Topic: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?

[Oddball]

I understand it can be difficult. If it happens now and then we have to loan a player out, that's not a problem. The problem is how often we end up in the situation. The least we could do is offload the loans, since we've practically made our minds up about them.

Thats it though mate, how do you know whether or not the 3 you mentioned were given ways out and refused them resulting in a loan being the only way we saw some money back (their wages being paid). You dont in the same way I dont and are just guessing. Look at Borini. Wasnt it well documented that he refused to go to QPR and/or Sunderland? Its impossible to force a player to do something they dont want to do.

If we want to compete with the best, I believe we need to find our own way. I believe we need to go for a smaller squad, where we work a lot on keeping only the players we want/need. That way we can have room for an extra emergency signing and we're more likely to have cash available. What we shouldn't expect, is for us to compete by having the biggest squad. That's when you need an Abramovic to back it. I've been a bit of a parrot on here recently about a suggested model. It's an idea that we should only keep a match day squad of senior players.

The best right now are Chelsea...how many players do they have out on loan!

Again mate, I agree with you in principle, but we arnt privy to everything that goes on behind closed doors.

On the other hand are we supposed to be ecstatic about his shambolic DM performance vs Chelsea?

Oh dear. Shamblolic I forgot we conceded 9 with Gerrard being at fault for 11 of them

[SerbianScouser]

Oh dear. Shamblolic I forgot we conceded 9 with Gerrard being at fault for 11 of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yag2wxPnOio

How do you describe it?

[Gnurglan]

Thats it though mate, how do you know whether or not the 3 you mentioned were given ways out and refused them resulting in a loan being the only way we saw some money back (their wages being paid). You dont in the same way I dont and are just guessing. Look at Borini. Wasnt it well documented that he refused to go to QPR and/or Sunderland? Its impossible to force a player to do something they dont want to do.

The best right now are Chelsea...how many players do they have out on loan!

Again mate, I agree with you in principle, but we arnt privy to everything that goes on behind closed doors.

You're right, I don't know. What we can see, is the pattern. We find the same solution year after year. And our loans function as the last resort. It's the end station and everything becomes this tired, slow and unproductive move, just waiting to be over.
What the loans should be, is the opposite. A loan should, ideally, be about getting players up to speed. A loan should be the final station before they're playing for the first team. That way a loan is a reward. For us it's the slow death before a transfer out of the club.

I know we can't always get what we want, but IMO we're not even close. We're at the other end of the scale.

When we add the pieces together, what do we get? Players are unlikely to want to go on loan. We end up with lots of players. That means our young players have less of a chance. We'll have lots of players in a 'grey area', in undefined roles. So what do we expect from them? And it will cost us money. Which will mean we have less cash free to spend. We need to change this. It's really about giving Rodgers the best possible foundation. We need to improve everywhere. And this (transfers out) is an area we're weak in.

[GregCharrua]

In the long run, if you can't shift them it's surely better to get rid of them from the wage bill for a season. Also come the end of the season how much more are you likely to get for them if they've been on loan and played in a first team/shop window than had they stayed here and been out of sight playing for the reserves?

This. And Ilori I don't think is shop windowed - I just think he isn't ready to start being rotated in and we've had a glut of centerbacks at the club the past few years.

If we want to compete with the best, I believe we need to find our own way. I believe we need to go for a smaller squad, where we work a lot on keeping only the players we want/need. That way we can have room for an extra emergency signing and we're more likely to have cash available. What we shouldn't expect, is for us to compete by having the biggest squad. That's when you need an Abramovic to back it. I've been a bit of a parrot on here recently about a suggested model. It's an idea that we should only keep a match day squad of senior players.

It's when I connect these two things, that I feel we need to ensure the likes of Assaidi, Aspas and Alberto are sold. Immediately. Because they're already on the fringes and I think we need to sell another 5-6 players to get where I think we need to be. As long as the loanies are still on our books, they'll be a bit of an unsolved problem that steals energy from the real work we need to do.

Also this. We went a little crazy with the buys this past summer. I don't think we made bad buys, but making so many was going to be a guaranteed transition period, which after last season was going to load the team, the coach, and the club with tons of pressure.

