Author Topic: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton  (Read 24395 times)

Offline B0151?

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2014, 06:23:43 pm »
Our pretty good start to last year though was mostly performances like yesterday. Scraping by, relying on last-ditch tackles and Mignolet to hold things together. Our performances with them last year were of Top 4 outsiders. Once Gerrard (and then Lucas) got injured, we quickly turned into title contenders.

You're right mate. I suppose it's not much of an argument really, seems barmy we'd put 3 points on the line like that even if we have won with it before.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:25:17 pm by Bakez0151 »

Offline lamonti

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2014, 07:04:49 pm »
A couple of things:

1. We were just too sloppy with the ball, which lead to Southampton building pressure. That sloppiness was spread throughout the team and was the main source of our anguish. We are usually far better at it than that, and I think it can be put down to nerves in large part, though the odd shuffle of formation will not have helped, and Southampton's shrewd targeting of Coutinho (that's likely to happen when you announce him as the brains of the operation!) was part of the issue. Once we found it harder than it has been, we rushed things too much.

2. We're better on the front foot than on the back foot! But the energy required is maybe not there on the first day of the season, and certainly not with the laboured combination of Lucas and Gerrard in the middle. I'll be honest, Gerard looked as lost as he did in the England team in that position. I don't think he even plays defensive midfield, he's a deep lying playmaker and of course he does do a little bit of mopping up, but he's not exactly hunting lads down.

3. Unusual result – I've seen us have this game before, but usually we don't win it, we manage to draw it, either 1-1 or 2-2. Still nearly did, but given that we've struggled with Southampton quite a bit of late, we've done excellently to take the 3 points. I think fluidity will come and we'll get the new signings into the team over time.

4. Can't help but wonder if this formation was looking toward next week. Otherwise, it seems a very odd call from Rodgers.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2014, 07:40:43 pm »
I watched some of the weekend games and none of the teams were comfortable. Only City won by 2 clear goals and even that flattered them as the result could easily have been a draw.

At this stage I think too many people are over analysing one game. Our passing was off and without that we will struggle. We didn't move the ball around well enough but that will come after a couple of games.

We did look weak in midfield and at times Southampton were running at our defence in droves.

Coutinho was well marked and that stifled our attack. I think the whole midfield is where we struggled.

On the positive side I thought Henderson had a good game and at times was the only one pressing and winning tackles.

Sterling's goal was superb and he and Sturridge showed what a difference good attacking players make.

We'll get better and I wouldn't be surprised if Southampton take points off the top teams especially before Christmas.
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2014, 07:40:55 pm »
Still astonished

4. Can't help but wonder if this formation was looking toward next week. Otherwise, it seems a very odd call from Rodgers.

I pray to god this isn't the case.
We'll get ripped apart in midfield if we set up like that

The team was leaked the night before and my heart sank. (I probably wrote too many posts about horrendous it was to be fair)
Gerrard and Lucas didn't play well when they were both younger better players now its just farcical seeing them together as a central 2.

In the first half of last season some incredibly poor teams WALKED through our midfield when it was policed by these two together
In fact our starts drop to us being a mid-table side last year when these two played together (I think ElstonGunn produced the number and we were 10th in the league)

As others have pointed out the gaps between these midfield two and are attacking players - especially Coutinho were alarming
As soon as Allen came on we had a player to transition that gap and either play it or carry it forwards

Defensively it was even worse - neither knows where their responsibility begins and ends and both of them were guilty of allowing players to run off them over and over again

It really was bizarre like a time machine back to the start of last season
I really hope Rodgers watches the tape and its a one off because I hate the taste of rising sick in my mouth when I read the team sheet :)

Apart from that lots of reasons to be positive; the result (which is all at this stage), Sterling (just give him young player of the year now), Lovren and the constantly improving Henderson

Onwards to City and a midfield 3 with Lucas on the bench (please God)




Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2014, 07:51:20 pm »
You could see Rodgers' ideas.  At least to start the season be more defensively solid, try to control games with a strong midfield and lots of possession.  We had loads of possession and looked pretty comfortable defensively through much of the game, which went south once we scored.

The team doesn't have the fitness to press and attack at speed throughout the game yet.  Compared to the beginning of lasts season I thought this was a much better performance.  The last three minutes of the game we had control of the ball instead of desperately hoofing it out of our own penalty area.

If nothing else it seemed to me that we defended at least ten yards further up the pitch than we did at the beginning of last season.  We lost this game 0-1 last season,

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2014, 08:31:28 pm »
I wonder what Rodgers will make of that.

He just seems like the manager who is aware of everything now doesn't he? At least in my mind, he's got that stature.
Just wonder, if this is one thing that even he, may not be fully aware of. If so, I think he would find a solution pretty quick.

