Topic: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.

[Mark Walters]

Thanks yorky, that was a great read.

On Lucas: I have to be honest and say that I just couldn't see anything in him.  He just didn't seem to have the grit for the Premiership and if there's one league where you need some steel it's this one.  He also seemed to dwell on the ball way too long, not knowing what to do with it and again, the pace of the game here just doesn't allow that. 

Of course, what we couldn't see back then were the mental attributes that all the best players need.  I've read a few player autobiographies and what all of them say is that as a young player coming into a team full of older, established stars is that it can be overwhelming.  And these are British players we're talking about.  But what all of them have (or had) is the ability to get past that with their performances on the pitch.  Lucas now appears to be showing the mental strength to put himself and his performances on the line with Masch, Gerrard, Alonso, Torres and Carra. This something he could not do last season when, in particular, Gerrard was on the field with him.  This is in much the same way that Biscan's performances were much better when Gerrard wasn't in the team.  However, Biscan could never had the mental strength to overcome his inferiority complex. You can see the players that Gerrard has confidence in: he passes to them without hesitation, doesn't shrug his shoulders and huff when their passes to him don't come off and celebrates enthusiastically with them when he/they score.  That was certainly evident with Lucas last Sunday.

There are still some things that Lucas could improve on but showing the mental strength to not let things like booing (which is unforgivable) get him down means that it will allow him to focus on his game.

On Babel: well I've said it before but his decision-making is certainly as the Ajax fans called it - questionable.  Carra mentioned something in those questions about his teammates which stuck out for me: that the Dutch players are not exactly bright! While Kuyt seems to have a natural footballing brain to know where to be, when to be there, when to pass, when to shoot, etc. to make up for his perceived lack of technical ability, Babel's the other way round - loads of technical ability but not much footballing intelligence.  It was also mentioned that Babel receives the ball then decides when he's going to do with it rather than deciding before he's received it and that is the wrong way round for a top class footballer who never has that sort of time in this league.

The question we have to ask ourselves of Babel (or the question that Rafa will eventually ask) is, will he learn through experience the things that are currently lacking in his game and the essential things that are needed for him to become a quality footballer.  I think it was Gordon Strachan that said that one piece of advice he was given as a manager was that if he had to tell a player to do something more than 3 times then he should get rid of that player as they would never learn.  Has Rafa been instructing Babel to play a certain way and has had to tell him time and time again?  I think if this is the case then it will give us the answer to whether Ryan will stay with us long term.

[cuppatea]

I scoured Ajax forums quite extensively when we signed Babel and the opinion of him was generally quite negative, while their fans were almost universal in agreement that we had heavily overpaid for him. I recall commenting on here that it was somewhat disconcerting that, while the fans on RAWK, many of whom had never seen him play, were declaring him the best youngster in world football (with comparisons to Henry, Ronaldo, Barnes etc aplenty), those who had seen him week in, week out, were far less glowing in their appraisel.

[miss_heather]

Lucas just drove past my house picking his nose

[b_joseph]

I scoured Ajax forums quite extensively when we signed Babel and the opinion of him was generally quite negative, while their fans were almost universal in agreement that we had heavily overpaid for him. I recall commenting on here that it was somewhat disconcerting that, while the fans on RAWK, many of whom had never seen him play, were declaring him the best youngster in world football (with comparisons to Henry, Ronaldo, Barnes etc aplenty), those who had seen him week in, week out, were far less glowing in their appraisel.

I think what most people were saying is that he was very raw and had a lot to learn.

The problem now is that most of our fans have forgotten about that and want to see the finished article ready and waiting to step forward.

[royhendo]

On Kily Gonzalez Mark, it was a personality clash wasn't it? Rafa said no ice cream/paella and Kily thought "piss off you fussy twat"... and then footballing differences ensued?

The players we're linked with point at incremental improvement. God how I wish we'd bagged Alves a few years back. Simao too. (Thou shalt not covat thy neighbour's wide man, but even Arteta would fit...)

[Ryan M]

Regarding this post I am not one to look at a glass half full, I see a glass half full and half empty.