Moreno, Lallana, Origi (loaned) and one quality striker would have been better business. Why not blood youth, already drilled in the club's and Rodger's style of play and expectations to fill roles besides?

Why not Ibe in the squad instead of Markovic (maybe if he was a little further along in development, the deal would have made more sense).

We could have paired Skrtel and Sakho and kept Wisdom around.

Rossiter, Williams, McLaughlin, Jones... all youth that could be called upon to fill places in the squad. Probably not going to be taking home the CL or League trophies but thats a solid, competitive squad on the same page.

I understand the counter argument for youth - Wisdom, Ibe are playing regular football and that's great for their development. Okay, then bring in someone on loan, not a major 20m signing (Lovren, Markovic, Balotelli) that might be hard to move on.

It's fun to play manager!

But in the end, these are problems that will get sorted. It's going to take some time and it's frustrating following a title challenge season, but that's all. We created the problem but time in training and in competitive matches is all that we need to start looking better. I hope.

[Tony19:6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yag2wxPnOio

How do you describe it?

You should be questioning the posters motivation to make such a selectively biased video.

Cant believe for one minute he 'supports' Liverpool

[SerbianScouser]

You should be questioning the posters motivation to make such a selectively biased video.

Cant believe for one minute he 'supports' Liverpool

Yes that`s the main issue, not what`s hurting us the most as a team but the good old `patriots vs traitors` debate.

[Gnurglan]

This. And Ilori I don't think is shop windowed - I just think he isn't ready to start being rotated in and we've had a glut of centerbacks at the club the past few years.



Also this. We went a little crazy with the buys this past summer. I don't think we made bad buys, but making so many was going to be a guaranteed transition period, which after last season was going to load the team, the coach, and the club with tons of pressure.

Moreno, Lallana, Origi (loaned) and one quality striker would have been better business. Why not blood youth, already drilled in the club's and Rodger's style of play and expectations to fill roles besides?

Why not Ibe in the squad instead of Markovic (maybe if he was a little further along in development, the deal would have made more sense).

We could have paired Skrtel and Sakho and kept Wisdom around.

Rossiter, Williams, McLaughlin, Jones... all youth that could be called upon to fill places in the squad. Probably not going to be taking home the CL or League trophies but thats a solid, competitive squad on the same page.

I understand the counter argument for youth - Wisdom, Ibe are playing regular football and that's great for their development. Okay, then bring in someone on loan, not a major 20m signing (Lovren, Markovic, Balotelli) that might be hard to move on.

It's fun to play manager!

But in the end, these are problems that will get sorted. It's going to take some time and it's frustrating following a title challenge season, but that's all. We created the problem but time in training and in competitive matches is all that we need to start looking better. I hope.

See, this is what I mean. Roles, small, but still roles for Ibe, Wisdom, Rossiter, Williams, McLaughlin, Jones and I'd add Ilori, Suso and even Flanagan. At a stretch Markovic. There could be more. How many are we talking about there? Nine players. We're talking about players who would be number 19-27 in our squad. Not first team players. Not even players we expect to be on the bench on a normal match day. These are the players we should send on loans and primarily on shorter loans.

Enrique, Johnson, Coates, Toure, Allen, Assaidi, Aspas, Alberto, (Markovic), Borini,... I bet those young players could take the majority of their roles in the squad. Now we're talking enough players to fill a match day squad. None of them are expected to start for us. Most wouldn't even be in the squad. It's ridiculous when we list them all. Does anyone seriously think our current way is the best way for us to compete?

[Tony19:6]

Yes that`s the main issue, not what`s hurting us the most as a team but the good old `patriots vs traitors` debate.

And that's exactly how this sites gone, we all have favourites and to be fair there's nowt wrong with that, it exists in all walks of life...everyone has the prettiest wife and all that...

That video for me is one of the worst examples of trying to put down a player to (more than likely) promote his/her own agenda

As I said they cannot possibly support Liverpool FC.

[TSC]

And that's exactly how this sites gone, we all have favourites and to be fair there's nowt wrong with that, it exists in all walks of life...everyone has the prettiest wife and all that...

That video for me is one of the worst examples of trying to put down a player to (more than likely) promote his/her own agenda

As I said they cannot possibly support Liverpool FC.

