Topic: It's important to win... but more important not to lose.

[Chat Rifles]

Top six form guide for the last eight league games.

Liverpool 46
won 3 last eight
14/24 points

Man Utd 44
won 6 last eight
20/24 points

Chelsea 42
won 2 last eight
10/24 points

Aston Villa 41
won 6 last eight
20/24 points

Arsenal 38
won 5 last eight
15/24 points

Everton 35
won 5 last eight
16/24 points


Hopefully we can cut out the silly draws and get 20 or so points from the next eight games starting with the blue shite on Monday.

[Byrneand]

This obsession with the way Man Utd play is getting embarrassing. Nearly as embarrassing as some of the 'We should play like Arsenal and Chelsea' posts that seem to have disappeared for some reason.
I can remember The Mancs saying exactly the same thing for 20 odd years as they watched us pull further away from them and their obsession became greater and greater, which compounded every poor result and made each season the worst ever for them.

Mate in the last 20 years the Mancs have won 9 leagues more than us and 1 European cup more than us. It's worth considering how they have done that and what it takes to consistently perform in the league. On the face of it, it would appear putting more attackers on in the last 10 minutes and putting balls in the box has been more successful than what we've been doing.

Just throwing it out there... it could be worth giving it a whirl for a game or two and seeing what happens.

Out of interest what games over the last few years do you think we have done this.... have we been successful or not??

I can think of Olympiakos is about the only time really. Even against AC Milan the 2nd time we didn't see Crouch come on until late.

Thoughts....

[The_Nomad]

if the crowds nervous its because they lack belief - this will make its way to the players - think CL final in reverse

The fans are  going to be just as important as Rafa and the players in getting this title

Absolutely vital point. For years we have wanted to be intimately involved in a title race. Well people we got what we wanted. Now it's time to prove our mettle. The players, manager and fans. The fact that Whiskey breath is actually giving us the time of day must mean something. The heat is on and we HAVE to stay in the kitchen.

It's been so long since we were involved in a title race, most of us have forgotten what that's like. The older fans will remember.

[IOMRed]

Mate in the last 20 years the Mancs have won 9 leagues more than us and 1 European cup more than us. It's worth considering how they have done that and what it takes to consistently perform in the league. On the face of it, it would appear putting more attackers on in the last 10 minutes and putting balls in the box has been more successful than what we've been doing.

Just throwing it out there... it could be worth giving it a whirl for a game or two and seeing what happens.

Out of interest what games over the last few years do you think we have done this.... have we been successful or not??

I can think of Olympiakos is about the only time really. Even against AC Milan the 2nd time we didn't see Crouch come on until late.

Thoughts....

Good post mate, you'll be slated by some I am sure but I think it is fair to say both Houllier and Rafa err on the side of caution. I remember Ged having a spell of playing Kewell, Smicer, Heskey, Owen, Gerrard and Murphy all in the same team, lasted about 6 games before he bottled it and reverted to safety first. Shame

[Barnes & Beardsley]

It's not just the media though mate...our own fans can be just as bad..if not worse at times.

If we have so many negatives and Man Utd so many positives......where the fuck have Man Utd been all season because they've been nowhere near us.

It might sound embarrassing to some, but facts are facts. I have no problem acknowledging what other teams are doing regardless of rivalry.

We like to claim we have the best defence and this player is better than that player despite the fact, as a unit we concede more goals and have less clean sheets than United and Chelsea and we also allow all & sundry to score past us. Not to bring up United again, but only three teams outside the big 4 have scored (5) past them all season and 3 came from Hull. They’ve racked up 14 clean sheets (only two goalless draws Villa & Spurs) and 9 consecutively in their last 9 games. Their only questionable results are Newcastle on the first day of the season, Everton and Spurs. Last 9 games won 7 and drawn 2. It’s been said time and time again by ex managers and pros that titles are won by having an excellent home record. So far they have won 9 and drawn 1. It would be ridiculous to completely disregard these things. Let’s be honest, as a manager what record would you be more confident with going into the remainder of the season?

Everyone is pointing towards March when we play them as a very important game, judging by our record of beating mediocre opposition it might be too late by then. We still have a poor record against lower half opposition and after several years we still haven’t managed to rectify this problem. Why is it that we haven’t mastered to tactically out play these inferior teams effectively and on a consistent basis? Year in year out, it’s the same fucking story.

Ian Rush

"The title is there for the taking this year. United, Chelsea and Arsenal have all dropped points but so have Liverpool, and they are top of the table.

"I don't think anybody has taken the initiative to go and win the league this year but the team to beat and the standard to match is United - whoever ends up above them will be champions.

