Topic: Do our defensive problems stem from the TYPE of keeper we have?

[Fordy]

The problem  is in the midfield, they cannot keep the ball,  they cannot effectively track back to defend,  they can not drive the team.

Ok let's blame the attack for our defensive problems as defence is meant to start from the front.

Let's all not blame our defense when it's them who can't defend.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Ok let's blame the attack for our defensive problems as defence is meant to start from the front.

Let's all not blame our defense when it's them who can't defend.

Yes. The defence operates independently from the midfield. There is no connection at all between defence and midfield, they are discrete aspects of the game.

Fuck defensive midfielders, who needs them.

You are always right.

[Upinsmoke]

I think it's certainly part of the problem. Reina conceded 42 (off the top of my head) in Brendan's first season and he made some pretty poor mistakes too for a keeper of his class. You then think we've spent quite a bit on the defense since then and were actually worse.

Absolutely brain dead decision selling him.

[Gnurglan]

I'm going to relate this to something that has confused me quite a lot in the way fans seem to think Rodgers wants his defence to play.

What evidence is there that Rodgers seriously wants to play a high, aggressive line with team pressing?

Under him we've never played that way - we don't look to catch teams offside, the back line doesn't push up aggressively, when there's pressure on the ball we sometimes don't push up at all. I know because of his philosophy of good technique and confident play in possession that people think the logical consequence of that defensively is that he wants us to play a high line; indeed, that generally is, and should be, the natural follow-up to a focus on good possession and circulation of the ball. The problem is we've never particularly done that under him.

Of course there were moments last season, particularly in the last few months where we pressed very aggressively and very well. But there are caveats to that. For one, the defence still never played a particularly aggressive, high line - they reflexively dropped off deep. It's been a feature under Rodgers - the space conceded between the lines. Even when we pressured really well last season, there were still moments when we left space behind the midfield and then if we weren't pressing (if the opponent broke through the pressure or if the triggers weren't there) then we often defended passively in shape, meaning it was easier to play into that space because of the lack of pressure on the ball. The default reaction from the back line under Rodgers has always been to fall back into the space behind rather than condense the space in front and that's often led to us being vulnerable between the lines.

You can say that that's a personnel thing - both Skrtel and Johnson for example prefer the 'safety' of falling back around the box. But if Rodgers REALLY wanted the team them to play compact with the midfield, if he really wanted the line to push up, if he really wanted to press as a team and be able to catch players offside, he could do it. It seems to me that he just doesn't concentrate that much on it in training. He's been at the club over two years; if he trained Skrtel to push up, to be aggressive in reacting to triggers, then Skrtel would do it. As it is, the line has always looked a touch uncoordinated under Rodgers and it's often looked uncoordinated with how the rest of the team at times has played.

People also point out that by bringing Lovren and Sakho in he has shown that he wants the defence to be proactive and to play a high line. But it was fairly clear when Lovren came in (at least it was to me) that the first-choice partnership was going to be him and Skrtel. If Rodgers wanted to implement an aggressive, high-pushing defensive line simply through changing personnel, then why would he continue to play Skrtel as his first-choice?

That brings us to Mignolet. It's fairly clear that Mignolet is not a goalkeeper who  has sort of aggression of the line that a Pepe Reina has, certainly not a Valdes or a Neuer. Again, if Rodgers really wanted to play a high line, why do you think he would sign Mignolet?

Either he's not at all thinking about it or he simply isn't that interested in getting the team to play a high line. Because he doesn't seem to spend too much focus in training on getting them to do that and because he's hardly assembled the personnel in defence that are ideal to play it either, it shows me that he's not that interested in implementing it.

Good analysis.
If it was up to you, how would you try and improve the side now? If you were to advice Rodgers, what would be your starting point? Would you, for example, go for a new keeper and start from the back?

[Fordy]

Yes. The defence operates independently from the midfield. There is no connection at all between defence and midfield, they are discrete aspects of the game.

Fuck defensive midfielders, who needs them.

You are always right.

To put the blame on the midfield is a joke.

