Author Topic: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins  (Read 8854 times)

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Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« on: December 1, 2005, 03:51:10 pm »
So how much difference does a manager really make? Surely it's the players who are the most important thing, right?

I don't know why, but I'm getting this sense that Rafa could send out the Hartlepool reserves in red shirts and have the team playing his style of football, and succeeding.

What I find most fascinating is just how similar to Rafa's Valencia this Liverpool team are becoming. Not identical in terms of individuals, but a great resemblance in the way results are achieved. Such is the defensive organisation that even if the side isn't playing at its best, results can be gained without ever looking even remotely in trouble.

How can you get four defenders to behave so similarly to their Spanish counterparts? What kind of drills must a manager do to get the kind of unity and understanding the backline is currently exhibiting? And why can't all managers do the same thing?

Liverpool's defence is not the strongest in terms of personnel. After all, there's not a lot of pace there, and John Arne Riise has hardly been noted for his defensive skills. But even when Warnock came in, the clean sheets continued.

Tactics are one thing; getting the players to adhere to them, and to be capable of carrying out the instructions, is another. This is a totally different team to Valencia  obviously, there being not one single player from that side is in this (after the failed experiment with Pellegrino) and yet the same characteristics are starting to become evident.

The main one being that the team is bloody hard to beat.

Yet again at the Stadium of Light Liverpool controlled the match and created by far the most chances. Okay, so that's not saying a lot, given the opposition. But this was also a potential banana skin. From not being able to win an away game, the Reds have now won three in a row. Games were won with Alonso out injured, and he doesn't seem missed; then he comes back and provides two of the best assists you'll see all season.

Can the manager really influence everything to such an extent? And is the ability to do so what marks him out as a 'great'? Why do only a very small percentage of managers win most of the honours in football? And an even smaller percentage achieve great things at more than one club or in more than one country? Neither Valencia nor Liverpool were favourites to win the prizes now listed on Rafa's CV.

Rafa has partially rebuilt the side he inherited, but it is still not a complete refit. There are players filling in where, ideally, they wouldn't have to.

There are others, like Djibril Cisse, who appear very talented and have plenty to offer, but are equally unable to fully integrate themselves into the side. The 'Benitez ethos' doesn't allow individuals to rock the boat, in whatever way, big or small, and it's hard to see a long-term future for the French striker. His fate isn't sealed, but it's on the cards.

While Cisse might feel hard done by, Rafa only cares about the team. By leaving Cisse out, the message to others is clear, and you get an increased sense of focus.     

Cisse is probably the club's most sellable asset, excluding the players you'd never want to sell in a million years. French clubs would still pay a hefty fee for Cisse, and I can't help but think Rafa is edging ever closer to cashing in, and reinvesting, just as he did with Milan Baros. I'm a big fan of Cisse's, but if he's not going to fit in, in terms of style of play or character, it's better that we trust this manager to find players who do.

I feel sorry for the no.9, especially as his first few months at the club included the sacking of the manager who pursued him for three years and a terrible broken leg, and since then he's been played on the right quite frequently. But it is not the manager's job to concentrate on one player. He has to perfect the blend, not care only about one ingredient.

Whereas Crouch has made himself central to Rafa's plans without scoring, Cisse has scored a few goals without doing enough to cement a place in the team. It's a strange situation, but results suggest the manager is right. Cisse excites more than Crouch, but Crouch gels things together.

While most Fantasy Football managers would prefer Cisse or Milan Baros, the team are showing better form, week-in week-out, with Peter Crouch. In fact, the manager's insistence on playing Crouch, despite the lack of goals, shows how important his own system is.

If players want to get into the team on merit, they have to either perfectly complement the system, as does Crouch, or to be so outstanding that the system is altered to suit them. If Cisse was scoring a hat-trick every week he'd stay in the team. If the system was less effective with Cisse replacing Crouch, but Cisse scored enough goals to win games to compensate, it would be a different scenario. But Cisse only has three league goals, one of those a penalty, another a mishit cross.

CissŽes problem is that he seems one of those players who needs to be 100% guaranteed his place in the side to feel relaxed and confident enough to shine. It has to be all about him in order for him to feel important, and potent. He's a superb finisher, when feeling confident, but he can't quite find that feeling at Liverpool.

At Auxerre he was the first name on the teamsheet, and I doubt he was ever subbed off. Benitez rotates players and makes substitutions early in matches, and has many different approaches to games. Cisse appears to take it too personally. Fernando Morientes went off for Kewell after only 60 minutes last night. He was taken off against Anderlecht on 51 minutes, the same as Cisse at the weekend.

What Cisse offers, that only the raw Sinama-Pongolle can replicate, is electric pace. Whatever happens in January, I'm desperate to see quick strikers on the books somewhere, as they provide a different dimension. But I'm sure Rafa doesn't need to be told that.

The more I see Rafa at work, and the more I read about him, the more I realise how much there is to try and understand. He simply does not work along rigid lines of picking the best XI and saying "go out and play your natural game". His approach is so detailed, so involved, that we only get a glimpse of things.

So what are the limits for Liverpool this season?

Teams have come good in the second half of the season before. When I heard Rafa had won as many of his first 50 Premiership games as had Arsene Wenger, I was slightly shocked, given Wenger won the title in his second season, when his first season saw him arrive only in the autumn. Rafa's difficult first season only involved 17 wins out of 38 games.

Then I remembered that Arsenal were in a pretty poor position come the start of 1998, and only an incredible run took them to the title. Most seasons it's in the New Year that the big teams click into gear.

Nothing can be totally discounted, as Istanbul also proved. The kind of run the Reds went on in the Champions League, against three of the best sides in the world, showed what is possible, although the underdog card was always easily played in that situation to diffuse pressure.