To state that Lucas has developed into a compariable midfileder of Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso's class I do not agree with. Lately the young brazilian has performed to a high level, and I believe he man of the match versus Newcastle. However Lucas needs to keep this level of performance going till the end of the season, as three world class midfielders are currently competing for the two spaces in front of him, depending on Rafa's tactics. Finishing on Lucas, I do hope that he blossoms into the midfielder that we believe he can be, however a more consistent level of performance is needed.

The Babel conundrum I understand with, mentioning that he does not enjoy the defensive side of his game, which is obvious to see as he is a centre forward playing left midfield. However Rafa's teams work in units, attacking as one and defending as one. Babel needs the minutes to blossom into a dangerous player, however needs to increase his levels of consistency to earn his place. Rafa may believe that Babel stabbed him in the back by going to the Olympics, knowing this was his season to make him a star. However Ryan chose to represent his country in a "Carlsberg Cup" competition when in relation to the Euros and the World Cup, this I can consider. Mascherano and Lucas both played in the tournament and have not so far reached consistent levels of performance. This I believe is where Rafa is proved right in saying he did not want his players going to the Olmpics as it will harm them for this seasons preparation. Generally Rafa does not hold grudges and Babel was lucky not to be fined trying to auction him self to Ajax, he only has him self to blame for not getting in the Liverpool XI.

I would like to finish saying this was an enjoyable read and heres my fingers crossed hoping both players grow into mature talented footballers.

[barnseysleftpeg]

Regarding the four CMs all playing at the same time.  we saw it against the Geordies all be it with Lucas on the right hand side and he did very well however I don't see that as something we'd try on a regular basis.

Now in terms of the milan diamond system I suppose we now have the personnel to do it however I have to admit it's the one formation where I don't truly understand how it works in terms of the role of a couple of positions.

For instance Pirlo played at the bottom of the diamond so I guess that would be Alonsos position and I guess their role is to intiate attacks and be the focal point of our play.  What confuses me is the role of Gattuso/Masch and seedorf/Lucas where their positions would be the left and right side of the diamond with Gerrard/Kaka at the top.

So can someone explain the left and right sides of the diamond if you're going to play a destroyer like Masch or Gattuso there? I get Lucas as he's got the technique and short passing game to be effective anywhere as has Seedorf which he's shown for years.

[McmanaMark]

Regarding the four CMs all playing at the same time.  we saw it against the Geordies all be it with Lucas on the right hand side and he did very well however I don't see that as something we'd try on a regular basis.

Now in terms of the milan diamond system I suppose we now have the personnel to do it however I have to admit it's the one formation where I don't truly understand how it works in terms of the role of a couple of positions.

For instance Pirlo played at the bottom of the diamond so I guess that would be Alonsos position and I guess their role is to intiate attacks and be the focal point of our play.  What confuses me is the role of Gattuso/Masch and seedorf/Lucas where their positions would be the left and right side of the diamond with Gerrard/Kaka at the top.

So can someone explain the left and right sides of the diamond if you're going to play a destroyer like Masch or Gattuso there? I get Lucas as he's got the technique and short passing game to be effective anywhere as has Seedorf which he's shown for years.

I don't think it matters so much where they line up on a team sheet. In general, Masch would be the furthest dropped back, and Alonso/Lucas would be free to interchange and boss posession/tempo in the midfield. Gerrard would be given a free role.

Defending, Gerrard and the second striker (in this case, you'd imagine that would be Keane) would drop right and left respectively in order to pick up the wide men. They could also drop back centrally, with Xabi/Lucas pushing out to cover the wings. Obviously, it would take a certain system of organisation and not a little intuition during matches. I think our players are intelligent enough to work it.

The obvious weakness of this system is the over-reliance on width from full-back. Insua and Degen (if we ever see him) would be favoured, although Arbeloa has done a very underrated job of getting forward this season. In addition, it leaves us with no senior centre mid players to bring on fresh, so it's not the best from a squad rotation point of view.

The obvious strength of this system is that it leaves our two most inventive forward-running players in Gerrard and Keane with freedom to supply Torres, while three sturdy central mids control the flow of the game behind them - with one of them (you'd imagine Lucas) running forward to join the attack, and all four midfielders in general able to pick a killer pass between the lines.

It's also a system that doesn't feature Kuyt. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

[B9]

Rafa does seem to have an issue integrating thoroughbread flair players into his teams, doesn't he.