"They set the standard and, even though they have dropped off slightly this season, nobody else has been able to raise their game.
 
"Chelsea are still in with a shout too but Liverpool are in a position where they have got to take advantage and move up to a new level themselves.

[JamieB]

Winning isn't important, it's everything...

[shanklyboy]

Mate in the last 20 years the Mancs have won 9 leagues more than us and 1 European cup more than us. It's worth considering how they have done that and what it takes to consistently perform in the league. On the face of it, it would appear putting more attackers on in the last 10 minutes and putting balls in the box has been more successful than what we've been doing.

Just throwing it out there... it could be worth giving it a whirl for a game or two and seeing what happens.

Out of interest what games over the last few years do you think we have done this.... have we been successful or not??

I can think of Olympiakos is about the only time really. Even against AC Milan the 2nd time we didn't see Crouch come on until late.

Thoughts....

You are saying that Man Utd have won 9 titles and 2 European Cups because they threw an extra forward on for 10 mins?Tactical genius that Ferguson feller.
I wonder if that's where Mourinho got the idea from with John Terry.

The key to your post is in the first line. They have been doing it for 20 years. Rafa is into his 5th year while Ferguson is in his 23rd. You don't see the difference?
Why is it that Man Utd have one of the worst goal scoring records away from home this season (9) if they are so good at attacking?
Why do Liverpool have one of the best(19)if we are so poor?

[Yorkykopite]

You are saying that Man Utd have won 9 titles and 2 European Cups because they threw an extra forward on for 10 mins?Tactical genius that Ferguson feller.
I wonder if that's where Mourinho got the idea from with John Terry.

While agreeing with you on this shanklyboy, I think it's fair to say that Man United used to risk a lot more than we currently do when they were hunting  down their first title in yonks. The number of times that those bastards used to score in the last five minutes back in the 90s. made yer sick. 

[LpoolHope5*]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/4241733/Wayne-Rooney-injured-as-Manchester-United-toil.html

excellent report from the telegraph - apparently not everything at the glams is perfection and one of their roughians is out for 3 weeks.   

[Byrneand]

You are saying that Man Utd have won 9 titles and 2 European Cups because they threw an extra forward on for 10 mins?Tactical genius that Ferguson feller.
I wonder if that's where Mourinho got the idea from with John Terry.

I don't watch every Man U game.... i try not to watch any if I can. But I know when I have, if they are trailing they absolutely pile everyone forward and get more than their fair share of late goals.

The key to your post is in the first line. They have been doing it for 20 years. Rafa is into his 5th year while Ferguson is in his 23rd. You don't see the difference?.

It took Ferguson 5 years for one main reason..... LFC

Why do Liverpool have one of the best(19)if we are so poor?

26% of the reason is because we played Newcastle.

[kasperoff]

And if we went for the win in both games and lost both?

I think quality will shine through here. I think if we went for the throat against Stoke both times with a full strength side (ie, Torres and Keane up front), then we'd have taken both games. I really do believe that. We are blessed with some fantastic defenders, let them defend, not worry too much about shielding them with 2 midfielders.

Get the bias of the team up top and hurt them. Our team against Stoke was weighted towards the back, and that where the ball stayed for the majority of the same.

[zamagiure]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/4241733/Wayne-Rooney-injured-as-Manchester-United-toil.html

excellent report from the telegraph - apparently not everything at the glams is perfection and one of their roughians is out for 3 weeks.  

But they done what we cant do when not playing well.

[shanklyboy]

The number of times that those bastards used to score in the last five minutes back in the 90s. made yer sick. 

Sounds familiar that mate?

[LpoolHope5*]

But they done what we cant do when not playing well.

score after 54 seconds and the struggle for the rest of the game?

The facts suggest that the frequent media perception of a juggernaut coming up the league to reclaim the title is not reflected in the performances or the margin of victory (excluding Chelsea!)   

[zamagiure]

While agreeing with you on this shanklyboy, I think it's fair to say that Man United used to risk a lot more than we currently do when they were hunting  down their first title in yonks. The number of times that those bastards used to score in the last five minutes back in the 90s. made yer sick. 

Oh how we used to do  that in the 80s

[Yorkykopite]

Sounds familiar that mate?

Toshack-Keegan. One nil! (Kop goes fucking wild)

[kasperoff]

Where is the urgency that we showed earlier in the season, namely Manchester City away and Wigan at home?

When we needed a result Rafa went balls out for it.

I'd prefer to win one and lose one than draw two. Sure a 10 game unbeaten run sounds good but it's fuck all use if 6 of them are draws. You get the same amount of points for 6 wins and 4 losses.

