Author Topic: Rugby Union or League Debate  (Read 7599 times)

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Rugby Union or League Debate
« on: March 4, 2010, 06:46:38 pm »
The scrum is a big difference between league and union. In league it is so predictable. In union it is a proper contest where turnovers happen.

There are more turnovers in the ruck in union. League usually go through the same 5 or 6 tackles and then it turns over automatically.

Also I think line outs don't happen properly in league but again in union they are properly contested.

So I guess it's the predictability of league that I find boring.

Sorry to resurrect the arguement but Kage pointed out in our RL thread that he came over to get some thoughts on RL.  We've been chatting about it quite a bit there and I've been giving more than my pennys worth.  Coming from St.Helens Iv grown up with RL but played RU at school.  Played at a local club from the age of 12 till now, and represented Lancashire at a number of age groups.  So being involved in both codes I managed to offer up plenty and help try and clear up some of the age old myths of RU for those guys, so almost wanted to do the same for you lot here :).

We came to the conclusion that both RL and RU fans are in general ignorant of each others games.  RL fans see RU as kick and clap "yay another 3 points from your half way line" and RU fans see RL as fish (or eels I recall one of you saying) or basically shagging around when your being tackled.  Its a shame that both codes cant and wont learn more from each other, both on the pitch and off the pitch as fans.

IMO RL is a better game to watch at professional level.  No this isnt narrow minded as you may think, this comes from someone who knows all the rules of RU and has played at a (fairly) decent level.  What RU does have however is tradition, and a larger fan base.  But you cant allow for TV and crowds to assume that its far more superior.  I love the six nations, follow Sale when I can on telly and watch the Lions as avidly as the next RU fan (my TOur dvds prove it).  But for you RU fans, try and watch some RL.  The rules are the simplier than RU so if you can follow RU then RL is no problem.  If you give it a few games and learn the rules a bit better then you wont be disappointed.  Iv plenty of "raa raa" university mates who play RU and are now converted.

Give it a try :)
« Last Edit: March 4, 2010, 07:22:29 pm by Pheeny »

Offline keithcun

  • Shameless destroyer of Warringtons finest cinematoria, claims he used to have a large one...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,748
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #1 on: March 4, 2010, 07:16:41 pm »
At the risk of appearing totally ignorant to the rules the few games I've watched the play stops for every tackle.  There is no 'rucks' as such.  The tackled player is left to get up and then play continues.

Average time for a play the ball in rugby league is around 4 secs. Are you telling me that rugby union gets the ball out of the ruck quicker than that on average?

I don't know the answer to this, but could you give a rough idea as to how many lineouts and scrums occur in an average game of rugby league? I doubt there are half as many scrums in RL compared to Union and the amount of time spent at a scrum in League is considerably less.
 
I have seen the scrum half juggle the ball against the backs of the forwards, along the floor at the back of a maul but rarely penalised for a knock on, can there be a knock on at the back of a ruck?


It reminds me a bit of American football (and no I don't understand that either - tried watching it as it appeared to be popular some yrs ago and it bored me shitless) insofar the objective seems to be to advance further up the pitch via a series of tackles.

Yeah, it's about as much in common as football and american football.

Is it right to suggest that Union is about advancing up the field via a series of mauls, that take longer than a tackle in League?

Why is possession given away so much in Union, ie all the kicking or otherwise known as full back tennis?
Surely you need to keep hold of possession to achieve your main aim, score a try, or has it come to a stage where penalty kicks are more important than tries as these seem to far outnumber tries in games and the majority of penalties in the opposition half are kicked at goal.

Do the players get bored with all the mauls and just decide you might as well kick for goal when you have a chance?

« Last Edit: March 4, 2010, 07:21:40 pm by keithcun »
I might have single handedly ruined Warrington's picture houses,but personally thought my pocket money was better spent at Anfield.

Offline weebroalan

  • Liable to be bamboozled at traffic lights. Beware! Prefers creme eggs to whoppers. Mr irresponsible-in detention for getting on a train
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,718
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #2 on: March 4, 2010, 07:43:20 pm »
Sorry to resurrect the arguement but Kage pointed out in our RL thread that he came over to get some thoughts on RL.  We've been chatting about it quite a bit there and I've been giving more than my pennys worth.  Coming from St.Helens Iv grown up with RL but played RU at school.  Played at a local club from the age of 12 till now, and represented Lancashire at a number of age groups.  So being involved in both codes I managed to offer up plenty and help try and clear up some of the age old myths of RU for those guys, so almost wanted to do the same for you lot here :).

We came to the conclusion that both RL and RU fans are in general ignorant of each others games.  RL fans see RU as kick and clap "yay another 3 points from your half way line" and RU fans see RL as fish (or eels I recall one of you saying) or basically shagging around when your being tackled.  Its a shame that both codes cant and wont learn more from each other, both on the pitch and off the pitch as fans.

