Author Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership  (Read 346655 times)

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1600 on: March 2, 2012, 03:17:31 am »
BOOM! *EEK* BOFF!


I have stumbled upon a discussion about Carragher.


I'd start Coates.

Offline mysterio_86

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1601 on: March 2, 2012, 05:47:38 am »
Sebastion Coates, Suso, Sterling, Shelvey, Samed Yesil, SinclairSama, Smichael Ngoo, Sryan McLaughlin, Sjordan Ibe, - The S Law

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1602 on: March 2, 2012, 08:04:37 am »
let's be honest here, carra is going to be picked. whether you think that's right or wrong that is what is going to happen so let's hope he (carra) does a good job. if we lose however and the gap increases to 10 points then CL is done and I would then play coates for every league agger is unavailable for because european football is already secured.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1603 on: March 2, 2012, 08:07:21 am »
Coates has played against the likes of balotelli, agueros and alexis sanchez's of this world for his national team and has been excellent. He has a hell of lot more experience playing against top forwards than people seem to think. Carra has been poor this year and the likes of asamoah gyan caused him problems in the first game of the season, the likes of van persie, gervinho are better than gyan.

When has Coates played against Balotelli?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1604 on: March 2, 2012, 08:22:23 am »
When has Coates played against Balotelli?
Italy v Uruguay international last autumn?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1605 on: March 2, 2012, 08:25:35 am »
See how Skrtel is without Agger.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1606 on: March 2, 2012, 08:44:04 am »
Yeah, I don't mind Carra 'raging against the dying light'. No footballer can be expected to draw the curtains on their own career. The desire to keep on playing for ever is a natural one.
and this
Fair enough, I don't see that baggage point now, I think what went on behind the scenes in the last days of Rafa and Hodgson's time would not be tolerated under Kenny and everybody at the club got a clean slate when he arrived in my eyes.

any of the supposed 'indiscretions' that carra has got away with over the last few years have been sanctioned/allowed by by the management/administration of the time. No matter whether we disagree with what he did, you can't expect a bolshy leader like carra to not 'try it on'. It is up to his superiors to reign him in if it is inappropriate.

With regards to the game on the weekend, my original thoughts were marginally towards Coates but there are obvious pros/cons to either choice. As usual the 'right' decision will be determined by the result and nothing else


See how Skrtel is without Agger.

yes, i would say that any change decision  on personnel should be guided towards supporting Skrtl's natural game, as he is the in-form player.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2012, 08:45:57 am by drpepe »

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1607 on: March 2, 2012, 09:24:46 am »
In premier league terms he is a total novice. For me, this isn't the game to be giving him a starting place when we have Carragher.

The South American footballing style is nothing like the English.

That's right. The ball is rectangular over there and you can only back-heel it. All games are played on a 1 in 3 gradient by teams consisting of 46 players each. And then of course there's the circular pitch.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1608 on: March 2, 2012, 09:41:42 am »
I like the way we are handling Coates this season.

I think this approach will benefit both us and the player.

I'm not sure whether he should play tomorrow.  I know for almost certain he won't start.

But I think what people need to understand is that the chances of a 21 year old centreback dominating the Premier League's top goalscorer are limited.  He may well learn from the experience which will be good, but this game is vital.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1609 on: March 2, 2012, 09:52:30 am »
let's be honest here, carra is going to be picked. whether you think that's right or wrong that is what is going to happen so let's hope he (carra) does a good job. if we lose however and the gap increases to 10 points then CL is done and I would then play coates for every league agger is unavailable for because european football is already secured.

Fully agree with that

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1610 on: March 2, 2012, 10:05:36 am »
let's be honest here, carra is going to be picked. whether you think that's right or wrong that is what is going to happen so let's hope he (carra) does a good job. if we lose however and the gap increases to 10 points then CL is done and I would then play coates for every league agger is unavailable for because european football is already secured.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Carragher is likely to start tomorrow. It's whether he should that's the question.
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Offline Pople

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1611 on: March 2, 2012, 10:07:01 am »
I appreciate all that Carra has done for us over the years, but I do not want him in this week. Skrtel's come on leaps and bounds this year, but based on history, he shits himself when he has to play next to Carra.