So who do the midfielders blame? The defenders?

Who do our forwards blame for not scoring? The keeper?

Learn to take responsibility. Defenders main job is to defend and Rodgers teams are poor at defending.

Maybe it's Rodgers who needs to look at his record and realise that maybe he needs help with the defensive side of the game.

[JJ Red]

The Mignolet issue/signing is as perplexing to me as the Balotelli signing. The thing is we seemed to identify him early on in the process as opposed to Balotelli who seemed to be a moneyball signing at the end of a window.

We had Reina at the time who, while not in the best of form, was comfortable playing the sort of role that BR seems to want his keepers to play. Reina was comfortable on the ball (for a GK) and was happy playing the sweeper role even though he had lost a bit of his speed.

Mignolet, an excellent shot stopper, is very very uncomfortable acting as the sweeper and patroling the edge of the box. He is also not comfortable with the ball at his feet.

I have nothing against Mignolet, in the exact same way that i have nothing against Balotelli, they both just seem like irregular puzzle pieces that don't fit what the manager is trying to do.

[007.lankyguy]

Good analysis.
If it was up to you, how would you try and improve the side now? If you were to advice Rodgers, what would be your starting point? Would you, for example, go for a new keeper and start from the back?

In the summer I thought we should've been looking for a midfielder or two who could control the flow of a game and could orchestrate the team v low blocks because I knew after the Chelsea game (and to an extent the game we won 2-1 against Sunderland in March) that teams were going to be much more cautious against us this season. When we didn't sign that type of player, it seemed obvious to me that we should have been looking to take one of the best aspects in our best performances from last season (the counter attack) and effectively build around that.

So for me, we should be restructuring the team to be much more compact and play on the transition. That means working on control of space, particularly in midfield, working on the backline in getting them to defend in a coordinated manner with each other and with the rest of the team, and opening up space to attack into.

I don't think that necessarily means, transfer-wise, that we start from the back. We need a number of new players throughout our spine - new GK, new RCB, new holding midfielder, possibly even new CM, and obviously a new striker. If you were to rank those in importance, I think a new striker would actually come first, followed by a holding midfielder, then GK, then CB.

Right now, it's not just a case of finding new players in our problem positions - we need to find a base, an identity, because currently we don't have one. When Rodgers came in, he promised that we'd always have an identity to our system. He adjusted it after a few months but we still had an identity. Last season, we saw the fruits of that - we were dynamic, we were pacy, we were aggressive, we were vibrant. This season we've lost that and Rodgers, as of yet, has not focused on finding a tactical base to re-build off, which is why we aren't looking strong in any area. More than anything else I think he needs to find that base, that identity, that we can concentrate on to rescue this season. It seems obvious to me that he should restructure the team to make it more compact and target the transition.

[stoj]

It's a myriad of having a goal-line keeper who doesn't command his box, attacking full backs, not operating with a defensive midfielder - or defensively adequate midfielders - and also forwards that don't do much defending either. You defend from the front. We also aren't defensively well drilled and organised.

Compare that to Chelsea at the moment and that's why Cahill and Terry are being made to look good and whoever plays centre half for Liverpool ends up looking awful.

Agreed on every point.  Where has our pressing game gone? Possibly Barcelona? TBF to Luis, he spearheaded this and in turn kicked the others into action

[kcbworth]

It could be, but I don't think our defence was any worse last year (with Mignolte) than the previous year (with Reina), and in fact may have even be slightly better, so not sure

Clearly the defence has gone backwards dramatically since Kenny's first 2 half seasons here, where they looked to be one of the best in the league (although they looked poor under Hodgson also)!

[JackWard33]

To put the blame on the midfield is a joke.

Our regular centre backs (skrtel and lovren) are among the top 7 CBs in the league in terms of number of clearances they make
That puts them in among CBs that play for Hull, Villa and Burnley
They're more exposed than any top half table side so .... yeah .. our midfield is partly to blame

[L666KOP]

Our regular centre backs (skrtel and lovren) are among the top 7 CBs in the league in terms of number of clearances they make
That puts them in among CBs that play for Hull, Villa and Burnley
They're more exposed than any top half table side so .... yeah .. our midfield is partly to blame

For me, the blame should be laid at the management/scouting door.

