Topic: One up front

[Kennys from heaven]

Am watching another performance where YET AGAIN we are losing possession and being pulled all over the place up front because we only have one up there.

This team looks frigging awful with a lone striker. Shocking. Having Sturridge back can't come quick enough and I am so fucking glad that Brendan has told England to fuck off.

You could argue that the midfield is not supporting enough, but in places we're just lumping balls to Mario and he's getting mugged, holding off two players. We're not getting behind teams or causing them enough trouble. The football from last season is nowhere to be seen, apart from a cameo, almost teasing, appearance against Spurs.

We're all over the place. One up front just does not cut it.

[12Kings]

it did last season...

[Caligula?]

It's not working to say the least.

[RideTheWalrus]

it did last season...

We played with two for the vast majority of it.

[El Lobo]

One up front would be a fucking joy. None is a lot more difficult.

Still, least you had a good time Mario.

[Hazell]

You were typing the OP during the game?

[deadsetred]

Exactly, if you think simply changing the formation is gonna help us, then youre in for bad news.

When Sturridge was injured and we had Suarez up top last season, we still played beautiful football. The team played with energy, won the ball back high up the pitch, and scared teams.

I don't know how it all works, but we've lost that 100% this season.

We don't deserve top 4, and don't deserve to pass the group stages in CL with the crap we're dishing up so far.

I'm a bit disappointed that Brendan has let things get this bad. Still early, but the signs aren't good.

[Loo Pan]

We're all over the place. One up front just does not cut it.

Two up front didn't cut it against West Ham. It's not the system.

[KiNki]

The one upfront isnt the issue.  Its the players behind him offering fuck all service and fuck all support to henderson and gerrard.  Its like playing with ten men every game. 

Raheem was awful cos he's our soul creative force.  Countinho has been awful every single game and still gets the nod, markovic annoymous, still gets a game. 

I weep for suso and jordan ibe.

Fortunately it wont last cos lallana is near fitness and sturridge is on the way back.

[Kennys from heaven]

it did last season...

And since when does what we done last season count in this?

All the games we've played (bar Spurs - as mentioned) we've looked fucking awful. Perhaps it is because the midfield is not supporting well enough? Whatever it is, it's just not looking good. There's not enough up there to make defenders think or wonder who to mark. Mario's not getting space because he's getting leapt on every time he gets the ball. There's no one to share the load. Incidentally, it's putting too much emphasis on Raheem as well which is so bloody obvious and easy to play against.

[deadsetred]

We played with two for the vast majority of it.

That's beyond missing the point. We did to accommodate Sturridge and Suarez. Suarez often played central, and Sturridge played wide forward, not as a second striker.

Also when Sturridge was out, Suarez played lone striker and our structure was far more coherent then than it is now.

Sorry, but its not just a matter of playing two up front, although it may help for the time being.

[lalchitri]

Does Balotelli count as a one up front?

[RedEire]

it did last season...

in the matches we played one up top last year we looked shocking too and struggled in tho matches but did manage to win.

[mart356]

I dont think Balotelli was even a one up front tonight to be honest, he was awful. We need 2, I'd put Sterling up front with Balo and give him licence to roam ala Sturidge, with Coutinho/Markovic behind in a diamond.

[mkferdy]

My biggest issue I have with our current issues was moving away from the diamond formation to play 4-2-3-1.

We played with such pace and movement last year yet for whatever reason we decide to move away from that.

Questions need to be asked about our recruitment over the summer as it's been such a cluster fuck. Both fullbacks suit the diamond as does Lallana yet the other signings do not at all. What we are left with is a complete bunch of strangers who have no idea where each player should be where to run etc.

To decide to make so many signings not suited to last years system during a champions league season where we do not have the time to implement ideas on the training ground needs to be held accounted for.

Yes we have injuries in midfield however I feel this 4-2-3-1 set up is to allow Gerrard and Henderson to remain on the pitch longer limiting there amount of running on the pitch.

Spending £20 million on a left sides defender when we had a perfectly good one signed the precious summer for £18 million again seems a crazy decision.

We have spent a fortune over the summer yet we are relying on a 19yr old kid is crazy.

[Nosss]

Don't think the problem is the system as much as the personnel and the way we're playing it. Balotelli's not making runs that our other attackers are looking for.

It's worth noting that even when we play the diamond we don't look like a team in form.

[Kennys from heaven]

That's beyond missing the point. We did to accommodate Sturridge and Suarez. Suarez often played central, and Sturridge played wide forward, not as a second striker.

