Topic: Round Table: Bolton 3 Liverpool 1

[Garstonite]

I say this is neither haste nor anger, but Kenny needs to swallow his pride and get rid of Carroll. We’ll take a massive knock financially, but it’s fundamentally clear he is not the right man for this club and the type of football we’re striving towards.

Carroll isn’t the only problem, of course. The elephant in the room, for my money, is Charlie Adam, who appears to have dodged much of the criticism thrown in the direction of our summer recruits. When he gets his head up, he’s one of the best passers of the ball in the division (his ball to Enrique against Stoke was sumptuous) but he’s consistently unaware of his surrounding. When he drops deep to collect the ball from the centre-backs with his back to goal, his eyes are fixed on the ball. He’s got to trust that Agger and Skrtel are going to play the ball to his feet and start looking over his shoulder and around him. Alonso was the best I’ve ever seen at doing this and Michael Carrick is another I have to begrudgingly admired for it too. There’s next to no point whatsoever having two ball-playing centre-halves if you haven’t got an anchoring midfielder who is capable of giving and receiving under pressure. This is another area we miss Lucas, who always demands the ball and returns it with precision and speed.

Chelsea dropped points earlier in the day, but their performance was on a different level to ours. They make use of the size of the pitch. Meireles and Lampard (before he went off) played the ball from side to side patiently while Mata ran into the channels. If Torres was in form, they would have won at a canter.

By contrast, we had central midfielders who were afraid of being pressurized, playing the ball up to a front man who traps every other ball and is predictable as this site running slowly after a defeat.

[Yorkykopite]

That was the worst performance since Kenny took over. Too reminiscent of the Hodgson reign in fact. It was both gutless and unimaginative and – barring an honourable effort throughout from Craig Bellamy - the team lacked any kind of leadership or courage until Henderson went into the middle and took over from the abysmal Charlie Adam.

Within five minutes of the start it was clear that a group of Liverpool players were badly out of nick. Johnson fought fresh air several times to control the ball – fresh air winning the contest each time. Then he decided it wasn’t his day and went into a shell, trying his best to avoid getting involved in the action. (Why Kelly wasn’t given a chance I don’t know). Enrique also struggled against a stronger and apparently faster Eagles (the Man of the Match) all evening. Skrtel’s inner donkey came out on several occasions - and he was badly fault for the first and third goals, arriving far too late for that kind of ‘all or nothing’ challenge for the first and jumping tokenistically, with his head sunk in his shoulders, for the second.

We all expected a powerful Liverpool come-back in the second half but we got surrender instead. There was something shameful about the performance and I’d quite like to hear Kenny say that. It’s surprising that players get paid after playing like our boys did in the second half. Maybe they don’t.

Two Liverpool players stood out though. They were Charlie Adam and Andy Carroll.

I can see why Adam played in a team that got relegated last year. He’s nothing when we don’t have the ball. In fact he’s a danger to his own defence with his stupid late tackling and his inability to read a developing play. Most of the time he seems to be back on his heels, rarely offering himself for a pass and evidently unable to anticipate the movements of the men he’s meant to be marking. When he does get the ball it often takes two or three touches (all with the left foot) before he’s got it just so. Inevitably the ensuing long pass (and it’s always a fucking long pass) never finds its man because the whole field has changed since he last looked up. Whether in possession or without it, the fella seems to be about 2 seconds behind where he should be. I’d be happy not to see him again for the Reds. He’s barely an improvement on Poulson. In some aspects of his game he's actually worse (and this is not praise for Poulson)

Why not give Shelvey a go? What’s he done wrong since he excelled in our victory at Villa Park? If he chose to play for Scotland would that increase his chances at Liverpool?