IMO RL is a better game to watch at professional level.  No this isnt narrow minded as you may think, this comes from someone who knows all the rules of RU and has played at a (fairly) decent level.  What RU does have however is tradition, and a larger fan base.  But you cant allow for TV and crowds to assume that its far more superior.  I love the six nations, follow Sale when I can on telly and watch the Lions as avidly as the next RU fan (my TOur dvds prove it).  But for you RU fans, try and watch some RL.  The rules are the simplier than RU so if you can follow RU then RL is no problem.  If you give it a few games and learn the rules a bit better then you wont be disappointed.  Iv plenty of "raa raa" university mates who play RU and are now converted.

Give it a try :)
Mate good post

I am a big RU fan. Played at school, went to Landsdown to watch the Irish, Ravenhill to watch Ulster and would love to go on a Lions' tour.

To be honest I used to watch a lot of RL when I was a kid. I love Wigan big time - they were 'my team'.

Loved players like Offiah and Hanley and others I can't quite now remember.

I think you are right in saying tradition plays a big part, especially in Ireland where RU is massive and RL virtually non-existent.

Maybe I'm not so into RL now because I didn't play it, didn't go to games and only saw it on telly and my mates weren't into it.

But then I think if I was worried what my mates were into I would now be a Man Yoo fan and I most certainly am not ;D

I know you will argue differently but for me I find the predictability of RL the frustrating part. Scrums, tackles, rucks, line outs etc seem to result in fewer turnovers than in RU. You highlight the length of time a srcum takes in RU but there is always a chance of a TO or a penalty being given. So the longer a scrum goes on the more exciting it is for me - not knowing who is going to come out on top.

I have not statistics to back up this argument. It is just my 'feeling' !

I think you are right in saying that RL & RU fans should listen and learn from each other.

Offline keithcun

  • Shameless destroyer of Warringtons finest cinematoria, claims he used to have a large one...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,748
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #3 on: March 4, 2010, 07:49:54 pm »
Mate good post

I am a big RU fan. Played at school, went to Landsdown to watch the Irish, Ravenhill to watch Ulster and would love to go on a Lions' tour.

To be honest I used to watch a lot of RL when I was a kid. I love Wigan big time - they were 'my team'.

Loved players like Offiah and Hanley and others I can't quite now remember.

I think you are right in saying tradition plays a big part, especially in Ireland where RU is massive and RL virtually non-existent.

Maybe I'm not so into RL now because I didn't play it, didn't go to games and only saw it on telly and my mates weren't into it.

But then I think if I was worried what my mates were into I would now be a Man Yoo fan and I most certainly am not ;D

I know you will argue differently but for me I find the predictability of RL the frustrating part. Scrums, tackles, rucks, line outs etc seem to result in fewer turnovers than in RU. You highlight the length of time a srcum takes in RU but there is always a chance of a TO or a penalty being given. So the longer a scrum goes on the more exciting it is for me - not knowing who is going to come out on top.

I have not statistics to back up this argument. It is just my 'feeling' !

I think you are right in saying that RL & RU fans should listen and learn from each other.

There isn't any line outs or mauls in Rugby League.

Scrums in RL are now there to help the game flow. There are occasions that it's won against the head but rare, just like I imagine in Union. It helps to get the forwards out of the way and to emphasise attacking play and let the backs have the ball in hand. All that seems to happen in Union scrums is they reset it a few times and if they are close to the line they'll form a rolling maul that could take ages or if it's in their own half, a quick pass to the fullback whilst he puts his laces through it.
I might have single handedly ruined Warrington's picture houses,but personally thought my pocket money was better spent at Anfield.

Offline weebroalan

  • Liable to be bamboozled at traffic lights. Beware! Prefers creme eggs to whoppers. Mr irresponsible-in detention for getting on a train
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,718
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #4 on: March 4, 2010, 08:00:56 pm »
There isn't any line outs or mauls in Rugby League.

Scrums in RL are now there to help the game flow. There are occasions that it's won against the head but rare, just like I imagine in Union. It helps to get the forwards out of the way and to emphasise attacking play and let the backs have the ball in hand. All that seems to happen in Union scrums is they reset it a few times and if they are close to the line they'll form a rolling maul that could take ages or if it's in their own half, a quick pass to the fullback whilst he puts his laces through it.
A strong scrummaging team will win penalties against the head many times in a game. The scrum has been a real weak point for Ireland and we have lost quite a few free kicks/penalties which is effectively a TO.

I know there aren't proper line outs in RL but the ball still has to be put back into play - again in a way that cannot be contested and where a TO cannot happen unlike in RU where a good line out team will again win their fair share of their opponents ball.

I think the turnover is the big difference. In RL it is so predictable whereas in RU you don't know when or where it will happen.