I am sure he is aware of this, but tracking every runner does present some problems for the attack as well as defensive shape. While I completely agree with PoP and DanA on this,  there may be some calculated risk-benefit stuff going on too where we could either be getting pinned in -- fewer outlets and defensive third congestion or we read it and suck these runners in and counter. 

I seem to remember Rodgers saying he was brought here to score more goals (create a system to do this).  Maybe this is one area where he sacrifices?  However, in the game, a runner should never be able to run through free. 

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2014, 10:41:28 pm »
The only problem I have with the idea of Rodgers going 4-2-3-1 with Lucas and Gerrard to have us be more defensively solid because we conceded so many goals last season is... we're not more defensively solid. We concede more shots, more shots on target, and neither player appears to know who is doing what. Neither are that good at tracking runners, so when they sit deep with little movement and invite opposition midfields onto them, it's a recipe for disaster. We don't dictate or actually even engage the other midfield, we invite them on to our doorstep and allow them to pick away at us. It's just so incredibly passive.

Added in that it leaves our forward players so isolated and our passing game so disjointed, it means we just invite wave after wave of pressure onto us without exerting any meaningful pressure back. I remember the game against United at home last season when they both played - everytime we won the ball it was hoofed (or aimlessly passed) forward to players who were too tightly marked to have any realistic chance of doing anything with it, they would lose the ball, and it would come straight back. It's not just that it's not great defensively, it just actually exerts more pressure on us because it's like having one less man in midfield.

Going 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard and Lucas against a midfield of Toure, Fernandinho and Fernando, with the quality of attacking players and patterns of movement they have would not make us more defensively solid, it would be suicide. I don't care how we looked against them in a meaningless pre-season game for 15 minutes when they dominated most of the match. It would be a disaster. Fortunately, I don't think we'll see it, which is just as well. 4-2-3-1 maybe, depending on who is fit and available, but surely not with Lucas/Gerrard again.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2014, 11:55:34 pm »
My preference, if we use the 4231 is "Emre Can and 1 other" as the '2'.

I expect the "1 other" to be Gerrard more often than not.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2014, 12:51:00 am »
Some great analysis here but personally I don't want to over-analyze anything, it's too early in the season. I would like to add a couple of things to the discussion at hand

- The decision to play Lucas could have been based on different things, some that have been discussed here already. However as we've seen several times the pairing with Gerrard does not work and is very detrimental. I think Can [if he was fit, if that was the issue] would have helped us a lot more tremendously. For one he would have been able to physical cope with Soton's midfield, and perhaps help Coutinho  implement and impose him self more on the match. Hopefully that's the last time we will see that pairing.

- I would like to see Gerrard play in less matches this year, because I think for all the great qualities that he does posses, i do think that with the options that we have we can gain something in different areas. Non the less, I think Lallana will be a tremendous addition to our midfield and front three. Having him gives us so many options in both parts, we could possibly play:

-----------Gerrard----------

-----Henderson----Lallana-------

---Coutinho--------------Sterling--------

----------------Sturridge------------


Where you could perhaps have Lallana switch roles with Coutinho through out the match and vice versa. He also gives us another way of linking the midfield to the attack without it being solely dependent on Coutinho. There are several options, and because we've used various formations last year to good affect, it gives us good tactically flexibility and opportunity to do so again this year with the players we've brought in.


- Having Manquillo and Moreno as fullbacks is just an exciting prospect all together. So much energy, desire and potential. I think we will benefit from it massively.

Offline telekon

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2014, 01:02:58 am »
Last season when Gerrard and Lucas started together we averaged 1.875 points per game. They started together in 16 games.
When one of them started as a single pivot we averaged 2.45 points per game.

1.87 points per game is 71 points over a season which would have finished 5th last season. 2.45 points per game is 93 points over a season which would have won the league!

I thought we really turned a corner last season when we went with the single pivot in midfield with 2 energetic players ahead. Hendo towards the right and either Allen or Coutinho on the left. The performances with this set up just went to another level. With this in mind when I saw Lucas in the starting line up the confidence just drained out of me. Before the line up was confirmed I was thinking 3 or 4-0. After seeing the line up I thought we'd struggle but win it 2-1 (honest).

I don't want to see the Gerrard and Lucas double pivot again. If we Brendan goes with that at the Etihad I will be quite concerned.

Cheers.

That is a statistical flaw since you will not have a control group where the same game is played a second time with the other combination. In addition, Lucas and Gerrard playing together at Manchester City away will have equal bearing statistically, to Gerrard or Lucas playing Fulham at home. Furthermore, the sample size is quite small.

That said, I concur that them together is not an ideal set-up.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:04:52 am by telekon »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2014, 01:04:15 am »
That is a statistical flaw since you will not have a control group where the same game is played a second time. In addition, Lucas and Gerrard playing together at Manchester City away will have equal bearing statistically, to Gerrard or Lucas playing Fulham at home. Furthermore, the sample size is quite small.

That said, I concur that them together is not an ideal set-up.