Coates might be inexperienced in the Prem', but Arsenal aren't exactly the typical English side who will beat up a young, foreign centre half. Coates has played against the Messi's etc. Van Persie's tearing everyone apart, but Coates has dealt with that before.

Even if the inexperience in English football does shine through, the chance of him making a critical error is less likely than Carra being left behind by their pace. Beyond that, if Coates fucks up, he's young enough and intelligent enough to learn from it, especially with someone like Steve Clarke helping him. Carra's both too old and too stubborn to learn from it now.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1612 on: March 2, 2012, 10:48:12 am »
In premier league terms he is a total novice. For me, this isn't the game to be giving him a starting place when we have Carragher.

The South American footballing style is nothing like the English.

What style do Arsenal play?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1613 on: March 2, 2012, 10:56:18 am »
But I think what people need to understand is that the chances of a 21 year old centreback dominating the Premier League's top goalscorer are limited.  He may well learn from the experience which will be good, but this game is vital.

Is Carra any more likely to dominate RVP though? Not judging by his form this season.

Offline Uruguayan36

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1614 on: March 2, 2012, 11:08:31 am »
During the Copa America Coates played few games with Uruguay and always showed his class.

For example...During the game against Chile he was magnificent against Alexis Sanchez ,now in Barcelona.

This was the line up of Uruguay:

 Muslera;
 Pereira, Lugano, Coates, Caceres;
 Perez, Arevalo, Alvaro Pereira;
 Cavani, Forlan, Suarez.

Also he played against Peru and Paraguay with great success.

He was also the best young player of the Copa America...

Why some people distrust him prefering an old player with limited skills like Carra is something i can not comprehend.

If Tabarez trusted him in the Copa America ...and he shined...Why Dalglish should not trust him against Arsenal?
« Last Edit: March 2, 2012, 11:13:54 am by Uruguayan36 »

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1615 on: March 2, 2012, 12:29:13 pm »
I don't think anyone is disputing that Carragher is likely to start tomorrow. It's whether he should that's the question.

I think we've already made our bed there by not giving Coates more of a run-out against weaker opposition when we've had the chance this season, it would be a big ask for the lad to throw him into this one.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1616 on: March 2, 2012, 12:31:06 pm »
I think we've already made our bed there by not giving Coates more of a run-out against weaker opposition when we've had the chance this season, it would be a big ask for the lad to throw him into this one.

maybe, but fielding strong teams in early rounds secured our first cup for 6 years.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1617 on: March 2, 2012, 12:34:30 pm »
maybe, but fielding strong teams in early rounds secured our first cup for 6 years.

To be fair Coates played in some of those. He played v Chelsea and Stoke anyway.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1618 on: March 2, 2012, 12:35:22 pm »
maybe, but fielding strong teams in early rounds secured our first cup for 6 years.

Agreed but at the same time would it have been a massive risk to give Coates some of the time that Carra ended getting in a few of those games?

My concern here is that we need to know what we have from Coates sooner rather than later, if we have doubts that he's good enough then we have an issue to address ahead of next season, I'd be very very uncomfortable going into next season with Carra with another year on the clock, as the clear 3rd CB with someone as injury prone as Agger has been ahead of him.

I'd like us to have blooded Coates more than we have, unless we really do have serious concerns about his ability to contribute.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1619 on: March 2, 2012, 12:37:52 pm »
Coates would have been blooded for LFC more if we had won half of our fucking home games that we've drawn. We'd be sitting pretty and in a position to test.

I'd deffo stick Coates in over the next few weeks. I wouldn't throw him in at the deep end against Arsenal though.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1620 on: March 2, 2012, 12:41:47 pm »
People seem to think that Coates is some inexperienced, weak minded player. He's a 2 time league winning player with Nacional, he won the Copa America with Uruguay, picking up best young player in the process. He has nearly 70 professional games and he has already shown that he has a great mentality by overcoming an absolute stinker against Stoke, into a great performance in the second half which, ironically enough, coincided with Carragher leaving the pitch.