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

  • Hairy Fool
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,577
  • Blimey!
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #5 on: March 4, 2010, 09:01:39 pm »
There's not really a debate is there. If you like RL more than RU then that's your prerogative. I, personally, would rather watch american football rather than RL. Don't ask me why, but I just cannot stand it. It's bland, dull and uninteresting and if anyone ever needed a sport to use as an example of how to over use video replay, it's RL.

But then that's just me. :wave
And when you find yourself along the untrodden path
Remember me with a smile, a drink, a gesture or a laugh
And a toast for the man who loves every hour of every day
And a feast for the friends and faces met along way
Gratitude

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

  • The name's Hall... Jonathan Hall. aka DangerPaddy. Olores de cebollas. Carly Cole Stalker. Likes to drink at Bar Fanny.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,048
  • Tapas y Cerveza y vino tinto!
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #6 on: March 4, 2010, 09:05:10 pm »
There's not really a debate is there. If you like RL more than RU then that's your prerogative. I, personally, would rather watch american football rather than RL. Don't ask me why, but I just cannot stand it. It's bland, dull and uninteresting and if anyone ever needed a sport to use as an example of how to over use video replay, it's RL.

But then that's just me. :wave

American Football, the worlds most boring fucking sport ever.

I'd rather watch my liver run off down the street.

Oh look, the ref has made a call lets go for an ad break.

Pile of shite.
Right which bastards eaten me Tapas?

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

Offline Chakan

  • Chaka Chaka.....is in love with Aristotle but only for votes. The proud owner of some very private piles and an inflatable harem! Winner of RAWK's Carabao Cup captian contest.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 91,079
  • Internet Terrorist lvl VI
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #7 on: March 4, 2010, 09:05:48 pm »
American Football, the worlds most boring fucking sport ever.

I'd rather watch my liver run off down the street.

Oh look, the ref has made a call lets go for an ad break.

Pile of shite.

Baseball beats american football hands down.

Offline JoeTwerp

  • Leader of the Maryland Vigilante Child Army. Mayor of Twerpville. Population 2
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #8 on: March 4, 2010, 09:11:45 pm »
For me in terms of the SPORT (i.e. footy, not the premier league, American football NOT NFL, etc.)

my priorities of the football codes are:

American
Association
Rugby League


7s

Australian










15 a side Union

Offline redmen9

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,233
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #9 on: March 4, 2010, 09:12:48 pm »
Gareth 'Alfie' Thomas is about to turn to the dark side.  Was a time when the bastard Northern clubs would rob us of all our young talent, oh how times have changed.

Offline CHOPPER

  • Bad Tranny with a Chopper. Hello John gotta new Mitre? I'm Jim Davidson in disguise. Undercover Cop (Grammar Division). Does Louis Spence. Well. A giga-c*nt worth of nothing in particular. Hodgson apologist. Astronomical cock. Hug Jacket Distributor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,420
  • Super Title: Not Arsed
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #10 on: March 4, 2010, 09:16:14 pm »
League at club level and Union at International level. I quite like watching the Varsity and Army/Navy games a well, If I can catch them.


JH is right about American football. A big girls blouse game.

 
@ Veinticinco de Mayo The way you talk to other users on this forum is something you should be ashamed of as someone who is suppose to be representing the site.
Martin Kenneth Wild - Part of a family

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

  • Hairy Fool
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,577
  • Blimey!
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #11 on: March 4, 2010, 09:17:38 pm »
American Football, the worlds most boring fucking sport ever.

I'd rather watch my liver run off down the street.

Oh look, the ref has made a call lets go for an ad break.

Pile of shite.
And there in lies my point. It's what you like isn't it. I honestly doubt that anything said by someone one here will make me want to watch RL (unless it's "i'll pay you $100 to sit and watch this with me"), no matter how passionately and eloquently they put over their points. It's the same in the "american sports" thread that was locked ages ago. These threads usually boil down to the "my sport is better than your sport" and what's the point. Theres a RU thread and a RL thread does there actually need to be a thread for people to argue which is the better sport?

Just enjoy what you enjoy. I love RU and can't stand RL, i'm not going into the RL thread and putting my views on there and I haven't called anyone any names with the discussion in the RU thread even though it doesn't belong there.

Then again, if it lets the 6 nations thread get back to just that then alls good.
And when you find yourself along the untrodden path
Remember me with a smile, a drink, a gesture or a laugh
And a toast for the man who loves every hour of every day
And a feast for the friends and faces met along way
Gratitude

Offline JoeTwerp

  • Leader of the Maryland Vigilante Child Army. Mayor of Twerpville. Population 2
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #12 on: March 4, 2010, 09:18:41 pm »
American Football, the worlds most boring fucking sport ever.

I'd rather watch my liver run off down the street.

Oh look, the ref has made a call lets go for an ad break.

Pile of shite.

I see that more of a condemnation of the NFL than American Football.

Offline MBL?