To be fair you could probably make a similar video of most of our players in most of our games this season.  Pretty sad that someone sat down and spent time creating that.  Even sadder to be posting it on here.

[SerbianScouser]

To be fair you could probably make a similar video of most of our players in most of our games this season.  Pretty sad that someone sat down and spent time creating that.  Even sadder to be posting it on here.

What`s truly sad though is seeing our best player ever allowing himself to get to this point where he`s putting in one of the worst DM performances you can see at this level for years instead of retiring on a high.

[4pool]

See, this is what I mean. Roles, small, but still roles for Ibe, Wisdom, Rossiter, Williams, McLaughlin, Jones and I'd add Ilori, Suso and even Flanagan. At a stretch Markovic. There could be more. How many are we talking about there? Nine players. We're talking about players who would be number 19-27 in our squad. Not first team players. Not even players we expect to be on the bench on a normal match day. These are the players we should send on loans and primarily on shorter loans.

Enrique, Johnson, Coates, Toure, Allen, Assaidi, Aspas, Alberto, (Markovic), Borini,... I bet those young players could take the majority of their roles in the squad. Now we're talking enough players to fill a match day squad. None of them are expected to start for us. Most wouldn't even be in the squad. It's ridiculous when we list them all. Does anyone seriously think our current way is the best way for us to compete?

Tbf... you never know until you know.

By that i mean a youngster can look above those around him and the opposition. Look a real good prospect. Until you get them in and give them a go. The science of judging talent is inexact.

Over the years we've brought in loads of youngsters. Most don't make it. Very few that we let go, go on to a career at the top levels. Not stars but competent players.

Remember Connor Coady? great midfielder in our youth and reserve teams. Some labelled the next Gerrard. ( well most local midfielders coming through gets that label). He had a cup of tea with the first team. Was our U21 captain. He's at Hudderfield Town now.

Just like Danny Guthrie who we sold to Newcastle for £2.5m because his path was blocked at midfield. He's at Reading now on a free transfer.

There are many others of similar tales. That's why we have so many young players, loan players, etc...we have to find which ones can break through at a "high" level that we require at Liverpool.

[Mutton Geoff]

with all the best will in the world there are two other threads for the Boring  circular, love Gerrard and Hate Gerrard factions to argue with  all the excitement of paint drying so frankly go and use them.

[El Torres gol]

This. And Ilori I don't think is shop windowed - I just think he isn't ready to start being rotated in and we've had a glut of centerbacks at the club the past few years.

Ilori is in my opinion a player who needs to come into a settled and more importantly confident side. So defo not at the moment then

[TSC]

What`s truly sad though is seeing our best player ever allowing himself to get to this point where he`s putting in one of the worst DM performances you can see at this level for years instead of retiring on a high.

Mmmm.  Well for a start you posted that video which was probably put together by a manc, because no sane LFC supporter would go to such trouble.  And if you genuinely think that it's 'Gerrard's' doing you need to take a look at the job description of the manager.  And you need to look at the state of not just our midfield but the whole team. 

How many goals from our collection of centre forwards?  How many clean sheets from our defence?  How many top class midfielders knocking on the door to mover Gerrard aside?

[Gnurglan]

Tbf... you never know until you know.

By that i mean a youngster can look above those around him and the opposition. Look a real good prospect. Until you get them in and give them a go. The science of judging talent is inexact.

Over the years we've brought in loads of youngsters. Most don't make it. Very few that we let go, go on to a career at the top levels. Not stars but competent players.

Remember Connor Coady? great midfielder in our youth and reserve teams. Some labelled the next Gerrard. ( well most local midfielders coming through gets that label). He had a cup of tea with the first team. Was our U21 captain. He's at Hudderfield Town now.

Just like Danny Guthrie who we sold to Newcastle for £2.5m because his path was blocked at midfield. He's at Reading now on a free transfer.

There are many others of similar tales. That's why we have so many young players, loan players, etc...we have to find which ones can break through at a "high" level that we require at Liverpool.

