Author Topic: Joe Allen  (Read 304854 times)

Offline Chakan

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2400 on: July 29, 2014, 03:17:58 pm »
He's a decent player, doubt he'll ever be the star of the team, but handy at what he does.

Just needs to really cut out that "getting caught in possession" bit of his game. Happened a few times last season and just seems to lose a bit of concentration.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2401 on: July 29, 2014, 03:18:29 pm »
fuck Rinus Michels. wtf did he know? sodding wannabee. Also Gusztáv Sebes, fuck him. Paisley, Stein and Clough as well while we're at it, wankers. Waste of sodding time listening to any of that lot—I've got it sussed just by watching.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2402 on: July 29, 2014, 08:41:35 pm »
My view on Allen is that he has good qualities for a CM and his supposed role in the team usually calls for an experienced player so I think for now he is good to have in the squad and maybe in 2 years he will have the experience to go along with his quality to be a main stay in the starting 11. If we can get by with the quality we have in CM till then then good for him.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2403 on: July 29, 2014, 09:22:44 pm »
He's a decent player, doubt he'll ever be the star of the team, but handy at what he does.

Just needs to really cut out that "getting caught in possession" bit of his game. Happened a few times last season and just seems to lose a bit of concentration.
Couldn't disagree more. He's one of our best players at passing out of tight spaces and very rarely gets caught as you say.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2404 on: July 29, 2014, 09:23:26 pm »
Couldn't disagree more. He's one of our best players at passing out of tight spaces and very rarely gets caught as you say.

Got caught out in the previous game and happened a few times last season as well.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2405 on: July 29, 2014, 09:30:33 pm »
Got caught out in the previous game and happened a few times last season as well.
He had one bad back pass in his first pre-season game, hardly horrific. Last time I checked he had one of the lowest error counts in our entire squad last season so I'm not sure where you're getting your view from.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2406 on: July 29, 2014, 09:31:35 pm »
He had one bad back pass in his first pre-season game, hardly horrific. Last time I checked he had one of the lowest error counts in our entire squad last season so I'm not sure where you're getting your view from.

From watching him play last season. I remember him getting caught in possession a few times, and no i'm not going to watch the whole season back just to find those games. It's what I remember. Agree to disagree.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2407 on: July 29, 2014, 09:33:33 pm »
From watching him play last season. I remember him getting caught in possession a few times, and no i'm not going to watch the whole season back just to find those games. It's what I remember. Agree to disagree.

Every player will get caught out though. It's the amount of times they get caught with the ball. Allen has fewer than most players.
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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2408 on: July 29, 2014, 09:37:58 pm »
He had one bad back pass in his first pre-season game, hardly horrific. Last time I checked he had one of the lowest error counts in our entire squad last season so I'm not sure where you're getting your view from.
He got caught out in the last game as well.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2409 on: July 29, 2014, 09:43:47 pm »
From watching him play last season. I remember him getting caught in possession a few times, and no i'm not going to watch the whole season back just to find those games. It's what I remember. Agree to disagree.
Thankfully you don't have to watch the whole season back as someone has already been kind enough and compiled a list of errors:

http://basstunedtored.com/2014/05/29/error-log-201314/ (scroll down to the 3rd table)

Only two players in our first team squad (Suarez and Lucas) had better 'mins per error' stats than Allen last season, and his only registered error was at Cardiff - and that error didn't even lead directly to a shot on goal but was him being dispossessed in midfield and then followed by another series of defensive lapses that led to a goal (like Agger leaving a massive space behind Flanagan and then getting dumied like a Sunday league player by Frazier Campbell...).

Please feel free to provide some statistics to the contrary, but until then I will disagree with you  ;)

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2410 on: July 29, 2014, 09:48:00 pm »
Thankfully you don't have to watch the whole season back as someone has already been kind enough and compiled a list of errors:

http://basstunedtored.com/2014/05/29/error-log-201314/ (scroll down to the 3rd table)

Only two players in our first team squad (Suarez and Lucas) had better 'mins per error' stats than Allen last season, and his only registered error was at Cardiff - and that error didn't even lead directly to a shot on goal but was him being dispossessed in midfield and then followed by another series of defensive lapses that led to a goal (like Agger leaving a massive space behind Flanagan and then getting dumied like a Sunday league player by Frazier Campbell...).