  • England Rugby Union's biggest fan. Accepts nothing smaller than 6.5 you know......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,031
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #13 on: March 4, 2010, 09:20:56 pm »
I hope you don't mind me answering this Keith. My first answers were far more in depth but I deleted the post by accident because I'm a right tool. ;D
Quote
I don't know the answer to this, but could you give a rough idea as to how many lineouts and scrums occur in an average game of rugby league? I doubt there are half as many scrums in RL compared to Union and the amount of time spent at a scrum in League is considerably less.
Scums and line outs are a big part of the game. There are few things better than seeing a well contested scrum or line out lead to the backs scoring a great try (Bowe against England ;D).
Quote
can there be a knock on at the back of a ruck?
No the only time there can be a knock on is when a kick is blocked down.
Quote
Is it right to suggest that Union is about advancing up the field via a series of mauls, that take longer than a tackle in League?
Yes, as well as tactical kicking.
Quote
Why is possession given away so much in Union, ie all the kicking or otherwise known as full back tennis?
Tactical kicking is used in a defensive and attacking manor. Defensively, rather than going through the phases using mauls you kick to relieve pressure. The reason you do this is there is far more ways to lose the ball in RU than there is in RL.

In an attacking sense the idea is to put you're opponent under pressure so as to force a turnover or force them to take a sloppy kick (which would move the attacking team further up the pitch than they originally started and also give them possession).
Quote
Do the players get bored with all the mauls and just decide you might as well kick for goal when you have a chance?
No, forwards especially love them. The reason you will see teams go for the drop goal is because of two things, they can't break through the opposing defence so they may as well have a go.  Or more commonly its a tight game near the end and three points will nick it.
 

Ps: There's absolutely nothing wrong with Diesel engines :D

Offline CHOPPER

  • Bad Tranny with a Chopper. Hello John gotta new Mitre? I'm Jim Davidson in disguise. Undercover Cop (Grammar Division). Does Louis Spence. Well. A giga-c*nt worth of nothing in particular. Hodgson apologist. Astronomical cock. Hug Jacket Distributor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,420
  • Super Title: Not Arsed
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #14 on: March 4, 2010, 09:32:59 pm »
I see that more of a condemnation of the NFL than American Football.
No, I think with the line, and I quote "American Football, the worlds most boring fucking sport ever"
means, he's having a go at American Football, not the NFL (National Frontal Lobotomy)
@ Veinticinco de Mayo The way you talk to other users on this forum is something you should be ashamed of as someone who is suppose to be representing the site.
Martin Kenneth Wild - Part of a family

Offline anon-y-mouse

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,507
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #15 on: March 4, 2010, 09:35:57 pm »
My issue around union is primarily one of safety. You reguarly get forwards with broken necks caused by scrummages when the scrum is filled with 8 huge fuckers and a huge amount of pressure. Simply put it's dangerous, this doesn't happen in RL as scrums are much rarer and not contested as a means to advance the ball.

Offline weebroalan

  • Liable to be bamboozled at traffic lights. Beware! Prefers creme eggs to whoppers. Mr irresponsible-in detention for getting on a train
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,718
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #16 on: March 4, 2010, 09:44:38 pm »
My issue around union is primarily one of safety. You reguarly get forwards with broken necks caused by scrummages when the scrum is filled with 8 huge fuckers and a huge amount of pressure. Simply put it's dangerous, this doesn't happen in RL as scrums are much rarer and not contested as a means to advance the ball.
There are very few serious injuries in scrums and when there is it always hits the headlines.

Scrums in RL are predictable whereas in RU they are much more likely to result in a TO

Offline CHOPPER

  • Bad Tranny with a Chopper. Hello John gotta new Mitre? I'm Jim Davidson in disguise. Undercover Cop (Grammar Division). Does Louis Spence. Well. A giga-c*nt worth of nothing in particular. Hodgson apologist. Astronomical cock. Hug Jacket Distributor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,420
  • Super Title: Not Arsed
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #17 on: March 4, 2010, 09:45:41 pm »
My issue around union is primarily one of safety. You reguarly get forwards with broken necks caused by scrummages when the scrum is filled with 8 huge fuckers and a huge amount of pressure. Simply put it's dangerous, this doesn't happen in RL as scrums are much rarer and not contested as a means to advance the ball.
As a tight head in my younger years I can vouch for the amount of pressures put on the front row, especially when you come up against an evenly matched pack.
Fortunately I decided to pack it all in to follow the reds, that, and the fact it started to effect my porcelain skin, damn fine looks, plus I would like to press flowers in my spare time. So it got in the way of that :)
@ Veinticinco de Mayo The way you talk to other users on this forum is something you should be ashamed of as someone who is suppose to be representing the site.
Martin Kenneth Wild - Part of a family