I still think the 70-point marker is what we should be aiming at, although as the season progresses that could change; get there, and then reassess, as hopefully there'll still be games to follow. But given Chelsea got 95 points to win the league last season, even 80 points might not get us close. But 80 points would be a great return.

Meanwhile, qualification for the knock-out stages of the Champions League has not only added money for transfers but also prestige. The higher the Reds are in the table, the more easily newcomers can be attracted. Success in Japan will only help that. So in a way it's important that the Reds hit their stride now, rather than after Christmas.

I've always felt that the season will disappoint in Europe, as the expectation increases, and as defending the title becomes a burden. The Reds are still seen as outsiders, despite comfortable passage out of the group, so not a lot has changed since last season. But from a team that was inconsistent in either qualifying or progressing under Houllier, the second successive knock-out phase has to be taken as another sign of consistency.

However is it all held together by a delicate balance? Injuries to a couple of key players and suddenly the balance could be skewed. Unlike Chelsea, there is strength in depth only in certain areas of Liverpool's squad.
 
It'll be interesting to see how different the team looks in 18 months, especially if the boss has a lot of money to spend. Whatever happens this season, it'll be hard to believe that evidence of progress won't be all around us.

© Paul Tomkins 2005

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Offline Ole Gunnar

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #1 on: December 1, 2005, 04:17:27 pm »
Always a pleasure to read your  stuff!
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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #2 on: December 1, 2005, 05:45:33 pm »
As always, a great read.

One of the things I like about Rafa is that he appears to have a ruthless streak. No wavering from his idea about the way the team should play, doesn't tolerate players who don't fit his ideas regardless of how much they cost, where they came from or their "status" (Nunez and Pellegrino didn't last long even though Rafa signed them). This approach reminds me of the way Paisley used to run the club - there should be no sentiment.

The striker situation does concern me a bit though - I think we do need a goal poacher and, so far, none of the three seem to fit that mould.


Offline Red Rascal

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #3 on: December 1, 2005, 11:37:43 pm »
Yes, I like Cisse too, but he is a young lad and had never been anywhere else except Auxerre. Not everyone would fancy being in Rafa's team, although Cisse seems to be trying. Even a person of Cisse's quality, Rafa can do without. But one quality that strikes me most of the team is "discipline". More like the "strength in the mind" rather than just being obedient and toeing the line. I think that is what Rafa meant when he said "mentality". I admire that extra something that Rafa is introducing. I think Rafa is waiting for the team when they become more ruthless and "kill off the opponent" earlier in the game. It comes with a sense of precision and a way of operating to weaken the opposition quickly, and creating more ways to rain blows on the opponent. In boxing, it is one to one, but Rafa wants the team to act as one. And that is why he cannot afford "individuals" that stray from the synchronization of team mechanism that is put in place. What he is trying to apply is not easy as its a team of eleven people, not just one, but if he is successful, Liverpool will be deadly!
"Tactically, I did my job." (Rafa Benitez)

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #4 on: December 2, 2005, 12:24:15 am »
Yup to all points.

Get a feeling that the players are all chess pieces to Rafa, he can make use of every piece, some more than others, and can dispense with any piece, if its fits with his game plan.

We are very lucky to have him.

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #5 on: December 2, 2005, 02:48:26 am »
Can't believe it when the press and some fickle fans were writing us off after the Palace defeat. Like the conductor in an orchestra, Rafa is currently our most prized asset in LFC. He has such a good understanding of the game, of the team, that every move he makes on the football chessboard is so carefully thought of. He doesn't compromise on details and his execution this season is almost flawless.

Some felt that his winning the CL so early in his Liverpool reign may be detrimental to his own future as he has set such a high standard and expectation. It may still prove to be true but I'd look at it from another angle. After winning CL last season wearing the underdogs tag, we now commands the respect and trust of the players. The team knows they can scale greater heights if they adhered to his method, his way. The players know they can put 100% faith in him. Once they do that and commit themselves wholeheartedly, as they have been doing in the last 6 or so games, positive results will follow.

After the Sunderland game, Mick McCarthy not only spoke about the quality his team had to play against but also acknowledged how hard the Liverpool team worked. This is the kind of team Rafa wants to build. He demands that every player give their 100% regardless of how talented he is or how much he earns, etc. I can see that his message is finally getting through to players such as Kewell. I'm a big fan of his and I can see now he has a more positive attitude and works hard when he comes on. Hopefully, he can remain healthy as we are seeing the dividends from him now.

What Cisse offers, that only the raw Sinama-Pongolle can replicate, is electric pace. Whatever happens in January, I'm desperate to see quick strikers on the books somewhere, as they provide a different dimension. But I'm sure Rafa doesn't need to be told that.
News from Sky Sports that says Real Betis is keen on Sinama. I'd hate to see him go. We haven't really realised his full potential yet.

Offline Buster 'Hook Hand' Bluth

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #6 on: December 2, 2005, 11:54:17 am »
In boxing, it is one to one, but Rafa wants the team to act as one. And that is why he cannot afford "individuals" that stray from the synchronization of team mechanism that is put in place. What he is trying to apply is not easy as its a team of eleven people, not just one, but if he is successful, Liverpool will be deadly!


A nice way of putting it...
Who is this man, where is he from?
Defenders ask "Where has he gone?"
He fools them all, there is no doubt
This is the man this song's about,
And like the Kop, you'll hear me shout
"Give it to Heighway."

Offline scottishRED

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #7 on: December 2, 2005, 01:06:49 pm »
Looking to the future, it's likely that Rafa's midfield will be complete this January with the acquisitions of Gonzalez and Simao. That will give us a full complement of players right across the midfield.