And then there’s Andy Carroll! Bolton fans were laughing at him today. It was awful to hear because we know he’s a fragile character. I hoped when we bought him that we were buying John Toshack. But it looks very much like we bought Alan Waddle instead. His limitations are so obvious now that it’s both futile and cruel to point them out. I know it was a panic buy last January. I know we came out of it still clutching a 15 mill profit. But the longer this goes on, the longer we’ll struggle to get anything back on our outlandish investment. The idea that he’s young and has a secure re-sale value will soon be shown to be pure wishful-thinking. 'Moneyball'? I don't think so. 'Balls-up'? It's looking that way. Carroll's had lots of chances now and, if anything, he’s worse than when he first arrived (having, let’s not forget, arrived injured because he’d fallen off a Newcastle bar stool and damaged his thigh while thoroughly pissed).

Anything good today? Pepe setting attacks rolling quickly. Agger – excellent throughout, both defensively and in attack. Bellamy – love him. Jordan Henderson. Well done lad. If you can play like that surrounded by zombies you’ll have no worries in the long run.

[killer-heels]

Pretty poor performance and some pretty brutal comments from Kenny.

It was very disjointed. The defence looked very shaky and looked even worse when they had the ball. They had numerous chances to clear the ball before the corner for the 3rd goal but they and Reina just encompassed the nervousness that we illustrated in the whole game.

Everything in front of them was just as bad. Our passing was so bad that we struggled to get into the final third of the field on numerous occasions as the play would break down in midfield.

They didn't even cover the defence well. The amount of times Eagles, Reo-Coker and co just got in and around our midfield and at our back four was shocking.

Up front, we were woeful. Bellamy buzzed around but Carroll was shocking and worse still, he didn't seem to care.

[Garstonite]

I'll be honest in saying that I advocated Adam's purchase. I was going purely off the two games against us last term and the fact that Kenny was so adamant to bring him in. I think he can serve a purpose in certain fixtures but if he's still a regular started for us next term, we've done something wrong in the summer. I also agree that Shelvey is the superior talent. Why Kenny felt fit to throw Robinson and Flanagan in at the proverbial deep-end last season but wraps him in cotton wool is beyond me. Hopefully he'll start at least one the games against the Manchester outfits next week.

[SMD]

It was a stupid performance, there was no nous on show and our attacking malaise seems to have spread to the defence now. We've one week left of the transfer window and it's a bit worrying that we haven't got at least one player in to shore up the squad. I understand we've been looking at players for the short and long term but there are massive holes in midfield and attack that need plugging - if we're serious about qualifying for the Champions League then something has to happen.

Our substitutes made no difference today, don't know if that's an indictment of them or the situation they faced when they came on. Probably both, I forgot Downing was on the field.

I don't care who we sign or where they're from, as long as they display the desire to win and the intelligence/technique to make it happen.

[Aristotle]

I agree with you about Charlie Adam. And I said as much after the Stoke game. Cropped out the stuff about Henderson and 3 CBs.

Adam was just so damn inconsistent. He played a 40 yard pass that was an absolute peach but he seems to be like an advanced version of Carragher if he has time on the ball. Get the ball, stop it, tap, tap, tap, put your foot through it. I get that he can do wonderful things, but his inability to do simple things like pass it instantly with his right or even the outside of his left. One thing he did, which he has done in almost every game without fail and that's his trademark show up too late and sweep someone's feet challenge. It's almost like OCD for him. And he could do with some patience or concentration or whatever you want to call it. There is no harm in passing it between yourselves until the right pass becomes available, instead of trying to force the final ball whether it's there or not. And like I mentioned before. He always feels like a quarterback. He can pull moments of magic out of his arse but you can't shake the feeling that unless he has a linebacker covering his ass, he'll be stripped of possession and be out of play on the counter.

He hasn't done anything to suggest that he will come good. I don't give a flying fuck about goals and assists from a central midfielder unless he's doing it every week. Charlie Adam's first and only priority should be getting others in a scoring position and that's where he fails. And it's a shit fucking situation when we look to be accomodating our front 6 to help Charlie Adam cope. He can't function properly without critical assistance and I think that if we're going to count on him as a playmaker we need to get Lucas fit to create space and time for him. And sign a Sissoko/Mascherano midfielder to hover around him like an F-15 around Air Force One. His decision making on the counter is another thing. One time is an understandable mistake, two times is frustrating that he didn't learn and third time is beginning to look like a pattern.