Agree. We can never know. Generally, I'd say that those who have been given a go have done well. By that I mean they've coped for the odd game here and there. I'm thinking of Robinson, Wisdom, Flanagan, Kelly, Plessis, Suso, Ibe, Sterling,... They've done enough (in some cases, think only of their first few games) to suggest that we shouldn't fear playing them. We should not rely on them for 20 games/season. That would be unfair. But for 5, maybe 10 games, we should be alright.

I think this is the way we need to dare to take. Get the youth involved. What's the worst that can happen? We lose because our kids are not good enough. We can easily fix that. We sign a more experienced player or two. The opposite, when we start with an extra player or three, will stifle the youth's progress. We won't get as many answers. I know it's a fine balance, but think we should go for less players than we have now.

[hansen6]

The problem is we lost Suarez and Sturridge, and Gerrard is showing his age. Three of the main players from last season.

[TSC]

The problem is we lost Suarez and Sturridge, and Gerrard is showing his age. Three of the main players from last season.

That's half the problem.  The other half being the replacements.

[Bobinhood]

Ya, well....

Skrtl has been top drawer excellent for about three full years and we are wasting his prime. No clean sheets be damned.

I specifically unblame the man Rafa signed instead when Vidicule went all Manc on us. I luv 'im. Nobody walks around Martin.

Right then, carry on.....'fucks goin on around here? 

[Fiasco]

What`s truly sad though is seeing our best player ever allowing himself to get to this point where he`s putting in one of the worst DM performances you can see at this level for years instead of retiring on a high.

One of the worst midfield performances at this level for years? Really? OK then. The thread title asks a pertinent question but I'd like to add another: Just what is wrong with the fans of Liverpool? Agenda-driving, scapegoat-making idiots who are so short-sighted it's laughable. Remove Gerrard and everything will OK, won't it? We'll suddenly score goals, we'll stop conceding them, other players will stop being tired and giving the ball away. Yeah, it's all the fault of our skipper.


People will start coming out saying he's the head of ISIS next.

[Redman0151]

Ya, well....

Skrtl has been top drawer excellent for about three full years and we are wasting his prime. No clean sheets be damned.

I specifically unblame the man Rafa signed instead when Vidicule went all Manc on us. I luv 'im. Nobody walks around Martin.

Right then, carry on.....'fucks goin on around here? 

Skrtel hasn't been top draw for 3 years. he's improved this season, but his goalscoring ability has completely masked the issues he caused us last year

[harryc]

You should be questioning the posters motivation to make such a selectively biased video.

Cant believe for one minute he 'supports' Liverpool

What do you suggest he edits the video with somebody else in place of Gerrard?

Your post sums up the problem with Brendan this season - can't see or accept the obvious

[SerbianScouser]

Agenda-driving, scapegoat-making idiots who are so short-sighted it's laughable.

Don`t be so hard on yourself. I`m sure you`ve got some good qualities.

[Fiasco]

Don`t be so hard on yourself. I`m sure you`ve got some good qualities.

Haha. I like you.

[Mutton Geoff]

Don`t be so hard on yourself. I`m sure you`ve got some good qualities.

Your only in here because HL hasn't found this thread yet!

[abs-ibs]

As I don't know how the players are trained, passing drills, runs, tactics etc it would be a little difficult for me to give a complete analysis of our situation as a team. Sometimes though I wonder whether it is a 'lost in translation' problem, from the coaching to the players.

If we look at Rodgers' first part of his tenure - it is almost identical to what is happening now - nothing quite clicked but there were signs that it could well go right in time.

Coutinho and Sturridge come in and then - CLICK, it might not be quite the same as Swansea's more fluid passing style but the speed of attack and ruthlessness was insane.

Fast forward to the present and the only player we have really lost is Suarez and to a degree Reina (but he was not here for last season so that is a bit moot). So where has the ruthlessness gone? where has our speedy passing to the forwards gone?

Is it purely down to the personnel? Is there something our newer players aren't quite understanding? if it was just the newer players then how is it that so many of the older more established players within our club are also under performing or misunderstanding?

I know teams are sitting back against us more after we demolished so many last year, but even when we do get put under pressure and we regain possession  the swift counter is not there. Doubly when the opposition have the ball where is the high line high pressurising of opponents?