The defence will also be pretty much complete if we manage to sign a younger centre-back to ease in as a replacement for Hyypia. Rafa may at some point go for a left back, but it's hardly a matter of urgency with Riise / Warnock / Traore able to do very competent jobs there.

The goalkeeping situation appears sorted with Reina and Carson in reserve.

The only position where I can see Rafa desperately wanting to make a further change is in attack - as you say, by replacing Cisse with someone who fits into the new style of the team better. It's difficult to know who Rafa might try to sign. It probably depends on how much we can get for Cisse and whether our target's club is willing to sell for a reasonable price. I think we can see in Crouch and Morientes what types of striker Rafa is keen on though - players who link well with the rest of the team, who can hold up the ball and bring others into play, allowing the midfielders to get forwards and support. This is not Cisse's strength; he's more of a player you would have to build your team around, exploiting his place with lots of through balls (a bit like Michael Owen, though Owen's link play is admittedly better than Djibril's).

Kuyt is clearly a player Rafa admires, but I expect he may be a bit out of our price range - unless someone comes in with a truly incredible offer for Cisse.

Like everyone else though, I'd love to see someone with a bit of pace come in. And someone who can poach goals better than Crouch / Morientes, as I think this is an important quality to have in the squad as an option.

If I were Rafa, I'd try to replace Cisse with Robbie Keane - who'd likely be available from Spurs for about £7 million (going by rumours last summer). He's a player who has scored goals at all levels, he's reasonably quick, and from what I've seen of him, he would have the ability to play the style that Rafa likes, with the strikers linking up with the midfield and bringing others into play. The added advantage is his Premiership experience; he wouldn't need long to settle in.
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Offline Walshy nMe®

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #8 on: December 2, 2005, 01:41:16 pm »
Looking to the future, it's likely that Rafa's midfield will be complete this January with the acquisitions of Gonzalez and Simao. That will give us a full complement of players right across the midfield.

I don't think Gonzalez will be here until the summer.

Offline scottishRED

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #9 on: December 2, 2005, 03:11:52 pm »
I don't think Gonzalez will be here until the summer.

we are signing him in JANUARY.

he will be at the club from then unless we loan him out.

HOWEVER, he will be unable to play for us until next season, because we cannot get him a work permit. so we'll probably loan him out.

(at least, that's my understanding of what's happening)

The point, in any case, is that Rafa will not be signing any other midfielders after Gonzalez + Simao (or whoever); he'll then have all the players he needs right across the midfield.
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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #10 on: December 2, 2005, 03:18:25 pm »
A great read.  In the Boss we must put our trust he will come good and give him this season then maybe next season the likes of A. Gray/ C. Nicholas etc. etc might actually start mentioning Liverpool's name amoungst the BIG 4 let alone this Big 3 we keep hearing them harp on about.  We will get back to greatness under Rafa of this I'm sure then in the next few seasons we can all look back and see what a great club we are again, back where we belong on top of the pile.

Go on Rafa make us dream!! win us the holy grail that  people keep going on about :champ :champ
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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #11 on: December 2, 2005, 03:47:23 pm »
He is a wiley old fox aint he
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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #12 on: December 2, 2005, 03:48:21 pm »
Good read.

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #13 on: December 2, 2005, 05:50:52 pm »
Bit of a repost

Cisse is out of here :o.

If Tomkins is saying that as he did with Baros then I have to wonder.

Reread his whole post and wonder why it was a bit like sweet & sour. Mention Cisses name and he appears to cringe while Crouch its all dandy.

 Its seems to be one set of rules & expectations with one striker while another is bye bye even though he is also basically in his first season with us (decent start too as he has otscored his other stikers, combinded, by approx 3:1......not saying much I guess when the 1 is literally one) . And no matter how Tomkins writes it, ie Crouch & Morientes provides oh so more to the team & our great run than one Cisse, I look at the team sheet and wonder is he looking at the same thing I am. Is that Cisse names in nearly every team sheet that has us marching up to 4th? It could not be and if it is then he surely did not help us like Morientes & Crouch have........? PR wheel is a spinning in the mud there Mr. Tomkins as no matter how I look at it I have seen  reasonable team performances from all our strikers this year. There has been a few dour ones too but all in all Cisse has outshone the rest of them when it comes to scoring. If you are judging a strikers performance on just team effort and assists then Cisse has done nearly as well as other striker too...what is it again he has 0 assist likewise with orientes while Crouch has 1 according to some sites but others have him at 0 too.

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #14 on: December 2, 2005, 09:25:59 pm »
Bit of a repost

Cisse is out of here :o.

If Tomkins is saying that as he did with Baros then I have to wonder.

Reread his whole post and wonder why it was a bit like sweet & sour. Mention Cisses name and he appears to cringe while Crouch its all dandy.

 Its seems to be one set of rules & expectations with one striker while another is bye bye even though he is also basically in his first season with us (decent start too as he has otscored his other stikers, combinded, by approx 3:1......not saying much I guess when the 1 is literally one) . And no matter how Tomkins writes it, ie Crouch & Morientes provides oh so more to the team & our great run than one Cisse, I look at the team sheet and wonder is he looking at the same thing I am. Is that Cisse names in nearly every team sheet that has us marching up to 4th? It could not be and if it is then he surely did not help us like Morientes & Crouch have........? PR wheel is a spinning in the mud there Mr. Tomkins as no matter how I look at it I have seen  reasonable team performances from all our strikers this year. There has been a few dour ones too but all in all Cisse has outshone the rest of them when it comes to scoring. If you are judging a strikers performance on just team effort and assists then Cisse has done nearly as well as other striker too...what is it again he has 0 assist likewise with orientes while Crouch has 1 according to some sites but others have him at 0 too.
You can't judge  a player by OPTA stats, take the Betis game, Crouch makes a brilliant pass to Bolo, and he passes to Garcia who then score. Crouch set up that goal, but he won't get the assist.
Like I've said in several other post, I think Liverpool as a TEAM looks more likely to score with Crouch/Morientes on the pitch, than with Cissè.
I`m a fan of Cissè, but I don't think he fits in to Rafas preferred system.
I think he's out of here in the summer, or maybe even in January if sombody makes a good offer.
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Offline Big Joe

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #15 on: December 2, 2005, 09:52:24 pm »
Agree with StevieMagic.

