Topic: Liverpool's Defence

[ShayGuevara]

"We're going away from home so we have got to be hard to beat and look to keep a clean sheet, because I'm confident we'll score. It's important that we all chip in, especially when we've not been playing too well.

"Goals have not been coming as freely as last year. It's important we lead from the front in defending as well and keep clean sheets, because we may not steamroller teams like last season.

"It's important that we find different ways of winning games, and that might be by keeping it tight and nicking it with one or two goals. A result there could kickstart our season.

Quotes from Lallana pre Ludogorets.

He's suggesting we'll continue to play a pressing game. People are scapegoating our players particularly Lovren for what ever reason but truth is our problems are coming from the system. Lovren wasn't here last season when Palace stuck 3 by us also.

If Rodgers persists on this pressing game (which I'm a fan of if played effectively) he need's to

(a) Keep players fit and prevent burn out. With players like Lallana and Coutinho they'll give you work rate but for 90 mins twice a week? No chance.

(b) Stop conceding possession so easily. We force play, fair enough against sides with high lines try those risky passes to get in behind but when your playing sides that counter why not be a little bit more patient rather than a Gerrard drilled shot, Johnson cutting in on his left for a shot or generally just a stupid pass to force play. We see it so often it has to stop particularly against sides who sit deep.

(c) If we can't do both of the above then we need more protection for our back 4 and that means a Henderson/Lucas/Can 2 in a 4-2-3-1 against counter attacking sides. Against passing sides who play high lines we play well in a 4-3-3 with Gerrard as regista (Spurs,Everton,Arsenal etc.) but our biggest problem is against those counter attacking sides (Villa, Chelsea, Southampton, Palace etc) and how we approach those games need's to change unless of course we can do a and b above to a really high level.

United are playing with one of the worst defences I've ever seen from a top half side in the Premier League yet they are grinding out results because of the players ahead of them putting in a shift and the system being designed to compliment defenders. It's about systems more than players you play a high pressing game where you give away the ball so easily you will be punished it wouldn't matter if you had Thiago Silva and Kompany as your CB pairing they'd still look as poor as Lovren and Skrtel do now (or at least pretty damn close).

[Draex]

draex tell me your not being serious?

did you not see louvren at lyon?
he was eratic quiet a few games when lyon were shown in the cl....came as no suprise our initial interest cooled a few years back.

mistake we made here is presuming he had matured on the back of last season.

its not like he is a 20 year old who has scope to improve.
if you making mistakes at 25 its a major worry...and we paid 20 mil!!!
that is a bit scary

im not impressed by sakho but that deal was not as bad.

i think as deschamp shows...if you get an organised defence you can cover up his deficiencies.....

I didn't watch Lovren at Lyon, saw him at Southampton and thought he was excellent, he started well here and has regressed.. I've never rated Skrtel, I've always thought he has been carried slightly by an excellent partner - Agger/Carragher etc. Put Skrtel in the right team he is a good player.. But he is still limited and is that what we need now? I don't believe so.

[007.lankyguy]

At least I can spell the name right eh?

We have tried to move him on a few times, he is a limited defender that excels in the type of system (i.e. the structured ones of Clarke and Rafa) he needs someone to hold his hand through the game, which isn't something we need - considering Rodgers wants technically excellent 1 v 1 defenders.

Why has he persisted with Skrtel then? I'm not saying that he doesn't want defenders who can play out from the back and are good in 1v1s but there's this idea that Rodgers has been looking to play an aggressive high line and yet I see no evidence that he's been going about trying to make this happen.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

At least I can spell the name right eh?

We have tried to move him on a few times, he is a limited defender that excels in the type of system (i.e. the structured ones of Clarke and Rafa) he needs someone to hold his hand through the game, which isn't something we need - considering Rodgers wants technically excellent 1 v 1 defenders.

so louvren and sakho dont need their hands held??
if your going to argue a point at least pick on a fault that the other 2 dont have.

and backing off isnt not a fault or carra would have not been here very long.

[Draex]

Why has he persisted with Skrtel then? I'm not saying that he doesn't want defenders who can play out from the back and are good in 1v1s but there's this idea that Rodgers has been looking to play an aggressive high line and yet I see no evidence that he's been going about trying to make this happen.