Also when Sturridge was out, Suarez played lone striker and our structure was far more coherent then than it is now.

Sorry, but its not just a matter of playing two up front, although it may help for the time being.

Its not missing the point - it it the point that for the vast majority of last season we did play with two up front. You're right on the count that when we did play with one up front last year we looked coherent, but then my second point and observation came into it - we had support from the midfield. We pressed. we played with tempo.

Whether we done it to accommodate the two of them is irrespective. It worked. It made defenders work and pulled them out of position. We're not doing that at all lately.

[redbyrdz]

Been saying this for a while.

[Kennys from heaven]

Don't think the problem is the system as much as the personnel and the way we're playing it. Balotelli's not making runs that our other attackers are looking for.

Think that's doing the lad a massive disservice. He's moving all across the back line, but the ball is being humped to him out wide and he's having to hold it up in positions and wait for mainly non-existent support to come.

Carra has just hit the nail on the head - where's the goals coming from? We're pedestrian in attack at best, although I think Lallana will make a huge difference, as will Allen and Can, but we need to have someone up there with Mario to take the load off.

[Kennys from heaven]

My biggest issue I have with our current issues was moving away from the diamond formation to play 4-2-3-1.

We played with such pace and movement last year yet for whatever reason we decide to move away from that.

Questions need to be asked about our recruitment over the summer as it's been such a cluster fuck. Both fullbacks suit the diamond as does Lallana yet the other signings do not at all. What we are left with is a complete bunch of strangers who have no idea where each player should be where to run etc.

To decide to make so many signings not suited to last years system during a champions league season where we do not have the time to implement ideas on the training ground needs to be held accounted for.

Yes we have injuries in midfield however I feel this 4-2-3-1 set up is to allow Gerrard and Henderson to remain on the pitch longer limiting there amount of running on the pitch.

Spending £20 million on a left sides defender when we had a perfectly good one signed the precious summer for £18 million again seems a crazy decision.

We have spent a fortune over the summer yet we are relying on a 19yr old kid is crazy.

We needed strength in depth and we've had shit injuries earlier on. I think the signing's we've made will come good on the whole (I cant wait to see Can have a run in the side) Who knows? Think though that the formation we're playing does not suit the players we currently have available.

[deadsetred]

What gets me is that we spent all that money on 'doing a tottenham' when we couldve easily broke the bank for Di Maria or Falcao. Not the Liverpool way? Well sorry, but finishing mid table is not the Liverpool way either.

Spurs showed us what not to do, and we went and did it anyway.

[mkferdy]

We needed strength in depth and we've had shit injuries earlier on. I think the signing's we've made will come good on the whole (I cant wait to see Can have a run in the side) Who knows? Think though that the formation we're playing does not suit the players we currently have available.

I agree we needed to strengthen the squad over the summer. If it was me in charge I would of focused on players who could of played in the diamond formation which some of the signings seem to fit. Lambert and Balotelli just doesn't make sense.

I am also looking forward to seeing Can play but so you think he will play?  Can't help but feel as long as we stick to a 4-2-3-1 set up we will be seeing Gerrard Henderson/ Gerrard Allen.

[El Lobo]

What gets me is that we spent all that money on 'doing a tottenham' when we couldve easily broke the bank for Di Maria or Falcao. Not the Liverpool way? Well sorry, but finishing mid table is not the Liverpool way either.

Spurs showed us what not to do, and we went and did it anyway.

Recent history suggests otherwise.

[Nosss]

Think that's doing the lad a massive disservice. He's moving all across the back line, but the ball is being humped to him out wide and he's having to hold it up in positions and wait for mainly non-existent support to come.

Carra has just hit the nail on the head - where's the goals coming from? We're pedestrian in attack at best, although I think Lallana will make a huge difference, as will Allen and Can, but we need to have someone up there with Mario to take the load off.

I'm not having a go at him, and I don't think his work rate and amount of movement isn't a problem. I think he's wanting different service to what he's getting at the moment and a lot of the attack is wanting him in positions that he's not in. I reckon if it was Sturridge up there in place of him we'd look a lot better, but a lot of that is probably a familiarity issue.

[wz4jc3]

All these shite performances are just confirming what I have always believed in: one up front is not for me!

[McrRed]

One up front = none up front

[Redman0151]

One up front works perfectly fine when you have a midfield competent enough to control the game behind you, and build an attack.