I smell the PR wheel turning & whilst I always enjoy (& mostly agree with ) Mr Tomkins's writings, this one has the stench of a Bascombe-like manager agenda supporting Cisse depreciating  piece of LFC propaganda.




Offline Buster 'Hook Hand' Bluth

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #16 on: December 2, 2005, 09:58:56 pm »
I thought it was a positive piece about Cisse by a writer who is a big fan of the player, but doesnt feel he suits the system, just as Ole Gunnar says. Crouch is a constant in the team, whereas Cisse is in and out of the side, and switched about a lot. Seeing as Benitez prefers Crouch to Cisse in the role of central striker, then it comes down to how happy Cisse is with his lot. After being subbed last week he seemed far from happy.

Beyond that, I imagine you're reading far too much into it.
Who is this man, where is he from?
Defenders ask "Where has he gone?"
He fools them all, there is no doubt
This is the man this song's about,
And like the Kop, you'll hear me shout
"Give it to Heighway."

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #17 on: December 2, 2005, 11:34:08 pm »
"Come back" they pleaded, wondering how the haters managed to drive away one of their comrades...
Some clubs were always destined for greatness...

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #18 on: December 3, 2005, 08:05:43 am »
wondering how the haters managed to drive away one of their comrades...

Pauls articles were always debated here, I cannot believe he was driven away just because someone disagreed with him.
Life is not always greener on the other side...

http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/Forum3/HTML/493968.html

looking at past threads on search, I'm sure his articulate style was more appreciated here. Even if some did disagree with him after attending some of our performances.
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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #19 on: December 3, 2005, 09:21:47 am »
Sentence structure?

Is he a football fan or literary critic? Fuck's sake. Watch out kids! Chazeroo's going to make El Pres look like a chavved up lolster.
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Offline Ole Gunnar

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #20 on: December 3, 2005, 09:57:21 am »
Lets attack Paul Tomkins and his sentence structure!!


If I only could get my hands on those idiots who "took him away from us"......
Bart: Dad, what's a Muppet?

Homer: Well, it's not quite a mop, not quite a puppet, but man... (laughs, then pauses) So, to answer you question, I don't know.

Offline woof

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #21 on: December 3, 2005, 11:32:49 am »
If I only could get my hands on those idiots who "took him away from us"......
I thought he left on his own accord for greener .tv pastures??

Let's not read too much into these things. Everyone's got the freedom to voice their opinion. That is the basis of web forums such as this.

Offline Red Rascal

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #22 on: December 3, 2005, 09:15:00 pm »
I never felt that Paul Tomkins spins for .tv or anyone. Most of my thoughts had been expressed by him, especially in this piece regarding Rafa. I don't have the footballing brains to write like him. But to me, he is often spot-on!

Actually the idea of a "spin" or "propaganda" is to me outrageous, simply because Liverpool do not have time to do this "intriguing" work. FGS, this is not a Third World Dictatorship or a political game! At the end of the day, and especially after today's game and Crouch's goals, Paul Tomkins writings are getting ominous as the day goes by. And I am happy for that.

This particular piece says it all, for me. Thanks Paul.
"Tactically, I did my job." (Rafa Benitez)

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #23 on: December 4, 2005, 12:10:26 am »
Paul Tomkins is by far my favourite writer on Liverpool and I miss the days when he used to write a few pieces on here each week.

I have no idea what the background was behind him leaving this site (other than what I've read in this thread) but I think it's a real shame that someone hassled him sufficiently for him to feel he couldn't come back on here. In fact, it's a bit of an outrage really.

But anyone who doubts that he knows what he's talking about let me refer you to the piece Paul wrote last season when we got through to the quarter finals of the CL where he wrote that it was far from impossible that we could win the CL - primarily due to the lack of pressure on us because of our underdog status (incidentally, something which I believe is helping us a bit in the league at the moment). Just look at his pieces on Crouch - which like the CL prediction is backed up by the facts. Paul has consistently said since the summer that Crouch does so much more than score goals; the fact - Crouch wasn't scoring but our away form has improved. Rafa when questioned about the improvement says "the reason? Peter Crouch". Paul said that the press (and a minority of fans) would turn on Crouch if he didn't score many goals. The facts? The press were all over him and many fans criticise him for not scoring enough. Paul said that Crouch would come good - the facts? Two goals against Wigan and a good performance to boot.

What Paul writes are opinion pieces. His opinions won't always be right or hold true; but at least they are always reasoned and reasonable. Back in school we should all have learned about the difference between argument and assertion - argument being backed up with facts and reasons; assertion lacking such qualities. Paul Tomkins never, in my experience, merely asserts.

And it is legitimate to challenge his opinions, point out where you think he is wrong or simply modify or advance what Paul is saying. But it is not legitimate to hound him for his views, to swear or rant at him or to try to challenge him with mere assertion.