I've been patient up until now but it's getting very frustrating knowing that the league is there for the taking and we're not making the most of it.

I'm still a glass half full person though and reckon we could still win it. We need to show some more bollocks though.

I honestly think we can go the rest of the season unbeaten. Whether we can win enough (12/13 out of 17) remains to be seen.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure 5 draws on the bounce would be as bad, if not worse psychologically than 3 wins and 2 losses. This 'keeping momentum by drawing' argument has no legs for me.

[shanklyboy]

I don't watch every Man U game.... i try not to watch any if I can. But I know when I have, if they are trailing they absolutely pile everyone forward and get more than their fair share of late goals.

You made the comment about what Man Utd had done over 20 years, so I fail to see the relevence of your comments about not watching every Man Utd game.
If you think your comments stretching back over 20 years have any credibility it's a strange comment to make.

How about this season?

It took Ferguson 5 years for one main reason..... LFC

I don't see your point there.
However, it has taken Benitez this long to compete with Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea rather than just one team.

26% of the reason is because we played Newcastle.

As I said in an earlier post. It seems when we beat a team easily, the opposition is shite.
When Man Utd do it , it's because they are so good.
I'll use your logic and take away the 4 goals Man Utd scored against West Brom at home, then take away the 5 we scored against Newcastle away and hey presto.......we've still scored more goals than them. How can that be possible when we are so cautious?

I  know it's a popular misconception at OT but we've actually played more away games than Man Utd, so unless they can score another 10 in one game to bring their total up to ours, then I doubt, barring a miracle that they will have a better away record than ours this season. How can we have won 3 more away games than them?

[shanklyboy]

Toshack-Keegan. One nil! (Kop goes fucking wild)

Are they fit for Monday?
I've heard Heighway has a niggle!

[kasperoff]

We didn't beat Stoke because we played shite.
It has nothing to do with being negative or fielding too many defensive or none attacking players.
We could barely string any passes together apart from the opening 20 mins.If you stop passing you reduce the chance of building any momentum and that's what we did.
I'm sick of hearing about how negative Rafa is against the 'lesser' teams, while the other top teams are ultra positive.
Man Utd have scored 9 goals away from home for fucksake. We scored more than half of that against Newcastle. I didn't hear anyone saying we were negative in that game.
In fact only 5 teams have scored fewer than Man Utd away. Portsmouth (7), Fulham (2), Boro (8 ), Stoke(6) and West Brom (4).
However we are cautious and negative while Man Utd are free flowing attacking monsters.
Strange then that only Chelsea with the best away record in the country have scored more goals than us.

Does anyone remember Chelsea away this season? Negative?

Why would Rafa suddenly adopt negative tactics against lesser teams but go for the throat against Chelsea away?
Could it possibly be that in those games there were other factors to be considered. Playing well might be a factor or is that too simplistic and not fit into the Skypundit viewpoint that has been portrayed several times this season about Rafa and his cautious approach.

As I've mentioned in another thread.....In our last away league game against Newcastle we fielded this team:

REINA
INSUA
AGGER
HYYPIA
CARRAGHER
BABEL
LUCAS
MASCHERANO
BENAYOUN
GERRARD
KUYT

Against Stoke it was this:

REINA
AURELIO
SKRTEL
HYYPIA
CARRAGHER
RIERA
LUCAS
MASCHERANO
BENAYOUN
GERRARD
KUYT

The only difference were the forced changes to Insua and Agger, and Riera being preferred to Babel.
So 2 forced changes to defenders and a more productive attacking player being preferred.
Did anyone think these were defensive before each game?

So what was the difference? I'd suggest that against Newcastle we actually played well....that was the top and bottom of it.
We passed the ball well, had good movement off the ball and subsequently created chances.

Against Stoke we never got started and never looked likely to.We didn't control the game for long periods and never gave ourselves a base to build from because our passing was so poor. There was little space to play in the final 3rd and we neded to keep the ball.We didn't and paid the price.

You can change all the peronnell you like but if they don't do the basics you will struggle.

Difference was, Newcastle were shite, and Stoke were decent. The fact remains that it was clear as day we were struggling against Stoke. At half time that team should have had a makeover. Gerrard in the middle, Lucas out for Torres. Kuyt out right and perhaps Benny behind Torres, if not off for Keane.

Instead of going balls out, Rafa was happy to see the game go the way it did, because we didn't really look like loosing. . . . . . problem is, we never really looked like winning either, and that's what I thing the original poster is saying.