We seem content to bypass our midfield + control and try to quickly move it into attack, that just leaves the lone striker being outnumbered and losing posession.

[mkferdy]

For me it's not just the lack of movement with Balotelli up top that's the issue it's the lack of forward runners from midfield too.

4-2-3-1 restricts Henderson, without his pressing and running beyond  the striker we lack options and we are too easy to defend against.

We are too reliant on the wise forwards producing something special or a set piece for a goal. We need to go back to the diamond or at least a 4-3-3 with a holding midfielder to free up Henderson. If that means we need to drop players then so be it.

[The Batman.]

I wouldn't mind one up top if it was the right players. Sturridge up top with Lallana/Coutinho/Sterling behind would be good in my opinion. Although Henderson would need a proper CM partner with energy like Lars Bender.

[Rob Dylan]

What gets me is that we spent all that money on 'doing a tottenham' when we couldve easily broke the bank for Di Maria or Falcao. Not the Liverpool way? Well sorry, but finishing mid table is not the Liverpool way either.

Spurs showed us what not to do, and we went and did it anyway.

Yeah, because it's so easy to sign these sort of players. Falcao didn't want to join us, in fact I doubt he really wanted to join United but he was desperate to leave Monaco and Madrid weren't interested, so he went for United at the last minute as they were the only club that would pay his wages. Similarly Di Maria didn't want to leave Madrid but was effectively forced out, by the time he was we'd already bought most of our players. We couldn't spend another £60m plus whatever wages he's on - that's if he would even have been willing to join us.

And the Spurs comparison is so lazy - they didn't really buy players to fill specific holes in the squad, and it looks like several of those players were not even chosen by the manager. And they still finished with only 3 points less than the season before. Our squad was paper thin -  we needed two new full-backs, at least one new centre back, more options in wide positions and at least two new strikers - what should we have done, just signed a couple of big names instead?

[mkferdy]

Personally I don't think the spurs comparison is a lazy one. Full backs and Lallana apart every other player doesn't really fit into the system and style we played last year.

We are now trying to shoehorn new players into a new system where there's a massive lack of cohesion.

I personally feel the comparisons are justified at the moment.

[LFCTikiTaka]

Personally I don't think the spurs comparison is a lazy one. Full backs and Lallana apart every other player doesn't really fit into the system and style we played last year.

We are now trying to shoehorn new players into a new system where there's a massive lack of cohesion.

I personally feel the comparisons are justified at the moment.

Then I hope we "do a Spurs" and end up finishing on 3 points less than the season before (because that's exactly what they did). I think we would all take 81 points right now

[JackWard33]

Personally I don't think the spurs comparison is a lazy one. Full backs and Lallana apart every other player doesn't really fit into the system and style we played last year.

We are now trying to shoehorn new players into a new system where there's a massive lack of cohesion.

I personally feel the comparisons are justified at the moment.

So apart from the full backs and Lallana.

That leaves:-
 Markovic who its impossible to judge yet given that he's 20 and started 4 games
Can - who does seem to have all the energy and technique you'd need to play for us
Lovren - who is a perfect CB for the way we want to play (can play a high line, is comfortable with the ball, plays on the front foot)
and
Balotelli - who is probably the only player your argument fits but who offers something different and may well form a really good partnership with Sturridge but we've only seen it once

On what basis are you drawing your conclusions again?!?

[KirkVanHouten]

So apart from the full backs and Lallana.

That leaves:-
 Markovic who its impossible to judge yet given that he's 20 and started 4 games
Can - who does seem to have all the energy and technique you'd need to play for us
Lovren - who is a perfect CB for the way we want to play (can play a high line, is comfortable with the ball, plays on the front foot)
and
Balotelli - who is probably the only player your argument fits but who offers something different and may well form a really good partnership with Sturridge but we've only seen it once

On what basis are you drawing your conclusions again?!?

You forgot Lambert who is exactly what he's talking about.

Signing Lovren really annoyed me. Not because I don't think he's a good player but because he went for 9 million the season before and we were linked to him, and had been for a few seasons. Instead we spent 18 million on Sakho and followed it up with buying Lovren to seemingly replace Mamadou. Then we let Agger go for 3 million. So we essentially spent 38 million when we could have spent 9. I thought our first choice pairing was going to be Sakho and Lovren but with Skrtel nailed on to play it makes absolutely no fucking sense.

[mkferdy]

So apart from the full backs and Lallana.