I know Balotelli splits views and opinions but it can't all be placed at his feet - there are 10 other players with him on that pitch, 5 or so who are within his vicinity who also need to pressurize. Are our players not being drilled on the training ground on how to pressure the opposition high up the pitch?

I really don't understand how we have gone from a style that struggled, clicked as a more counter attacking side, then added a high pressure dimension to the bow of tactics,using speed and energy then back to a possession based team that is again struggling.

I'm not a coach, I don't have the answers but I hope Brenden really turns this around. We played some awesome football the last year and a half up until now, and as a manager I do like the bloke, but I hope his belief in possession football doesn't become his downfall.

I think it was Bruce Lee who basically said wing chun had too many forms which were unnecessary and through those forms weaknesses could be exploited, it was better to adapt and change to make sure the opponent could never easily anticipate your next attack. At the moment Brendan needs to take a leaf out of that book and quickly do something before it is too late for us and too late for his LFC managerial career.

[Tony19:6]

What do you suggest he edits the video with somebody else in place of Gerrard?

Your post sums up the problem with Brendan this season - can't see or accept the obvious

No the point youve missed the point completely.

Surely no LFC fan would go to so much trouble to make a video like that of ANY Liverpool player and post the thing on here and youtube ffs. No matter what their agenda.

[Upinsmoke]

The more I think about the contrast to the first two seasons and this season the more I'm infuriated about it.

We've never had good transfer success in the market bar Sturridge and Coutinho. We've been below average, but it never stopped us playing good football and showing potential, until this season.

I've never seen Brendan be more stubborn. I've never seen him manage the players as poorly as he has. From resting sterling against villa, to giving him 120vs middlesbrough. Taking him out of his most influential position and leaving him isolated and marked on the wing. Letting villa do us again on the counter, letting fat Sam hoof it in the box and look completely unprepared. Playing Gerrard three times a week, resting the players who played crap against Newcastle for ones who looked better against Madrid and praising them to then drop them again against Chelsea. So now every player on the fringes knows no matter how well they play they can't get back in the team.

Brendan was laughing when Balotelli missed the target against Spurs, I take it it's not a laughing matter anymore?

[Pistolero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yag2wxPnOio

How do you describe it?

Have you really got fuckall better to do with your time than post a video put together by some Manc / Chelsea prick?...

[vblfc]

Agree. We can never know. Generally, I'd say that those who have been given a go have done well. By that I mean they've coped for the odd game here and there. I'm thinking of Robinson, Wisdom, Flanagan, Kelly, Plessis, Suso, Ibe, Sterling,... They've done enough (in some cases, think only of their first few games) to suggest that we shouldn't fear playing them. We should not rely on them for 20 games/season. That would be unfair. But for 5, maybe 10 games, we should be alright.

I think this is the way we need to dare to take. Get the youth involved. What's the worst that can happen? We lose because our kids are not good enough. We can easily fix that. We sign a more experienced player or two. The opposite, when we start with an extra player or three, will stifle the youth's progress. We won't get as many answers. I know it's a fine balance, but think we should go for less players than we have now.

The amount of "misses" or compromise buys we seem to have (which we then often evolve to loans) gives the impression that we are not just scouting for talent and fit for us, we are also dealing in players worth/value growth like a commodity/business.  It's something that concerns me about the moneyball thinking.  Rather than finding the right players and if they don't fit, take rapid action to address it- we are often apparently dealing in these players to increase their value - with that in mind we take a punt based on potential value growth, but Brendan doesn't need the player based on fit.  A businessman or investor would say that makes sense and I understand it to an extent.  However a football fan would say that we need every asset, every penny to go towards making our squad better, especially with the context/competition getting tougher, other squads getting better. 
It feels like we are doing a bit of both improving our squad and dealing in players value growth.  Not sure we can afford that at the cost of core squad at the moment.  Can be that FSG are prepared to just buy and sell purely for value growth.

