Author Topic: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.  (Read 44056 times)

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #200 on: February 21, 2009, 12:26:03 pm »
On the contrary, i am actually glad he has come out to say something like this.  But as usual, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #201 on: February 26, 2009, 08:06:06 am »
http://www.marca.com/2009/02/24/futbol/liga_campeones/1235506108.html

Google translate version...

Quote
LUCAS GERRARD COULD DO THIS IF YOU DO NOT PLAY

The wildcard Benítez
"If I had the opportunity to play that game, there is no doubt that it would be a key moment for me, but more importantly, the team with a good result," he told MARCA.
DAVID RUIZ - Liverpool 24/02/09 - 21:08.


Lucas Pezzini Leiva, one of the last diamond emerged from the endless pool of Gremio Porto Alegre. Midfielder of great tour, with an elegant and impeccable technique, the nephew of former rojiblanco Leivinha luxury is a wildcard in the most powerful team Rafa Benitez.

The technician madrileño no doubt pull the Brazilian international rotates each time you fly to their central (Xabi Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard). Specifically, the physical problems of the master 'red' could open the door to Lucas of title to the Bernabeu, a coliseum that of Mato Grosso has not even stepped on.

"If I had the opportunity to play that game, there is no doubt that it would be a key moment for me, but more importantly, the team with a good result regardless of who plays. Always working to enter the computer. Me Rafa has many opportunities, because this year I have played over 20 games (25) and I always try to reciprocate. We must wait and see what happens and Mister I have decided to go try to help the most that I can team, "Lucas drew a BRAND not hesitate to recognize how important it would be for Liverpool to recover in time to captain and his banner.

"Over the past few years has shown that it is a cornerstone, but the most important of Liverpool. It is our master and its quality shows in every game, plus many goals mark. He is a player who can change the fate of a a duel with his, so the fact that a party may be at this level will be very good for us. "

Rubicund The wheel of the 'canarinha' describes how Melwood has lived in these days before the first shock compared with those of Juande. "Everybody is waiting anxiously, mainly Spanish players. The importance of play in your country and to eliminate a team as big as Real Madrid made it a very special game for them. But it will be very complicated because They will come with a lot of confidence after winning nine games followed, which is tremendous. We are going to come out strong and try to achieve a good result that allows them to be quiet at Anfield. "

Banned neglected
To avoid this, Benitez, as in the usual, preparing them thoroughly. "Rafa always talks about the importance of taking care of every detail so that we are not escape the control of the game. Clearly it is compared to Madrid where such meetings can not overlook anything, however small or insignificant it may seem. Always study the strengths and less strong rivals and the things that we have to improve so that we do not rival the damage. It is clear that we will try to explore these weaknesses, which would obviously not going to say "( laughs).

Of all the advice received, there is a priority for Benitez that pupils have recorded a blood and fire in their heads. "Dial in the Bernabeu. The rules of the UEFA gives a double value to the goals away and that is a big advantage for whoever does it, because it may be key to deciding the second match, but does not make mistakes and play highly concentrated chance because if they give, they will take, "says Lucas that one could see the faces with a colleague and friend of the 'Seleçao': Marcelo.

"It would be nice, it's true. I talked to him yet, but certainly I will try to contact you before the game to see if any information you bag (laughs) ... And also to wish you good luck. It's always nice to meet friends this type of games. I played with him at the Olympics and the selection greater. It is a great guy and I am glad to see him lately things are going well, "ends.

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #202 on: February 26, 2009, 08:53:55 am »
I think I understand Sabu better.

Offline scatman

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #203 on: February 26, 2009, 09:08:22 am »
bloody hell, need a proper translation
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

royhendo

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #204 on: April 24, 2009, 09:11:32 am »
Reckon Rafa's released remarks regarding Ryan's rotential ravailability? Or is it just coming from the Babel camp?

Either way, I reckon he's outta here in the summer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/liverpool/5212120/Liverpools-Ryan-Babel-running-out-of-time-to-prove-worth.html

Quote
Liverpool's Ryan Babel running out of time to prove worth

Liverpool's forgotten man Ryan Babel insists youth will no longer be an excuse if he once again flops at Anfield next season.
 
By Telegraph staff and agencies

The winger, who can also play as a central striker, has made just six league starts in his second campaign on Merseyside, following an £11.5 million move from Ajax in summer 2007.

Babel was hailed as potentially the next Thierry Henry upon his arrival in the Premier League, but the promise shown in glimpses during his debut season has not developed into anything more substantial.