We have seen him take drastic action at HT before, namely Istanbul, so we know he is capable of it. 0-0 at HT to Stoke should be seen in the same light as loosing at HT in the Champions league when we are in for our 1st title race for 20 years. These lost points might be reducing us all to tears come May. Loosing the title by 1 point to Man Utd will hurt a lot more than loosing the Champions league final, I can assure you that. We should be doing everything possible ti take 3 point in every game from here on in.

[shanklyboy]

Difference was, Newcastle were shite, and Stoke were decent. The fact remains that it was clear as day we were struggling against Stoke. At half time that team should have had a makeover. Gerrard in the middle, Lucas out for Torres. Kuyt out right and perhaps Benny behind Torres, if not off for Keane.

Instead of going balls out, Rafa was happy to see the game go the way it did, because we didn't really look like loosing. . . . . . problem is, we never really looked like winning either, and that's what I thing the original poster is saying.

We have seen him take drastic action at HT before, namely Istanbul, so we know he is capable of it. 0-0 at HT to Stoke should be seen in the same light as loosing at HT in the Champions league when we are in for our 1st title race for 20 years. These lost points might be reducing us all to tears come May. Loosing the title by 1 point to Man Utd will hurt a lot more than loosing the Champions league final, I can assure you that. We should be doing everything possible ti take 3 point in every game from here on in.

Do you think that it's possible your plan might not have worked.

I know Rafa is a clueless bumbling Spaniard who doesn't have much of an idea of how to win ugly or against lesser teams.Apart from the teams we beat easily of course..who are always shite. Even though Man Utd couldn't score against  Newcastle at home,  and really struggled to beat Stoke away.....only managing 2 attempts all game. He's obviously tactically inferior to most other managers too. So he probably wouldn't think of going for all 3 points.

[Yorkykopite]

Are they fit for Monday?
I've heard Heighway has a niggle!

Christ, don't tell Bill.

[shanklyboy]

Christ, don't tell Bill.

He told me mate....gave me a quick bell and asked for a bit of advice.

So I put him straight....had to be done.
Weeeeellll you don't want to see him struggling!

[caninecatcher]

Difference was, Newcastle were shite, and Stoke were decent. The fact remains that it was clear as day we were struggling against Stoke. At half time that team should have had a makeover. Gerrard in the middle, Lucas out for Torres. Kuyt out right and perhaps Benny behind Torres, if not off for Keane.

Instead of going balls out, Rafa was happy to see the game go the way it did, because we didn't really look like loosing. . . . . . problem is, we never really looked like winning either, and that's what I thing the original poster is saying.

We have seen him take drastic action at HT before, namely Istanbul, so we know he is capable of it. 0-0 at HT to Stoke should be seen in the same light as loosing at HT in the Champions league when we are in for our 1st title race for 20 years. These lost points might be reducing us all to tears come May. Loosing the title by 1 point to Man Utd will hurt a lot more than loosing the Champions league final, I can assure you that. We should be doing everything possible ti take 3 point in every game from here on in.

Think it's a bit simplistic to say newcastle were shit and stoke weren't. After the first 5-10 minutes i thought we were going to tear them apart, we were passing well and keeping our heads. For the rest of the game however we got dragged down to their level and our passes became more hurried and there were too many desperate balls played and far far too many balls played to no one.

[kasperoff]

Do you think that it's possible your plan might not have worked.

I know Rafa is a clueless bumbling Spaniard who doesn't have much of an idea of how to win ugly or against lesser teams.Apart from the teams we beat easily of course..who are always shite. Even though Man Utd couldn't score against  Newcastle at home,  and really struggled to beat Stoke away.....only managing 2 attempts all game. He's obviously tactically inferior to most other managers too. So he probably wouldn't think of going for all 3 points.

Do you think what I suggested would have given us a better chance of taking the points?

[Shanks1965]

The original post was not about saying we should play like Man United, neither was it a mild form of worship. Sure they have not played well this season and they have stuggled to win a few games 1-0 but thats the point I'm trying to make. They WON those games 1-0, they didnt draw them 0-0 and the reason they won them was more than likely that they continued to push forward and take chances to get that all important goal. Thats what we dont do enough of at times. I don't mind how we play, I've learned to appreciate Rafa's controlling 'crushing' style of football but in the last 20 minutes when the goal hasn't come we have to be prepared to take more chances. That means get our attacking players on the pitch and or push more men forward. The benefit of doing so even it resulted in an even split between winning and losing games would be .... more points.

I've looked at the Premieship table for the past 5 years and this is one of the things it says. The team that has won the league has never won less than 26 games.