Why do we buy defenders that are only 'secure' when played behind specialist DM's ?

Brendan doesn't use a DM, so scout players that are happy to defend, or use a DM ?

[G a r y]

He makes me nervous and I am watching in the stands. God knows what the defenders in front of him feel like.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

For me, the blame should be laid at the management/scouting door.

Why do we buy defenders that are only 'secure' when played behind specialist DM's ?

Brendan doesn't use a DM, so scout players that are happy to defend, or use a DM ?

Mate most top sides play with a specialist DM or CMs who can win the ball and cover the CBs. Man utd is the only team i can recall in recent history to not have played with a DM and winning things.

There are no magic defenders who can defend like gods with Gerrard in front of them in his current state.

[L666KOP]

Mate most top sides play with a specialist DM or CMs who can win the ball and cover the CBs. Man utd is the only team i can recall in recent history to not have played with a DM and winning things.

There are no magic defenders who can defend like gods with Gerrard in front of them in his current state.

We have a fucking big issue then don't we ?

Brendan plays Gerrard every game, in a position that needs a more suitable player, we have a more suitable player.

So what do we do, persevere ?

No matter how we dress it up, or skirt the issue, or be afraid to speak for fear of retribution, Brendan is the problem it seems, or he knows something we don't ? Or there's things we don't know going on behind the scenes, and he's making a point ?

[BassTunedToRed]

Mignolet does seem to cause confusion in the defence, but what I don't get is that surely by now they must know that he prefers to be rooted to his line?

I also suspect we're trying to make him more of a sweeper keeper but it's just causing more confusion. He's receiving passes far higher up the pitch than he did last season, though of course this could be down to teams sitting deeper and/or having leads to protect more often, so the whole team moves further forward as a result.

As others have noted though, it's not Mig's fault that the team is giving away so many good chances (beyond the uncertainty he brings leading to defensive errors, I guess). We play an open game which would make a hell of a lot of centre-backs and GKs look a bit ropey I would imagine.

[Mutton Geoff]

Ok let's blame the attack for our defensive problems as defence is meant to start from the front.

Let's all not blame our defense when it's them who can't defend.

I would ask Rushie about being the first line of defence Fordy , nothing has changed,   you have a knack of being spectacularly wrong on so many things,  its almost a talent.

[Mutton Geoff]

As for Mignolet he doesn't inspire me with confidence but the bigger problems are in front of him.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

We have a fucking big issue then don't we ?

Brendan plays Gerrard every game, in a position that needs a more suitable player, we have a more suitable player.

So what do we do, persevere ?

No matter how we dress it up, or skirt the issue, or be afraid to speak for fear of retribution, Brendan is the problem it seems, or he knows something we don't ? Or there's things we don't know going on behind the scenes, and he's making a point ?

We're getting there slowly, after months of skirting round the issue.

[L666KOP]

We're getting there slowly, after months of skirting round the issue.

It's difficult to pin it down though isn't it.

We are being fed conflicting stories that make it difficult to know who's accountable.

[apocalypse]

Our defense was rubbish before Mignolet got here. We are into our third season of having a poor defense and I've seen little (if any) improvement during that time, regardless of who is playing. I know who I'm blaming for lack of improvement and it ain't the players.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Our defense was rubbish before Mignolet got here. We are into our third season of having a poor defense and I've seen little (if any) improvement during that time, regardless of who is playing. I know who I'm blaming for lack of improvement and it ain't the players.

There's a quote somewhere from Rodgers saying it's easy to set up defensively. Well either it's not or Rodgers doesn't want to.

[Ashburton]

They primarily stem from Brendan not being that great at defensive coaching.

Bit ironic that, considering as a pro he was a defender.

[Ashburton]

We have a fucking big issue then don't we ?

Brendan plays Gerrard every game, in a position that needs a more suitable player, we have a more suitable player.