It's almost like he doesn't trust the more adventurous, less disciplined and reasonably lightweight types like Babel, Benayoun and even (despite his phenomenol workrate) Keane. And sometimes, that feels like the difference between a draw and a win.

While I dislike the generalisation of Benitez being negative, I can concede there is some grounds to the accusation. His two most gifted footballers are also two of his most robust, but outside of Gerrard and Torres, we've lacked invention for a few years.

Kuyt is about the only workmanlike attacking player rafa has signed! Maybe Crouch at a stretch. First attacking player he bought was Garcia, who is the antithesis of what you describe. He showed an uncanny amount of faith in Kewell, because he knew what he could bring to the team if he was ever fit.

I don't think rafa has a strong preference for workhorses upfield in general. It's more the fact that of the quality of the players bought so far, only Torres has been genuinely exceptional.

[4pool]

Yorkie , top thread starter.

He's another view. Which player will be here in 5 years time? Lucas or Babel?

I've always thought Lucas had the ability and would adapt. Fortunately he has. He's only going to get better.

Ryan though...

He is an enigma. He has talent. We can see that in flashes.

But, and this is imho, he needs that extra touch. And because he does, it either breaks down the attack or gets Ryan in trouble because the defense closes him down.

To often he needs to look up before passing or crossing and in the League you don't have that extra time that often to do that. When he's given it, then he has the opportunity for an assist or shot at goal.

He just hasn't been "instinctive" enough to thrive in our side in the League. In European competitions he gets more time. This is why he seems so frustrating at times. Especially when he runs into blind alleys or doesn't get rid of the ball early enough when others are breaking into the box.

People want him to be given a go as a striker in the middle. But his touch lets him down, again imho. On the wing he has but one defender to beat to get the second ball after it bounds away from him. In the middle we will lose the second ball  because there are more defenders in the area. And this will be even more frustrating if our attacks break down because of Babels lack of control in the middle.

Ryan has the ability. He needs to use it within the team strategy that is laid out by Rafa. People can compare Ryan to others within the team/squad and see he has better individual skills but it is a team game. So performance of the team is more important than individual comparisons.



However, we are top of the league and this is all nitpicking. It takes all kinds and types to make up a squad. Possibilities, no? Yet, some want perfection out of every player, first teamers and squad player alike--every match--and this just isn't possible. Although Rafa may disagree...lol

[josemisuncle]

Brilliant brilliant post Yorky, and top replies too.

There's nothing much to disagree on Lucas except on the tackling part.   My earlier impressions of him is that he is too soft, partly judged by the fact he rarely go down sliding. You coined it "nicking". However, I still fail to see the "nicking" part, or rather, his bad timing in "nicking" is alot more apparent.

Another observation i had was that he didnt "move enough" in the pass-and-move lingo. Many a time, he passed and stood still, whereas Xabi is almost always available. Add that to a seemingly fear of demanding for the ball, or even a fear of asking for it from Stevie. Some of the cameos he had when Stevie wasn't playing, he was more assertive on the game, and vice versa.

He has clearly come into his own against Newcastle. I thought he was absolutely top class. It also seemed that he should continue to make more impact and give Rafa a selection headache.

Now comes the controversial discussion on playing the 4 of them together. To debate on the suitability of their play, whether there are too many cooks, depends on the setup in the other positions.  Yorky brought up the Milan midfield 4. And it could work. BUT i would think we require full backs who would overlap very frequently. Is Arbeloa up to that in an attacking sense. Perhaps not.  Clearly now, we have so many permutations. And that has got to be good.

***
Ryan Babel. I think Mayo said it all and said it best.

Rafa is on record as saying that sliding tackles are the very last resort.  He doesn't like them as they take the tackling player out of the game and the occassions when they should be used are rare.

So I wouldn't draw the "soft" conclusion from that.

[scatman]

Excellent and informative read that Yorky. 

I totally agree on Lucas.  I've maintained all along that you could tell that the lad is a footballer, the problem was whether he would be able to adapt to the physical nature of the English game. This was always likely as it generally requires little more than some hours in the gym and a realisation that players are going to barrel into you at full pelt and the ref is just going to smile and run off. 