I hope Paul continues to allow his pieces to be published on this site and that he continues writing so prolifically, even if he isn't going to come on here himself. He's a great writer and enjoyable to read. I just hope everyone will give him the respect he deserves.
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Offline StevieMagic

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #24 on: December 7, 2005, 10:37:44 pm »
Here goes nothing as I will be banned for a few days I am sure  ;)

Break it down anyway you like ....... Cisse over the past 12 months or so has proven to be the best of a poor lot. You could say the pack of cards has recently been loaded to help the other guys #'s (Cisse has been messed around positionally and that is when he even got a game nevermind a full one) but it still has not helped them. If Morientes had slotted in that sitter Cisse served up against Wigan, Cisse would have equaled the # of assists created by his so call more team oriented strike partners. Again thats not much to shout about but I never seen a PR machine so eager to give an OG to a striker before, have you? The same PR machine is also very keen to repeat the lack of open play goals from Cisse as I have seen "1 pen, 1 set play and 1 cross " stated in nearly every Tomkins speil since the day he got the nod that its time. As someone said it reminds them of Bascombe in teh old days as Tomkins misuses his abilities to forward his career while slowly eating away at others. That man should reread some of his older stuff and wonder what happened to the view that Cisse is breaking through walls to get his career back on track after an injury that would have had most pros on the sidelines for 12 months & more. This is the same shyte striker that played a decent part in creating Tomkins greatest night as a fan since the late 80's and the same striker who single handily won us our only trophy this current season. The same man has spent gallons of ink defending others over the past 10 months or so while the ink was barely dry on Cisse is back headlines before he pulled out the pen again to say Cisse is no longer required.

I have rarely seen us buy a player for 14m whos talents were obvious and his inabilities even more so and then ask him to change his pattern of play so we can ignore his pluses. Yep lets buy a Ferrari and then attach a ton trailer on the back of it. I am tired of swimming against the tide as once it turns you may as well go with the flow.


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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #25 on: December 7, 2005, 10:51:13 pm »
Here goes nothing as I will be banned for a few days I am sure  ;)

Break it down anyway you like ....... Cisse over the past 12 months or so has proven to be the best of a poor lot. You could say the pack of cards has recently been loaded to help the other guys #'s (Cisse has been messed around positionally and that is when he even got a game nevermind a full one) but it still has not helped them. If Morientes had slotted in that sitter Cisse served up against Wigan, Cisse would have equaled the # of assists created by his so call more team oriented strike partners. Again thats not much to shout about but I never seen a PR machine so eager to give an OG to a striker before, have you? The same PR machine is also very keen to repeat the lack of open play goals from Cisse as I have seen "1 pen, 1 set play and 1 cross " stated in nearly every Tomkins speil since the day he got the nod that its time. As someone said it reminds them of Bascombe in teh old days as Tomkins misuses his abilities to forward his career while slowly eating away at others. That man should reread some of his older stuff and wonder what happened to the view that Cisse is breaking through walls to get his career back on track after an injury that would have had most pros on the sidelines for 12 months & more. This is the same shyte striker that played a decent part in creating Tomkins greatest night as a fan since the late 80's and the same striker who single handily won us our only trophy this current season. The same man has spent gallons of ink defending others over the past 10 months or so while the ink was barely dry on Cisse is back headlines before he pulled out the pen again to say Cisse is no longer required.

I have rarely seen us buy a player for 14m whos talents were obvious and his inabilities even more so and then ask him to change his pattern of play so we can ignore his pluses. Yep lets buy a Ferrari and then attach a ton trailer on the back of it. I am tired of swimming against the tide as once it turns you may as well go with the flow.



My friend, you're getting yourself in a pickle about nothing. PR machine? You don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. Don't presume you know stuff when you don't.

I am a HUGE fan of Cissé. If he leaves Liverpool he will score goals, especially if it's back in France. I'd love to see him succeed at Liverpool. I've been willing him to ever since he arrived.

But in case you haven't been watching, he's falling down the pecking order, and his style doesn't seem to suit the direction in which we're headed. If Rafa doesn't rate him - and here I'm just surmising - then he's a player we could cash in on. That's all I said, in much the way I saw it coming with Baros, too. And no, that wasn't down to insider info or PR nonsense. It was down to watching with my own eyes, and listening to what the manager was saying. Cissé is a great player, who just doesn't seem to fit in with what this manager wants. Where's the crime there?

Personally, I'd love to see Cissé stay and bang in the goals, but I fear he needs to be in the team every week to feel confident, and as the central striker in this system is required to hold the ball up, that might not happen.

Anything else you want to accuse me of, email me at gprf@btinternet.com, and I'll gladly take the time to explain to you how I work, and how my job writing for the official site works  :wave

Offline Zappa

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #26 on: December 7, 2005, 10:58:57 pm »
Spot on Paul.

Problem is as I see it- Cisse is a prolifically scoring midfielder with an easilly bruised attitude.

I'd love to be wrong, but as I wrote (and got attacked for) last year, I can't for the life of me see him fitting in with Rafa's way.

He's a cracking player in the wrong team
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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #27 on: December 7, 2005, 11:03:27 pm »
He's a cracking player in the wrong team


That could well sum it up. Or a cracking player with the wrong manager (but as Liverpool have the right manager...)

Offline Drobs

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #28 on: December 7, 2005, 11:46:33 pm »


He's a cracking player in the wrong team

Even I'm starting to believe that this might well be the case, and I've been holding out as much hope for the lad as anyone.

If Rafa wants to have some pace, and as you said he should do, then it seems said person would have to have the willingness to work or sit it out at times. But you don't find many of those anywhere.

Very tricky one the whole Cisse debacle, you just cant tell which way it will go. We need the pace but it seems Rafa only wants it as a back up, and not many top strikers will warm benches for a living.