Forget history, I may not have seen enough of Coates to claim that he's guaranteed to step up to the plate against Arsenal. But I've seen enough to think he warrants a fair shot at it, and I've seen enough of Carragher that I don't think he should be anywhere near the starting line-up. He slows down play, is terrible on the ball for a professional footballer, drags us deep onto the pitch and doesn't offer up an attacking threat in set pieces. And even if Coates makes mistakes, and I'm sure he will, worst case scenario it's a learning curve. Like we know he won't let a loose ball bounce like he did with Walters. If Carra does it, he won't take anything away from it. If they both start and make 3 mistakes leading to goals, at least 2-3 years down the line we can look back at that with Coates. Carra has already peaked and playing him is only delaying the inevitable

Absolutely spot on Coates has far more experience than Phil Jones or Chris Smalling had when they arrived at Old Trafford yet Ferguson didn't think twice about playing Jones or Smalling. Carragher hasn't been good enough for three years now Coates is quicker, better in the air has better distribution and is made of the right stuff you only had to see him tell Carra during the Spurs away game to get further up the pitch to know that Coates wouldn't be phased by anything.

If we signed Eden Hazard in the summer would anyone seriously say that we should keep playing Downing because he has much more experience and knows the League better. Carragher's day has well and truly gone and if we want to progress then we need to embrace the future players like Coates can be part of that future but only if we stop mollycoddling him and let him get out there and show his ability. 
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1621 on: March 2, 2012, 12:41:57 pm »
I think we've already made our bed there by not giving Coates more of a run-out against weaker opposition when we've had the chance this season, it would be a big ask for the lad to throw him into this one.

Why would it be such a big ask? Yes, he might find it tough, as a 21 year old up against a pretty good attack but is the alternative - Carragher - a better option for tomorrow, which is what it comes down to. IMO it isn't necessarily so, for the numerous reasons outlined already in this thread. Also, Coates has already showed himself to be a pretty good player, playing in and winning the Copa America and getting Young Player of the Tournament. If we want him to be more experienced, then he needs to play games. It'll be beneficial for us longer term, as well as tomorrow IMO.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1622 on: March 2, 2012, 12:53:54 pm »
Coates would have been blooded for LFC more if we had won half of our fucking home games that we've drawn. We'd be sitting pretty and in a position to test.

I'd deffo stick Coates in over the next few weeks. I wouldn't throw him in at the deep end against Arsenal though.

That's another thing I didn't understand at the time and still puzzles me to this day. 3-0 up against a completely deflated Wolves team, Agger has some minor problems and with 8 minutes to go, 3 goal lead we bring on Carragher, with Coates on the bench. I don't get why we didn't use Coates. Was the perfect to give him the chance to pick up a few minutes and get familiarised with his team mates. It's odd sentimental stuff like that which confuses me. That Wolves team was never going to score one goal, let alone 3 so why not use the youngster instead of just boosting Carragher's appearance count.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1623 on: March 2, 2012, 01:03:09 pm »
I think we've already made our bed there by not giving Coates more of a run-out against weaker opposition when we've had the chance this season, it would be a big ask for the lad to throw him into this one.

United when they played Arsenal at home had Jones, Smalling and Evans in the back four Cleverley in midfield and Wellbeck upfront and were rewarded with an 8-2 win. Against that scenario we are terrified of playing a Copa America winner in a back five with the likes of Reina, Enrique, Skrtel and Johnson or Kelly.

That for me highlights why United have been building teams and winning titles for twenty years and why we have been looking backwards at our titles for twenty years.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1624 on: March 2, 2012, 01:06:40 pm »
United when they played Arsenal at home had Jones, Smalling and Evans in the back four Cleverley in midfield and Wellbeck upfront and were rewarded with an 8-2 win. Against that scenario we are terrified of playing a Copa America winner in a back five with the likes of Reina, Enrique, Skrtel and Johnson or Kelly.

That for me highlights why United have been building teams and winning titles for twenty years and why we have been looking backwards at our titles for twenty years.