It seemed to be taking an age to happen though, strangely perhaps the shameful booing at Fulham was the turning point, it could have broken him but it seems that, fortunately for us, as he trudged from the field he resolved to "fuckin' show 'em". The key to that is perhaps more a refusal to be overawed by playing alongside Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano as to no longer being intimidated by the Prems midfield enforcers (that test is still to come). That is what we've seen in the last couple of games, a new confidence that he deserves to play alongside these icons, that he can demand the ball from them and that they will pass to him.

You'll doubtless be less than surprised that I disagree on Babel.  What I see there is a great athlete, a lad with pace, power and flashes of marvellous technique.  I don't think that I've really seen a footballer though. He seems to lack that inate understanding of the game that all the great players have; where to stand, where to run, when to pass, when to dribble and most of all that anticipation that you so eloquently describe in Lucas. 

I've mentioned before that perhaps he has difficulty implementing Rafa's instructions, this may be the case, but unfortunately that just seems to another sympton of the lack of game intelligence that I've mentioned above.  I don't think that it is fair to blame his poor performances on his team instructions though.  Whenever El Zhar comes on as substitute he makes the most of his, more limited, physical attributes and attacks his full backs with brio and panache. There seems little evidence of a player who has been given instructions stressing his defensive obligations at the expense of any attacking verve. I don't see why that should be any different from the instructions that Babel receives.

A great post I tend to agree with your thinking here.

Does anyone here think Babel has a low IQ?

[Stussy]

This place has some brilliant writers.

[Yorkykopite]

Thanks for replies folks. There's a lot to chew on there, but I'll pick out one or two points.

Mark Walters - agree with you completely that young players, like any workers, have to feel their way into a group containing dominant personalities. It can be hard. I don't know whether yours was an implied criticism of Gerrard's captaincy, but certainly I'd criticise it. Some of his body language is bloody awful, or at least it was. It's part of his job to fill young players with confidence. Not bitch at them when things go wrong. Having said that Lucas is clearly part of the club now. And Babel - interestingly - never got any crap from Gerrard.

Roy - Kily G: is that what happened? I didn't know that. Thought it was purely tactical. Like you though I can't fully erase the image of Simao sitting on that Liverpool-bound plane. As for Alves.....ah, better not punish ourselves.

The midfield quartet. Yes it puts a burden on the full backs, as Kev, Nocturnalalvin and others have said. It's a system that is also prone to counterattack on the flanks. PSV slaughtered Milan in the semis by committing full backs and wingers down their sides. Having said that our 4 are younger than the Milan 4 were then.

Gerromiah asked what would happen to Riera and Kuyt if we played all four. Sadly Kuyt would miss out. But Riera or Babel would be on the left. I am, of course, supposing that Gerrard would take a postion further to the right (can of worms, I know) and that Lucas would play in the Pablo Aimar role.

B9 - Rafa's faith in Harry Kewell. Great point. Kewell never repaid him, but yes, that's an important thing to remember. Rafa wanted sparkle there not mere functionality - and was willing to take a risk to get it. 
   

[ac]

Excellent and informative read that Yorky. 

I totally agree on Lucas.  I've maintained all along that you could tell that the lad is a footballer, the problem was whether he would be able to adapt to the physical nature of the English game. This was always likely as it generally requires little more than some hours in the gym and a realisation that players are going to barrel into you at full pelt and the ref is just going to smile and run off. 

It seemed to be taking an age to happen though, strangely perhaps the shameful booing at Fulham was the turning point, it could have broken him but it seems that, fortunately for us, as he trudged from the field he resolved to "fuckin' show 'em". The key to that is perhaps more a refusal to be overawed by playing alongside Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano as to no longer being intimidated by the Prems midfield enforcers (that test is still to come). That is what we've seen in the last couple of games, a new confidence that he deserves to play alongside these icons, that he can demand the ball from them and that they will pass to him.

You'll doubtless be less than surprised that I disagree on Babel.  What I see there is a great athlete, a lad with pace, power and flashes of marvellous technique.  I don't think that I've really seen a footballer though. He seems to lack that inate understanding of the game that all the great players have; where to stand, where to run, when to pass, when to dribble and most of all that anticipation that you so eloquently describe in Lucas. 