You tell me mate, I could dig out multiple quotes where Rodgers said exactly what he wants and that lists 1 v 1 defenders high up there. Puzzles me.

[Draex]

so louvren and sakho dont need their hands held??
if your going to argue a point at least pick on a fault that the other 2 dont have.

and backing off isnt not a fault or carra would have not been here very long.

Sakho you mean club captain for PSG at 18? The organiser and leader of the French national team?

[clinical]

Give Sakho and Toure an extended run in the team. They won't be anywhere near as bad as the two clowns playing now.

[007.lankyguy]

You tell me mate, I could dig out multiple quotes where Rodgers said exactly what he wants and that lists 1 v 1 defenders high up there. Puzzles me.

Everyone wants good 1v1 defenders to be fair.

It may well be that that is what he wants but I doubt Skrtel would still be a first choice defender for Rodgers if he prized that attribute, and others like it, so highly. And we don't really play a high line, nor try and catch players offside or actually have anything in our defensive structure that particularly demands good 1v1 defenders (apart from being very open on the counter attack but I don't think that's really in the plan!)

[Draex]

Everyone wants good 1v1 defenders to be fair.

It may well be that that is what he wants but I doubt Skrtel would still be a first choice defender for Rodgers if he prized that attribute, and others like it, so highly. And we don't really play a high line, nor try and catch players offside or actually have anything in our defensive structure that particularly demands good 1v1 defenders (apart from being very open on the counter attack but I don't think that's really in the plan!)

Could it be more down the fact we have no defensive plan/structure? We don't appear to play to triggers, looks to me like a defence that spends very little training time defending together as a cohesive unit.

[Didi_ram]

Im assuming Grobbelaar's "Dracula is better" comment has already been discussed? 

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

 Skrtel was top class in many seasons under Rafa, under Kenny and parts of Rodgers tenure.

Quite, just a gentle reminder that Martin Skrtel made the second most appearances at centre back (after the ever present Carra) during the 08 / 09 title challenge. Not Agger, not Hypia. (though it was close between him and Agger iirc, certainly feel free if anyone wishes to check up those stats again).

There's an excellent player there if you know how to use him. He's played in a very unchannelled manner under Rodgers, leading to mistakes and Lovren this season is exhibiting simiar issues. We need to be getting better out of these guys; Skrtel, with age his time here will come to a close in the near future but Lovren, certainly it would be such a waste of money to not try to make more out of him.

[007.lankyguy]

Could it be more down the fact we have no defensive plan/structure? We don't appear to play to triggers, looks to me like a defence that spends very little training time defending together as a cohesive unit.

I think we probably have very basic instructions defensively and very basic training for it (though Rodgers has been talking recently about working on the defence and trying to be more compact). There certainly isn't a lot of work done as a unit or at least not done in detail and you're right, they don't really react to triggers by pushing up together or looking particularly coordinated.

To a certain extent, we covered it up last season, even though we were still vulnerable and we still didn't, for example, compress the space between the lines that well. We just had a very good appetite and work rate in front and I think a simple desire to attack and score goals probably helped in that regards, as well as the confidence of the team. Now we're all over the place in attack and our defensive weaknesses and mistakes are just being more exposed.

I can't particularly see Rodgers changing this anytime soon or changing his general approach to focus far more on getting a good defensive structure. I think it was PoP last season who said it's just going to be a case of us buying better defenders than it is changing our structure to make us more compact.

[ShayGuevara]

Quite, just a gentle reminder that Martin Skrtel made the second most appearances at centre back (after the ever present Carra) during the 08 / 09 title challenge. Not Agger, not Hypia. (though it was close between him and Agger iirc, certainly feel free if anyone wishes to check up those stats again).

There's an excellent player there if you know how to use him. He's played in a very unchannelled manner under Rodgers, leading to mistakes and Lovren this season is exhibiting simiar issues. We need to be getting better out of these guys; Skrtel, with age his time here will come to a close in the near future but Lovren, certainly it would be such a waste of money to not try to make more out of him.

Rafa's system and Rodgers system are massively different. Skrtel is a good defender, is he suited to playing a high line though? No chance.

[lobsterboy]

Rafa's system and Rodgers system are massively different. Skrtel is a good defender, is he suited to playing a high line though? No chance.