As for Carroll. When he headed it through for Bellamy I thought, just for a second that it might be a turning point. Some awareness, using his abilities to the fullest but then chickening out of headers against Wheater 5 minutes later and you just lose any hope you had.


In a nutshell we sacrificed a winning formula for better training ground morale and big fish from little ponds and that one has to sit with Kenny. Now I don't know what we can do to turn it around but I still have faith Kenny will know what to do, but he has to swallow his pride and admit that he's gotten his fair share of things wrong so far.


One more thing I'd like to add. I really love that Henderson is instinctively good at football. You can just tell that once he's polished his overall game he can become absolutely outstanding and if he had a little more faith in himself and a few more hours on the training ground that shot he had early in the game would've hit the back of the net.

[royhendo]

Two words: utter garbage.

[royhendo]

There was something shameful about the performance and I’d quite like to hear Kenny say that.

He has.

"Some of those players won't be in red shirts much longer if they carry on playing that way. It was disrespectful"

[royhendo]

I'll say this though, and it won't go down well. People weren't saying these things about the same players after Chelsea away. They need a boot up the arse as they evidently had their minds on the coming fixtures and nowhere near enough respect for their opponents, but it's possible we needed that. It was brutal and it might just shake them out of it, because they're all much much better than that, both individually and collectively. And that includes Adam. He stank the joint out today. My son, after I shouted "Ah come onn Charlie!" asked "Is Charlie a goodie or a baddie Dad?". I replied "That's a good question Olly.".

It could be that our Lucas proxy is even more pressing (sic) than our finisher.

[El Campeador]

This game was lost at the back, and it was lost early. It's worthwhile to note that the first Bolton goal early on came from a wayward Eagles pass from the right wing - he himself pulled up in disgust before he realized that his attempted pass had luckily found Davies, who could scarcely believe how little trouble he had advancing on Reina, and, after a few easy touches, deposited the ball in the back of the net. That should never have happened. It had nothing to do with Andy Carroll, Stuart Downing, Jordan Henderson or Moneyball. It had everything to do with piss poor defending and a soft CM when it counted.

Our fullbacks were shocking today. Johnson was anonymous. Enrique was schooled by Eagles in a way that way almost impossible to fathom. We collapsed at the back early, and often. It's no use blaming the forwards for a 3 goal hole. Carroll, Bellamy and Henderson did alright, I thought, especially down the right early, save some shit crossing by the latter two.

But we were suspect at the back, and non-existent in the middle. Adam seems to be very volatile - he may show up pinging passes like Xabi one day, and look like Igor Biscan in a sack the next. Today was the latter. Paired with an undisciplined and unproductive Gerrard, he failed in every department. He left spaces around him, he did not protect his centrebacks, and he was lucky not to get more cautions than he did for persistent fouling. Gerrard himself alternated between playing like he had all of Hamann, Mascherano and Lucas behind him, and realizing that he did not in fact have any protection at all, dropping back deeper than he should have. With Henderson out wide right, our midfield was chaotic enough for Nigel Mediocre to dominate. For long stretches, and two goals, there was a lot of green in the middle of the park.

By the time we threw Dirk Kuyt on the pitch to run around the DM area, and Downing to do fuck all, we'd already lost the match. To be honest, Bolton should have scored a couple more. Our tactics got found out - through little fault of our own, I hasten to add. Either one of Lucas or Spearing would have led directly to at least one, and probably two, less Bolton goals.

This isn't about ripping up the long term plan and pointing fingers at Andy Carroll and Charlie Adam. This match in particular was lost because our defense came out looking hungover, and were not afforded any protection at all by a soft midfield.

[Garstonite]

I'll say this though, and it won't go down well. People weren't saying these things about the same players after Chelsea away. They need a boot up the arse as they evidently had their minds on the coming fixtures and nowhere near enough respect for their opponents, but it's possible we needed that. It was brutal and it might just shake them out of it, because they're all much much better than that, both individually and collectively. And that includes Adam. He stank the joint out today. My son, after I shouted "Ah come onn Charlie!" asked "Is Charlie a goodie or a baddie Dad?". I replied "That's a good question Olly.".