Sample size is always going to be small in football though, is it not? Especially when we talk about teams.
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Offline bodhisattva

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2014, 01:12:56 am »
My preference, if we use the 4231 is "Emre Can and 1 other" as the '2'.

I expect the "1 other" to be Gerrard more often than not.

I think Henderson should be the 2nd midfielder (slightly ahead of Gerrard) and then its deciding do you want to play with a proper #10 (Coutino, Sterling, Lallana) or a more solid 2 in front which would be Henderson and then one of Allen or Can or Lucas, which would be game dependent or game situation dependent.

Offline telekon

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2014, 01:17:40 am »
Sample size is always going to be small in football though, is it not? Especially when we talk about teams.

Fair enough, but that was the third argument, with the least weight.

Again, I agree with them playing together doesn't look great and personally I'd prefer another combination, but I just can't help myself when I see illogical assesment of data including confirmation bias.
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2014, 02:06:09 am »
Fair enough, but that was the third argument, with the least weight.

Again, I agree with them playing together doesn't look great and personally I'd prefer another combination, but I just can't help myself when I see illogical assesment of data including confirmation bias.

Speaking of Biases - this might explain some behavior here on RAWK (or we might listen to our Mods more as they see it everyday)....

The 12 cognitive biases that prevent you from being rational by George Dvorsky on 1/09/13 10:20am
http://io9.com/5974468/the-most-common-cognitive-biases-that-prevent-you-from-being-rational

The human brain is capable of 1016 processes per second, which makes it far more powerful than any computer currently in existence. But that doesn't mean our brains don't have major limitations. The lowly calculator can do math thousands of times better than we can, and our memories are often less than useless — plus, we're subject to cognitive biases, those annoying glitches in our thinking that cause us to make questionable decisions and reach erroneous conclusions. Here are a dozen of the most common and pernicious cognitive biases that you need to know about.

Before we start, it's important to distinguish between cognitive biases and logical fallacies. A logical fallacy is an error in logical argumentation (e.g. ad hominem attacks, slippery slopes, circular arguments, appeal to force, etc.). A cognitive bias, on the other hand, is a genuine deficiency or limitation in our thinking — a flaw in judgment that arises from errors of memory, social attribution, and miscalculations (such as statistical errors or a false sense of probability).

Some social psychologists believe our cognitive biases help us process information more efficiently, especially in dangerous situations. Still, they lead us to make grave mistakes. We may be prone to such errors in judgment, but at least we can be aware of them. Here are some important ones to keep in mind.

Confirmation Bias

We love to agree with people who agree with us. It's why we only visit websites that express our political opinions, and why we mostly hang around people who hold similar views and tastes. We tend to be put off by individuals, groups, and news sources that make us feel uncomfortable or insecure about our views — what the behavioral psychologist B. F. Skinner called cognitive dissonance. It's this preferential mode of behavior that leads to the confirmation bias — the often unconscious act of referencing only those perspectives that fuel our pre-existing views, while at the same time ignoring or dismissing opinions — no matter how valid — that threaten our world view. And paradoxically, the internet has only made this tendency even worse.

Ingroup Bias

Somewhat similar to the confirmation bias is the ingroup bias, a manifestation of our innate tribalistic tendencies. And strangely, much of this effect may have to do with oxytocin — the so-called "love molecule." This neurotransmitter, while helping us to forge tighter bonds with people in our ingroup, performs the exact opposite function for those on the outside — it makes us suspicious, fearful, and even disdainful of others. Ultimately, the ingroup bias causes us to overestimate the abilities and value of our immediate group at the expense of people we don't really know.

Gambler's Fallacy

It's called a fallacy, but it's more a glitch in our thinking. We tend to put a tremendous amount of weight on previous events, believing that they'll somehow influence future outcomes. The classic example is coin-tossing. After flipping heads, say, five consecutive times, our inclination is to predict an increase in likelihood that the next coin toss will be tails — that the odds must certainly be in the favor of heads. But in reality, the odds are still 50/50. As statisticians say, the outcomes in different tosses are statistically independent and the probability of any outcome is still 50%.

Relatedly, there's also the positive expectation bias — which often fuels gambling addictions. It's the sense that our luck has to eventually change and that good fortune is on the way. It also contribues to the "hot hand" misconception. Similarly, it's the same feeling we get when we start a new relationship that leads us to believe it will be better than the last one.

Post-Purchase Rationalization

Remember that time you bought something totally unnecessary, faulty, or overly expense, and then you rationalized the purchase to such an extent that you convinced yourself it was a great idea all along? Yeah, that's post-purchase rationalization in action — a kind of built-in mechanism that makes us feel better after we make crappy decisions, especially at the cash register. Also known as Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome, it's a way of subconsciously justifying our purchases — especially expensive ones. Social psychologists say it stems from the principle of commitment, our psychological desire to stay consistent and avoid a state of cognitive dissonance.