Bloody game.  ;D
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Offline StevieMagic

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #29 on: December 8, 2005, 02:36:21 am »
Some of the smallest companies in the world have a PR person so I have to presume LFC has one hell of a one considering they have to keep the majority of their huge fan base happy. Working on the official site requires certain criteria and one of those is knowing when to critise players and when not to. I feel as long as a player is in the good books with the manager or even a manager with club, you will thread carefully.

I am making a huge presumption here as I do not have time to reread all your articles but I have a strong hunch that you have never written off the likes of Josemi, Pellegrino, Nunez, Morientes & Co in the same manner as Cisse while they were all in the squad. Why is that as your own eyes would surely have led you to stating just once why is he on the bench or even in the starting 11 again. Your hands are surely not tied are they? Likewise with the previous manager as I believe you went as far as not posting for a long time while others were starting to really question where the club was going under him. Again I am making a presumption that your first really criticism of that man was around the same time most if not all saw the noose was out. Very strategic as I am sure the behind close doors discussions amongst yourself & other staff at RAWK were miles apart from the official spin and there is the key. Its part & parcel of been in the trenches & whether you work for the official site or RAWK, you have to at least abide by the official stance of the club otherwise it will be ta ta to whatever benefits come along with that position.

Back to Cisse....who in their right mind would not think that when GH left that both future player and the next manager did not sit down together and discuss their plans. Perfect opportunity for both to shake hands and say you are not part of my plans. They obviously agreed they were on the same page so for Rafa to now indicate Cisse, our & his record transfer purchase, may not be up to the role he had planned for him, approx 1500 or so league minutes into his career may appear to be a little premature. No? Especially when you consider what the player has gone through....remember he has played about 700 league minutes (in dribs & drabs) since his broken leg..... it be nice to see a little balance in your opinion as for every great layoff Crouch has produced Cisse has served a chance on the plate for the likes of the misfiring Morientes.

Hey I like Mori but I see with my own eyes that he obviously is getting preferential treatment to the point we are playing two players who want to assume the same role & position on the field. Surely the club or system cannot afford that luxury and as previous posts by yourself would indicate you previously had felt Crouch or Morientes would be ideal partner for the quicker Cisse. Cisse's best will only be seen if he consistently gets selected. Instead he is the only leading striker, similar examples are Henry, RVN, Drogba & Co, at a top club with a transfer record tag around his neck who has to look at his manager throw on the likes of Kewell, Morientes & Pongolle (season goal tally? 2 or 3 combined) ahead of him. Thats one hell of a luxury for us to leave untouched and it would be one hell of a shame to let him go out the door if we never actually tapped his abilities. The most expensive stone unturned in my books.

No crime in it all as we have all have our opinion. Some just have to bite their lips as their role on the site means certain feelings will have to be kept within. Heres mine for all to see so if you have anything to say just post it here.  Hopefully I will see it when the fog clears.

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #30 on: December 8, 2005, 03:29:22 am »


I am making a huge presumption here as I do not have time to reread all your articles

should have stopped typing right there.

if the criticism is going to be about Paul and his imaginary role as a PR flack for the club, you should read the articles he has written to make sure you know what you are talking about.

get back to us when you've done your homework...
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Offline StevieMagic

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #31 on: December 8, 2005, 06:00:59 am »
should have stopped typing right there.

if the criticism is going to be about Paul and his imaginary role as a PR flack for the club, you should read the articles he has written to make sure you know what you are talking about.

get back to us when you've done your homework...

I said reread...at this stage I must have read 80% of his opinions on here & dont have to go back too far about his views on Cisse. I could repost them if you like but hey I know the majority of people here like his stuff so to each his own and I will be flogged for  even hinting he is wrong.....hey he probably is right about Cisse as we all know he wont get much of a chance to prove himself as we have seen enough....yep all 1500 minutes or so which equates to approx 10000 pounds per minute plus wages I think.Have a read of the below and tell me where the tide starting shifting

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=77513.0

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=71492.0

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=48505.0

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=36554.0

So where did it go wrong as up until Sept 2005 Cisse could do no wrong......strange. Homework, here you go, have a read of it & tell me what way the wind is blowing.

Offline SMD

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #32 on: December 8, 2005, 06:29:00 am »
Because that's when we started seeing how Benitez had his team set up as he wanted it - and it was clear that Cisse wouldn't fit in any of the roles.

Now we're playing 4-4-2 again, he still doesn't seem to be fitting in as a team player.
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Offline XPeriment626

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #33 on: December 8, 2005, 07:20:14 am »
Steviemagic,

with all due respect, you seem extremely pro-cisse and are equally biased in your arguments. Yes, Rafa may have sat down with Cisse at the beginning of both their Liverpool careers and told him that he is part of his plans for the team. Yes, it is likely that Cisse is no longer part of Rafa's plans anymore. Is there anything strange or unjustified about this turnaround? You seem to suggest that because of the first action, Rafa cannot take the second. That is plain ridiculous. When Rafa arrived, Cisse came with a huge reputation and lots of potential. I myself was dead excited about it. Cisse was untested in England and while Rafa may have been aware about the prima-donna aspect of Cisse needing to be the centre of focus for the team's offense (as he was in Auxerre), he perhaps thought over time Cisse could (and would) adapt to a more team-oriented style and attitude to suit Rafa's ethos of a strong team. All this leads to the conclusion that Rafa probably saw Cisse as work in progress and was willing to try to turn him into the Premiership golden-boot player we all hoped he would become.