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez signed Albert Riera last summer to fill the left-wing berth that Babel had failed to make his own, and the Dutchman admits he is fast running out of time to prove his worth.

"In December I'll be 23. When you reach that age, then in my eyes you aren't a potential talent any more," Babel said.

"Next season age isn't an excuse any more, and that's an excuse trainers use too often, saying 'You're young and you have the time'.

"My goal this season was to progress to a higher level and be in the starting line-up. But they brought in another left forward in the summer and he's been playing regularly.

"But I have patience and I know that I have to work hard and I have to show the manager that I am ready and have earned the right to be picked." 

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #205 on: May 1, 2009, 01:54:26 pm »
Reckon Rafa's released remarks regarding Ryan's rotential ravailability? Or is it just coming from the Babel camp?

Either way, I reckon he's outta here in the summer.


i think he has ran out of time. Rafa has proven to be ruthless in shipping players out. Ryan has shown great promise in his first season, but this season he has gone downhill, both in attitude and application.  I am still getting the feel that football is not his first love. Its like a job for him.  Would be quite glad to see him leave and play at a level more suited for him.

Offline rednich85

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #206 on: July 30, 2009, 09:43:17 pm »
So, here we are....

If reports are to be believed, the eve of Alonso's departure. A massive loss, no doubt. If McNulty and Freamon are natural Po-lice, our Xabi is a natural ar-tiste. Now I caught big Jan, in the twilight of his career, he was more 'big' than anything else. Listening to people talking about Molbys ability to run games, manipulate the ball before putting it on a sixpence, then watching Senor Alonso do it, week in, week out has been a privilege.

At 24, I suppose having a 'fav player' is a bit like putting posters of your heroes on your wall. (Imagine the missus, coming into the boudoir for the best 4, maybe 4 and a half minutes of her life, to be confronted by the snarling Skrtel or the spotty Dagger).  If I 'done' favourite players, it would be Alonso. Now he had a few seasons where he wasn't at his best, but last season, we had a gem. Not just on the field, but off it, Xabi was a 'Liverpool player'. The celebrations after Peter Crouchs' goal in the European Cup will be my parting memory, you can stick your 60 yard goals. Its not often you see that side of a footballer. Granted, the whole 'transfer request' issue has tarnished his good name in the eyes of some, but I'll not go into that.

This is about Lucas Leiva. Our young Brazilian. Boo'd by sections of the Anfield faithful, moaned at when getting ready to go on the pitch......some fans wonder why we couldn't put away the likes of Stoke/West Ham et all??

The very fact the boy is still here, is enough to convince me, he is made of the right stuff. The Wigan penalty, the derby sending off, coming not too far apart, were all too much for some 'fans'. Now the game is full of opinions, I know reds who think its a disgrace he's a liverpool player, but I have rarely met one who had a good word about him.

From the off, I'll say, Lucas is not Alonso. Never will be. However, he could be more valuable. Now whilst we list the names of players who could come in, I'd be happy with a youngster or two, for depth reasons. With Lucas in Xabi's role alongside Mascherano, I believe we are a more mobile and versatile unit. Can pick a pass, reads the game very well, which means he rarely needs to make a tackle (Thank christ for that because lets face it, its not his strong point, but something that can be learnt, reading the game however, can't, without years of experience)

I rate the boy, I really do. When I'm in the boozer I keep it to myself, amidst all the "Lucas you're a disgrace" I keep my gob shut, simply because you can't reason with someone who's one and only argument is 'he's shite'.

I've said it on here, many a time, the boy has a bright future. I did at one point question, if it would be with Liverpool or not.

The ball is in you're court Lucas, lad

Step up

Make yourself a hero
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #207 on: July 30, 2009, 11:22:25 pm »
So, here we are....

I agree with all of that.

Except for the bit about keeping quiet in the boozer. Man up, bitch.

Offline rednich85

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #208 on: July 30, 2009, 11:26:57 pm »
I agree with all of that.

Except for the bit about keeping quiet in the boozer. Man up, bitch.

Noted
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Offline TheoRacle

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #209 on: July 31, 2009, 12:52:43 am »
A good run of a few games where he plays well could be all the catalyst he needs to really shine.

I'm looking forward to seeing Lucas playing with confidence, the crowd fully behind him. A nice early goal for him this season will do wonders I reckon..

Offline MBL?

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #210 on: July 31, 2009, 03:30:58 am »
Great post Rednich.


Offline killer-heels

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #211 on: July 31, 2009, 05:14:02 pm »
I like Lucas but he has a hell of a long way to go to become as valuable as Xabi Alonso and I wouldnt have much confidence in our midfield if he was seen as first choice for the whole of the next season.