What the fuck is Rodgers system (defence) though? Seriously can somebody enlighten me and possibly his defenders while we are at it?
It doesn't appear to work or exist outside his head no matter who the personnel are.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Rafa's system and Rodgers system are massively different. Skrtel is a good defender, is he suited to playing a high line though? No chance.

I'm not much good at the modern apps, so if someone has one of those programs where they give you defensive line average positions without the ball (when defending), do post it here in comparison to other teams. If something like this is available, of course.

From what I see on the pitch,  I wouldn't call Rodgers's Liverpool a team that defends aggressively with the high defensive line. In his first season, we seemed to start out that way, but now, not so much. I think Skrtel defended higher, as part of a unit, in 08 / 09 than now, where it seems to vary  a fair bit.

[007.lankyguy]

Rafa's system and Rodgers system are massively different. Skrtel is a good defender, is he suited to playing a high line though? No chance.

We don't play a high line though; we just don't have a particularly organised, coordinated and compact defensive structure.

[plura]

Im assuming Grobbelaar's "Dracula is better" comment has already been discussed? 

Not much to be discussed really...

[DeLeiva]

We don't play a high line though; we just don't have a particularly organised, coordinated and compact defensive structure.

What really struck me when watching the game vs. Palace is that it seems like we don't spend much time
working on the shape of the team defensively.

Which, if you believe Bellamy's book was one of Rafa's main preparation.

[SerbianScouser]

What really struck me when watching the game vs. Palace is that it seems like we don't spend much time
working on the shape of the team defensively.

Which, if you believe Bellamy's book was one of Rafa's main preparation.

For me the lack of communication between Gerrard and the back 4 is truly unacceptable. We`ve seen it on many occasions vs Chelsea where he would push out trying to put the pressure on the ball and the back 4 don`t react it to let alone see it as a trigger to push out too and then instead of rectifying it we saw it again for the Palace`s equalizer. Either Gerrard or the back 4 are making a huge mistake there and it`s worrying we seemingly don`t do anything about it.

[Hazell]

Im assuming Grobbelaar's "Dracula is better" comment has already been discussed? 

I do wish ex players wouldn't say stuff like that. I know for some of them it's their job and whatever but it doesn't do the players any favours really. It makes it funnier coming after the Palace game where Mignolet didn't really do a lot wrong (aside from mis kicking a free kick). Honestly wish they'd just shut up, doesn't matter if it's Grobbelaar, Carragher or whoever.

[007.lankyguy]

I do wish ex players wouldn't say stuff like that. I know for some of them it's their job and whatever but it doesn't do the players any favours really. It makes it funnier coming after the Palace game where Mignolet didn't really do a lot wrong (aside from mis kicking a free kick). Honestly wish they'd just shut up, doesn't matter if it's Grobbelaar, Carragher or whoever.

I wouldn't listen to Grobbelaar on anything to be honest. But yeah, the comment was pretty idiotic - one way to put even more pressure on our keeper.

[Hazell]

We don't play a high line though; we just don't have a particularly organised, coordinated and compact defensive structure.

That's true and under Rafa, we weren't really a team that was camped on our six yard box either. But we were organised, something which seems to be lacking right now and defensively as a team we have been poor for a while. Having read some of the bile in pre/postmatch threads as well as others, I think a lot of the issues we have right stem more from that as opposed to our individual players being poor. Lovren, Skrtel and Johnson seem to be bearing the brunt of it and in the case of the latter two (Lovren I haven't watched much until he arrived in the summer), they're not necessarily bad players but there's a case of people going to far in their criticisms (not you necessarily) - Skrtel isn't a coward who runs to the safety of the six yard box every time the opposition attack and Johnson isn't playing like the worst player in a particularly poor pub team (in fact, I think he's done ok this season). They're not perfect but they have played better for us and like every other player, they have their strengths and weaknesses. But you could stick any defender in the world right now in our team and they'd struggle. That needs to be sorted out collectively at a coaching level, more than just looking at them individually. If it does, we'll see them playing much better.

[Fordy]

Still Gerrard fault is it?

So Lucas played has played as DM and we let in 2 goals and looked poor at the back.