Neglecting Probability

Very few of us have a problem getting into a car and going for a drive, but many of us experience great trepidation about stepping inside an airplane and flying at 35,000 feet. Flying, quite obviously, is a wholly unnatural and seemingly hazardous activity. Yet virtually all of us know and acknowledge the fact that the probability of dying in an auto accident is significantly greater than getting killed in a plane crash — but our brains won't release us from this crystal clear logic (statistically, we have a 1 in 84 chance of dying in a vehicular accident, as compared to a 1 in 5,000 chance of dying in an plane crash [other sources indicate odds as high as 1 in 20,000]). It's the same phenomenon that makes us worry about getting killed in an act of terrorism as opposed to something far more probable, like falling down the stairs or accidental poisoning. This is what the social psychologist Cass Sunstein calls probability neglect — our inability to properly grasp a proper sense of peril and risk — which often leads us to overstate the risks of relatively harmless activities, while forcing us to overrate more dangerous ones.

Observational Selection Bias

This is that effect of suddenly noticing things we didn't notice that much before — but we wrongly assume that the frequency has increased. A perfect example is what happens after we buy a new car and we inexplicably start to see the same car virtually everywhere. A similar effect happens to pregnant women who suddenly notice a lot of other pregnant women around them. Or it could be a unique number or song. It's not that these things are appearing more frequently, it's that we've (for whatever reason) selected the item in our mind, and in turn, are noticing it more often. Trouble is, most people don't recognize this as a selectional bias, and actually believe these items or events are happening with increased frequency — which can be a very disconcerting feeling. It's also a cognitive bias that contributes to the feeling that the appearance of certain things or events couldn't possibly be a coincidence (even though it is).

Status-Quo Bias

We humans tend to be apprehensive of change, which often leads us to make choices that guarantee that things remain the same, or change as little as possible. Needless to say, this has ramifications in everything from politics to economics to football. We like to stick to our routines, political parties, and our favorite meals at restaurants. Part of the perniciousness of this bias is the unwarranted assumption that another choice will be inferior or make things worse (superstition). The status-quo bias can be summed with the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" — an adage that fuels our conservative tendencies. And in fact, some commentators say this is why the U.S. hasn't been able to enact universal health care, despite the fact that most individuals support the idea of reform.

Negativity Bias

People tend to pay more attention to bad news — and it's not just because we're morbid. Social scientists theorize that it's on account of our selective attention and that, given the choice, we perceive negative news as being more important or profound. We also tend to give more credibility to bad news, perhaps because we're suspicious (or bored) of proclamations to the contrary. More evolutionarily, heeding bad news may be more adaptive than ignoring good news (e.g. "saber tooth tigers suck" vs. "this berry tastes good"). Today, we run the risk of dwelling on negativity at the expense of genuinely good news. Steven Pinker, in his book The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, argues that crime, violence, war, and other injustices are steadily declining, yet most people would argue that things are getting worse — what is a perfect example of the negativity bias at work.

Bandwagon Effect

Though we're often unconscious of it, we love to go with the flow of the crowd. When the masses start to pick a winner or a favorite, that's when our individualized brains start to shut down and enter into a kind of "groupthink" or hivemind mentality. But it doesn't have to be a large crowd or the whims of an entire nation; it can include small groups, like a family or even a small group of office co-workers. The bandwagon effect is what often causes behaviors, social norms, and memes to propagate among groups of individuals — regardless of the evidence or motives in support. This is why opinion polls are often maligned, as they can steer the perspectives of individuals accordingly. Much of this bias has to do with our built-in desire to fit in and conform, as famously demonstrated by the Asch Conformity Experiments.

Projection Bias

As individuals trapped inside our own minds 24/7, it's often difficult for us to project outside the bounds of our own consciousness and preferences. We tend to assume that most people think just like us — though there may be no justification for it. This cognitive shortcoming often leads to a related effect known as the false consensus bias where we tend to believe that people not only think like us, but that they also agree with us. It's a bias where we overestimate how typical and normal we are, and assume that a consensus exists on matters when there may be none. Moreover, it can also create the effect where the members of a radical or fringe group assume that more people on the outside agree with them than is the case. Or the exaggerated confidence one has when predicting the winner of an election or sports match.

The Current Moment Bias

We humans have a really hard time imagining ourselves in the future and altering our behaviors and expectations accordingly. Most of us would rather experience pleasure in the current moment, while leaving the pain for later. This is a bias that is of particular concern to economists (i.e. our unwillingness to not overspend and save money) and health practitioners. Indeed, a 1998 study showed that, when making food choices for the coming week, 74% of participants chose fruit. But when the food choice was for the current day, 70% chose chocolate.  Our future selves are often sacrificed for our "selves" in the present.