I've mentioned before that perhaps he has difficulty implementing Rafa's instructions, this may be the case, but unfortunately that just seems to another sympton of the lack of game intelligence that I've mentioned above.  I don't think that it is fair to blame his poor performances on his team instructions though.  Whenever El Zhar comes on as substitute he makes the most of his, more limited, physical attributes and attacks his full backs with brio and panache. There seems little evidence of a player who has been given instructions stressing his defensive obligations at the expense of any attacking verve. I don't see why that should be any different from the instructions that Babel receives.

 

Agreed. At his best Lucas's passing is xaviesque, reflecting an innate understanding of how to change the tempo & direction of the game. He may not have Alonso's passing range but he has proved on various occasions he's not just a water carrier, and can provide the killer pass when neccesary. However, I fear Lucas's inability to tackle, his lack of aggression and inability break up play will make him much less effective against team's that give us less space then the likes of PSV, Arsenal and Newcastle. Whereas the physical nature of the PL hasn't affected someone like Scholes from being a force, unlike the Man U player Lucas doesn't have enough of a goal threat/creativity to compensate for his physical limitations imo. Additionally, unlike Scholes or Ronnie Whelan, Lucas is not playing in a team where movement is a forte. To seriously threaten our first team Lucas either needs to develop his ability to break play up or seriously improve as a goal threat otherwise for me he will never me anything but a option in midfield.

I think Babel's best performance this season was against Marseille away where he showed the penetrative qualities our 1st team sorely lacks, pace, power, skill and unpredicatability. However, unlike Lucas and Kuyt he lacks the fundamental mental characteristics to apply his talents. He lacks aggression/mental toughness, his decision making is is often ponderous and poor and his attitude/desire is questionable. Even if he were able to apply his talents I doubt he'd reach anywhere near the heights of an Henry or Barnes on account of his average basic technical level and limited football intelligence.

IMO of the two Lucas has a much better chance of developing a career here.

[fowlermagic]

I would have loved to have seen the opinions on here a few months ago when Babel was ripping Chelsea & Utd apart while Lucas was looking a lost soul. A great game against relegation fodder like Newcastle and the tide has turned on the opinions. Guess it shows how fickle the couch fans can be.

[Rawky Arbeloa]

This was a 19-year-old they were talking about! But probably most Reds reading those fantastic enconiums also felt a blast of disbelief that it was wind-swept Liverpool - not Real, not Barca, not Benfica, not Milan (sun-kissed, the lot of ‘em) - who were going to land the best young Brazilian to emerge since Kaka.

Very well written, mate.
And an interesting thread.

What is 'enconiums' though?
I have never come across the word in my life!

I’m not a spiritual bloke but in these past few games I swear it’s been possible to squint at the field and see the ghost of young Ronnie Whelan on the lad’s shoulder.

   

Players are starting to look for Lucas. And he really wants the ball. I hope, I pray, that he doesn’t become cloistered when he next treads the turf at Anfield.

Apparent contradiction? 

[Yorkykopite]

Good textual reading Rawky. Guilty as charged.

[redtel]

An excellent thread leading on from Yorky's great starter.

I think the Lucas part has been summed up very well, and that he has the class to become a great player for us.

Babel has given posters a headache in how to describe his play.

Ranging from lacks confidence,football intelligence,poor first touch, doesn't enjoy the defensive side of the game, playing out of position, needs a run of games and several others.

We can see how he has power, pace and has scored some good goals, but he appears to be going backwards this season.

One thing we don't see is how he performs in training. Rafa does, and the fact that he doesn't start many games indicates to me that he may show faults in training that deters Rafa from starting him.

As we have specific plans for each team we play, the training will be a testing ground for how players adapt to their role.If Babel does lack the football know how of some others in the squad this is where it will show up if he is asked to perform a certain task.

I really hope he can come through and play well for us. You don't get to play for Holland if you are a poor player.

[Pr0n]

Great read, yorky.. Been off for a while, too much to do to check in regularly but 1. I'm really glad that Lucas is starting to show what I saw him do (more or less) in Gremio and 2. Babel, as much as he's an enigma, I agree with many in here that the main problem is in his head.