Please feel free to provide some statistics to the contrary, but until then I will disagree with you  ;)
Yeah but to be fair those stats are compiled using data from competitive matches whereas losing possession in a preseason friendly is what really counts.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2411 on: July 29, 2014, 10:07:47 pm »
Yeah but to be fair those stats are compiled using data from competitive matches whereas losing possession in a preseason friendly is what really counts.
You're absolutely right. Sorry about that guys  :-X

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2412 on: July 30, 2014, 12:46:24 am »
From watching him play last season. I remember him getting caught in possession a few times, and no i'm not going to watch the whole season back just to find those games. It's what I remember. Agree to disagree.

He does get caught in possession at times. It's about average for his position according to statbomb. When you are playing for a top 4 contender in the Premier League you would perhaps want that a little lower.  What that doesn´t take into account is the positions it happens in. Allen´s was particularly bad last game as he was the deepest midfielder with the center halves split so it looked a certain goal. Here is a comparison with Emre Can, just to give you an idea how differently they play the midfield role.





As you can see, Allen gets caught with the ball about half as often as Can. Then again Can dribbles twice as often with it so that it to be expected just as I would expect Lallana to get caught on the ball at least twice as often than Allen too. Looking at whoscored.com, below is the number of times a player either is dispossessed(d) or turns-over(t) possession of the ball.

Gerrard 0.5 d / 0.5 t   -   t+d = 1.0 per game
Henderson 0.7d / 0.8 t - t+d = 1.5 per game
Allen 1.1 d / 1.1 t    -   t+d = 2.2 per game
Lucas 0.4 d / 0.5 t    -   t+d = 0.9 per game
Can 1.4 d / 0.8 t   -   t+d = 2.2 per game*

* - Can´s numbers include his time at fullback. Statsbomb have this split out for just his CM performances in the above radar. Unfortunately I don´t have the means to do likewise.

It you were to plot those on a graph against how often they attempt to beat players with the ball it would pretty much be a perfect correlation between dribbles attempted and how often players lose the ball. So the likes of Coutinho (t+d=2.5) & Sterling (t+d=3.2) have far higher numbers than the likes of Lucas (t+d=0.9. We accept that as that is their role in the side. They also have far more completed dribbles (Sterling 2.8 per game, Coutinho 1.8 p.g. & Lucas 0.2 p.g.)

Similar to Can, we want Allen to do that at the higher end of the pitch and avoid doing so nearer his own goal like at the weekend. It´s one thing losing the ball as a full back in an attacking position or as an attacking midfielder trying to weave into the box. Another entirely to lose it as the last midfielder.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 12:50:30 am by BabuYagu »
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Offline Boer_War

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2413 on: July 30, 2014, 10:55:53 pm »
fuck Rinus Michels. wtf did he know? sodding wannabee. Also Gusztáv Sebes, fuck him. Paisley, Stein and Clough as well while we're at it, wankers. Waste of sodding time listening to any of that lot—I've got it sussed just by watching.

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Offline Haemoglobin

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2414 on: July 30, 2014, 11:08:54 pm »
I find playing the game helps.... You wouldn't understand sorry. Enjoy your book.
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Offline Lemieux

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2415 on: July 31, 2014, 02:34:19 am »
Yeah I've always thought he has qualities to do well for us but I'm starting to wonder if he will ever do it consistently for us. I am sure Rodgers is going to give him every chance to do so though.

Offline Zoomers

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2416 on: July 31, 2014, 02:37:45 am »
Can't help but be really excited about this lad. I just think he looks so confident too which is great too.

20 too, he's a beast. Proper unit.