Offline weebroalan

  • Liable to be bamboozled at traffic lights. Beware! Prefers creme eggs to whoppers. Mr irresponsible-in detention for getting on a train
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,718
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #18 on: March 4, 2010, 09:46:03 pm »
I see that more of a condemnation of the NFL than American Football.
I thought this was RL vs RU? don't even get me started on American Football :D

Offline Una cerveza, por favor

  • As cold as ice... and almost as interesting.™
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,241
  • ¡Sí sí sí, la Copa ya está aquí!
    • JFT96
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #19 on: March 4, 2010, 09:52:00 pm »
No, I think with the line, and I quote "American Football, the worlds most boring fucking sport ever"
means, he's having a go at American Football, not the NFL (National Frontal Lobotomy)

But then again, if you people could run your league half as well as we run the NFL - commercially, financially, logistically etc. then English Football wouldn't be in so much of debt. :P
C'est la vie.

Offline Fairytale of 2005

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,853
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #20 on: March 4, 2010, 10:31:11 pm »
I echo the opening post about ignorance. I played RU at school, but that was a long time ago and I didn't like it. I played RL for years and to a decent standard and now coach. I am obviously coming from a RL biased view, but I honestly feel that RL and the way it is played should appeal more to the casual viewer. Yes I understand that RU has it's true fans who like the mauls and scrums etc, but to a casual viewer, RL is much more of an appealing prospect. I believe that RL suffers from stereotype and the fact that RU came first. People from outside the heartland, in general, don't give it a chance and this is where the problem lies.

I can not see where it is predictable, unless one team is far stronger than the other? For me RL has the following plus points over RU that make it more of a spectacle:

1. The speed at which the game moves is much faster than in RU
2. The player skill levels are much higher (aside from maybe the kickers)
3. This results in more attacking moves and more try scoring, i.e. more edge of the seat excitement
4. It is more aggressive and the tackles are far more ferocious. Again this leads to more of those edge of the seat moments and also TURNOVERS.
5. Players are fitter

England made 29 tackles as a team in the game at the weekend. RL forwards will make this each in one match. RL is the most physically demanding team sport. For me, I find that very appealing. Some people prefer other things, that's up to them.
« Last Edit: March 4, 2010, 10:34:21 pm by Kage »

Offline Mackeroo

  • Like mackerel, just more impressive. And bouncier.....now with added joeys.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,518
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #21 on: March 4, 2010, 10:32:09 pm »
For me personally, RU over RL every time.

Growing up in Ireland probably had a lot to do with that. I wasn't from a rugby stronghold and never even played club rugby, but there was something special about watching the five nations every February. The 1991 RWC really sparked my interest in the game, and the tournament was a joy to behold, Ireland going so close in the QF against eventual champions Australia, I thought we had won it after Gordon Hamilton's try.

There was little or no exposure to RL when I was growing up. The only time I ever saw RL was on the bbc when the Silk Cut Challenge Cup was on. That has changed since I moved to Australia. RL is everywhere, especially in Sydney. I watch it now and also regularly attend matches. I really appreciate the skill levels of players like Billy Slater and Jarred Hayne, but for me it will always be second to RU.

One of the reasons for this is the difference at the breakdown between the two codes. It's non existent in RL. When a player gets tackled, he rolls the ball back to the dummy half and play continues. There is no opportunity for turnovers unless the tackled player knocks the ball on in contact. In RU the tackled player has to make sure he has support alongside him when tackled, otherwise he will lose the ball or end up conceding a penalty for not releasing.

Another major difference is the scrum. In RL the scrum is uncontested, whereas in RU the scrum is useful for so many reasons. A strong scrummaging pack can win the ball against the head, the can utilise their own scrum to start a rolling maul, or they can break off the back of the scrum to get possession quickly to the backs.

There are no lineouts in RL, while in RU the lineout is a very effective way of setting up backline moves when used effectively. It can also be utilised to regain possession from the opposition.

One thing that really annoys me about RL is that you only get one point for a drop goal. It is one of the hardest skills to master with a rugby ball. I guess it is because the whole point of RL is trying to keep the game moving? But kicking at goal is an essential skill to have, especially in tight games.

Even though there are undoubtedly skillful players in RL, there is all to often players just running into each other trying to use brute force to gain territory. And if that doesn't work they kick the ball away after their set of six.

RU utilises tactical kicking. A good kick can pin the opposition deep in their own 22 with a lineout to come, or it can get you possession back as the opposition fullback often has no option but to kick the ball straight back to you.
« Last Edit: March 4, 2010, 10:34:23 pm by Mackeroo »

Offline MBL?

  • England Rugby Union's biggest fan. Accepts nothing smaller than 6.5 you know......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,031
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #22 on: March 4, 2010, 10:34:07 pm »
As a tight head in my younger years I can vouch for the amount of pressures put on the front row, especially when you come up against an evenly matched pack.
Fortunately I decided to pack it all in to follow the reds, that, and the fact it started to effect my porcelain skin, damn fine looks, plus I would like to press flowers in my spare time. So it got in the way of that :)
Does not compute. ;D

Offline MBL?