I don't think it is that he does'nt understand what to do - he's shown, on several occasions that he can combine his strengths to great effect, wheter it's a packed defence or not. I think it's more that he's heavily influenced by mood (in effect: circumstance), because he's always looking like an alibi-player when not playing well (tracking back, but not making his best effort, going forward looking uninspired, hesitant). Bad decision-making, a touch too many e.t.c. seems to cohere with the mood of the player. In that sense, Babel is not at all a Rafa player, and I said a long time ago when we were talking about the L3 thread and judging player qualities, that the reason for Rafa acquiring Babel was that he saw a player with cutting-edge qualities, and also that the player was willing to learn. The cutting-edge qualities will no doubt manifest themselves again.

My guess is also, that the decision to mostly play Babel on either flank is a decision taken with Babel's own development in mind - it is a position where he will get more involved directly in game movements and off the ball (defensive) movements than if he'd played as a striker from the start - which will make him more conscious about those issues and should contribute to improve the player's game-awareness and decision-making.

The question is, will Babel have the patience, will Rafa have the patience and will Babel develop his game/self-esteem/self-awareness up until the point that he's less dependant on mood to perform? When it comes to Rafa - he's shown a lot of patience with f.i. Yossi, who has left a lot to be desired at times.. Due to the nature of mood and the mind itself, It's extremely hard to predict the contingencies that would change the current situation with Babel. Maybe someone have a good idea about Babel - the person?

Obviously the problem with the question of play or not to play Babel is - a Babel in form (in mood) can win/change a game on his own, while a Babel out of form (not in the mood) can be outright detrimental to our team-play (that has been particularly clear at times when he's come on as a sub this season).

[Mark Walters]

Thanks for replies folks. There's a lot to chew on there, but I'll pick out one or two points.

Mark Walters - agree with you completely that young players, like any workers, have to feel their way into a group containing dominant personalities. It can be hard. I don't know whether yours was an implied criticism of Gerrard's captaincy, but certainly I'd criticise it. Some of his body language is bloody awful, or at least it was. It's part of his job to fill young players with confidence. Not bitch at them when things go wrong. Having said that Lucas is clearly part of the club now. And Babel - interestingly - never got any crap from Gerrard.    

I wasn't necessarily implying that about Gerrard's captaincy, but as you say it can be disheartening for a young player.  I can't imagine anyone giving Babel any crap.  He could crush Stevie with those magnificent thighs!

People want him to be given a go as a striker in the middle. But his touch lets him down, again imho. On the wing he has but one defender to beat to get the second ball after it bounds away from him. In the middle we will lose the second ball  because there are more defenders in the area. And this will be even more frustrating if our attacks break down because of Babels lack of control in the middle.

I actually think that playing him up top where he has less to think about would be better. Sure, there are occasions where he'd lose the ball but there would only be 2 things to worry about: controlling the ball and shooting.  Both are instincitive so he wouldn't have to worry about looking up to see where his team mates are or deciding whether he's going to pass or dribble. Of course, if you're looking for someone to hold up the ball or be a target man like, for example, Heskey then he's completely the wrong choice.  If you're looking for a Torres type striker then great - except he has to get past Torres first which is mission impossible.

[Art Vandelay]

I've always seen something in Lucas, and was very hopeful he'd become a very important player for us....however whilst I knew he had quality I wasn't absolutely sure he would make it here (for several reasons) and though there has been a wild swing from negative to positive feelings about Lucas recently it's wise to remember he hasn't made it yet, and I hope that when he inevitably puts in some poor performances the mood won't lurch back to one where he becomes the focal point of denigration.

I've never been sold on Babel, and despite wanting him to become the 'next John Barnes' (not in ability as he's clearly nowhere near, but more in terms of adding a different dimension to the side as Digger did)  I just feel he's lacking in certain areas.  Whether he is able to improve these areas I don't know....I hope so, but I fear not.

[Pr0n]

I actually think that playing him up top where he has less to think about would be better. Sure, there are occasions where he'd lose the ball but there would only be 2 things to worry about: controlling the ball and shooting.  Both are instincitive so he wouldn't have to worry about looking up to see where his team mates are or deciding whether he's going to pass or dribble. Of course, if you're looking for someone to hold up the ball or be a target man like, for example, Heskey then he's completely the wrong choice.  If you're looking for a Torres type striker then great - except he has to get past Torres first which is mission impossible.