Anchoring Effect

Also known as the relativity trap, this is the tendency we have to compare and contrast only a limited set of items. It's called the anchoring effect because we tend to fixate on a value or number that in turn gets compared to everything else. The classic example is an item at the store that's on sale; we tend to see (and value) the difference in price, but not the overall price itself. This is why some restaurant menus feature very expensive entrees, while also including more (apparently) reasonably priced ones. It's also why, when given a choice, we tend to pick the middle option — not too expensive, and not too cheap.

These biases stated by Dvorsky should be standard argumentation here at RAWK....  Thanks Telekon for the reminder!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 06:49:46 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline jckliew

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2014, 02:20:32 am »


Sterling I can't do justice to. I, like many others, have had the pleasure of watching Raheem for an extra 2 and a bit years before he got his promotion and never looked back. Even despite that apprenticeship of watching Sterling against his peers (most of whom would do well if they managed to grab his shirt as he waltzed past them) he still amazes.

The boy is 19 years of age.

1 goal and 1 assist after a summer of England hype, after a promotion in terms of importance thanks to Suarez's departure, in a team that isn't performing that well on the day.

1 goal and 1 assist the week after tearing also Dortmund apart.

1 goal and 1 assist days after his manager demands he have an identity, demanded that he scores and creates goals.

No fuss, no need.

He's 19

*puffs out cheeks*

He STILLS runs funny
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Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2014, 02:25:23 am »
Speaking of Biases - this might explain some behavior here on RAWK (or we might listen to our Mods more as they see it everyday)....


These biases stated by Dvorsky should be standard argumentation here at RAWK....  Thanks Telekon for the reminder!

You'll need a new crowbar now you've broken your old one forcing that article into this thread ;D ;D  ;D

It is interesting stuff though to be fair. I assume you are a Kahneman fan as well?
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2014, 02:36:52 am »
Just tremendous the stuff in here, especially after a poor game, when there is so much to learn. I suppose its easy to be comfortably critical when you get the three points and its the first game of the season so performance issues are not yet trends.

One question I have for those tactically smart posters. I see an awful lot of the talk focused on the central midfield and forward positions. Lots of concern for the performance of Lucas, and rightly so, he did not look good at all. Unsurprisingly also a few posters have been clear that Johnson's performance was simply not good enough on any level. My question is, how does the teams overall performance, movement, tactics etc. become impacted by the total lack of wide play due to the contributions of the full backs in forward play being so limited?

As I saw it Johnson did get forward but used the ball poorly, and was soon ignored as an outlet, while Manquillo was pinned back because Tadic and Bertrand where playing a very high line on their left side.

Would the same line-up, 4-2-3-1 but with Full backs pushing on much more, make that formation more successful?

Offline karmakgb

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2014, 02:46:25 am »
I was having a bit of a think (a dangerous pastime, I know) and I started wondering if Rodger's might have had a multitude of reasons for playing Lucas and Gerrard in a 4-2-3-1 which did not actually have to do with winning this game.  As has been pointed out, we haven't used this formation much in the last year, including pre-season, and it hasn't been terribly successful when we've gone to it.  Rodger's is a smart manager, why start our season off by dusting off this old chestnut when we need every possible point?

My speculation is that he may have been up to a few things at the same time. Possibly showcasing Lucas for a move or, alternatively, giving him a shot to prove himself after a tough year last year.  But maybe he's up to something else... Catching City off their guard next week?  One of our most important opportunities to take points off one of our main rivals so early in the season.  In American football, there are many special offensive plays and defensive coverages that are left unused until an important moment in the season, to maintain the element of surprise.  Lucas and Gerrard in a 4-2-3-1 is about as vanilla as it gets.  Is it possible that Rodgers was hoping to lull City to sleep with a "just-good-enough-for-3-points" performance and then hit them with some fresh new players and tactics?

Obviously, I have no earthly idea but some of the seemingly odd decisions made by our illustrious skipper make more sense from this perspective. I guess we'll see in due time.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2014, 03:43:49 am »
You'll need a new crowbar now you've broken your old one forcing that article into this thread ;D ;D  ;D

It is interesting stuff though to be fair. I assume you are a Kahneman fan as well?

Yeah... it was a stretch, but when one bias is discussed, it opens a door to some others.

I do like Kahneman and Tversky.  Dan Ariely's work is also interesting. My summer reading was supposed to include Thinking Fast and Slow, but I did not get it done. 
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2014, 04:26:24 am »
Last season when Gerrard and Lucas started together we averaged 1.875 points per game. They started together in 16 games.
When one of them started as a single pivot we averaged 2.45 points per game.

1.87 points per game is 71 points over a season which would have finished 5th last season. 2.45 points per game is 93 points over a season which would have won the league!

I thought we really turned a corner last season when we went with the single pivot in midfield with 2 energetic players ahead. Hendo towards the right and either Allen or Coutinho on the left. The performances with this set up just went to another level. With this in mind when I saw Lucas in the starting line up the confidence just drained out of me. Before the line up was confirmed I was thinking 3 or 4-0. After seeing the line up I thought we'd struggle but win it 2-1 (honest).