True. As much as I dislike Ferguson, he's not afraid to give younger players a chance and get shot of the older ones when needs be. We should be doing that instead of looking to Carragher or even Gerrard to a certain extent.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1625 on: March 2, 2012, 01:09:57 pm »
United when they played Arsenal at home had Jones, Smalling and Evans in the back four Cleverley in midfield and Wellbeck upfront and were rewarded with an 8-2 win. Against that scenario we are terrified of playing a Copa America winner in a back five with the likes of Reina, Enrique, Skrtel and Johnson or Kelly.

That for me highlights why United have been building teams and winning titles for twenty years and why we have been looking backwards at our titles for twenty years.

I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1626 on: March 2, 2012, 01:25:50 pm »
I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 

Aye but he's learnt from that mistake it seems...Smalling and Jones are now playing in the ingurland side
whilst we're still afraid to play our uruguayan centre half who starts for a team that went far in the world cup and are the best side in south america...
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1627 on: March 2, 2012, 01:26:10 pm »
That's another thing I didn't understand at the time and still puzzles me to this day. 3-0 up against a completely deflated Wolves team, Agger has some minor problems and with 8 minutes to go, 3 goal lead we bring on Carragher, with Coates on the bench. I don't get why we didn't use Coates. Was the perfect to give him the chance to pick up a few minutes and get familiarised with his team mates. It's odd sentimental stuff like that which confuses me. That Wolves team was never going to score one goal, let alone 3 so why not use the youngster instead of just boosting Carragher's appearance count.

That type of thought is perfectly clear and rational. I agree 100%.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1628 on: March 2, 2012, 01:39:14 pm »
yes, i would say that any change decision  on personnel should be guided towards supporting Skrtl's natural game, as he is the in-form player.

This for me is the most important thing.

He is indeed the in form defender.  He's got to play on the right hand side of the defence as usual, and not be shoe horned into the team to accomodate whoever replaces Agger.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1629 on: March 2, 2012, 01:41:42 pm »
True. As much as I dislike Ferguson, he's not afraid to give younger players a chance and get shot of the older ones when needs be. We should be doing that instead of looking to Carragher or even Gerrard to a certain extent.
Agree on the first point, as for the second unless he falls out with them he rarely offloads.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1630 on: March 2, 2012, 01:44:54 pm »
Agree on the first point, as for the second unless he falls out with them he rarely offloads.

Has he kept on many players too long? Giggs and Scholes may get laughed at for being pensioners but Scholes IMO is playing better than he has done in the last couple of years and Giggs is still performing well. The defence is the biggest example, Pique aside, with the likes of Smalling and Jones playing frequently. He did the same with Evans IIRC when his first choices were out.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1631 on: March 2, 2012, 02:07:49 pm »
I don't think we're "terrified" of playing Coates, but you're largely correct about Ferguson.

Not that Ferguson's record is unblemished when it comes to blooding young centre backs. Smalling, May and Jones are now being given the benefit of the doubt that was denied the best of them all - Pique. Ferguson really fucked up over Pique. A single, high-profile, mistake against Bolton Wanderers resulted in Pique being deprived a second chance and, eventually, being given a transfer to a small European team who had no other choice but to play a raw young centre half. 

I think with Pique they had an embarrassment of riches Ferdinand and Vidic were a top drawer pairing and then they had Evans and Shawcross who were top quality young Centre backs who were exactly the same age as Pique. Pique was brought in as a Defensive midfield player who grew into the stature of a centre back.

Luckily for the rest of the League it was during that period of adjustment that the Bolton game came about. We have no embarrassment of riches and unless Kelly is switched inside then Coates has pretty much a free run as a young centre back at the Club. We need to trust in his ability and his character and not make the mistake of stalling his career.

He is way beyond the realms of reserve team football or being loaned out and needs to start getting game time otherwise we could end up damaging his development.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1632 on: March 2, 2012, 02:20:19 pm »
I think with Pique they had an embarrassment of riches Ferdinand and Vidic were a top drawer pairing and then they had Evans and Shawcross who were top quality young Centre backs who were exactly the same age as Pique. Pique was brought in as a Defensive midfield player who grew into the stature of a centre back.