I disagree in the sense that it's not at all less to think about as a striker, it's just that it's easier to disregard/forget about important issues re: team-play as a striker. Remember Cissé? Babel will play regularly as a striker when Rafa thinks he's developed his awareness/decision-making enough... IMO.

[SteveZissou]

Excellent post York. 

Though, it might have been better focussed if you placed the analysis of Lucas and Babel in separate threads.  In any case I saw what you was doing and particularly enjoyed your description on the rise of Lucas.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

i think a lot of people really misread what happened this and last season.

he was never gonna be given loads of games last season although in most he did play well last season.
the 3 eyecatchers were away at chelsea in the carling cup (which i rate as his best performance to date)
away at newcastle when we won 3-0...seriously dont think he put a foot wrong all game...won everything and set up countless counter attacks.
away at everton for 15 minutes..changed the game by playing simple quick short passes.

also in the everton game 3 times players tried to rough him up and 3 times they were sent packing....this told me he was easily ready physically at least combat wise.and lets be fair the only time he has been snet flying is when he has been off balance or when he has played for the freekick.
as for giving it you all saw for your own eyes what he nearly did to madrid bound diarra of portsmouth.i thought he was gonna wipe him out ...

my ony doubt was whether he could cope stamina wise with the demands of our game.

well we saw oxing day he lasted the full gae and defo improved stamina from the psv game where he started to tire near the end.

id say by next season he will be spot on

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

opps frgot to add this season.

went to the olympics obviousy jetlagged like mascher who also suffered a dip in form at the same time.
then got a call up for brazil

he had a very hetic start to the season travel wise.

its no suprise it took him a few games to get back in the swing of things.
and even then he still didnt play badly imo.

mptm in the portsmouth game and was easily one of our better players against fulham

[SteveZissou]

Mascherano is one of my favourite players, but I believe we are a better passing side with Lucas and Alonso in the middle and Gerrard supporting the striker or on the right.  It's difficult to leave anyone out but Rafa will base his selections as usual on the opposition.  So if we need a better tackler in the middle then Masch is the man which either means Alonso plays ahead of Lucas OR Gerrard moves to a wide position.  I think Lucas will benefit going forward because (like the Newcastle game) the opposition keeps close tabs on Stevie and this gives Lucas more space allowing him to get into good positions as he did against Toon.  All he needs to do now is finish off some of these chances he's been getting.  With this selection issue (similar to the issue in defence which is great to have) it means we do not need Barry.  The Villa midfielder can be useful but we already have a wide range of options in central midfield and it seems to be working.  Lucas can only get better as the season progresses.

[Gnurglan]

Two players that still have something to prove.

Lucas has had a couple of good games lately, but to be honest, I am yet to be fully convinced. Lucas faces tough competition and it's hard to see how he can make it past Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano. For a 4th pick CM, perhaps we should go with Plessis or Spearing instead?

Babel was great toward the end of last season, but has lost his LM slot to Riera. Rightly so. Hope he can get his act together, because his pace and shot are real assets.

[Cadno]

Two players that still have something to prove.

Lucas has had a couple of good games lately, but to be honest, I am yet to be fully convinced. Lucas faces tough competition and it's hard to see how he can make it past Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano. For a 4th pick CM, perhaps we should go with Plessis or Spearing instead?

Babel was great toward the end of last season, but has lost his LM slot to Riera. Rightly so. Hope he can get his act together, because his pace and shot are real assets.

Why would we play players who are far below Lucas level as 4th choice .  Spearing and Plessis are no where near lucas in ability or potential and neither will ever challenge Alonso, Masch or Gerrard.  Lucas on the other hand is quickly showing that he can play alongside Alonso or Masch to a high level and I firmly believe that he has a chance of taking Alonso's place in the team if Alonso goes back to the plaer of teh past couple of seasons.

[spider-neil]

A great post I tend to agree with your thinking here.

Does anyone here think Babel has a low IQ?

utterly irrelavent. you could be as thick as cheese and be a great player or a genius (academically) and be rubbish at football.

[fowlermagic]

Two players that still have something to prove.