It could be that our Lucas proxy is even more pressing (sic) than our finisher.

I think Charlie performed well in and around the period we played Chelsea twice in a fortnight. He hasn't reached that standard since though and his performances since December have been poor.

It's no surprise that it's coincided with Lucas' injury and he probably would have looked better alongside him. But then, what does that say about Adam? Lucas came to the fore in the absence of Mascherano and Alonso. Adam has to do it in the absence of Lucas but nothing in his career suggests he's able to.

[Aristotle]

It could be that our Lucas proxy is even more pressing (sic) than our finisher.

I have to agree with that. We're playing the wrong way, and Andy Carroll's performances are just personafying it.

We could sign Pippo Inzhagi in his prime. But if you feed him parachute balls over 6'5" center backs and have him drop inside his own half to recieve the ball. All the poaching instincts in the world won't help you score goals.

[royhendo]

That's very true lads, and I think I agreed the other week, Adam needs bodies compensating for his shortcomings in the middle to operate effectively. Lucas is missed for more than the footballing and tactical qualities though - he sets the tempo and battles no matter who we face. He's the English player in the side - the Scottish player - the bulldog, terrier, whatever you want to call it. Nobody set the tone or the tempo. Adam has missed him on all fronts, but the rest are missing him just as acutely in many respects. Possibly signing a decent defensive midfielder would restore some balance.

Kenny's had to pull out his managerial joker and show them who's the big dog.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3iuMMy9rU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[royhendo]

Timely from the talented Mr Zeb.

"They have got to be professional not playboys or fly-by-nights. I am talking about the attitude. The players seem to be saying sorry and think it's over and done with. They will have to change their attitude." - Uncle Bob after losing 2-0 at Ipswich, 81/82 season.

Team: Grobbelaar, Neal, Kennedy, Thompson, Kennedy, Hansen, Dalglish, Lee, Johnson, McDermott, Souness. Sub: Johnston on for McDermott.

No shortage of leaders on the pitch, rocket still launched. Uncle Bob also had a pop at the supporters that season for being too complacent. Canny man Uncle Bob and Kenny seems to be following his playbook.

[Yorkykopite]

Timely from the talented Mr Zeb.

Good point. Of course Bob did more than just threaten the players in 81-82. He brought two young fearless kids into the team after the Boxing Day fiasco v Man City. They were still there at the end of the season when we were champions. Whelan and Rush.

[royhendo]

Fresh midfield and striking blood?

[Corkboy]

I don't usually comment after doing comms, because you really don't see the game that well but this evening was a horror show. Excuse me quoting myself but...

Lovely little cameo there. Henderson was going to head a ball, obviously got a shout from Johnson behind him as he didn't jump for it. Johnson then chested it against the back of Henderson's legs and we lost it.

That's the sort of thing we're doing today.

That sums it up for me. We haven't been so awful all season that we deserve the kind of vitriol being chucked around out there. Bad day at the office. If it turns into two bad days, I will be concerned.

[Yorkykopite]

That sums it up for me.

Yeah, that was the sort of thing that you see in schools football. I like Glen Johnson but I'd say Kelly's a locked-on certainty to replace him v Man City. If he does well the position's his for the rest of the season.

Fresh midfield and striking blood?

Is the midfield solution within the club? I'm thinking Shelvey. Or maybe a punt on Joey Barton who, for years now, has been the second best English centre-midfielder (after Parker).

As for centre-forward we might put a bid in for Jordan Rhodes at Huddersfield. Six million will get his signature. The young lad scored the winner again today. That's 14 goals in his last 7 matches. And his 29th of the season.

Shit, sorry everyone, I've probably just turned this into another transfer thread.

 

[Corkboy]

Yeah, that was the sort of thing that you see in schools football. I like Glen Johnson but I'd say Kelly's a locked-on certainty to replace him v Man City. If he does well the position's his for the rest of the season. 