I don't want to see the Gerrard and Lucas double pivot again. If we Brendan goes with that at the Etihad I will be quite concerned.

Cheers.
And this is why I'm not a huge fan of statistics, no personal offence!

There is a simple explanation why when Lucas and Gerrard start together the point average is lower compared to when one of them starts. Because Rodgers thinks that they are both needed to contain the stronger teams. I haven't checked the games you drew your statistics from, but I'd go on a limb and venture a guess that we played against stronger teams when the two started. That's why you can't extrapolate the point average from "lesser" teams over the entire season, which includes the stronger two games against the teams as well. Just a guess on my part, but I do t think I'm too wrong.

And I think that we might see Lucas-Gerrad partnership on Monday again...
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2014, 05:22:20 am »
And this is why I'm not a huge fan of statistics, no personal offence!

There is a simple explanation why when Lucas and Gerrard start together the point average is lower compared to when one of them starts. Because Rodgers thinks that they are both needed to contain the stronger teams. I haven't checked the games you drew your statistics from, but I'd go on a limb and venture a guess that we played against stronger teams when the two started. That's why you can't extrapolate the point average from "lesser" teams over the entire season, which includes the stronger two games against the teams as well. Just a guess on my part, but I do t think I'm too wrong.

And I think that we might see Lucas-Gerrad partnership on Monday again...

Without wanting to get into the impact of the statistics, that explanation doesn't really stand. Lucas and Gerrard started together at the beginning of last season simply because they were the preferred midfield partnership. It wasn't game dependent - they played against both strong and "weak" teams. Then Lucas got dropped round about the Norwich game (a full 14 games into the season), but Gerrard was injured the following game and Lucas was back in until Hull. He played two full games following Gerrard's return to fitness before he himself was injured. When Lucas was fit again he only started 3 games - the ones in which Henderson was suspended. In fact following the original abandonment of the partnership wayback in gameweek 14 they only started four games together. One was against Stoke, the other three were purely a result of Henderson's suspension.

The selection of Lucas/Gerrard together was simply something that was favoured then fell out of favour, and was not adjusted for opponent. In fact, arguably our hardest games of the season (City and Chelsea away, City at home, United + Spurs away [ha], and tough games including Arsenal and Everton at home) had us featuring just one of Lucas and Gerrard, so if anything that stat is more impressive. Games against other sides in the top seven last year, i.e. games you would probably class the toughest, provided 12 matches. The pair only started 4 of those, and only one came after we abandoned them (by hook or by crook) as our first choice partnership.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:42:21 am by holymoly »

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2014, 05:23:13 am »
New season, new lucky shirt (3rd black and red), another win…


It is important at this stage of the season to get the win. Some of the early season problems/errors can be ironed out but a few defeats at this stage can make it hard to regain ground. Our performance overall was disappointing and I found it quite a frustrating game to watch. We were sloppy and sluggish: in the second half the commentator mentioned we looked leggy and it was true. Relief is mainly how I felt at the end.


Gerrard was making some nice passes, and making last minute tackles, but him and Lucas frustrate me playing together. They lack the legs to track runners from midfield all game and cut out dangerous moves that come close to our box.
Manquillo looked shaky at first, and seemed to settle down by the second half. I look forward to having Flanagan back and Moreno available so we have competition for Johnston.


The game reminded me of some of the nerve-wracking moments last season where we start brightly, score and then seem to lose our momentum and fall apart.


The concerning aspect for me was the lack of fluidity, the sluggishness. But encouragingly as Rodgers commented after the game: “As the season rolls on we will get better and more fluent.”


I also admire his apparent utter fearlessness, lack of stress and mental strength: he said he enjoyed the title run in last season and he didn’t dwell on the disappointment of not winning it. Sounds like his inner chimp is well and truly trained.


Sterling looked great and I think he will be the star man by the end of the season. Phil, apart from a few nice touches had a quiet game, most likely because as was mentioned, he wasn’t getting the service from Henderson.


Sturridge was there when it mattered with a lovely taken goal, I am pleased he scored. Thought he was well spoken after the game: “There is pressure on myself to get the goals with Luis Suarez out of the team. It’s important for myself and the lads to step up and it’s important as a collective unit that we score the goals. Are we stronger this season? I think so. No disrespect to Luis. He’s a great player and will be missed. But we move on. We have proved we can win games and score goals.”

The crowd was a bit subdued.

so overall rather like first day back at the office with jetlag after a nice holiday.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2014, 06:26:12 am »
I think people are anachronistically projecting backwards from the period after Gerrard began successfully to occupy the '1' in a '1-2' midfield role and engaging in some revisionist history re-writing.