Alas, the horrific injury killed his season and he was forced to battle back bravely to return to football. However, his comments on his return to the team seemed to be focused on how fast he could run as opposed to how well he could control the ball and shoot it. Having observed him for some time now, it is clear that his pace and powerful shot are generally the only thing going for him, neither trait well regarded by Rafa in his style of play. Liverpool don't counterattack anymore as the primary form of offense - we control games and strangle opponents. Cisse's strengths would have been a tremendous bonus had he demonstrated the willingness to play the role that everyone else did - do the horse-work to benefit the team as a whole. If Gerrard, the undisputed best player on Merseyside for some time now and our captain, can sacrifice his central midfield slot to play right-midfield, who is Cisse to bitch that he should be given his preferred central striking role all the time. Remember, we only see what happens on the pitch. I imagine Rafa must be sick to death of hearing Cisse's childish rants on the training ground which none of us will ever know about.

While Crouch and Cisse have both been rather unprolific in front of goal recently, Crouch at least specialises in destabilising opposing defences, no matter how vaunted they are (read A-R-G-E-N-T-I-N-A), and creating chances for the midfield to score (hmmm, nine games unbeaten, 16-0 goals score/conceded). Cisse's specialty increasingly seems to be running down blind alleys (suddenly, selling Baros is beginning to look like a mistake) and gesticulating wildly at his teammates for not laying the perfect ball at his feet on the few occasions that he actually manages to break the offside trap.

To me, Rafa rates a hardworking team player with lesser skills above a talented, petulant celebrity wannabe. The former may at best be just an unspectacular part of an effective team, but at least he will not be like the latter and destroy the entire team fabric with dissent and disunity. A team full of Peter Crouches will give you something close to what Rafa has in mind as a strong, united team (albeit a team of giraffes), but a team full of Cisses will give you Real Madrid, the pop-star team that consistently fails to live up to the hype.

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Offline RedImpact

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #34 on: December 8, 2005, 08:15:56 am »
Unless we receive something substantial for Cisse in the January transfer window getting rid of him b4 the summer is insane. Personally, i don't see how Djibril fits into the future of our club as his attitude and erraticism are genuine concerns ... concerns which RAFA im sure will be thinking about in the not too distant future when considering Cisse's (if he hasn't made up his mind already ... which wouldn't surprise me) ... but all of us should understand even if we have a 'Shevchenko' type player on our team list at the moment BUT if he doesnt fit into the scheme of things for us to be consistantly challenging Europe and the Premiership each and every year ... he just doesnt fit in end off!! We have the best fans on the land and a captain ready to lead and explode into his prime years ... blend that with a manager with the detail, vision and professionalism of RAFA and where well on our way to glory days. All you Cisse lovers out there ... if your genuine Liverpool FC fans you'd understand that whether Cisse stays or goes, its for the good of the team and the club ... YNWA!

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #35 on: December 8, 2005, 08:24:49 am »
So where did it go wrong as up until Sept 2005 Cisse could do no wrong......strange. Homework, here you go, have a read of it & tell me what way the wind is blowing.


As I said, I'm a big fan of Cissé, and spent ages defending him to a poster called Azer, who despised him.

Now you come along, and seem to think we should be Cissé Football Club. I've told you that I'm a big fan, but what changed? Well, he was subbed at City, didn't take it well, then was left out. So using my own eyes, I could see that he was getting frustrated at being rotated/subbed, and that Rafa was getting frustrated with him.

Go read my latest piece for .tv, and you will see that I talk about trusing Rafa to sell my personal favourites if he wants to, as he knows what he wants. Cissé is a personal favourite of mine, one of the players I root for above others. But I can see that he isn't fitting in.

Oh, and Morientes is playing slightly behind Crouch, to link play, as he did at Monaco.

Beyond that, rant and rave away, because I'm agreeing to disagree, especially with your version of the truth  :wave

Offline StevieMagic

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #36 on: December 8, 2005, 03:31:45 pm »
I guess we will all differ in our opinion and thats perfectly fine with me.

I will continue to believe if we gave the likes of EHD, Diao & Co a decent chance to prove themselves with our club then surely Cisse deserves a similar chance. As you said his first season was a write off and now 10 or so games into his "first" season he is been written off. One hell of a write off as between wages & loss value we may lose close to 8m - 10m. That # was unacceptable for other very successful players who were knocking on our door to return. Makes sense that.

Now there is a common thought that he is not a team player.......that is where I frown upon the PR machine as last time I looked he is as much a team player as the likes of Garcia, Morientes & Co. They have their moments of "I am not too bothered about it all as I will put this down to one of those games that just went by me"
but the microscope will let them escape from this slackness as its presently elsewhere at the moment.

Liverpool do require a pacy forward, as every system has a place for one, and they do not come cheap. They also will have a selfish attitude which is what I hear the best including Rafa preach as a must do to Crouch. We may have to shell out 10m plus for somebody that may score 15 league goals for us next season, which is approx the same tally Ciise was on track to reach until he was benched for showing the same traits we are trying to instill in Peter. The man never complained about playing up front or out wide and even today he still has kept his mouth publically shut, well as much as his manager has I guess, as after losing most of a season to a broken leg he just wants to play. That is where the frustration is creeping in as he knows he is the best of what may be the weakest strike force we have ever have. Of course they are not there to score but create and as their assist # of 1 or 2 in total clearly indicates, they are doing that role for sure. Thank god we have the likes of Gerrard & Co popping up and creating their own chances as at the moment they have to shake the hands of their strikers a couple of times in gratitude for creating that goal for them.

 I wont shed too many tears if he goes but I could say the same for some others as well. While Cisse looks at his very short LFC career with a wee bit of disappointment he must wonder why others are getting away with indifferent form who have less excuses than him. Maybe they are also just starting their time with the club thus deserve a little slack but the rope tightens for himself even though he has played approx 1700 league minutes (in dribs and drabs). If that is not the finest example of a knee jerk reaction then .......so lad there is my opinion and I hardly think its a rant & rave.  Hardly.