07/08   27 wins
06/07   28 wins
05/06   29 wins
04/05   29 wins
03/04   26 wins

How many games are we going to win this season? We will have to win 13 of our last 17 games to get up to 26 and thats the lowest number since 2004. The league is determined by who gets the most points and thats largely determined not by how many games you don't lose but by how many games you win. The key to winning the league is winning games and thats what we have to be prepared to do. To go for the win even at the risk of losing the game. Good sides are more than likely in my view to go on and win such games than lose them.

This season the league may well be won by a team with 25 or 26 wins but thats where we are going to have to get to, to have any chance of winning it I think and to do that we will have to turn a few of those draws into victories.

[cuppatea]

Newcastle offered us all the time and space in the world, Stoke got in our faces. Newcastle allowed our lightweight duo of Benayoun and Lucas room to use their footballing ability, Stoke bullied them off the ball and out of the game. Newcastle gifted Gerrard the freedom of St James Park, Stoke kept him tightly marked and cut off his supply. Newcastle committed men forward and were easy to hit on the counter, Stoke defended in numbers and remained compact throughout. Newcastle allowed us to play through their middle, Stoke forced us outside, with our only real outlet on the right being Jamie Carragher. Newcastle were a complete and utter shambles in defence and played right into our hands, Stoke were well organized, with their entire game based on stopping us play, which proved worryingly easy for them to do.

They were 2 totally different types of opposition requiring different approaches so I don't for one minute buy the "if it worked against Newcastle it should have worked against Stoke" argument.

Even if the initial team selection can be justified (though I felt it was wrong even before kickoff), our game stagnated after around 20 minutes and yet we waited until an hour had passed before making our first change, once again leaving our £20m striker on the bench for the full 90.

We all applauded Rafa's boldness after the City comeback earlier in the season and I'm sure many hoped it would be a sign of things to come. Unfortunately he has reverted to type somewhat as the season has progressed, showing very little will to "go for it" late in games, despite the fact we've now drawn 5 of our last 8 against mostly very ordinary opposition and look set to be overtaken by Utd, whose odds of winning the title are shortening almost by the day.

We've shown a weakness for years at breaking down stubborn, well organized defences and that continues to be the case. While I'm sure the quality of our attacking players (or lack thereof) contributes to that, I believe Rafa's (overly) cautious approach does too, which is something we can more easily address.

[keyo]

One other thing to consider when discussing whether we should or shouldn't be throwing on strikers towarss the end of a game is what impact that has on ball retention, delivery of the ball, etc......play with alot of strikers and inevitably you have to get the ball there alot quicker, as you haven't the personnel to pass the ball around to get it there.......so the delivery is more likely to longer and inevitably a percentage long ball.......if you are playing aginst a tight well disciplined defence, like stoke's, that is going to play into their hands......changes in shape can deliver results, such as didi in istanbul, babel against arsenal in the clqf, not putting extra players in the box, but changing the shape of the game to enable better delivery, control, etc.

there are times to get more strikers on, and times to change your shape, and times to gamble......but that tends to be at 1 down, when a gamble is warranted as there is nothing to lose

what i think we don't do as well as we can/should is condense the play in the opposition half......where teams are compact and disciplined, we tend to stay deep to draw them out, where that isn't working we should be pressing the game and trying to play our game further up the field.....players like xabi, gerrard, etc. do good work all over the park and can do their work on the edge of the box as well as on the half-way line.....and the percentages then shift in your favour, the bonce of the ball, ricochets, bits of skill, etc....all of these have higher pay-offs when they go for you when you are camped in the last third of the pitch.....you will have games like stoke at home where fuck all goes your way, but as a rule they will be the exception, luck, good fortune, skill, etc. will pay off as you pressure the opposition.

we can do that more, and i believe that is one of the improvements that we could make to turn some of the draws into wins, even when we are not plaing that well, and particulalry at home......that and increasing our tempo during the game to pressurise opponents (again, something we are very good at when we do do it).....not massive changes, and neither changing our principles, but building on the foundation of those principles

not massive changes, but ways of continuing to build on our impressive season so far.....

[liverpoolfcmike]

Lets promote Dalla Valle. We could do a hell of a lot worse.

[redprodigal]

Newcastle offered us all the time and space in the world, Stoke got in our faces. Newcastle allowed our lightweight duo of Benayoun and Lucas room to use their footballing ability, Stoke bullied them off the ball and out of the game. Newcastle gifted Gerrard the freedom of St James Park, Stoke kept him tightly marked and cut off his supply. Newcastle committed men forward and were easy to hit on the counter, Stoke defended in numbers and remained compact throughout. Newcastle allowed us to play through their middle, Stoke forced us outside, with our only real outlet on the right being Jamie Carragher. Newcastle were a complete and utter shambles in defence and played right into our hands, Stoke were well organized, with their entire game based on stopping us play, which proved worryingly easy for them to do.