You're missing my point. For large parts of the season so far, the back four of Johnson, Skrtel, Agger and Enrique have attracted plaudits within and without, and rightly so. Up until now, our problem has been further up the park. This competent, experienced back four, with the best defensive stats in the league, had a shocker, and that should be recognised but this was, so far, a complete aberration. Unless you are in the business of dropping performing players after one bad game, it's an over reaction.

The discussion, in my view, should be about why this shocker happened. The leaky midfield may have some questions to answer. Either way, I would be surprised to see Kelly or Robinson out next time. Maybe Jonjo. Or Conor Coady.

[royhendo]

Thinking about other games, much as Kenny suggested. Complacency is hopefully a selling trigger if it becomes a habit.

[Corkboy]

I am now coming to the conclusion, in contrast to El C's earlier post, that this game was lost in midfield.

Bolton went with a 4 5 1, to such an extent that I had to look up the teamsheets just now to see who their next most forward player was. I think it was Davies (the small one). We had a 4 4 2 or a 4 4 1 1, depending on how you look at it. (When we're motoring, it's 4 3 3, or 3 4 3, but the point of the football we're trying to play now, pass and move, is that positions are somewhat notional). Anyway, they packed midfield and even given Maxi's predilection to drifting inwards, we still ended up getting outnumbered. That shouldn't happen.

It's glorious 20 20 hindsight but as soon as Henderson started out wide right, the only question was whether Gerrard and Adam were on their A game and they weren't. Going 4 4 2 against a 4 5 1 away means you don't rate them, and we got our bluff called.

[Aristotle]

Thinking about other games, much as Kenny suggested. Complacency is hopefully a selling trigger if it becomes a habit.

I think the cold harsh reality of the situation is that Kenny's signings have let him down. And it's soul crushing that they have. I think the lack of backbone and fight has shocked most people. Like one would have thought the likes of Downing and Carroll running themselves into the ground for Kenny, not hiding in fear of their own shadow when they step onto the pitch wearing that famous red shirt. Charlie Adam too, up to an extent seems far too comfortable having reached his peak. I've never been afraid to let my feelings about him known, but I always thought his biggest redeeming factor was that he "gets" us. Man of the people, in it for the fans he understands the prestige of the red shirt but he seems to be more interested in playing for Liverpool than going places.

I can't help but feel extremely underwhelmed by them. And at this point, I would rather have someone like Mascherano with his never-say-die spirit and giving it 100% every game to win, even if he saw us as a stepping stone for greater things. And that's what I feel worst about it. Our players lack blind ambition. We have bar Bellamy and Suarez, no one who would push a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs if it gave them a 0.00001% advantage and brought them closer to the win.

[Terry de Niro]

I never, ever thought I'd ever say this but we're in dire need of a major clear out.
I would rather see kids come in and give their all than watch that absolute surrender with so-called established finished articles against a team who have been shite all season.
It looked like Barcelona v Tranmere at times.
Stoke last week was bad enough but watching that earlier made me lose the will to live.

I really don't know where to start with any of that team that was selected, Bellamy aside.
No reflection on Kenny who obviously knows, judging by what he said.

[royhendo]

The thing is, seeing that team you thought "right, let's stuff these". Kenny's tactical nous was lacking on the day, as sometimes happens I suppose, but regardless, that was powder puff. Far too few were even angry about it.

Bolton played well, but it takes a bad showing to make Chris Eagles look like Messi.

[Yorkykopite]

I never, ever thought I'd ever say this but we're in dire need of a major clear out.
I would rather see kids come in and give their all than watch that absolute surrender with so-called established finished articles against a team who have been shite all season.
It looked like Barcelona v Tranmere at times.
Stoke last week was bad enough but watching that earlier made me lose the will to live.

I really don't know where to start with any of that team that was selected, Bellamy aside.
No reflection on Kenny who obviously knows, judging by what he said.

I have to say Terry that seems like a major over-reaction. The majority of those on the pitch have featured in some impressive displays this season. They've played some nice footy. You spare Bellamy I notice, but haven't a kind word for Henderson - a young lad who is improving all the time and seemed to be the only one, yesterday evening, who hadn't got his slippers out at the end.