As I have been saying all along our defenders can't defend and our keeper is rubbish. That's why our defense is poor.

[Fiasco]

This season we've conceded 13 goals in all competitions from set-pieces. 13. It's not even December yet.

[RedSince86]

13 goals conceded by set plays this season.


 

[Humperdinck]

Still Gerrard fault is it?

Sure Lucas played has DM and we let in 2 goals and looked poor at the back.

As I have been saying all along our defenders can't defend and our keeper is rubbish. That's why our defense is poor.

The biggest problem all along has been Martin Skrtel and Glen Johnson in the last 6months to a year too.

The one time we've looked solid under Rodgers and were conceding under 1 a game was when Skrtel was out of the team, Skrtel was out of the team last season we had 2 clean sheets in 2, Skrtel was out of the team this season we conceded just 2 in 3 games. They must have done the same move about 15 times on him tonight, chip the ball to the side of him and he got done every time, just doesnt learn lessons though it was far from one of his worst performances.

[Kopite B205]

Give me zonal marking over man for man any day. Failing to complete the basic task of marking your man on set pieces time after time, after fucking time is just sheer incompetence of the highest order.

[Fordy]

The biggest problem all along has been Martin Skrtel and Glen Johnson in the last 6months to a year too.

The one time we've looked solid under Rodgers and were conceding under 1 a game was when Skrtel was out of the team, Skrtel was out of the team last season we had 2 clean sheets in 2, Skrtel was out of the team this season we conceded just 2 in 3 games. They must have done the same move about 15 times on him tonight, chip the ball to the side of him and he got done every time, just doesnt learn lessons though it was far from one of his worst performances.

How Rodgers keeps faith in Skrtel is mind blowing.

[WillyWonka]

Still Gerrard fault is it?

So Lucas played has played as DM and we let in 2 goals and looked poor at the back.

As I have been saying all along our defenders can't defend and our keeper is rubbish. That's why our defense is poor.

Considering Gerrard was partly at fault for the second goal maybe it was him?

[SerbianScouser]

Give me zonal marking over man for man any day. Failing to complete the basic task of marking your man on set pieces time after time, after fucking time is just sheer incompetence of the highest order.

It`s also our incredible bad luck. Gerrard is great on the front post defending and making clearances and one single time tonight he lost a header we conceded. Sometimes we`re beyond unlucky.

[smig]

You're really turning yourself inside out to excuse a terribly average defender.

The three of them are bang average.

[Gonebay]

We need to buy 2 CB in January.

[Melbred]

It`s also our incredible bad luck. Gerrard is great on the front post defending and making clearances and one single time tonight he lost a header we conceded. Sometimes we`re beyond unlucky.

It's not really unlucky when it happens time and time again.

[Kopite B205]

How Rodgers keeps faith in Skrtel is mind blowing.

Skrtel, Johnson and Mignolet are abysmal. Take those three out and replace them with Monkeys in red shirts and I'm convinced we would be better.

[SerbianScouser]

It's not really unlucky when it happens time and time again.

I know but Gerrard never loses headers on the front post and one time it happens it goes over right to Ludo player surrounded with 5 of ours.

[Fordy]

Considering Gerrard was partly at fault for the second goal maybe it was him?

Don't be silly.

Point is Lucas played as DM and our defense was poor.
You could have bloody claude makelele is his prime playing as our DM and our defense would still be poor and our keeper rubbish.
People need to stop making excuses for our poor defense and keeper.

[WillyWonka]

Don't be silly.

Point is Lucas played as DM and our defense was poor.
You could have bloody claude makelele is his prime playing as our DM and our defense would still be poor and our keeper rubbish.
People need to stop making excuses for our poor defense and keeper.

Our defense was still better than when Gerrard plays as DM. It's nice to have a DM who actually makes a tackle during a game.

[Kopenhagen]

People blaming Kolo for the first in the HT thread. 

[bigbear]

People blaming Kolo for the first in the HT thread. 

He panicked unnecessarily when the pass was going nowhere. He wasn't the only one involved but he was at fault.

[Kopenhagen]

He panicked unnecessarily when the pass was going nowhere. He wasn't the only one involved but he was at fault.

Nevertheless, it's a bread and butter stop for any goalkeeper at any level.