Luckily for the rest of the League it was during that period of adjustment that the Bolton game came about. We have no embarrassment of riches and unless Kelly is switched inside then Coates has pretty much a free run as a young centre back at the Club. We need to trust in his ability and his character and not make the mistake of stalling his career.

He is way beyond the realms of reserve team football or being loaned out and needs to start getting game time otherwise we could end up damaging his development.


Problem is for Coates, we cannot drop Agger or Skrtel. They are both 27 i think, so what happens if they both play fantastic for the next 3 season say until they are 30?
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Offline amoh

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1633 on: March 2, 2012, 02:27:28 pm »
It's got to ba Coates all day long.

Do we want to see the defensive line drop five to ten yards, see Skrtel move over to a side of the pitch he isn't truly comfortable on, and leave Johnson mindful of attacking a pretty suspect Arsenal left hand side for fear of leaving his centre back exposed?

Carragher was a great player - and there are still games where he can come in and do a job occassionally.  But, tomorrow isn't one of them.


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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1634 on: March 2, 2012, 02:37:49 pm »

Problem is for Coates, we cannot drop Agger or Skrtel. They are both 27 i think, so what happens if they both play fantastic for the next 3 season say until they are 30?

Why are Agger and Skrtel a problem for Coates? Every top club wants at least 3 viable first choice CBs, for competition if nothing else. The problem is whether he or Carragher is being considered the other one. The problem being that Carragher plainly isn't the future.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1635 on: March 2, 2012, 03:04:21 pm »
I think with Pique they had an embarrassment of riches Ferdinand and Vidic were a top drawer pairing and then they had Evans and Shawcross who were top quality young Centre backs who were exactly the same age as Pique. Pique was brought in as a Defensive midfield player who grew into the stature of a centre back.

Luckily for the rest of the League it was during that period of adjustment that the Bolton game came about. We have no embarrassment of riches and unless Kelly is switched inside then Coates has pretty much a free run as a young centre back at the Club. We need to trust in his ability and his character and not make the mistake of stalling his career.

He is way beyond the realms of reserve team football or being loaned out and needs to start getting game time otherwise we could end up damaging his development.

I'm not denying what you say here. But let's not get cacrried away by the idea that Ferguson is infallible. He made a stupid choice when he ditched Pique. He panicked. And he's already paid for it in two European Cup finals, thank god.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1636 on: March 2, 2012, 03:05:51 pm »
Has he kept on many players too long? Giggs and Scholes may get laughed at for being pensioners but Scholes IMO is playing better than he has done in the last couple of years and Giggs is still performing well. The defence is the biggest example, Pique aside, with the likes of Smalling and Jones playing frequently. He did the same with Evans IIRC when his first choices were out.
I don't believe he does keep them too long, they're still good players, not at the heights they were but can still do (more than) a job. That's what I was getting at. He keeps them around until they retire (Neville, Van deSar, Scholes already!). He doesn't offload when they're on the downward slope, this is more what Wenger used to do. Now they leave Arsenal in their prime.
« Last Edit: March 2, 2012, 03:11:30 pm by stevedo »

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1637 on: March 2, 2012, 03:10:08 pm »
I don't believe he does keep them too long, they're still good players, not at the heights they were but can still do (more than) a job. That's what I was getting at. He keeps them around until they retire (Neville, Van deSar, Scholes already!)

Oh ok, I misunderstood. What we should be doing is similar, if they're good enough. I don't think Carragher falls into that category.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1638 on: March 2, 2012, 03:15:01 pm »
I'm not denying what you say here. But let's not get cacrried away by the idea that Ferguson is infallible. He made a stupid choice when he ditched Pique. He panicked. And he's already paid for it in two European Cup finals, thank god.
My understanding of the situation is Ferguson wanted to keep him, but Queiroz persuaded him that he was surplus to requirements and that Evans was the better player.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1639 on: March 2, 2012, 03:17:10 pm »
My understanding of the situation is Ferguson wanted to keep him, but Queiroz persuaded him that he was surplus to requirements and that Evans was the better player.

Fly on the wall in the ole drunks office eh?

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