Wrong thread.
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Offline Popcorn

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2417 on: July 31, 2014, 02:40:25 am »
Wrong thread.
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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2418 on: July 31, 2014, 02:46:15 am »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2419 on: July 31, 2014, 02:48:00 am »
The more and more we see him it looks like Rodgers wants a kind of mirror image of Henderson - or at least the option of fielding one - for the 2 in the 1-2 midfield.  Both bombing up and down the field, using the dribble well vertically, which Emre appears to do better than Allen.  I think a lot of us including myself thought Emre would be more of a competitor for Gerrard, which would mean Lucas out the door, but looking at it now, Emre appears better suited further up the pitch, and Lucas has a stronger case as competitor to Gerrard's position, so it'll be interesting to see where that leaves Allen

Exactly my thoughts after that game. Allen looking more like the spare wheel in central midfield.

Coutinho/Lallana-------------------Henderson/Can
---
---
Gerrard/Lucas

The only way Allen fits in, on current levels of performance, is if Lallana or Coutinho get shuttled out to the left wing
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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2420 on: July 31, 2014, 02:51:05 am »

Offline brokenboner

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2421 on: July 31, 2014, 02:52:37 am »
Bit disappointed in him so far this preseason. I know the priority is fitness, but I thought he would be putting in that extra mile to try cement a place. At the moment he is just looking like an early cup rounds player and backup if needed.

Offline The Infamous_LFC

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2422 on: July 31, 2014, 02:56:26 am »

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2423 on: July 31, 2014, 03:28:49 am »
Probably reading into it a bit too much, but a contrast between him and Henderson is that around the 30th minute, Allen gave the ball away deep in their half with a lazy touch, and kinda half jogged back.

Late in the second, Henderson, who at that point has played 80+ (with the full 90 the other day), gave the ball away, sprinted back 40 yards and won it off Yaya (with Lucas and Sakho).
I noticed that too actually. Allen's lazy pass to the right was picked off so easily and then City broke so quickly. To be fair to him regarding the chasing back though he probably hasn't reached optimum fitness levels too (as with Gerrard for that matter). Hendo is an absolute stallion in his workrate though, so determined.

In general it helped Hendo's case in the 2nd half to have Sakho stepping forward to intervene while having Lucas snapping at heels too. I thought City ran through us a bit too easily until them (and Can) coming on.

Gotta say I agree that Allen's position in the team looks under threat, but that's more to do with how much quality we have in the squad now rather than him being poor, even though admitedly today's game was pretty shit from him.

Offline theMilkman

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2424 on: July 31, 2014, 04:42:29 am »
I noticed that too actually. Allen's lazy pass to the right was picked off so easily and then City broke so quickly. To be fair to him regarding the chasing back though he probably hasn't reached optimum fitness levels too (as with Gerrard for that matter). Hendo is an absolute stallion in his workrate though, so determined.

In general it helped Hendo's case in the 2nd half to have Sakho stepping forward to intervene while having Lucas snapping at heels too. I thought City ran through us a bit too easily until them (and Can) coming on.

Gotta say I agree that Allen's position in the team looks under threat, but that's more to do with how much quality we have in the squad now rather than him being poor, even though admitedly today's game was pretty shit from him.

have to say i disagree with the last bit, as i think he's been poor and at best below average for a seasoned Premier League player, not just today but in the other games so far as well. and it really shouldn't be due to fitness because he's been there since  the start of pre-season and IIRC has featured in every one of our games so far. he was off the pace and sloppy today, misplacing 5 and 10 yard balls and was easily the worst midfielder in the game.

And for the record i don't think he's shit. He just really needs to play a lot better than he is right now if he's to have any chance of getting into the team. But i guess with added competition there's bound to be casualties somewhere in the team.
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Offline SquirrelandGman

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2425 on: July 31, 2014, 09:34:37 am »
Says hes gonna step up this season and we shall see. As some has state..he really does look like a third wheel in  midfield. Like hes brain is a couple steps backwards from everyone else on the pitch. Problem here is he doesnt have the physicality to make up for whatever football intelligence he has.

With Can and Lucas looking very good this pre-season..we'll know for sure when the season starts if he is rodgers favourite pet.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2426 on: July 31, 2014, 09:50:13 am »
Judging by one pre-season friendly it sounds like he's the Borini of midfield. Good to know that we've already got our scapegoats selected already! :)

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2427 on: July 31, 2014, 09:54:55 am »
Says hes gonna step up this season and we shall see. As some has state..he really does look like a third wheel in  midfield. Like hes brain is a couple steps backwards from everyone else on the pitch. Problem here is he doesnt have the physicality to make up for whatever football intelligence he has.