  • England Rugby Union's biggest fan. Accepts nothing smaller than 6.5 you know......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,031
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #23 on: March 4, 2010, 10:37:04 pm »
Yep all that, and the fact that Mungo ball is for stupid people...

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #24 on: March 4, 2010, 10:47:27 pm »
And there in lies my point. It's what you like isn't it. I honestly doubt that anything said by someone one here will make me want to watch RL (unless it's "i'll pay you $100 to sit and watch this with me"), no matter how passionately and eloquently they put over their points. It's the same in the "american sports" thread that was locked ages ago. These threads usually boil down to the "my sport is better than your sport" and what's the point. Theres a RU thread and a RL thread does there actually need to be a thread for people to argue which is the better sport?

Just enjoy what you enjoy. I love RU and can't stand RL, i'm not going into the RL thread and putting my views on there and I haven't called anyone any names with the discussion in the RU thread even though it doesn't belong there.

Then again, if it lets the 6 nations thread get back to just that then alls good.

The answer lies in fans ignorance...most RL fans dont have a clue about RU and vice versa, mainly as key points in RU such as lineouts,scrums and mauls etc are non existent or mean very little in RL.  The problem then is as a fan of the other code you watch the game with your codes eyes wondering...what the hell is all that about, why did he not kick then etc.

My post (which I never intentionally meant for it to be a thread originally) was just to highlight the fact that a lot of people dont understand the sport.  Rugby IMO is unique as the games are yes ARE similar, but at the same time different.  If an american football fan watched baseball for the first time then he wouldnt have presumptions on how the game should be played, they would just watch and learn, but rugby fans have knowledge of their own code and so judge the opposite one totally differently.

My main point was that both codes should give the opposite one a go and actually watch a few games.  To make it more bearble I'd suggest the internationals (Lions tour 2013 is a must by the way) for RL fans to get a taste of union, and for RU fans then any of the big games such as Saints v Wigan or Leeds vs Bradford.

Your right that people should watch what they like, but most rugby fans dont give the other code a chance, thats all I was trying to get across

Offline Fairytale of 2005

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,853
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #25 on: March 4, 2010, 10:50:04 pm »
For me personally, RU over RL every time.

Growing up in Ireland probably had a lot to do with that. I wasn't from a rugby stronghold and never even played club rugby, but there was something special about watching the five nations every February. The 1991 RWC really sparked my interest in the game, and the tournament was a joy to behold, Ireland going so close in the QF against eventual champions Australia, I thought we had won it after Gordon Hamilton's try.

There was little or no exposure to RL when I was growing up. The only time I ever saw RL was on the bbc when the Silk Cut Challenge Cup was on. That has changed since I moved to Australia. RL is everywhere, especially in Sydney. I watch it now and also regularly attend matches. I really appreciate the skill levels of players like Billy Slater and Jarred Hayne, but for me it will always be second to RU.

One of the reasons for this is the difference at the breakdown between the two codes. It's non existent in RL. When a player gets tackled, he rolls the ball back to the dummy half and play continues. There is no opportunity for turnovers unless the tackled player knocks the ball on in contact. In RU the tackled player has to make sure he has support alongside him when tackled, otherwise he will lose the ball or end up conceding a penalty for not releasing.

Another major difference is the scrum. In RL the scrum is uncontested, whereas in RU the scrum is useful for so many reasons. A strong scrummaging pack can win the ball against the head, the can utilise their own scrum to start a rolling maul, or they can break off the back of the scrum to get possession quickly to the backs.

There are no lineouts in RL, while in RU the lineout is a very effective way of setting up backline moves when used effectively. It can also be utilised to regain possession from the opposition.

One thing that really annoys me about RL is that you only get one point for a drop goal. It is one of the hardest skills to master with a rugby ball. I guess it is because the whole point of RL is trying to keep the game moving? But kicking at goal is an essential skill to have, especially in tight games.

Even though there are undoubtedly skillful players in RL, there is all to often players just running into each other trying to use brute force to gain territory. And if that doesn't work they kick the ball away after their set of six.

RU utilises tactical kicking. A good kick can pin the opposition deep in their own 22 with a lineout to come, or it can get you possession back as the opposition fullback often has no option but to kick the ball straight back to you.

If you watch top level RL, you will agree that teams use tactical kicking as a part of their attacking armoury? The ball switches between teams regularly in RL anyway, so I don't understand the turnover argument. A team has the ball for around a minute or so and need to gain territory in their possession.

The defence can apply pressure and force a turnover at any time through aggressive defence, this is very common. I personally would much rather see this than 10 guys in a pile and no idea where the ball is until it pops out 20 seconds later. Again, just a personal view.