For Lucas to get anywhere near the level we need in that position he will basically need a confidence transplant. At the moment he doesnt seem to put enough conviction into anything he does, whether that be a pass, run, tackle or shot on goal.

Both he and Babel have alot to prove.

Offline Phil M

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #212 on: July 31, 2009, 05:26:08 pm »
At the moment he doesnt seem to put enough conviction into anything he does, whether that be a pass, run, tackle or shot on goal.

"At the moment"?

He ended the season well last season. Give the lad a chance, I second what rednich posted
he will come good.
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Offline rednich85

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #213 on: July 31, 2009, 05:29:25 pm »
For Lucas to get anywhere near the level we need in that position he will basically need a confidence transplant. At the moment he doesnt seem to put enough conviction into anything he does, whether that be a pass, run, tackle or shot on goal.

I wonder why the boy would have no confidence?

Anyway, its moot.

If anything, he's shown he has supreme confidence in his own ability. After the way he was treated by some "Fans" *spit*, lesser players, or even men would have wilted.

Could have asked to leave, but he got his head down and improved. I've seen enough that I am confident he will step up this season.

I'm genuinely excited about what he can do for us.
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Offline xabi14

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #214 on: July 31, 2009, 05:30:52 pm »
"At the moment"?

He ended the season well last season. Give the lad a chance, I second what rednich posted
he will come good.

The West Brom game is a case in point, looked far more confident and competent when around the edge of the box, and that shift from foot-to-foot to get a shot away was excellent. Don't tell me that was a nothing game either, because they'd just had a goal dissalowed and were looking up for it, oh yeah and two of our own players had a bit of handbags; you don't see that in 'nothing' games.

Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #215 on: July 31, 2009, 05:34:43 pm »
"At the moment"?

He ended the season well last season. Give the lad a chance, I second what rednich posted
he will come good.

I think it's fair to say he has had a lot of playing time though... I've said many times myself that Lucas just doesn't seem to have the confidence in his game and that's a problem. For him to make the step up to regular first team football, let alone step up to filling in Xabi's boots, he really needs to make the mental leap forward as well.

The other day I used the example of Xabi, Sissoko and Mascherano as young players (all 22/23 years old at most when the started playing regularly in our first team... so Lucas' age) who clearly had the confidence to play alongside top players like Gerrard, Hamann and Xabi (when Sissoko and Mascherano came in). Lucas finds himself alongside 3 world class midfielders... so it's natural he doesn't see himself as their equal, but I do think he needs to get that confidence (even if it may be slightly misplaced or even bordering on over confidence) in order to be a regular player for us.

At the moment, he's too tentative, sometimes too safe...at times he breaks away from his mental shackles and you see him make a brilliant run forward, or go for the killer through ball which comes off.

Him taking the next step will come from more experience I think. But then it's a question of if we can afford to give him the experience at this stage, or if we really need to get in a new first team CM and leave Lucas where he is- as the 3rd choice.
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Offline the_prodigal_s0n

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #216 on: July 31, 2009, 05:36:05 pm »
If Alonso leaves, it will almost certainly be Lucas who takes over his 'role', at least at the start of the season. He's nowhere near Alonso's level yet, but he has a few things in his locker that will help. He always looks to release the ball quickly, which is obviously useful when building up attacks, and his short passing is very good. He needs to attempt more (improve?) his long passes though if he is to be a success in that position this season IMO.

The duty doesn't just pass to Lucas if Alonso leaves though. The whole defence needs to step up. If Xabi leaves, Agger will be crucial to our set up. I hope he is the first choice centre back if the inevitable happens. I'm actually happy about Skrtel's injury at the moment as it gives Dani a chance to properly establish himself. On top of Agger needing more playing time, Skrtel really needs to step up his 'playmaking' skills. He looks like he has the potential to be a decent centre half attacking wise, but he needs to prove it this season.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2009, 12:43:13 am by the_prodigal_s0n »

Offline thom

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #217 on: July 31, 2009, 05:41:35 pm »
let's hope that the upcoming season will be his breakthrough, would be the perfect timing.

Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #218 on: July 31, 2009, 05:43:25 pm »
I think Mascherano will take over Alonso's role of picking the ball out from the defenders who are sometimes too prone to the long pass that's going to hit the target 25% of the time. The other CM will then provide the support to the attackers and hopefully get involved with the attack more directly. Lucas might be the latter type, but I'd hope to see another CM come in to be honest. I wouldn't mind seeing Lucas be the regular CM, but I think it might just be a bit too risky.