Brendan "flipped the triangle" (remember the thread and the jokes and funny gifs?) with Lucas used as the '1' and Allen and Henderson as the '2'. Gerrard was not available for that game.

For most of 2013, the 'problem' was not Lucas in the '1' spot, at all. Even when we used the 3 CB formation, it worked best when it was 3142 rather than 3412.

The problem was that Gerrard could not be relied upon as one of the '2' in a 1-2 midfield. Moving him to the '1' spot was not because Lucas failed in that role, not in the least.

Never, not once, was Lucas available and fit and another midfielder EXCEPT GERRARD was used as the '1'. Despite all the longing for and lobbying for Henderson to be used there, and despite the fact that when Allen was used there when Lucas was injured (the ACL-tear injury) he did a very good job.

Gerrard is such an awesome player, with such unique skills and capabilities, especially in attack, not to mention a living legend of the club, that a place had to (in a good way) be found for him in the starting Xi when he was fit and available. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there's been a PL match since BR took over in which Gerrard was fit, available (and not returning from injury) and was not part of the starting XI. When he was moved to the 'controller' spot and we used either the 433 or the 41212 formations, the 'double-pivot' including Gerrard went bye-bye. And it was Lucas who was the 'odd man out'. With healthy, fit and in-form Allen, Henderson and Coutinho, and Sterling blossoming, it would take a very special tactical need for BR to choose Lucas as one of the '2' in the 4123/433 or as the '2' or the forward '1' in the 41212/442-diamond. I mentioned Sterling blossoming because that made the need for Coutinho on the flank much less pressing, if at all pressing.

Pretty please, before you respond, re-read the post about the cognitive biases. I did. I am sure I suffered from one or more of them, anyway.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2014, 07:30:17 am »


Great post!



,..t would take a very special tactical need for BR to choose Lucas as one of the '2' in the 4123/433 or as the '2' or the forward '1' in the 41212/442-diamond.



Good points again, I wouldn't say it needs some "special" tactics in order to find a place for Lucas though. There will be games where it will be crucial to have him on the pitch and others where other options will be the better way to go, just as it's the case with every other squad player with the exception of Gerrard although I think we will see something different here as well. There is a need for flexibility, squad wise and in terms of tactics. I think Rodgers to be already prepared for both, he made countless hints in these pre season interviews so far that it will be a flexible squad game from now on with PL and CL football ahead.

Considering this, all those generalisations in terms of first eleven or the "better" or "worse" tactics in a one game situation are pretty philosphical as long as we won the game. Rodgers did react, that's they key, and with teams parking the bus like Southampton there has to be more than one way to go within those 90 minutes anyway.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:49:16 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2014, 07:47:39 am »
It's easy to forget that Lucas and Gerrard sitting hasn't always resulted in a disastrous performance, as much as I am against that partnership.

They had some good performances together in the second half of the 2012/13 season. Helped us to a pretty good start of the season last year. We probably have a better win percentage with them playing there than one might realise.

Definitely a step back like, which was the surprising thing. I'm just trying to rationalise Rodgers decision to go back to it (to myself more than anyone). Hope we won't see them again though.

The things is though that we won the game, one which we probably would have lost one season ago so the choice of Rodgers for Lucas and Gerrard in THIS game cannot be wrong. We dominated for large parts of the game, had lots of possession and considering Southampton did park the bus with 10 men more often than not had us crumbling in the past. But we didn't here, our organisation was spot on and the basics for winning this game. I cannot see why a dip in concentration should be questioning Rodgers game plan here.

Furthermore, as others mentioned this, in terms of Lucas not having the same amount of tackles I would like to remember that he clearly got a different job from Rodgers, in this game and maybe the upcoming ones, compared to the past. He isn't the destroyer and last one to tackle in front of defending line anymore, that's Gerrard. Lucas' job has been a different one, to cover spaces and passing option, press further up the pitch while still giving passing angles in the center.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:51:13 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2014, 08:05:05 am »
The things is though that we won the game, one which we probably would have lost one season ago so the choice of Rodgers for Lucas and Gerrard in THIS game cannot be wrong. We dominated for large parts of the game, had lots of possession and considering Southampton did park the bus with 10 men more often than not had us crumbling in the past. But we didn't here, our organisation was spot on and the basics for winning this game. I cannot see why a dip in concentration should be questioning Rodgers game plan here.


  :o

Dunno what game you were watching mate! I wouldn't say we dominated any part of that game, in fact Southampton dominated much of the second half. They certainly did not park the bus, it was one way traffic towards our goal for large chunks of the second half. They fashioned the same number of chances as us and much better quality ones I would argue.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2014, 08:08:54 am »
  :o

Dunno what game you were watching mate! I wouldn't say we dominated any part of that game, in fact Southampton dominated much of the second half. They certainly did not park the bus, it was one way traffic towards our goal for large chunks of the second half. They fashioned the same number of chances as us and much better quality ones I would argue.