RL uses less brute force to gain possession and territory than RU. Yes driving it in and dominating the speed of the play the ball is part of the game, but with the view to then get the ball into the hands of playmakers with the defenders on the back foot. RU players on the other hand, get the ball out of ruck and then often head straight back to where they just came from and start up again. Far more big guys with brute force necessary.

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #26 on: March 4, 2010, 10:51:57 pm »
There are very few serious injuries in scrums and when there is it always hits the headlines.

Scrums in RL are predictable whereas in RU they are much more likely to result in a TO

Just as an aside, scrums arent predictable, there not contested.  Yes they can push but they dont want/need to.  A scrum in RL is just a restart and a chance to have a minute and catch ur breath as a forward.  I play prop in RU and so dont think Im not into my scrums, I love pinning my tight head just as much as the next loose head does, but RL scrums arent for that.  Its a chance to create more space in the backs by taking the forwards out of the game.  The ball is fed through so comes out quicker, compared to a contested scrum in RU which is generally slower ball.

Offline Fairytale of 2005

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,853
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #27 on: March 4, 2010, 10:52:59 pm »
Yep all that, and the fact that Mungo ball is for stupid people...

Mungo ball? Is that an attempt at being funny?

Offline hansen6

  • RAWK Scientific Officer, 1687-1905
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,214
  • Must post more
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #28 on: March 4, 2010, 10:55:20 pm »
For me it's the variation in play, having proper set pieces breaks up the play and lets more variation into it, RL just seems to involve the same type of play. Having a constant battle for turnover at the breakdown also leads to variation.  I just don't see the point of a player going two yards, getting tackled, humping the ground x5 then kicking

RU players also come in different shapes and sizes more so than RL - this means mismatches over the pitch.

Quote
The player skill levels are much higher
That's open to debate, there are plenty of RL players who have switched codes and struggled badly.

It also has a bad doping record

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #29 on: March 4, 2010, 10:57:02 pm »
Yep all that, and the fact that Mungo ball is for stupid people...

Ignorant comments like this make me feel totally justified in the thread...to show whoppers like urself that you obviosuly dont have a clue.

Offline Mackeroo

  • Like mackerel, just more impressive. And bouncier.....now with added joeys.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,518
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #30 on: March 4, 2010, 10:59:38 pm »
If you watch top level RL, you will agree that teams use tactical kicking as a part of their attacking armoury?

I agree. I cannot comment on English RL because I haven't seen it in at least three years, but one of the best exponents of the tactical kick I've seen is Darren Lockyer.

As for the rest of your post, and mine for that matter, it all comes down to personal opinion I guess. I think that theres great skill involved in retaining possession and feeding it back through a ruck, and you love the hard hitting.

I'm not trying to shove my beliefs down your throat, I apologise if I came across like that. I was merely outling the main differences as I see them between the two codes.

I like RL, I go to maybe half of The Roosters home games. I was just saying that I prefer to watch RU.

:wave

« Last Edit: March 4, 2010, 11:01:53 pm by Mackeroo »

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #31 on: March 4, 2010, 10:59:50 pm »
For me it's the variation in play, having proper set pieces breaks up the play and lets more variation into it, RL just seems to involve the same type of play. Having a constant battle for turnover at the breakdown also leads to variation.  I just don't see the point of a player going two yards, getting tackled, humping the ground x5 then kicking

RU players also come in different shapes and sizes more so than RL - this means mismatches over the pitch.
That's open to debate, there are plenty of RL players who have switched codes and struggled badly.

It also has a bad doping record

But with that "shagging the ground" attitude, surely you can agree that as an ignorant RL fan watching RU when they play it tight for 3-4 phases picking and going around the ruck that that also seems slow and pointless?  You say "two yards" as if it means something.  Yet again take a prop picking and going in RU sometimes they dont even get over the gain line before another ruck/maul is formed.  If you really want me to pull the stats up for yards made in a season by prop forwards in RL then in RU and compare I will do.  Stop making stupid comments about something you obviously know nothing about

Offline Fairytale of 2005

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,853
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #32 on: March 4, 2010, 11:01:16 pm »

That's open to debate, there are plenty of RL players who have switched codes and struggled badly.

It also has a bad doping record

The doping record of late is not good, but RU has had it's recent disciplinary issues aswell.

I would suggest that players struggle to convert, because the games are in fact very different. That has nothing to do with skill levels really. While I accept that some people prefer RU for various reasons, I will argue forever that RL players on the whole are more skillful. :wave

Offline Fairytale of 2005

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,853
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #33 on: March 4, 2010, 11:07:36 pm »
I agree. I cannot comment on English RL because I haven't seen it in at least three years, but one of the best exponents of the tactical kick I've seen is Darren Lockyer.

As for the rest of your post, and mine for that matter, it all comes down to personal opinion I guess. I think that theres great skill involved in retaining possession and feeding it back through a ruck, and you love the hard hitting.