And Lucas doesn't need to improve his long passing because he's more mobile than Alonso- he's more likely to drive through the midfield dribbling his way into attack. Xabi couldn't do that, but his long passes (especially the switch to the winger/full back on the far flank) made up for it. Both open up attacking space and utilise it.

“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

Offline killer-heels

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #219 on: July 31, 2009, 05:45:49 pm »

And Lucas doesn't need to improve his long passing because he's more mobile than Alonso- he's more likely to drive through the midfield dribbling his way into attack. Xabi couldn't do that, but his long passes (especially the switch to the winger/full back on the far flank) made up for it. Both open up attacking space and utilise it.

I think thats another aspect that we will lose from our game. Now that we have Johnson, we have someone who can genuinely get to the byline at pace. Alonso would have someone now to hit with his long passes just behind the defence, something he wasnt able to do much as we were lacking in pace down both sides.

Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #220 on: July 31, 2009, 05:50:45 pm »
Yeah that was definitely something I was looking forward to seeing. Xabi's always looking for that ball- and always goes for it (it's probably the ball that brings down his pass stats as well actually, because if he didn't try that ball as much as he does, his accuracy would be way higher). When they come off- quite often they do- you've got loads of time and space in a very dangerous area for the opponent.

Johnson getting on the end of those passes with his ability on the ball would have been a great feature of our title win. As it happens, Lucas, Gerrard, Mascherano and this new CM won't be bad at long passes, so hopefully it's a weapon we don't lose. I'm sure Rafa will tell the CMs to look for that ball- because in Johnson at least (and hopefully Insua) you've got 2 fullbacks who'll always look for those balls and thrive off them.

“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

Offline killer-heels

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #221 on: July 31, 2009, 05:54:03 pm »
He tries that pass countless times on the right and most of the times both Kuyt and Arbeloa struggle to get to it. Probably a combination of a lack of pace and the fact that running down that side isnt the first thing that pops into either players heads.

Johnson is different as thats usually always his first thought so I think that would have been another aspect to our game. Hopefully whoever replaces him, be it Lucas or anyone else at least has that vision to see and pick out that pass at the same time, which is why although we cant really replace Alonso, we should look for someone who does have these similar qualities, rather than someone who is completely different.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 05:56:19 pm by killer_heels »

Offline the_prodigal_s0n

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #222 on: July 31, 2009, 05:55:04 pm »
And Lucas doesn't need to improve his long passing because he's more mobile than Alonso- he's more likely to drive through the midfield dribbling his way into attack. Xabi couldn't do that, but his long passes (especially the switch to the winger/full back on the far flank) made up for it. Both open up attacking space and utilise it.


I really do think Lucas needs to hit long passes with more frequency. He breaks forward a lot more than Alonso, but running with the ball obviously isn't as pacey as playing a pass forward. Losing that extra few seconds building up attacks could be crucial, and over the course of the season the points that are lost due to it could be the difference between the title and second place. Besides, Masch has breaks forward a bit, so we need Lucas to be able to offer us something different to what Masch can.

I agree with you though that I wouldn't mind seeing Lucas become the first choice midfielder, though I'd prefer someone else to come in and Lucas to be backup (admittedly with a bit more playing time than last season).

Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #223 on: July 31, 2009, 06:06:22 pm »
He tries that pass countless times on the right and most of the times both Kuyt and Arbeloa struggle to get to it. Probably a combination of a lack of pace and the fact that running down that side isnt the first thing that pops into either players heads.

Johnson is different as thats usually always his first thought so I think that would have been another aspect to our game. Hopefully whoever replaces him, be it Lucas or anyone else at least has that vision to see and pick out that pass at the same time, which is why although we cant really replace Alonso, we should look for someone who does have these similar qualities, rather than someone who is completely different.

Yeah, I think in 'replacing Xabi' we're looking at 2 players to take up the slack. Mascherano will need to make himself available to the defenders more (and I'm sure if we do go 4-3-3, you'll see one of the wide CMs dropping deeper too... just like Xavi does for Barca) and one of the other CMs will need to look to get the attacking football going. The advantage we'd have, is that, theoretically at least, we could do better this way. If the other CM who's taking up Xabi's attacking role is a CM who can also readily get involved with the attack, then we've improved on what we had.

The onus of keeping possession will be falling to all CMs and the wide forwards- like it does with Barca. Which is why I'm a bit apprehensive about Kuyt. He always had Xabi as an out ball- be it directly or indirectly (by which I mean he had Arbeloa who directly had Xabi on call to shove the ball to). That's the area which will be most interesting to see post-Xabi. The right side in front of the defence.