That leaves:-
 Markovic who its impossible to judge yet given that he's 20 and started 4 games
Can - who does seem to have all the energy and technique you'd need to play for us
Lovren - who is a perfect CB for the way we want to play (can play a high line, is comfortable with the ball, plays on the front foot)
and
Balotelli - who is probably the only player your argument fits but who offers something different and may well form a really good partnership with Sturridge but we've only seen it once

On what basis are you drawing your conclusions again?!?

I am seeing similarities between when Spurs spent a shit load to replace Bale improving the overall squad to us doing the same.

Spurs didn't sign bad players, just players who didn't seem suited to the way they were playing the previous season. They play 1 upfront and sign a striker is Soldado while seemingly being a good finisher relies a lot of service.

They signed two defensive midfielders in Paulinho and Capoule when they aready had Sandro, Dembele, Bentaleb etc

I am not saying we have signed poor players I don't think we have at all we have signed decent players but what I am questioning is the logic of some of these signings as some of them don't fit into the system we used last season.

Lovren is a good defender, he may well be an upgrade on Sakho but then why spend £18 million on Sakho only the season before. For me the money would of been better spent bringing in a right sided cb or a central midfielder where in my opinion we are weaker than left sided cb.

Again Markovic has a lot of potential, I thought he did alright last night, he will improve and could develop into a top player. However I have to ask was signing a wide player really needed when Lallana can also play there if we wanted to change things up given we were playing a diamond last year?

Balotelli and Lambert also seems odd to me very similar players did we really need two target men?

It seems to me the majority of the signings were with a 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 in mind which ok if that's how we are going tom play fine but to incorporate so many new players and changing the system during a champions league season where we will have a lot less time on the training field seems a risky strategy to me.

Factor in the comments from Rodgers during the summer saying we wont do a Spurs as all our players are being brought with with a certain profile that will fit into our system makes the striker signings all the more bizarre.

[mkferdy]

Then I hope we "do a Spurs" and end up finishing on 3 points less than the season before (because that's exactly what they did). I think we would all take 81 points right now

I would be delighted if we finished 3 points less than last season. Will happily do a spurs with regards to points total 

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

I don't think it is unrelated that our one good performance this season happened when we had Mario and Sturridge up top with Sterling just behind them.
Say what you want about our Italian but no defender fancies going 1-on-1 with him, any more than they want Sturridge running past them or Sterling dragging them out of position.
Once you make the opposition worried and focused on getting midfielders to help out their defenders then suddenly everything opens up all over the pitch and we start looking good.
Playing with 1 up top requires a much more functioning and coherent rest of the team. Fixing that would be better for our long term health, but right now we need some points and form before we start applying insane pressure on a team not ready for it and potentially setting us back to a worse situation than Rodgers walked in on.

[rkgriffin]

I think one of the biggest differences between this year and last year (other than Luis) is that teams have figured out that they can just sit on Gerrard in his new role.  He doesn't have the legs to get away from his mark and when we lose the ball his mark is able to get away from him.  Only way to combat this is play him once a week like last year so he can hopefully run.  Then maybe it doesn't matter if we play one up top.

It will be interesting this week since surely Gerrard has to rest.  Bring in Lucas and at least he won't be man marked.

[Redwhiteandnotblue]

4-2-3-1, and a defensive 4-2-3-1 at that, is a completely understandable reaction from the management to the defence being so porous. The trouble is we've gone for 4-2-3-1 without effective pressing which negates the defensive benefit that the two sitting in front of the defence should offer. Additionally, our new full backs are suited to the diamond and maybe aren't suited to 4-2-3-1?

The loss of Allen and Can to injury and the loss of form of Coutinho is far more debilitating to our game than the loss of Sturridge in my opinion; one up front is not the issue - the lack of effective pressing, the seeming lack of energy about our play, the drop in the quality of choice and execution of our passing - none of these can be laid at the door of "one up front".

Blaming our performances on "one up front" is sloppy thinking and dare I say it tabloid thinking.
It fails to recognise that there are issues right through the team at the moment - yes, there are issues up front, but frankly there are issues all over the pitch and I suspect that if those issues were addressed then we would not be complaining about the one up front.

[D_Tricolor]

One up top is fine, playing two with the players we have available at the moment means a 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Henderson in the middle.  We did that against Aston Villa last Jan and got dominated.

It’s not the formation that’s causing the problems, it’s a tweak in tactics (since when did we start crossing all the time) and too many new faces.

Calm down, we’ll beat West Brom on the weekend – probably with one up top – then we’ve got a nice break to sort our shit out.