They were 2 totally different types of opposition requiring different approaches so I don't for one minute buy the "if it worked against Newcastle it should have worked against Stoke" argument.

Even if the initial team selection can be justified (though I felt it was wrong even before kickoff), our game stagnated after around 20 minutes and yet we waited until an hour had passed before making our first change, once again leaving our £20m striker on the bench for the full 90.

We all applauded Rafa's boldness after the City comeback earlier in the season and I'm sure many hoped it would be a sign of things to come. Unfortunately he has reverted to type somewhat as the season has progressed, showing very little will to "go for it" late in games, despite the fact we've now drawn 5 of our last 8 against mostly very ordinary opposition and look set to be overtaken by Utd, whose odds of winning the title are shortening almost by the day.

We've shown a weakness for years at breaking down stubborn, well organized defences and that continues to be the case. While I'm sure the quality of our attacking players (or lack thereof) contributes to that, I believe Rafa's (overly) cautious approach does too, which is something we can more easily address.

Can't argue with that, good post.

[jckliew]

Toshack-Keegan. One nil! (Kop goes fucking wild)

Dalglish-Rush   ONE NIL YOHHHHH!

You can only go for the late goals iF you go for it.......

[jckliew]

I've looked at the Premieship table for the past 5 years and this is one of the things it says. The team that has won the league has never won less than 26 games.

07/08   27 wins
06/07   28 wins
05/06   29 wins
04/05   29 wins
03/04   26 wins

How many games are we going to win this season? We will have to win 13 of our last 17 games to get up to 26 and thats the lowest number since 2004. The league is determined by who gets the most points and thats largely determined not by how many games you don't lose but by how many games you win. The key to winning the league is winning games and thats what we have to be prepared to do. To go for the win even at the risk of losing the game. Good sides are more than likely in my view to go on and win such games than lose them.

This season the league may well be won by a team with 25 or 26 wins but thats where we are going to have to get to, to have any chance of winning it I think and to do that we will have to turn a few of those draws into victories.

Great analysis.....Rafa should take note as he luvs stats.

If rafa is not prepared to win games......it will helluva long wait for no.19

[firing squad]

Last season we drew 7 games at home in the league, 13 in total. This season we have drawn 4 already at home and have also failed to score in 5 league games. That’s too many. Draws don’t win the league, three points does. We are top but we know that we are there (basically on the same points as we had last season) partly because United and Chelsea have not scored as many points as they normally would at this stage.

So with the best chance in years of making it 19 why are we not going for it? We finished the game on Saturday with a £20m striker on the bench. Why? Why in the last 10 minutes when we were running out of time and ideas, did Rafa not throw the dice and stick Keane on at the expense of a defender? Honestly, I don’t know but we have all heard Rafa say… “it’s important to win but more important not to lose”. Does therein lie the problem? Is it a cautiousness borne out of winning the league in Spain where more teams drew in the course of a season? If so then we have a problem because after four and a half years Rafa hasn't yet learned that to win the league in England you have to win the large majority of games. You don’t win it with draws.

We hate unfavourable comparisons with our 'friends' down the East Lancs but we all watch United attack with 7 or 8 players when they need a goal. They do it all the time and have done for years. They did it on Sunday against Chelsea, not when they needed a goal but when they were already one nil up. How many times have we seen Fergusson throw attackers on at the expense of defenders when they need a goal? At Stoke they finished the game with Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Scholes and Giggs on the pitch, all of them goal scorers. We finished the game with Gerrard and Torres as our only real goal scoring threat.

So why don’t we go for it? Is it not worth risking the one point we have to get the maximum three? Even if it goes pear shaped two out of three times (which I doubt it would) we’d still end up with the same points so what really do we have to lose? Compared to the risk of getting the extra points to win the league it’s a risk worth taking in my view. How many times do we sit watching the game thinking (or singing) … attack… attack…attack, when we need a goal?

So are we letting number 19 slip through our fingers because Rafa can’t let his team of the leash? I fear we may be. Now I love the man. I think he’s a great manager and this isn’t having a pop at him or his tactics. He's doing a good job under difficult circumstances and I'd have settled for finishing 2nd close behind the leaders at the start of the season. But now we have a REAL chance to win it. I know having watched Liverpool sides since the early seventies that you need to go for teams at times to win games and to win leagues and I just don’t see us doing that enough, unless we are losing. We’ve done it when we absolutely have to. City away, two nil down at half time. Hull at home, two nil down, Boro at home, one nil down with 10 minutes to go, Wigan at home, twice behind. Istan bleeding bul !!!!!! So why don’t we do it when we are drawing? Because it’s important to win… but more important not to lose?