So what do we do, persevere ?

No matter how we dress it up, or skirt the issue, or be afraid to speak for fear of retribution, Brendan is the problem it seems, or he knows something we don't ? Or there's things we don't know going on behind the scenes, and he's making a point ?

Lets assume that Gerrard gave England the finger so he could work on his club career at the club he loves, where he is a legend.  He came out early this season to say he isn't going to stop playing any time soon, he said he wants a new contract and would play elsewhere if he had to.  Rodgers drops Gerrard, after he sacrificed the national team and his further club career (he just won't be match fit), then he'd better damn well hope his results start turning around quickly.  Or not only is he on track to spend £130m and reduced the fluidity of the side, but has alienated the most influential player at the club and potentially his biggest ally if the going gets tough and he needs to be given support.   

[jonnypb]

Do we need more of a "sweeper" keeper

Let's sign Neuer from Bayern. He'd help out with our attacking options as well!

Don't think it's anything to do with migs, it wasn't great before he got here and we've spent a lot of money on defenders

[Gnurglan]

In the summer I thought we should've been looking for a midfielder or two who could control the flow of a game and could orchestrate the team v low blocks because I knew after the Chelsea game (and to an extent the game we won 2-1 against Sunderland in March) that teams were going to be much more cautious against us this season. When we didn't sign that type of player, it seemed obvious to me that we should have been looking to take one of the best aspects in our best performances from last season (the counter attack) and effectively build around that.

So for me, we should be restructuring the team to be much more compact and play on the transition. That means working on control of space, particularly in midfield, working on the backline in getting them to defend in a coordinated manner with each other and with the rest of the team, and opening up space to attack into.

I don't think that necessarily means, transfer-wise, that we start from the back. We need a number of new players throughout our spine - new GK, new RCB, new holding midfielder, possibly even new CM, and obviously a new striker. If you were to rank those in importance, I think a new striker would actually come first, followed by a holding midfielder, then GK, then CB.

Right now, it's not just a case of finding new players in our problem positions - we need to find a base, an identity, because currently we don't have one. When Rodgers came in, he promised that we'd always have an identity to our system. He adjusted it after a few months but we still had an identity. Last season, we saw the fruits of that - we were dynamic, we were pacy, we were aggressive, we were vibrant. This season we've lost that and Rodgers, as of yet, has not focused on finding a tactical base to re-build off, which is why we aren't looking strong in any area. More than anything else I think he needs to find that base, that identity, that we can concentrate on to rescue this season. It seems obvious to me that he should restructure the team to make it more compact and target the transition.

Being compact is a real necessity, isn't it? When we fail to score 2-3 per game, we need to improve at the other end. But if we target transition, how does that work with the players we have now? I assume Sterling and Lallana would be important, but how would we make it work up front?

(Apologies if we're taking this away from the keeper issue in the headline).

[diegoLFC7]

Brad Jones screams louder than Mignolet 

[Zoomers]

Agreed, it's all Mignolet fault.

He's also the reason why our attack is not scoring goals. I also heard he secretly injured Sturridge and told Suarez to fuck off.

[L666KOP]

Lets assume that Gerrard gave England the finger so he could work on his club career at the club he loves, where he is a legend.  He came out early this season to say he isn't going to stop playing any time soon, he said he wants a new contract and would play elsewhere if he had to.  Rodgers drops Gerrard, after he sacrificed the national team and his further club career (he just won't be match fit), then he'd better damn well hope his results start turning around quickly.  Or not only is he on track to spend £130m and reduced the fluidity of the side, but has alienated the most influential player at the club and potentially his biggest ally if the going gets tough and he needs to be given support.

I personally think, and I suspect the powers that be thought so too, that any issues with Luis leaving would be limited to our frontline. Daniel missing all but 3 games was never thought of, neither was Mario contributing so little. Couple this with the fact our 'forwards' seem to be out of sorts and we are were we are.
Like many on here, the movement by our strikers, or lack thereof has negated the need for Gerrard to play the role he played so well last year.
It looks like the coming together of a certain set of circumstances, last year the coming together gave us a shot at the title on the last day, this year it's going the other way.