With Can and Lucas looking very good this pre-season..we'll know for sure when the season starts if he is rodgers favourite pet.
What utter bollocks, are we really going down this road again.

It's pretty insulting of the manager is that.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:01:13 am by Funky_Gibbons »
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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2428 on: July 31, 2014, 10:12:08 am »
With Can and Lucas looking very good this pre-season..we'll know for sure when the season starts if he is rodgers favourite pet.
What a moronic statement, he'll be in the team on merit.
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2429 on: July 31, 2014, 10:34:29 am »
I think in that diamond we'd be better off with Can, powerful runner alongside Hendo. I'd prefer Allen to be central alongside a Gerrard or Lucas rather than that inside left position he was taking up yesterday. He had no options and he doesn't maraude past players like Henderson. I'd even play him as the deepest lying midfielder.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2430 on: July 31, 2014, 11:07:06 am »
Exactly my thoughts after that game. Allen looking more like the spare wheel in central midfield.

Coutinho/Lallana-------------------Henderson/Can
---
---
Gerrard/Lucas

The only way Allen fits in, on current levels of performance, is if Lallana or Coutinho get shuttled out to the left wing

Lallana isn't going to be shuttled out to the left wing any time soon. He isn't going to be playing midfield or anywhere else any time soon either.
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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2431 on: July 31, 2014, 11:16:08 am »
Exactly my thoughts after that game. Allen looking more like the spare wheel in central midfield.

Coutinho/Lallana-------------------Henderson/Can
---
---
Gerrard/Lucas

The only way Allen fits in, on current levels of performance, is if Lallana or Coutinho get shuttled out to the left wing

I agree with this.
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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2432 on: July 31, 2014, 11:20:25 am »
What a moronic statement, he'll be in the team on merit.
We have genuine competition now.  It's exciting.  The players will know they have to take their opportunities too.  Lallana's injury is unfortunate but it's also an opportunity for Coutinho/Can/Allen. 

There is no more playing your way into a season.  Especially for the likes of Allen.  He is older and has more experience than most of the other lads in midfield.  It's time to step up.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2433 on: July 31, 2014, 11:21:48 am »
I've never been convinced, and now I'm less convinced than ever. I'd cash in.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2434 on: July 31, 2014, 11:30:32 am »
I've never been convinced, and now I'm less convinced than ever. I'd cash in.

We won't sell Joe Allen.

Lucas will go before Allen does.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2435 on: July 31, 2014, 11:35:30 am »
I've never been convinced, and now I'm less convinced than ever. I'd cash in.

I'm certainly not as big on Allen as many seem to be, but there's no way we should be selling a player who can adequately play 3 different variations of the CM role.

Allen is worth his place in the squad, absolutely.

A place in the XI? Perhaps not.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2436 on: July 31, 2014, 11:51:09 am »
I've never been convinced, and now I'm less convinced than ever. I'd cash in.
Is there even a buyer at the table?  Allen is not really worth selling at a discount.  This is not a Borini situation where there is a lot of money on offer.  Allen has value to the squad if not currently as a starter.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2437 on: July 31, 2014, 10:02:20 pm »
I'm certainly not as big on Allen as many seem to be, but there's no way we should be selling a player who can adequately play 3 different variations of the CM role.

Allen is worth his place in the squad, absolutely.

A place in the XI? Perhaps not.
Exactly how I see it.

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2438 on: July 31, 2014, 10:20:28 pm »
Christ it's like the games at the end of last season didn't happen - it's pre season you quilts
Joes demonstrated his quality plenty in games that.... You know.... actually count

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Re: Joe Allen
« Reply #2439 on: July 31, 2014, 10:42:38 pm »
It's a squad game and right now Allen is, in all likelihood, a squad player, and a very good one at that. I wouldn't get my overexcited about any of our players in pre-season - remember when Kolo Toure looked to be our signing of the summer?
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