I'd have to say as well that if you think we do need a major clear-out it's nonsensical to finish your post by saying "No reflection on Kenny". It would be a huge reflection on Kenny. If none of the players he's brought in are good enough and have to go it's only common-sense that Kenny goes with them.

[killer-heels]

I would like to defend Adam on one thing though, which is at least he appears to be putting in some effort and trying to make a difference, even if his laser is a bit off.

Then again, is his fluctuating form down to complacency or down to his inability to maintain his passing and effectiveness?

[Garstonite]

I would like to defend Adam on one thing though, which is at least he appears to be putting in some effort and trying to make a difference, even if his laser is a bit off.

Then again, is his fluctuating form down to complacency or down to his inability to maintain his passing and effectiveness?

It's all conducive isn't it? One misplaced pass leads to another and his head drops.

I could be wide of the mark here but he comes across as a bit of a fragile personality. That's the last thing you want in central midfield.

[Yorkykopite]

It's fundamental with Adam I fear. There's several things he can't do which ought to be part of a central midfielder's stock-in-trade.

For example, I've never seen him change direction with the ball. If he's committed to a pass to the left he will see it through to the bitter end no matter how long it takes to execute. If he's moving to the right with the ball he'll continue on that path even into a cul-de-sac.

Sure, not everyone can be Xabi Alonso and, with a little drag back, suddenly switch 180 degrees when they're on the ball. But Adam's apparent inability to change the picture means parts of the field are forever closed to him. It also means he can't do what all top-class central midfielders can do when they have the ball - that is, persuade or force opponents into a particular area of the pitch by sending out signals he has no intention of following himself (false flags if you like). Adam makes his mind up what he's going to do with the ball and that's what he's going to do - whatever happens. It's a real old-fashioned way of playing.

He prefers the ball to come to him too. He seems to want his teammates to do all the moving. It's they who must find him with a pass as he stands his ground, rooted to the spot. It's they who must get close to opponents who have the ball.

You get the feeling that the lad was talked up so much by the English press last season that Kenny fell for it. I can't imagine that we did our homework and actually examined him over several weeks at Blackpool (as they plummeted back to the Championship with Charlie in their 'engine-room').

 

[Garstonite]

Is the midfield solution within the club? I'm thinking Shelvey. Or maybe a punt on Joey Barton who, for years now, has been the second best English centre-midfielder (after Parker).

You really believe that about Barton?

[Yorkykopite]

You really believe that about Barton?

Ha ha. I do mate. I'm talking purely about his technical ability and understanding of the game. I don't think he's quite in the Parker class who - bafflingly - was ignored by England managers until very recently. But he does know how to play that role and he knows that solutions usually come in stages rather than - as England centre-mids have done for as long as I can remember - in one piece of magic by one player that splits an entire defence.

EDIT: I take it as read that Gerrard is an attacker or attacking midfielder so I exempt him from the competition. Sad to see him yesterday trying to play a role for which he's not equipped.

[Garstonite]

Ha ha. I do mate. I'm talking purely about his technical ability and understanding of the game. I don't think he's quite in the Parker class who - bafflingly - was ignored by England managers until very recently. But he does know how to play that role and he knows that solutions usually come in stages rather than - as England centre-mids have done for as long as I can remember - in one piece of magic by one player that splits an entire defence.

I like him as a player, but I don't think I'd go as far as to say he's been England's second best central-midfielder. I think Lampard is underrated around these parts on the influence he has on dictating the pace of games (showed tactical nous when asked to man-mark Xabi in 2009 too). Same goes for Carrick.

Barton would have been a solid acquisition in the summer though. He wouldn't have gone hiding like many of our players yesterday either.

[Yorkykopite]

I like him as a player, but I don't think I'd go as far as to say he's been England's second best central-midfielder. I think Lampard is underrated around these parts on the influence he has on dictating the pace of games (showed tactical nous when asked to man-mark Xabi in 2009 too). Same goes for Carrick.

Barton would have been a solid acquisition in the summer though. He wouldn't have gone hiding like many of our players yesterday either.