[4pool]

The amount of "misses" or compromise buys we seem to have (which we then often evolve to loans) gives the impression that we are not just scouting for talent and fit for us, we are also dealing in players worth/value growth like a commodity/business.  It's something that concerns me about the moneyball thinking.  Rather than finding the right players and if they don't fit, take rapid action to address it- we are often apparently dealing in these players to increase their value - with that in mind we take a punt based on potential value growth, but Brendan doesn't need the player based on fit.  A businessman or investor would say that makes sense and I understand it to an extent.  However a football fan would say that we need every asset, every penny to go towards making our squad better, especially with the context/competition getting tougher, other squads getting better. 
It feels like we are doing a bit of both improving our squad and dealing in players value growth.  Not sure we can afford that at the cost of core squad at the moment.  Can be that FSG are prepared to just buy and sell purely for value growth.

You don't understand moneyball.

[TSC]

Maybe it's best to turn the OP around and ask what is going right at Liverpool?  Frankly you could say the new commercial deals, tv deals, CL qualification and increased ticket prices are bringing in the wonga. 

[vblfc]

You don't understand moneyball.

Probably.  I still think that business decisions and football decisions are being mixed with some of our dealings/loans etc.

[4pool]

Probably.  I still think that business decisions and football decisions are being mixed with some of our dealings/loans etc.

Moneyball works best when a team wins. Winning things lifts the value of all the players. You pay players based on performances. And you know when to cash in as their performances wane.

You're not buying "cheap" to turn a profit later on as some seem to think. You're buying to assemble a team, a winning team. Football (baseball) comes first. That is why the Red Sox have won after years of perennial failures . That is why Liverpool is being built that way too. To win.

[KFC]

1. We scored 100+ goals last season but 50 of them were scored by the 2 players which were not playing in the team now.

2. We have done a Spurs in the transfer market.

3. The fans are having unrealistic expectations about this season.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

3. The fans are having unrealistic expectations about this season.

Is that something that's going wrong?

[Illmatic]

This group can turn it around but it needs to start now. If we dont pick up 5 or 6 wins from our next league games then we can forget about a Champions League place.

Dont think Rodgers should get any money in January either. The squad is good enough to be doing better.

We should alway be looking to strengthen should the right players become available. Once you loose faith in the managers ability to sign players it's to move him on.

[Anfield Ed]

This group can turn it around but it needs to start now. If we dont pick up 5 or 6 wins from our next league games then we can forget about a Champions League place.

Dont think Rodgers should get any money in January either. The squad is good enough to be doing better.

The forward line (minus Sturridge) simply is not good enough. Neither is the central defence. But I get your point. Personally I'd give Brendan the funds to buy a striker or a DM. and tell him that if he wants to buy other players in January he will need to sell to buy. It may not be a popular policy however we still have to integrate the players bought in the summer.

[L666KOP]

Moneyball works best when a team wins. Winning things lifts the value of all the players. You pay players based on performances. And you know when to cash in as their performances wane.

You're not buying "cheap" to turn a profit later on as some seem to think. You're buying to assemble a team, a winning team. Football (baseball) comes first. That is why the Red Sox have won after years of perennial failures . That is why Liverpool is being built that way too. To win.

Hi mel(If I may call you that  )

My impression of Moneyball is that selling for profit, per se, is a by product.

Not necessarily buying to flip, but buying to extract what we can. At the best possible price we can.

[Gnurglan]

The amount of "misses" or compromise buys we seem to have (which we then often evolve to loans) gives the impression that we are not just scouting for talent and fit for us, we are also dealing in players worth/value growth like a commodity/business.  It's something that concerns me about the moneyball thinking.  Rather than finding the right players and if they don't fit, take rapid action to address it- we are often apparently dealing in these players to increase their value - with that in mind we take a punt based on potential value growth, but Brendan doesn't need the player based on fit.  A businessman or investor would say that makes sense and I understand it to an extent.  However a football fan would say that we need every asset, every penny to go towards making our squad better, especially with the context/competition getting tougher, other squads getting better. 
It feels like we are doing a bit of both improving our squad and dealing in players value growth.  Not sure we can afford that at the cost of core squad at the moment.  Can be that FSG are prepared to just buy and sell purely for value growth.

Hope that's not what we are doing. Even if it is, I don't think it's working.

[L666KOP]

Hope that's not what we are doing. Even if it is, I don't think it's working.

Hedge fund manager.

Venture capitalists.

I don't want to believe it because I'm 45 and Bob was my hero, but Suarez was a wet dream.