I’ve been predicting since the start of the season that we would win it this time and I still believe we will but increasingly now thats down to a stubborn belief rather than a confidence that we will get more points than anyone else.

So my hope is for Rafa to realise that he has the players to take teams apart and if he would only sometimes send them out not to beat teams but to batter them I actually think we would do it. Number 19 is within our grasp, we just have to have the courage to grab hold of it and make it ours.

Top post and I've been thinking and saying it for a while now.Rafa is too cautious and settles for a point when he should go for the whole 3. As you said,in the PL it's better to win and lose than to have 2 draws.It's fine for Cups but it doesn't work in the league

Unfortunately,that settling for a draw almost all the time isn't anything new to Rafa,his teams have always had a similar number of draws over a season.It worked in Spain but it doesn't work in England. When we need a goal against most of the clubs in the league we should throw in all the offensive talent we have,that's how you win the league.

[jckliew]

One other thing to consider when discussing whether we should or shouldn't be throwing on strikers towarss the end of a game is what impact that has on ball retention, delivery of the ball, etc......play with alot of strikers and inevitably you have to get the ball there alot quicker, as you haven't the personnel to pass the ball around to get it there.......so the delivery is more likely to longer and inevitably a percentage long ball.......if you are playing aginst a tight well disciplined defence, like stoke's, that is going to play into their hands......changes in shape can deliver results, such as didi in istanbul, babel against arsenal in the clqf, not putting extra players in the box, but changing the shape of the game to enable better delivery, control, etc.

there are times to get more strikers on, and times to change your shape, and times to gamble......but that tends to be at 1 down, when a gamble is warranted as there is nothing to lose

what i think we don't do as well as we can/should is condense the play in the opposition half......where teams are compact and disciplined, we tend to stay deep to draw them out, where that isn't working we should be pressing the game and trying to play our game further up the field.....players like xabi, gerrard, etc. do good work all over the park and can do their work on the edge of the box as well as on the half-way line.....and the percentages then shift in your favour, the bonce of the ball, ricochets, bits of skill, etc....all of these have higher pay-offs when they go for you when you are camped in the last third of the pitch.....you will have games like stoke at home where fuck all goes your way, but as a rule they will be the exception, luck, good fortune, skill, etc. will pay off as you pressure the opposition.

we can do that more, and i believe that is one of the improvements that we could make to turn some of the draws into wins, even when we are not plaing that well, and particulalry at home......that and increasing our tempo during the game to pressurise opponents (again, something we are very good at when we do do it).....not massive changes, and neither changing our principles, but building on the foundation of those principles

not massive changes, but ways of continuing to build on our impressive season so far.....

One thing is to throw strikers at the end and another to start with Kyut.

the start aganist lowly opposition is as importnat as the finish. To start Kyut as LONE striker vs stoke was statement in itself......that the team was set out firstly not to lose......with that, one can only interpret that a win is not fisrt and foremost on Rafas mind

[keyo]

One thing is to throw strikers at the end and another to start with Kyut.

the start aganist lowly opposition is as importnat as the finish. To start Kyut as LONE striker vs stoke was statement in itself......that the team was set out firstly not to lose......with that, one can only interpret that a win is not fisrt and foremost on Rafas mind

yep, agree with that point....what i am talking about is overall, if you look at any one game in isolation you will come up with many assertions that would not apply to other games.....as for setting out not to lose, I think rafa would have sent the defence he did as a sgtatement of "not wanting to lose" i.e. negating their strengths...that policy appeared to have worked because we did in general deal with their threat

as for the players up front, kuyt may well be seen as some as a "defensive" striker, but he had our 2 best chances in the first half, and would usually have taken one....his heading is good and you would expect him to have converted the chance early on, and the second one showed he is a danger on the ground in the box and the keeper produced a good save......so he may not be keane or torres, but he was good enough to get a couple of chances and should have put them away......again, a problem we seem to have whoever plays and whoever plays up front

[shanklyboy]

Do you think what I suggested would have given us a better chance of taking the points?

Why don't you just answer the question I asked instead of answering it with another one. We might get somewhere then.

[LondonLFCFan]

Good opening post. But take this situation into consideration.