Lucas has had a couple of good games lately, but to be honest, I am yet to be fully convinced. Lucas faces tough competition and it's hard to see how he can make it past Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano. For a 4th pick CM, perhaps we should go with Plessis or Spearing instead?

Babel was great toward the end of last season, but has lost his LM slot to Riera. Rightly so. Hope he can get his act together, because his pace and shot are real assets.

Well put Gnurglan as I struggle to see how Lucas will ever get regular starts ahead of Alonso, Mascherano and SG. The lad is best suited for the hole beteen CM and Torres as that is where his talents will shine the best but him or SG? No contest and anyone that wants to play all 4 regularly is kidding themselves .....4 CMs in our lineup should occur as often as rednose should get addressed Sir.

Babel on the otherhand just has the likes of Riera as competition so should get more chance to shine. As I said before we could have started a thread several months ago on "What Babel brings to the team...wheres Lucas?" . Funny old game...football and it's fan's opinions. I still remember the few games we had this season that was crying out for a quick creative force to come on and while its great to just review Lucas on his one or two excellent games recently, the big picture demands a Babel or his future similar replacement to come on when we are chasing games rather than a central midfielder.

[spider-neil]

the long and the short of it is how much ryan wants it, the only thing holding him back is desire.

[SteveZissou]

Even though its highly unlikely to see all 4 on the pitch at the same time, don't rule it out happening for the odd tactical surprise.  After all there are many similarities between Liverpool and Milan and they were another team packed with central midfielders... I think for the games where this can happen can be as follows:

We would obviously change the formation as we did once or twice with Lucas playing more on the left.  So in this case he's either a left midfield player OR we play three central midfielders in a 4-3-3 with Gerrard wide right or left... as I said I can't see this happening but don't rule it out for either a surprise start OR a surprise tactic toward the end of a game

[slickman]

Despite babel not progressing as much as we hoped , i would be dissapointed if we let him go i just have this  hope inside that he can go onto become a quality player and if we sold him theirs always a chance he could blossom somewhere else, i think rafa will hang on to him to see if he can fufill his potential he's not the type of player you can just let go without dwelling on it.

[Fat Scouser]

Remember the "Oh fuckinell No. It's that gobshite again" look that Gerrard gave Carra in one game when Lucas was brought on.
That done it for me. I had no opinion at the time really cos I hadn't seen enough of Lucas. But I was thoroughly pissed off with that, especially from the kid's captain. So, I started to defend him like fuck, everytime I heard/read him being slagged. And that was a lot. Eventually though, I had to give in and I started to doubt the lad meself. But I am now more than made up that he has proved me wrong. And hopefully the kid can go on to be a great for us oneday.
As for the encouragement bit, I think Rafa will have always gave him this. But after the West Ham fiasco, I can confidently say I reckon Rafa has treated the lad like a favourite son.

As for Babel? I suppose only time will tell.

[Hazell]

Remember the "Oh fuckinell No. It's that gobshite again" look that Gerrard gave Carra in one game when Lucas was brought on.
That done it for me. I had no opinion at the time really cos I hadn't seen enough of Lucas. But I was thoroughly pissed off with that, especially from the kid's captain. So, I started to defend him like fuck, everytime I heard/read him being slagged. And that was a lot. Eventually though, I had to give in and I started to doubt the lad meself. But I am now more than made up that he has proved me wrong. And hopefully the kid can go on to be a great for us oneday.
As for the encouragement bit, I think Rafa will have always gave him this. But after the West Ham fiasco, I can confidently say I reckon Rafa has treated the lad like a favourite son.

As for Babel? I suppose only time will tell.

When was this? Will be genuinely dissapointed in Gerrard if true.

[b_joseph]

mptm in the portsmouth game and was easily one of our better players against fulham

Lets not go too far, eh
That game was his valley and since then, he has been traveling towards his peak.

[Art Vandelay]

When was this? Will be genuinely dissapointed in Gerrard if true.

Away at West Ham.

[Fat Scouser]

When was this? Will be genuinely dissapointed in Gerrard if true.

He actually done it a couple of times. But the one to Carra, I forget the game was a disgrace. Just as disapointing was Carra's expression and how he turned away.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

anyone yet spotted how lucas has a much bigger influence on our resukts??
and can you spot why this is??