I don't think anyone wants to see Gerrard binned, but I can't see the harm in trying out the midfield that worked so well in Madrid. It helped the defence out no end. That then gives us a midfield that offers protection to the back four, is solid in itself, and gives us a decent link man in Can. We then concentrate on tinkering with our forward line.

Everyone agrees that Stevie needs to be playing less.

[007.lankyguy]

Being compact is a real necessity, isn't it? When we fail to score 2-3 per game, we need to improve at the other end. But if we target transition, how does that work with the players we have now? I assume Sterling and Lallana would be important, but how would we make it work up front?

(Apologies if we're taking this away from the keeper issue in the headline).

Transition suits a number of our attacking players - Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson, Markovic, possibly Lallana as well. That combination of players will work when there is space to attack into - it's just a matter of working on it in training, going through transitions patterns, movements etc. When you also consider the way football is played in England, a team that controls space even half well and is deadly on the counter can have lots of joy (as Mourinho knows too well, hence why he suits the PL). It seems fairly obvious to me that Rodgers should definitely be considering changing the dynamic of the team towards that tactical base.

As for how we make it work up front, Sterling's an option, either to play with Balotelli or to play up front on his own (the former is preferable to me). Having said that, I think with that tactical idea and setup, I'd be giving Markovic a shot up front or just off Balotelli - he's a player that very much suits playing between the lines, going forward with the ball into space on the counter and either looking for the final pass or going for goal himself. Alright, he hasn't impressed too much so far but I think he can in such a setup. Playing him or Sterling either up front or just off Balotelli, with the other one behind, Coutinho free to look for penetrating passes into space, Henderson making good runs forward to support the attack - that can work in my opinion. Always have the option of rotating too, bringing in Lallana or Gerrard to join the attack as well.

[Gnurglan]

Transition suits a number of our attacking players - Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson, Markovic, possibly Lallana as well. That combination of players will work when there is space to attack into - it's just a matter of working on it in training, going through transitions patterns, movements etc. When you also consider the way football is played in England, a team that controls space even half well and is deadly on the counter can have lots of joy (as Mourinho knows too well, hence why he suits the PL). It seems fairly obvious to me that Rodgers should definitely be considering changing the dynamic of the team towards that tactical base.

As for how we make it work up front, Sterling's an option, either to play with Balotelli or to play up front on his own (the former is preferable to me). Having said that, I think with that tactical idea and setup, I'd be giving Markovic a shot up front or just off Balotelli - he's a player that very much suits playing between the lines, going forward with the ball into space on the counter and either looking for the final pass or going for goal himself. Alright, he hasn't impressed too much so far but I think he can in such a setup. Playing him or Sterling either up front or just off Balotelli, with the other one behind, Coutinho free to look for penetrating passes into space, Henderson making good runs forward to support the attack - that can work in my opinion. Always have the option of rotating too, bringing in Lallana or Gerrard to join the attack as well.

Like the idea. And I like your input. It's a constructive view on how we can progress from here.

What about the defence-midfield then? Who do we play to make us more compact? Or is that more a case of training and discipline, than choice of players?
I'd be tempted to look at the Madrid game. We didn't create a lot, but I thought we looked to have a purpose and there is something to build on there. If we could get that purpose and add those transitions, we might have something.

[007.lankyguy]

Like the idea. And I like your input. It's a constructive view on how we can progress from here.

What about the defence-midfield then? Who do we play to make us more compact? Or is that more a case of training and discipline, than choice of players?
I'd be tempted to look at the Madrid game. We didn't create a lot, but I thought we looked to have a purpose and there is something to build on there. If we could get that purpose and add those transitions, we might have something.

Agree about the away match vs Madrid. Though it was the most together we've looked as a team this season (with the exception of the Spurs game), even if we never really looked like getting anything out of it. It wasn't a perfectly executed defensive performance or even a very good one - the defensive movements weren't quite right in places, we still left gaps, we sometimes weren't quite coordinated enough as a team, but at least we actually looked like a team and that helps a great deal.