On the evening of the Stoke game, it had been blinding cold. Ground was hard and slippery. The Stoke players were like big ruffians bullying our players by being right in front of their faces. They prevented us from playing our usual game of football. They came with a well rehearsed plan and carried it out pretty successfully.

None of our players could play well under these circumstances.
Rafa Benetiz has planned for this situation. He would not want to risk injuring our main strikers. Kuyt is always hard working and tough. Work horse that will get us through the game. Keane could be hurt as well as Torres and would not be worth the risk. Better live through it and fight another day when conditions are better. No one could really demonstrate any ball control on that pitch that evening.

Rafa Benetiz has already taken into account that for this game, without Xavi, it could go either way. Stoke by name looks easy on the cards, but on the pitch, it was a different matter on a bleak winters evening with t he aim of being big and physical and looking to spoil our evening.

Glad Rafa decided to be cautious and took the draw without us losing our key players that would matter in our games from now to the end of the season. On the big picture, we are at the top and will be somewhere near to our main rivals. Rafa will go for his third operation, happy with the knowledge that all is still intact back at Headquarters.

Rafa Benetiz has ruffled Fergie pride, causing him to throw caution to wind to overtake us at the top. Last I heard, most of his main players were limping on injured, from his own words. He has done what Rafa has expected, ie. gave Chelsea such a thrashing that would dent their believe in being able to compete this season. Another one bites the dust.... in January.

Rafa Benetiz is not just a tactician on the field. He takes into consideration of the conditions of each game that our players face. He watches keenly on how the players are performing during the match. If the team is not able to perform well, like not even able to string a few passes comfortably, and can't even boss the midfield, that's when he will take stock near the end, and hold on for a draw.

Rafa Benetiz is also a tactician when it comes Fergy and mind games. He has taken the time to study Fergy all these years and has a pretty good idea how he ticks. Predictable, is the word that comes to mind.

It is going to be a long season, on and off the field and I'm waiting in anticipation on how it unfolds.

We are now in the best position on the table to start our season from. Our players are back from injuries and when Rafa recuperates well enough from his operations ....... hold on to your seats.

Oh, don't tell Fergie..... what say you ?

[jckliew]

"what say you ?"

If this is true, Rafa should become a psycho. He should leave footie alone........

Or he should play all the second string players in dec/jan so that they are all rested and well for the warmer months....

[Barnes & Beardsley]

Good opening post. But take this situation into consideration.

On the evening of the Stoke game, it had been blinding cold. Ground was hard and slippery. The Stoke players were like big ruffians bullying our players by being right in front of their faces. They prevented us from playing our usual game of football. They came with a well rehearsed plan and carried it out pretty successfully.

None of our players could play well under these circumstances.
Rafa Benitez has planned for this situation. He would not want to risk injuring our main strikers. Kuyt is always hard working and tough. Work horse that will get us through the game. Keane could be hurt as well as Torres and would not be worth the risk. Better live through it and fight another day when conditions are better. No one could really demonstrate any ball control on that pitch that evening.

Rafa Benitez has already taken into account that for this game, without Xavi, it could go either way. Stoke by name looks easy on the cards, but on the pitch, it was a different matter on a bleak winters evening with t he aim of being big and physical and looking to spoil our evening.

Glad Rafa decided to be cautious and took the draw without us losing our key players that would matter in our games from now to the end of the season. On the big picture, we are at the top and will be somewhere near to our main rivals. Rafa will go for his third operation, happy with the knowledge that all is still intact back at Headquarters.
 

…I’m not one to hark on about the past, but back in my day we used to play in the snow and the old orange balls would come out. There was none of this fancy under soil heating, the pitches were an absolute state and we were lucky if the grass was even cut regularly. To counteract the bitter cold we would wear our warmest briefs, a thermal vest, two pairs of socks and also an extra coating of that warm oily shit that you would rub on your legs. (Oh by the way, what is the name of that? The smell of that alone and the sound of everyones studs on the solid concrete floor in the changing rooms was always enough to get me fired up). There weren’t any complaints of the physical aspect of the game because after all, we were not playing netball. No luxury of bubble wrap and cotton wool, we simply shrugged it off and got on with it. Before the next game, we would have an extra serving of shredded wheat and an extra glass of milk for our brittle bones…

Sorry no offence mate. Some of that it obviously a piss take, but I’m sure you get my point.

[keyo]

"what say you ?"

If this is true, Rafa should become a psycho. He should leave footie alone........

Or he should play all the second string players in dec/jan so that they are all rested and well for the warmer months....

Based on the reaction of most of the papers this week, one would have to think rafa has already gone psycho!!