I really do think Lucas needs to hit long passes with more frequency. He breaks forward a lot more than Alonso, but running with the ball obviously isn't as pacey as playing a pass forward. Losing that extra few seconds building up attacks could be crucial, and over the course of the season the points that are lost due to it could be the difference between the title and second place. Besides, Masch has breaks forward a bit, so we need Lucas to be able to offer us something different to what Masch can.

I agree with you though that I wouldn't mind seeing Lucas become the first choice midfielder, though I'd prefer someone else to come in and Lucas to be backup (admittedly with a bit more playing time than last season).

My first choice at the moment, would actually be Aurelio stepping in, with 3 CMs- Mascherano in the middle, Gerrard and Aurelio either side playing narrow and getting directly into supporting the attackers. In that instance, you've got a CM who's always looking to get into the attack in Gerrard, and another who's hanging back and getting the play ticking over in Aurelio. It's sort of like Barca's middle 3- Toure's anchoring midfield (like Mascherano would... only better), Xavi's dropping deep and getting forward whilst making sure the possession's not clogging up (like Aurelio would do it) and Iniesta does the same as Xavi but gets involved with the attack more readily- into shooting positions, looks for the through balls etc (like Gerrard).

There will be subtle changes in the current roles of our players, but I think that after they get used to the system (which shouldn't take too long hopefully- we've used it at times in proper matches and I'm sure in training) it'll be a very successful system.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #224 on: July 31, 2009, 06:06:44 pm »
He should be first from the season start with someone in his range of abilities as a direct competition for the spot brought in.
Simple, both young, hungry and with a decent chance to prove themselves.
Looking forward to seeing more of Lucas.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #225 on: July 31, 2009, 06:10:41 pm »
I dunno about that 4-3-3. Barcelona seem to play more possession football as they all move forward as one through short passing and seem more fluid.

We are more direct and rigid and almost say that we will get the ball in the dangerous area and Torres and Gerrard can then do their thing. By losing an attacker from the forward area by moving Gerrard a bit more back, I think we will lose out.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 06:12:21 pm by killer_heels »

Offline the_prodigal_s0n

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #226 on: July 31, 2009, 06:17:14 pm »
I dunno about that 4-3-3. Barcelona seem to play more possession football as they all move forward as one through short passing and seem more fluid.

We are more direct and rigid and almost say that we will get the ball in the dangerous area and Torres and Gerrard can then do their thing. By losing an attacker from the forward area by moving Gerrard a bit more back, I think we will lose out.
Yeah, I don't mind 4-3-3 being used sparingly, but as our main formation it's a bad idea. Gerrard would have to be moved back (unless it was a 4-2-1-3, in which case it'd pretty much be the same as last year) and in doing so, we'd probably lose on average 10 goals a year from him. He'd likely go from being a potential 20-30 goal player to a 10-20 goal player IMO. It'd be extremely difficult to find those goals from elsewhere. It's best to keep the Torres-Gerrard partnership as it is.

Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #227 on: July 31, 2009, 06:29:51 pm »
It might be hard to see working compared to Barca's system... but then I think it might just be the best way to go- Lucas and Masch in a 4-2-3-1 I can't see working well really. Even Gerrard and Masch as the 2.

I just think it's a system Rafa's tending towards... he's got his own ideas of how might work and how our players fit into it. If Xabi goes as is looking likely, then I believe Rafa'll take the club forward still. And if we end up keeping Xabi and the 4-2-3-1, I reckon we're league favourites- and that's a view I expect to be shared by the neutrals as well.

I prefer it if Xabi stayed but don't mind if he does go now as it could be an opportunity to progress further. I read someone saying it might be 1 step back and 2 steps forward... which I sort of agree with. The only problem is the length of time it takes for the 2 steps forward because when/if Xabi goes, we're definitely significantly weakened.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #228 on: July 31, 2009, 06:38:25 pm »
I really do think Lucas needs to hit long passes with more frequency. He breaks forward a lot more than Alonso, but running with the ball obviously isn't as pacey as playing a pass forward. Losing that extra few seconds building up attacks could be crucial

He may need to vary his game more, sure, but I can't agree that running with the ball isn't as "pacey" as hitting a long pass. In fact hitting a long pass, unless it's a defence splitting one, can slow the game down if the receiver - as usually happens - is isolated. There's nothing quicker than running with the ball if it is combined - as it is with Lucas - with short passing. After all Barca, the quickest team in the world, are stingy when it comes to hitting long balls. They overdose, however, when it comes to running with the ball directly at opponents and passing short.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #229 on: July 31, 2009, 06:50:51 pm »
So, here we are....