The problem I have with Rodgers (and I've pointed it out for a while, even last season) is that I don't think he focuses enough on training the team to control space effectively, particularly the back line. He could get Skrtel pushing out more if he wanted to, he could get the back line to defend more aggressively if he wanted to, he could get them to hold the line more if he wanted to. I just don't think he's that interested, which is a large reason why we haven't been that effective in controlling space, especially between the lines, since he came in.

Who we play in defence and deep midfield is a interesting one, especially in regards to staying more compact as a team. Toure and Sakho seems a far better option to me than Lovren and Skrtel; I'm certain they'd a least hold a better line and they wouldn't make any more errors than are currently being made (though Lovren and Skrtel is clearly Rodgers' first choice partnership and I can't see him dropping the both of them in a hurry).

It wouldn't even be a terrible idea to have Can play RCB either; considering Rodgers' setup against Newcastle with the positional shift to a back three when the team was in possession, I thought Can would have made a great deal of sense to play at the back in that game, especially considering that Newcastle's forwards were dropping off and marking Gerrard and Allen and leaving the back three free.

Having said that, I'd like to see Rodgers try playing Can at the base of midfield - I don't think it's his best position (the no.8 role is) but our options there aren't particularly great at the moment and he has attributes that I think make him a legitimate choice to play there; he's powerful, he's intelligent, he covers space well, he can play the ball out, he can win aerial battles (long balls from the opposition goalkeeper or crosses into the box when dropping into the back line). I like Lucas and I think we could maybe play him more often than we are doing but his mobility is a serious issue when a game is open and Rodgers doesn't seem to think that he offers enough to play regular football. Right now we need to find a way of controlling games much more effectively because we're not doing it in or out of possession and Can, though without the ability to play pinpoint long switches of play like Gerrard, is a much more solid option there, even if it won't be his long term role.

[Leosheer]

Grobbelaar on our goalkeeping problems and their impact (nothing new but a good summary of his views).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30201769

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

dont see it as an issue meself the goalkeeper.

he is ok although the coming off the line may help a little bit.

saying that we dont really play too high a line often....as the skrtel bashers will swear lol.

think the issues lie in a few things.
defensive organisation.
lack of the correct abilities defensively in our midfielders.

people will point to last season and yes the trade off for defensive insecurity was worth it because we had the best attacker by some way in the league.

now we dont have him the trade off is not there.

[lukeb1981]

Grobbelaar on our goalkeeping problems and their impact (nothing new but a good summary of his views).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30201769

No right to lay in to any of our players when he was taking money to throw our games.
A lot of the goals we conceded this season and last were very savable, he would be a good back up keeper ,but as for a number 1  ,no he has too many flaws in his game

[shanks_legend]

Yes.

We require a keeper that doesnt kick like a 9 year old girl

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Yes.

We require a keeper that doesnt kick like a 9 year old girl

had to lol @ the comment

even though we tend to play from the back and kicking is minimal

[vicgill]

He is part of the problem in that he seems glued to his line more often than not. I have noticed recently he has started punching everyone than trying to catch the ball which suggests his confidence is not what it should be.
Migs along with the back 4 and lack of midfield cover is the problem not one isolated by itself.

Fixed that for you, I would want to punch that flat back four, bloody dickheads they are

[vicgill]

Yes.

We require a keeper that doesn't kick like a 9 year old girl

what does a nine year old girl kick like ?

[vicgill]

He is part of the problem in that he seems glued to his line more often than not. I have noticed recently he has started punching everyone than trying to catch the ball which suggests his confidence is not what it should be.
Migs along with the back 4 and lack of midfield cover is the problem not one isolated by itself.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

So, it Simon's turn.... Great Fucking Festivus



Let start with the U-6 future LFC starlets and work our way up to the first team, and coaching staff - slag off each one like they are on a rotisseries spit.   

In the end, you'll never walk alone" marquee will have to be added to at Shankly Gate to include "because I will be reminding you of all the ways you disappoint me"