Yes, I'm one of those who probably underrates Lampard. Carrick though has an inferiority complex and it prevents him taking the field against good teams believing he can win. That's fatal. And Barton doesn't suffer from that  .

[the 92A]

Adam is being exposed, which in someway is unfair because he could be a decent squad player because he has football ability and with the right players can contibute  to a balanced team but what he lacks is what my Dad would have called 'a football brain' and at the moment without Lucas and a clever outlet like Suarez he looking static. Problem seems magnified because in games like that we really need someone in the middle capable of dictating play which unfourtunately is Adams weakness.

[Garstonite]

I'll tell you what, if there's any positive to take from yesterday, it's this Round Table. It's been a while since I've bothered engaging in a debate on this site.

Not that anyone outside the Writer's Forum will ever see it.

[the 92A]

For pass and move to really be successful you need the skill to play it, keeping your nerve and close one twos counterintuitively requires great skill, which this season we've proved we can do, but it also requires great movement, especially in the crucial areas in the centre and up front and this is where we have problems when things start going wrong. We can go from looking good to very limited quickly, then confidence further impacts our movement. We're not that far off but we're crying out for  players with intellegence who can lead  in the key areas when things need switching

[Aristotle]

I have to say Terry that seems like a major over-reaction. The majority of those on the pitch have featured in some impressive displays this season. They've played some nice footy. You spare Bellamy I notice, but haven't a kind word for Henderson - a young lad who is improving all the time and seemed to be the only one, yesterday evening, who hadn't got his slippers out at the end.

I'd have to say as well that if you think we do need a major clear-out it's nonsensical to finish your post by saying "No reflection on Kenny". It would be a huge reflection on Kenny. If none of the players he's brought in are good enough and have to go it's only common-sense that Kenny goes with them.

I think clearout is an overreaction but I agree, up to a point. If the thought of losing their precious paycheck and prestige is what it takes to light a fire under their arse, then by all means issue a press release saying they're done here. Some of the players seem painfully struck with what is becoming the standard mentality for English based players and that's accepting mediocrity for a paycheck. To quote myself from a few months ago, it still feels the same way and even though Charlie Adam is from Scotland, the same still applies.

Playing for your national team is the pinnacle for most countries, England just isn't one of them. The amount of shit players who have caps by the dozen is shocking and the way the FA handles everything around the team is sickening.

Shaun Wright-Phillips has one less than Steve McManaman and could pass him. Phil Neville has more caps than Phil Neal. Kieron Dyer has more caps than Terry McDermott. Peter Crouch and Jermaine Defoe have more caps than Robbie Fowler and Roger Hunt. John Terry has more than Tony Adams. Heskey is one cap away from matching Alan Shearer and Kevin Keegan and has more than both Ian Wright and Peter Beardsley. Joe Cole is one away from Paul Gascoigne.

That's just a few examples of mindfuckingly bizarre decisions and highlights what a farce "team" England is. I mean David Beckham has 115 caps FFS!

Look at other powerhouses of international football. Argentina have the likes of Zanetti, Ayala, Simone, Maradona, Batistuta, Mascherano at the top of their list. Brazil have Cafu, Carlos, Ronaldo, Pele, Dunga. Spain have Casillas, Xavi, Raul, Puyol, Hierro, Alonso. Italy have Cannavaro, Zoff, Maldini, Buffon, Zambrotta, Del Piero, Tardelli, Baresi, Bargomi. Germans have Matthäus, Klinsmann, Kohler, Beckenbauer, Ballack, Vogts, Ruminegge, Schweinsteiger, Völler, Lahm, Kahn.


The tradition of playing for England with pride and passion has been in free fall since the '66 World Cup win and the number of caps is nothing more than a pissing contest between millionares as they play golf amongst each other in their country mansions.

I just can't shake the feeling that too many of our regulars feel they have peaked already and aren't ready to put it all on the line to go further. In a sense it's what kept the FA cup going all these years and in another what's becoming the standard in the English game. You do enough and hope to hit a cup run because that is all your career will ever be. I think it's why we have a very decent shot of winning both the cups, but not a snowball's chance in hell of doing the league.