Great post. Agree with everything, particularly the reading of the game part.

If Alonso goes, we'll be a central midfielder short, but I reckon Lucas will have a fruitful season if he gets games.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #230 on: July 31, 2009, 06:57:54 pm »
It might be hard to see working compared to Barca's system... but then I think it might just be the best way to go- Lucas and Masch in a 4-2-3-1 I can't see working well really. Even Gerrard and Masch as the 2.

I just think it's a system Rafa's tending towards... he's got his own ideas of how might work and how our players fit into it. If Xabi goes as is looking likely, then I believe Rafa'll take the club forward still. And if we end up keeping Xabi and the 4-2-3-1, I reckon we're league favourites- and that's a view I expect to be shared by the neutrals as well.

I prefer it if Xabi stayed but don't mind if he does go now as it could be an opportunity to progress further. I read someone saying it might be 1 step back and 2 steps forward... which I sort of agree with. The only problem is the length of time it takes for the 2 steps forward because when/if Xabi goes, we're definitely significantly weakened.

You guys are much better at analysing every aspect of it to be honest because I am just looking at it in the simplest way possible. Namely that when Barcelona play (or the few times I have actually watched a game of theirs) they normally flow forward and they might end up with 6 or so players in and around the box. Its something that seems natural to them.

With us we are more rigid so if you bring Gerrard back and dont replace him with another striker, then in our case its literally a case of removing an attacker in the team, as we dont seem to have the same flow and would need the other midfielder (in your case, Aurelio) to provide tangible benefits, being actual goals and direct assists. Otherwise you would end up with our midfielders and attackers going forward in predictable ways. Plus without another attacker there and the way we can be a bit robotic, you increase the burden on Riera and Kuyt, who arent exactly the most mobile and creative.

I dont think we have to abandon the 4-2-3-1 system without Alonso. I think the main part of Xabi's game is his ability pick out our attackers who are in great positions. I would like to think that whoever we sign can still do this. I think the main part we will lose Alonso is the contribution made by others, be it, that other players like Kuyt, Johnson etc. may not be as effective as they could be as Alonso is one of the best everywhere at involving all the players in the team.

If Lucas is the one to step in (or whoever it may be) then I dont see him being able to involve and play everyone in to the same level as Alonso because he is a world class performer. What he will need to do is make up for that by providing more goals and assists. Thats why I think he needs a massive confidence boost and some conviction because I think the only real way for anyone to replace Alonso is to be more direct and provide more goals and assists.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #231 on: July 31, 2009, 07:04:04 pm »
He may need to vary his game more, sure, but I can't agree that running with the ball isn't as "pacey" as hitting a long pass. In fact hitting a long pass, unless it's a defence splitting one, can slow the game down if the receiver - as usually happens - is isolated. There's nothing quicker than running with the ball if it is combined - as it is with Lucas - with short passing. After all Barca, the quickest team in the world, are stingy when it comes to hitting long balls. They overdose, however, when it comes to running with the ball directly at opponents and passing short.
I didn't mean a long pass as in a 30-40 yard ball where the player receiving can be isolated. I was talking more about 10-20 yard balls played on the ground.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #232 on: July 31, 2009, 07:13:31 pm »
You guys are much better at analysing every aspect of it to be honest because I am just looking at it in the simplest way possible. Namely that when Barcelona play (or the few times I have actually watched a game of theirs) they normally flow forward and they might end up with 6 or so players in and around the box. Its something that seems natural to them.

With us we are more rigid so if you bring Gerrard back and dont replace him with another striker, then in our case its literally a case of removing an attacker in the team, as we dont seem to have the same flow and would need the other midfielder (in your case, Aurelio) to provide tangible benefits, being actual goals and direct assists. Otherwise you would end up with our midfielders and attackers going forward in predictable ways. Plus without another attacker there and the way we can be a bit robotic, you increase the burden on Riera and Kuyt, who arent exactly the most mobile and creative.

I dont think we have to abandon the 4-2-3-1 system without Alonso. I think the main part of Xabi's game is his ability pick out our attackers who are in great positions. I would like to think that whoever we sign can still do this. I think the main part we will lose Alonso is the contribution made by others, be it, that other players like Kuyt, Johnson etc. may not be as effective as they could be as Alonso is one of the best everywhere at involving all the players in the team.

