Card Cheat]

Suspected I was always meant to be a Green Party follower, and when I used Vote For Policies it pretty much confirmed it for me.

77% Green, 22% Lib Dem and squarely in the middle of the Left-Libertarian box on the political compass.

I live in a very marginal constituency though, with a Tory MP. So by the wonders of FPTP I'll be voting Labour. 

[Redman0151]

Source: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010


Now people on RAWK can actually take the same test and see where they end up and then perhaps decide on which party might be most suitable to their needs.


I'm going to go out on a whim and say most people on the website will be in and around where the Greens sit.

It makes me happy that I nearly perfectly line up with the greens in every one of these online tests



I don't care if my vote is "wasted", i'll still vote green every single time

[Elmo!]

Came out more extreme than I thought.  I live in a seat that will be between Labour and the SNP, so  the SNP will be getting my vote but in the next Scottish election where we partly have PR, the Greens will get my regional vote.

[TwatMan]

Seems I'm a centrist. 

[PattoLFC]

Suspected I was always meant to be a Green Party follower, and when I used Vote For Policies it pretty much confirmed it for me.

Good little site that. Just had a go at it and it turns out I'm green on most issues apart from welfare in which I lean towards Labour.  I've also had discussions with classmates at university before I graduated and many do seem to be turning away from the main parties and towards the likes of the greens.  Obviously its only a small sample size but it is interesting nonetheless in my opinion.

I like how you said pseudo-intellectual when it appears Greens voters are most concentrated among university towns and inner-cities which have the highest percentage of university graduates i.e. the intellectuals of tomorrow.

Do you know of anywhere where I could see the demographic of potential voters for the greens? I presume you have read or heard something on the matter with this statement. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I have found something on the topic here. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/green-party-will-have-a-significant-if-not-decisive-impact-on-the-2015-election/

[dave 5516]

Yup.

[zebenzui]

What I expected to be honest. Already knew the Greens were the party most aligned with my convictions.

[RedJim]

Just had a go on that VoteForPolicies site linked earlier and came out with majority Green and the rest Lib Dem. Likewise, when I take the political compass test I'm generally in the same area as the Greens, maybe a bit further down and to the left.

According to VoteForPolicies, 26% of the country lean towards the Green party - imagine if they were given some kind of platform in the media the way UKIP has 

In my constituency, the Green Party would take 25% of the vote, followed by Labour with 21%. I tried a few other postcodes I knew from around Liverpool and its more or less the same, Greens 25-30%

The sad thing is, in my constituency the BNP and UKIP both got 12% of people's support based on that website. Now, when taking that test I found it very easy to pick out which 2 policies belonged to both of those parties and was actually quite shocked at how nasty some of the policies were. Obviously, I was aware of what these parties stood for but to see it written out like that made me think, how can people take this stuff seriously? I find it hard to believe that over 20% of the people in my area really support those kind of policies. I remember taking the political compass test when I was in school around the time of the last election and a lot of people came out closer to the Green party than anything else.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

On this link above you can see just how far Labour has moved in the last 40 years 

I'll definitely be voting Green again next time around. As has been said above, it would be nice if people took the time to do that test and had the courage to vote for who they really believe in. I've had people tell me it's a wasted vote but I reckon it's more of a waste to vote for someone you don't really like. That sounds a bit idealistic and romantic when I'm writing it out but it just makes more sense to me. I can understand the need to tactically vote but I'm no kind of political expert when it comes to those kind of things, so fire away politically-minded RAWKites if I'm talking shite  .

[TepidT2O]

What I expected to be honest. Already knew the Greens were the party most aligned with my convictions.

Blimey... You are left of Lenin!



I was almost exactly the same as the Green Party.... But I'm too much of a rationalist to vote for them at the moment.

[GREGtheRED]

I have great sympathy with so many Green causes but the problem I would have voting for them in a General Election stems from the horror I would feel if, in some bizarre twist of fate, they gained a degree of genuine influence in parliament. I think they would be hopelessly inadequate when forceful, decisive leadership in our nation's interest was needed on issues security, international affairs etc. Quite simply I think our international rivals would walk all over a government comprising the Greens and another in coalition.

[macca007]

I have great sympathy with so many Green causes but the problem I would have voting for them in a General Election stems from the horror I would feel if, in some bizarre twist of fate, they gained a degree of genuine influence in parliament. I think they would be hopelessly inadequate when forceful, decisive leadership in our nation's interest was needed on issues security, international affairs etc. Quite simply I think our international rivals would walk all over a government comprising the Greens and another in coalition.

And that fear is based on what? Genuine question cos for me its something you wont know until they get the chance

My ideals fall in line with the greens on everything except nuclear and having done the test it came out that way.  I want to see a change in the way things are currently run an ill be voting for them

[Red Beret]

I'm definitely thinking about joining.  The Liverpool Labour group needs a decent opposition.  I myself also wonder if the Greens can show the "spine of leadership" if you will, but perhaps that's why people like ourselves need to be more actively involved with them?  The members help shape the group.

[jooneyisdagod]

I was almost exactly the same as the Green Party.... But I'm too much of a rationalist to vote for them at the moment.

Why do you say that mate ?

[Red Beret]

link deleted - sorry, didn't realise the article referred to a poll in the scum.

[OOS]

Greens will have my vote.

[Trada]

Just used that site and nearly every policy I agreed with was the Greens.

I will vote for them now.

[mulfella]

So what we have here are a number of people who should be green voters but irrationally won't vote for them

[zebenzui]

So what we have here are a number of people who should be green voters but irrationally won't vote for them

Whilst citing rationality for not doing so, yes.

Blimey... You are left of Lenin!

I guess some ideals don't die with age