30 years from now, balancing grandkids on each knee telling them of their illustrious careers how will they reflect on the day they signed for Liverpool? Suarez came here to win things that's fairly obvious. Bellamy came here to set it right from Athens and put his body on the line for Kenny. Enrique came to play in the CL and earn his place in the World and European champions squad, he's said as much. Henderson looks set to be working his socks of to make it here. Coates is too early to tell, but he's come here with a lot of potential and done his best. But what about the others. I mean does anyone really see Stewart Downing as the type who came for his joy of the game and passion, bordering on obsessive, to win? Adam came here because it's the greatest thing he will ever do in football. He peaked the moment he signed his name on the dotted line. He'll never move to La Liga or Serie A and pick up trophies for fun once he's done at Liverpool. Once he's signed for Liverpool he's not going higher in England and the Scottish NT isn't exactly overflowing with talent to keep him on his toes on that front. And how about dear old Andy Carroll. You can almost see the direct quotes in his tell-all autobiography "I never really wanted to leave Newcastle. But the board needed the money and my representatives and agent told me that putting in a transfer request was the right career move. So I did and I left my childhood dreams behind and signed for Liverpool."


Kenny might be a winner. In fact that's all he knows and given the time that mindset will be firmly imprinted into the likes of Henderson, Kelly, Spearing, Shelvey et al. But for the others, that's time we don't have and a luxury we can't afford. We went for "proven quality" and in theory reliability and buying something you know makes sense. But the harsh reality of the matter is that we've traded in racecars for minivans.

[Aristotle]

Adam is being exposed, which in someway is unfair because he could be a decent squad player because he has football ability and with the right players can contibute  to a balanced team but what he lacks is what my Dad would have called 'a football brain' and at the moment without Lucas and a clever outlet like Suarez he looking static. Problem seems magnified because in games like that we really need someone in the middle capable of dictating play which unfourtunately is Adams weakness.

But that's exactly the point Garstonite was making earlier. Taking over from Alonso and Mascherano, in a team that was crumbling down Lucas arose from the ashes like the pheonix. But with Adam, unless he's holding on to the coat tail of others around him he looks like a goldfish taken out of his bowl where he was in fact master of the universe and put in the ocean where even the smallest of fish steamroll him.

[the 92A]

I normally agree with Terry but disagree on a clear out, I believe our problems come from what I mentioned above, if things start going wrong and we don't have the players to change it in key areas, you can see the panic start to spread out and confidence players like johnson and downing heads go down and they try to disapear.

[Col]

Having spoken to various 'intelligent' individuals over the past few weeks, I have a question to ask - when do we start questioning Kenny?

On the one hand, he's a legend who deserves time and respect; On the other hand his buys so far have been hit-and-miss at best, we're clueless in the final third and reluctant to get bodies in the box, and he's been out-thought by   Tony Pulis and Owen Coyle recently.


As much as we all love him, he's gotten as much wrong as he has right, so when does the buck stop?

[the 92A]

But that's exactly the point Garstonite was making earlier. Taking over from Alonso and Mascherano, in a team that was crumbling down Lucas arose from the ashes like the pheonix. But with Adam, unless he's holding on to the coat tail of others around him he looks like a goldfish taken out of his bowl where he was in fact master of the universe and put in the ocean where even the smallest of fish steamroll him.

But that is because Lucas has both the bottle and crucially the game intellegence to do that, which is the one thing that Adam lacks, which is alright if you have others around you who can compensate but at the moment we don't and that is why adam is being exposed and why it's effecting the team so much. However this one aspect lacking in his game doesn't mean he is useless because he has football ability and that is why I'd argue you get polar opposite views on Adam. He's a player who divides those who often agree.

I agree with Garstonite  on Adam, I fucking hate criticism of team that just singles out and scapegoats a player, the lads I go the match with know I never get on players backs but this season have been laughing going what's Adam done wrong for you to have a downer on him. All players have limitations, I'm trying to explain why Adams limitation is proving so crucial at the moment to the team. for me,understanding that means you realise that the team doesn't need starting again but needs improvement in crucial areas.