Offline Consigliere

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #37 on: December 8, 2005, 11:33:03 pm »
Cisse has his strengths - pace, and power of shot - and the addition of his 'electricity' and unpredictability when he comes off the bench helps to add a certain "je ne sais quoi" to our play. He also seems to be useful in situations where we're protecting a lead and are trying to close out the game. In those situations, RB seems to bring him off the bench to keep the opposition defenders 'honest' - in other words, stop them from compressing the play and putting increased pressure onto our midfield and defence. And you also have to give him credit for his enthusiasm, effusiveness and passion, though the latter seems to be a double edged sword. 

However, I can't shake the mental image that Cisse is a missile without a guidance system. Unless he changes his natural game (which I think is difficult for someone who is 24), I certainly don't see him in Rafa's best XI. If Monsieur Houllier were to turn up at Anfield carrying a suitcase with £14m in it, I'm sure Rafa would bite his hand off. I'm surprised that Houllier hasn't made a move using the Essien money.

I think one of the forum members above made a good point when he said that Cisse was a good player in the wrong team. But its difficult to see exactly is the "right team" for him, or more accurately, what exactly is the right style of play that would get the best out of Cisse as well as the best out of the team in which he plays. 

The point which SteveMagic makes about giving Cisse a chance because the likes of EHD, Diao et al were given a chance is like comparing apples to oranges. EDH and Diao are nowhere near the level at which Cisse is at. Both of them are vastly inferior players and if anything, they were given too much of a chance to prove themselves which arguably, was to the detriment of the team.

Houllier and Benitez are completely different managers as well as completely different personalities. Houllier always seemed to feel a pressure to justify his player purchases (particularly were they involved large transfer fees) or where he felt criticism of player amounted to a criticism of him personally as a manager. He kept them in the squad for far longer than was  necessary even though they weren’t performing, with the hope (some would say blind faith) that they would come good eventually.

I’m not so sure that Benitez acts in the same way at all – he seems far more objective when assessing whether current players are suitable for the team and has no hesitation in jettisoning them if he think that aren’t performing or aren’t likely to improve sufficient or reach the required standard in future. This ‘objectivity’ can seen through him dropping players (Josemi) or jettisoning players (Nunez, Pelligrino) that has chosen personally.

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #38 on: December 9, 2005, 05:15:38 pm »
This ‘objectivity’ can seen through him dropping players (Josemi) or jettisoning players (Nunez, Pelligrino) that has chosen personally.


A very good point. Managers have 'favourites' purely because they like what that player has to offer, and fit into the team. It's not about having favourites for the sake of it, as you've pointed out.

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Re: Rafa: Making The Difference - by Paul Tomkins
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2005, 07:22:49 pm »
"I don't know why, but I'm getting this sense that Rafa could send out the Hartlepool reserves in red shirts and have the team playing his style of football, and succeeding."

Brilliant!  ;D  I do believe that Rafa could also do it with the French monkey lynchers! ;)

A lot of players were 'jettisoned' before this season, Nunez, Biscan, Smicer,etc, they all contributed to our last season.

As far as Cisse (how do you type the acute accent over the last 'e'?) is concerned, Rafa has already been through this with Harry's situation, as well as Djib's.  Both players have suffered extreme injuries.

At £14mil, Djbril is a proven big gun, with eleven goals already this season the press, as well as some of our supporters, attempt to discect statististics and compartmentalize - causing a dilution of achievement through statistics. There are lies, there are manipulators and there are statisticians!

Believe me, there are many teams out there who would be cock-a-hoop to get Cisse, and we are lucky to have him. Djbril has made it clear that he does not want to go to another team. He has a lovely home, a lovely wife and a fantastic Team with a superb tactically astute manager who has long term strategic aims for Liverpool FC. 

There are quite a few Board Of Directors from other football clubs who would have loved to get Rafael Benitez, but they did'nt - our BOD did a good job! It is not a coincidence that Benitez and Maurren'O' where being scouted for by two or three premiership clubs. Parry did well.  Chelsea made out that their second choice was their first, and gave him a massive shopping trolley to trawl the transfer market last year. Philosophically this means a TRubled response. If your manager and your players (employees) don't keep to performance targets and you throw money at it to cure it, it will only do so in the short to medium term.

The thing is that Rafael Benitez is here for the football in the long term, not the paypacket, but to take on a challenge. Philosophically, Rafa is the man for us.

Back to Cisse -


To the tune of 'Pin Ball Wizard' by the Who.



CISSE FIRING ON ALL CYLINDERS


Ever since he was young boy,
He has played with the silver football.
From Paris St.Germain to Auxerre,
He must have played them all.

But I ain't seen nothing like him
In any arena of football.....
That blinding young French kid
Sure plays a mean football !

He stands like a statue,
Becomes part of the Team.
Dodging all the tackles
Always playing clean.
He plays by intuition,
The defenders try and fall.
That blinding young French kid
Sure plays a mean football !

He's a football wizard
There has got to be twist.
A football wizard,
By his boot the ball is kissed.

'How do you think he does it? I don't know!
What makes him so good?'

He ain't got no distractions
Can't hear those cusses and yells,
Don't see the foodlights flashin'
Plays by sense of smell.
Always has a replay,
'n' never faults at all.....
That blinding young French kid
Sure plays a mean football.

{Thierry Henry}
I thought I was
The football king.
But I just handed
My football crown to him.

Even on my usual playground
He can beat me at my best.
His Team mates lead him in
And he just does the rest.
He's got crazy drive and speed
Never seen him fail.....
That blinding young French kid
Sure plays a mean football!


Soc's.


 
 

.





The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.

Socrates