I'm not trying to shove my beliefs down your throat, I apologise if I came across like that. I was merely outling the main differences as I see them between the two codes.

I like RL, I go to maybe half of The Roosters home games. I was just saying that I prefer to watch RU.

:wave



I am happy to have sensible debate and I am interested to see the persepective from the other code. I don't feel as though anyone is ramming their opinions anywhere. We all have different ones and I enjoy reading them as RL coach. I don't think RU players have no skill, just that the skillset for an RL player is higher.

As for Lockyer, the guy is a genious. Australian RL is on a higher skill plane again compared to Super League. Personally I think the NRL is the pinnacle of rugby, with the State of Origin games the cherry at the top.

Offline MBL?

  • England Rugby Union's biggest fan. Accepts nothing smaller than 6.5 you know......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,031
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #34 on: March 4, 2010, 11:07:42 pm »
Jesus lads, I was obviously taking the piss.


Offline MBL?

  • England Rugby Union's biggest fan. Accepts nothing smaller than 6.5 you know......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,031
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #35 on: March 4, 2010, 11:09:47 pm »
I am happy to have sensible debate and I am interested to see the persepective from the other code. I don't feel as though anyone is ramming their opinions anywhere. We all have different ones and I enjoy reading them as RL coach. I don't think all RU player have no skill, just that the skillset for an RL player is higher.
Could you please expand on how you think a League player has a higher skill set?

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #36 on: March 4, 2010, 11:11:21 pm »
Jesus lads, I was obviously taking the piss.



Fair enough but in general thats the view of most RU fans, and it frustrates the hell out of me, mainly because I feel RL aint recognised as being what it is.  Its managed to do pretty well and helped sport in general, being among the first to use video refs and constantly being innovative in rule changes that have developed the game and made it faster.  All of that with limited fan bases and a poor international scene. 

Just dont see how your comment did anything but show the RL guys the general toff side of a RU fan though.

Offline Mackeroo

  • Like mackerel, just more impressive. And bouncier.....now with added joeys.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,518
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #37 on: March 4, 2010, 11:14:50 pm »
I am happy to have sensible debate and I am interested to see the persepective from the other code. I don't feel as though anyone is ramming their opinions anywhere. We all have different ones and I enjoy reading them as RL coach. I don't think all RU player have no skill, just that the skillset for an RL player is higher.

As for Lockyer, the guy is a genious. Australian RL is on a higher skill plane again compared to Super League. Personally I think the NRL is the pinnacle of rugby, with the State of Origin games the cherry at the top.

I must say that the State of Origin games are immense. The referees tend to let a lot more go than they would in a regular NRL game. Queensland have been dominant for the last few years but I really feel that NSW have been done by some terrible refereeing errors in the last two series. Anyway that's for another thread.

Out of curiosity, who won the World Club Challenege this year? I ask because I genuinely don't know. If I had to put money on it I'd say Leeds. And I believe they won it last season, so I'm wondering why do you think the NRL is superior to Superleague?

Do the superleague have a salary cap? Much more NRL players seem to be defecting to Superleague, French RU and even Japanese RU in recent years.

Offline MBL?

  • England Rugby Union's biggest fan. Accepts nothing smaller than 6.5 you know......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,031
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #38 on: March 4, 2010, 11:16:46 pm »
Fair enough but in general thats the view of most RU fans, and it frustrates the hell out of me, mainly because I feel RL aint recognised as being what it is.  Its managed to do pretty well and helped sport in general, being among the first to use video refs and constantly being innovative in rule changes that have developed the game and made it faster.  All of that with limited fan bases and a poor international scene. 
It also gave Union a kick up the arse in terms of physicality and professionalism.

Just dont see how your comment did anything but show the RL guys the general toff side of a RU fan though.
Aye, a Leopard can't change it's spots ;D

Offline peelyon

  • strangefruit
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,660
  • YNWA
Re: Rugby Union or League Debate
« Reply #39 on: March 4, 2010, 11:17:01 pm »
I must say that the State of Origin games are immense. The referees tend to let a lot more go than they would in a regular NRL game. Queensland have been dominant for the last few years but I really feel that NSW have been done by some terrible refereeing errors in the last two series. Anyway that's for another thread.

Out of curiosity, who won the World Club Challenege this year? I ask because I genuinely don't know. If I had to put money on it I'd say Leeds. And I believe they won it last season, so I'm wondering why do you think the NRL is superior to Superleague?

Do the superleague have a salary cap? Much more NRL players seem to be defecting to Superleague, French RU and even Japanese RU in recent years.


Hope your not a betting man then mate! Melbourne Storm won it ;)  As for NRL players moving over, I just want to see Jamie Lyon back at Saints!!  WHo you go to watch in Sydney then?  Roosters?  Super League does have a salary cap, I think we had it over here first but I may be wrong