If Lucas is the one to step in (or whoever it may be) then I dont see him being able to involve and play everyone in to the same level as Alonso because he is a world class performer. What he will need to do is make up for that by providing more goals and assists. Thats why I think he needs a massive confidence boost and some conviction because I think the only real way for anyone to replace Alonso is to be more direct and provide more goals and assists.

Good post KH. I think that's a pretty accurate assessment of the formations and why, in my view, we should not think of changing systems. I also agree that Lucas is some way short at the moment of stepping in to the Alonso role, and I have major doubts about him being good enough long term. I hope he proves me wrong though. 
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #233 on: July 31, 2009, 08:43:52 pm »
You guys are much better at analysing every aspect of it to be honest because I am just looking at it in the simplest way possible. Namely that when Barcelona play (or the few times I have actually watched a game of theirs) they normally flow forward and they might end up with 6 or so players in and around the box. Its something that seems natural to them.

With us we are more rigid so if you bring Gerrard back and dont replace him with another striker, then in our case its literally a case of removing an attacker in the team, as we dont seem to have the same flow and would need the other midfielder (in your case, Aurelio) to provide tangible benefits, being actual goals and direct assists. Otherwise you would end up with our midfielders and attackers going forward in predictable ways. Plus without another attacker there and the way we can be a bit robotic, you increase the burden on Riera and Kuyt, who arent exactly the most mobile and creative.

I dont think we have to abandon the 4-2-3-1 system without Alonso. I think the main part of Xabi's game is his ability pick out our attackers who are in great positions. I would like to think that whoever we sign can still do this. I think the main part we will lose Alonso is the contribution made by others, be it, that other players like Kuyt, Johnson etc. may not be as effective as they could be as Alonso is one of the best everywhere at involving all the players in the team.

If Lucas is the one to step in (or whoever it may be) then I dont see him being able to involve and play everyone in to the same level as Alonso because he is a world class performer. What he will need to do is make up for that by providing more goals and assists. Thats why I think he needs a massive confidence boost and some conviction because I think the only real way for anyone to replace Alonso is to be more direct and provide more goals and assists.

To be honest I'm just going on a hunch and seeing the players Rafa wanted to bring in as well as the emergence of 4-3-3. Whenever I watched Barca last season it was purely for entertainment, but you do clearly pick up a few things- the way Xavi works, the way the team close down opposition and win the ball back quickly, the width from the fullbacks (namely Alves)... I reckon we have similar types of players to make it work as well.

I don't think it'd mean getting rid of an attacker either- we'd have Torres, the 2 wide forwards, Johnson and Gerrard at least readily attacking. That's 5 players without thinking about the other CM and fullback.

Interesting point about keeping the 4-2-3-1 though. Personally, I think it's even lasted this long is because of Xabi Alonso. If Rafa had his way last year we'd have been playing 4-3-3 I reckon- but Xabi stayed. The fact we did so well in that set up by the end of the season probably means Rafa prefers that Xabi does stay- at leats in the short term, the 2 holding midfielders with Xabi would be the best way to the title.

As for predictability in attack- it was a major problem for us, but I don't think it is anymore. The way we were stringing attacks together in the last couple of months of the season was as good as any team in the league, and one of the best in Europe. It might not have been as fluid as Barca's attacking play, but it was definitely as effective with good movement, one touch passing and creativity. I think we have a great set of attackers- a world class set in fact, and that's without any additions we might have.

Agree with you about Lucas, but then it only matters in that 4-2-3-1 formation- where Lucas would have the responsibility of catalysing our attack. Whereas in a 3 man CM, that responsibility would be shared between the 2 attacking midfielders either side of the holding player. In that situation, I reckon Lucas might just be able to do well- firstly, because there isn't that weight of responsibility on him solely, and secondly because he won't be targeted as strongly if he's only one of a few players who share the responsibility of controlling our football.

Of course, Rafa might just bring in a CM who works better in that 2 man holding midfield, in which case we do carry on with the way things are now- with the one midfield dynamo controlling our game. I don't think Lucas is anywhere near the level to be that player for us though- but all the talk of Aquilani, Sneijder or whoever... well they might be.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #234 on: August 1, 2009, 12:15:13 am »

The duty doesn't just pass to Lucas if Alonso leaves though. The whole defence needs to step up. If Xabi leaves, Agger will be crucial to our set up. I hope he is the first choice centre back if the inevitable centre half. I'm actually happy about Skrtel's injury at the moment as it gives Dani a chance to properly establish himself. On top of Agger needing more playing time, Skrtel really needs to step up his 'playmaking' skills. He looks like he has the potential to be a decent centre half attacking wise, but he needs to prove it this season.
Im fairly happy that Danny will get his playing time from the start, this will help Lucas or any replacement we buy, as Danny has his ball playing abilities, so thats immediate pressure off the midfield..