I thought we dominated first half, they were sitting back for almost the entire half. They got better when our legs, especially Lucas',  got tired in the second half and Rodgers did react. I cannot see anything wrong here.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2014, 08:16:36 am »
I thought we dominated first half, they were sitting back for almost the entire half. They got better when our legs, especially Lucas',  got tired in the second half and Rodgers did react. I cannot see anything wrong here.

Agree to disagree on this one I think. Thought the first half was dead even and they were all over us second half. The difference on the day was that we were clinical and they were not. That and Mignolet made a couple of outstanding saves, one of which he had no right to make.

On the Rodgers thing, he did react eventually but like others I would like to see him be a bit more pro-active in this sense. It was obvious our formation wasn't particularly working (regardless of the score) in the first half but we watched us get torn to pieces second half and made the change after we'd already conceded. There always is a bit of a sense that Rodgers makes in-game tactical alterations or substitutions to try and sort out problems as opposed to trying to stop them happening in the first place.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2014, 08:50:14 am »
Status-Quo Bias

Is that when you favour Whatever You Want?

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2014, 09:08:42 am »
Is that when you favour Whatever You Want?
Your jokes are going down the dustpipe.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 09:13:36 am by One of those »
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2014, 09:17:30 am »
Is that when you favour Whatever You Want?
it 's contributions like this that make me stay a bit longer.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2014, 11:01:26 am »
We dogged it out... it is what we need to do now and again through the season but especially at the start!

And With the next 2 games being big ones, it was vital we got 3 points and we did it! The style will come again, but it only come with confidence, so to stay unbeaten in the next 2 games is just as important!

I realize points-wise we would be better off with Lose/Win (or vice versa) in the next 2 games but I’d rather take Draw/Draw to keep us unbeaten and build the confidence up
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2014, 11:11:56 am »
LFC Supporters Clubs were rockin all over the world.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2014, 12:01:01 pm »
LFC Supporters Clubs were rockin all over the world.
You are bringing the tone of the round table down down.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2014, 01:23:29 pm »
We dogged it out... it is what we need to do now and again through the season but especially at the start!

And With the next 2 games being big ones, it was vital we got 3 points and we did it! The style will come again, but it only come with confidence, so to stay unbeaten in the next 2 games is just as important!

I realize points-wise we would be better off with Lose/Win (or vice versa) in the next 2 games but I’d rather take Draw/Draw to keep us unbeaten and build the confidence up

I'd prefer the extra point, if anything losing our next game should make us even more determined to beat the following side.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2014, 01:29:16 pm »
Not enough here giving credit where credit was due, and that was the game Koeman gave us. He set up his young new team really well, and I suspect that was the win of the weekend in terms of strength of opposition, specifically amongst the teams in the chase for top 4. Against any of those others opposition, we would have come away with a more convincing win, and Soton may have beaten a few of the others.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2014, 01:30:11 pm »
I'd prefer the extra point, if anything losing our next game should make us even more determined to beat the following side.

In my opinion it wouldnt.... maybe later in the season but not this early
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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2014, 01:51:00 pm »
Not enough here giving credit where credit was due, and that was the game Koeman gave us. He set up his young new team really well, and I suspect that was the win of the weekend in terms of strength of opposition, specifically amongst the teams in the chase for top 4. Against any of those others opposition, we would have come away with a more convincing win, and Soton may have beaten a few of the others.

I can't agree with this. We didn't do anywhere near enough to stop Southampton playing, we dropped deep and allowed them to play, we lacked hunger to win the ball, we seemed contempt in waiting for them to hand it back to us and several of our players looked tired and laboured.

The spaces we allowed, Clyne and Ward Prowse in particular was criminal at times and it made the back fours job harder than it needed to be, I would say that many other teams would have taken advantage of our shortcomings rather than the other way round.


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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2014, 03:16:29 pm »
I think people are anachronistically projecting backwards from the period after Gerrard began successfully to occupy the '1' in a '1-2' midfield role and engaging in some revisionist history re-writing.

Brendan "flipped the triangle" (remember the thread and the jokes and funny gifs?) with Lucas used as the '1' and Allen and Henderson as the '2'. Gerrard was not available for that game.

For most of 2013, the 'problem' was not Lucas in the '1' spot, at all. Even when we used the 3 CB formation, it worked best when it was 3142 rather than 3412.

The problem was that Gerrard could not be relied upon as one of the '2' in a 1-2 midfield. Moving him to the '1' spot was not because Lucas failed in that role, not in the least.
Haven't seen many who disagree with that. Almost everyone seems to agree that it's the Lucas-Gerrard partnership that doesn't work, and Gerrard is the superior player if you have to choose between them.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: LFC 2-1 Southampton
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2014, 03:25:01 pm »
Is that when you favour Whatever You Want?


No, that is called TIND bias  :rollseyes
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