I would compare Lucas to Diego Forlan, not in terms of talent, hair or south american roots, but from the fact that we can all see he has a lot of talent, his skills are silky smooth, but for one reason or another, mostly confidence and/or luck he he hasnt clicked into gear yet...

i am sure that Lucas will be a very successful player, like Forlan, I just hope he gets to be that player we are waiting for here.. 

I'd like Babel to also, and thats another big confidence issue, however the comparisons are not evident with Forlan in this case, as he is a totally different beast.

Back to Lucas, Its a very interesting time for him, and no doubt he is thinking to himself and being encouraged by others to step up, this is his time to stake a claim to be a starter, and a confident successful player too. Im itching to see how Rafa responds to this messy situ we are in, who will he buy and what position will he play, will the formation be adjusted much, and how will Lucas adapt, will he play further up the pitch, or partner Mash... i guess it will all be clearer in another week or so.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #235 on: August 1, 2009, 09:15:40 am »
I have almost complete confidence that if Xabi left then Lucas could step up and fill his place on the team (I don't think you can ever have complete confidence in any player, less a very select band of the world elite).

He wouldn't be a direct replacement, because they are very different players, but he would bring a slightly different look to our midfield that would, I believe, make us just as dangerous as we are now with Xabi in the team.

I think Lucas has shown that he is capable of playing some very good football when he's had the chance. As has been said, he has the football brain and he has the ability and now he's coupled that with the experience of the English league and he seems to filled out a little bit and found the strength needed to play against the likes of Essien.

He's had a very rough ride from some of our 'supporters', most of it very harsh in my view. The penalty against Wigan was disappointing but he's hardly the first player to give away a penalty. The sending off against Everton was very harshly criticised I feel. I don't think he had any choice about the second foul that he made, it was foul the lad or let him have a free run on goal and Lucas took one for the team.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #236 on: December 2, 2010, 05:05:44 pm »

I would compare Lucas to Diego Forlan, not in terms of talent, hair or south american roots, but from the fact that we can all see he has a lot of talent, his skills are silky smooth, but for one reason or another, mostly confidence and/or luck he he hasnt clicked into gear yet...

i am sure that Lucas will be a very successful player, like Forlan, I just hope he gets to be that player we are waiting for here.. 

Back to Lucas, Its a very interesting time for him, and no doubt he is thinking to himself and being encouraged by others to step up, this is his time to stake a claim to be a starter, and a confident successful player too. Im itching to see how Rafa responds to this messy situ we are in, who will he buy and what position will he play, will the formation be adjusted much, and how will Lucas adapt, will he play further up the pitch, or partner Mash... i guess it will all be clearer in another week or so.

I just thought I'd say what a  great write up this is, and how great it is to see Lucas turning the Liverpool supporters into Lucas fans.  Always loved him myself, and so glad that he is finally getting the recognition he deserves, and is  playing more consistently at the top of his game.  I have also compared him to Forlan in the past, and look where he is now, a star of the last World Cup.  Glad we have been patient with Lucas!

Personally I think he still has plenty of improvement in him and will be a Liverpool legend in years to come.  Well done Lucas.
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Offline Jay-J

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #237 on: December 7, 2010, 07:11:34 pm »
Think Lucas lost alot of support whilst giving away a cheap penalty at the JJB a couple of years back to dent championship hopes.  Credit to him he has battled back matured and developed into a reliable source in the team. Dont think this has any coincidence with the departure of Mascherano. Very similar players

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #238 on: December 7, 2010, 10:22:51 pm »
Has anyone noticed Lucas is getting a bit tasty? He was giving out attitude left right and centre against Villa, leaving the foot in, following through with the shoulder, all the little tricks. He even shoved Luke Young in the face at one point, and it wasn't really necessary. Good to see and I wonder if it had anything to do with the line up. No Gerrard, no Carra. The negative way to put it would be that they stifle him, but the positive would be that he stepped up in their absence.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #239 on: December 7, 2010, 11:21:25 pm »
Aye, he's definately got it in him (and all the better for showing it). Young looked completely surprised, but also looked like he didn't fancy having a go back. He stepped up imo, and has been on an upward curve for a while. Lots of neat little passes with both feet, and great energy - worked his socks off when Villa were in possession. Promising future this lad...hope its with us for years to come.